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Tankhappy
16-10-2012, 20:13
What is your consensus of the most powerful HQ in the game? Can be normal IC's or SC's

I'm not worried about point for point ratio's and points cost to what you get ratios, just overall effectiveness through gameplay, which could be for support, close combat or ranged, or a combination of all. I'm not talking about how useful they are because of things they unlock as in Plague Marines, just how powerful they are by their own merit.

(Solo models only, I'm not talking about anything with bodyguards or combinations of other HQ's or attachments i.e. -hive guard, Farsight + Bodyguards, etc.)

I haven't played against a wide range of opponents and most of what I hear is on the web. So far these are some powerful HQ choices from just what little knowledge I have.

Abaddon
Daemon Prince
Epidemius
Typhus
Kairos Fateweaver
Vulkan He’stan
Mephiston
Commander Dante
Njal Stormcaller
Logan Grimnar
Ghazzy Thrakka
Big Mek with KFF simply based on effectiveness
Necron Lord that can turn your IC against you (Old Zogwart fits with this, albeit random, can turn IC's into squigs)
Eldrad Ulthran
Njal Stormcaller
Logan Grimnar
Swarmlord
Vulkan He’stan

Radium
16-10-2012, 20:16
I'm going to say Eldrad. Amazing force multiplier, and still able to hold his own in combat against most targets (not to mention ignoring all armour saves, which is really rare these days).

KharnTheBetrayer01
16-10-2012, 20:18
No love for Lysander? One of the few who can reliably stand against only of the above. His offense isn't quite the power that the others have, but very very few are as tough as him.

Terabyt3
16-10-2012, 20:36
Eldrad gets my vote too. With fortune a 3++ and a wound on 2's ignores armour weapon he's a bane in cc. Ontop of access to divination if you swing that way. If he had eternal warrior this question wouldn't need to be asked lol.

druchii
16-10-2012, 21:05
Fateweaver. He alone makes an entire codex playable (without resorting to grot-bomb tactical cheesery).

d

Konovalev
16-10-2012, 21:28
I'd add Nemesor Vandrekh for his ability to grant and remove USR's, and the phased reinforcement rules he has. And Kaldor Draigo for the toughness, and psychic powers.

Minsc
16-10-2012, 21:45
No love for Lysander? One of the few who can reliably stand against only of the above. His offense isn't quite the power that the others have, but very very few are as tough as him.

There is no point including him, because there are other IC's who also are infantry, but much harder to kill than him, while being more killy themselves. (Draigo for instance.)

Since I can't give credit for only one character, my vote is for Kairos Fateweaver for support and Abaddon/Draigo for tanky killingmachine. Swarmlord is killy, but isn't EW and got no IV outside close combat.

Navar
16-10-2012, 21:48
I am a bit biased being a huge fan of Nurgle, but I have to go with:

Scabeiathrax the Bloated, Papa G'aap, Lord of the Blighted Pit, Maggotspore, The Wind of Nurgle.

He is pretty great, and I suspect he will be updated to have it will not die.

I would put Scabeiathrax against any of the above HQ choices any day of the week (and maybe all of them.)

Minsc
16-10-2012, 21:51
I am a bit biased being a huge fan of Nurgle, but I have to go with:

Scabeiathrax the Bloated, Papa G'aap, Lord of the Blighted Pit, Maggotspore, The Wind of Nurgle.

He is pretty great, and I suspect he will be updated to have it will not die.

I would put Scabeiathrax against any of the above HQ choices any day of the week (and maybe all of them.)

Judging my the OP's examples, I'm fairly sure we're talking regular HQ's here, not Forgeworld.

Rated_lexxx
16-10-2012, 21:51
are we talking about best HQ in general, or in specif areas such as CC. Like eldrad is great HQ for everything he does, but is not the best in CC

Navar
16-10-2012, 22:00
Judging my the OP's examples, I'm fairly sure we're talking regular HQ's here, not Forgeworld.

He didn't say anything about "regular" HQs (whatever that means.) I am giving my opinion.

Papa G'aap For the Win.

155038

wyvirn
16-10-2012, 22:01
Swarmlord with biomancy. He'll almost always have Iron Arm or Warp Speed, usually both. With just endurance, 5 T6 wounds and a 4++ is tough to kill.And he's pretty killy to boot!

agurus1
16-10-2012, 22:13
Mephiston I think should be lower down on that list. His weapon is only AP3 now, and with no Invuln and unable to join units he is incredibly vulnerable to shooting. Just had a game the other day, and he was shot to death without killing a single model.

I think the ultimate Characters must have at least 4 of 5 specific things:

Armour save (2+, or 3+ at the least, preferably the former)
Invuln save (3+, or 4+ at the least)
Good T value 5+ or Eternal Warrior (combined with good W value 3-4)
Good S value 5+
Low AP attacks which go preferably at I value (this really separates the men from the boys, with AP2 being best) *honestly this is one of the most important, if you can strike first at AP2 and kill off your opponent, you don't need to be tough or have eternal warrior, a good save, ect...

If you take all of these into account, we have very few characters that are good duelists 1v1 actually:
Abbadon (tough, can switch up S, AP, and Number of attack, Eternal Warrior, T5, 2+/4++) Basically as good as you can get in one package
(All MC Ch -Daemon Princes*, Greater Daemons*, Swarmlords --*only problem being low invulns*)
Vect (very good duelist, 2++, high I and 2+ to wound and Ignores armour, means a good chance of killing you first before you can strike)
Prince Yriel (good offence, ignores all armour, wounds on 2+, high I)

Below these go a lot of other Characters who either go last, have AP3, or not enough base attacks to kill of one of the above characters reliably before the characters pop them. Only thing I will give you is that Draigo is obviously favored in a duel against Daemonic opponents.

daemonprinceyourself
16-10-2012, 22:16
Lysander gets my vote. He can walk through tanks like they are nothing and take a ridiculous amount of punishment before going down. And he is no slouch against normal infantry. He could take on Draigo.

Bonzai
16-10-2012, 22:16
Eldrad is pretty high up there, as well as Far Seers for normal HQ's. He can shut down an entire tables worth of psychic powers. That in and of it's self is amazing for a simple piece of wargear. Then throw in Fortune and the rest of his powers, and the window dressing, and it's easy to see why he is the Eldar Go too guy.

Kairos is also a REALLY good choice.

The old Deciever rules were pretty darn amazing as well.

Vulkan is a force multiplyer, making an otherwise average vanilla marine codex a tier or two higher than it would otherwise be.

agurus1
16-10-2012, 22:21
To me Lysander has too few attacks and is going last to boot, so against the number of AP2 attacks other characters can pump out at I, he doesn't stand a reliable chance against some of the more uber characters. Not to mention some like the Swarm Lord makes him re-roll successful Invul saves right?

agurus1
16-10-2012, 22:22
Eldrad as well, 1v1 obviously isn't a "good" choice either. Sure psychic powers may help him out, but if a heavy hitter gets into CC with him it will be over pretty fast.

ColShaw
16-10-2012, 22:25
Eldrad for flexibility.

IrishDelinquent
16-10-2012, 22:50
Support: Tie between Eldrad and Kairos. Kairos is a little bulkier than Eldrad, but he only provides a small bubble of benefit (what a bubble it is, though). Eldrad, meanwhile, turns the mediocre Eldar units into killing machines or tanky horrors, and is the lynchpin of many a deathstar. He's also more cost effective compared to two standard Farseers (although he can still die to massed S6+ attacks).

Tank: Based purely on survivability, Ghazkull Thraka and Lysander come to mind. Thraka is only really good for the Waaagh!! game turn, but when he Waaagh!!'s, he's not going down easily. Lysander has 4 EW wounds protected by a 2+/3++.....good luck. Also, mention has to go to the standard Necron Overlords, who have 2+/3++, T5, and supped-up Reanimation Protocols. And remember Wolf Lords can build a scary tank: 2+/3++ T5 on Twolf, and Saga of the Bear means they're not going down without a lot of effort. Budget tank for me is Vulkan, who is tough in addition to his crazy good Chapter Tactics.

Close Combat: Draigo. It's very, very hard to top this utter bastard. Not only is he tough, he's got a monster weapon skill, great strength, nice number of attacks, a force sword (which gets better against a ton of models) and great initiative. Abaddon and Kharn come close, but Draigo still scares me. Also have become rather fond of Lucius, who hit the jack pot in the new codex in my opinion. He should chew through any challenger outside of a tanky instant death dealer.

Vaktathi
16-10-2012, 23:02
Lysander gets my vote. He can walk through tanks like they are nothing To be fair, in 6th ed, anything with a pulse does. :p

agurus1
16-10-2012, 23:10
Close Combat: Draigo. It's very, very hard to top this utter bastard. Not only is he tough, he's got a monster weapon skill, great strength, nice number of attacks, a force sword (which gets better against a ton of models) and great initiative. Abaddon and Kharn come close, but Draigo still scares me. Also have become rather fond of Lucius, who hit the jack pot in the new codex in my opinion. He should chew through any challenger outside of a tanky instant death dealer.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Titan sword NOT a force weapon?

jifel
16-10-2012, 23:23
Titan Sword is a force weapon I thought, but also to my knowledge is only Ap. 3... if you lose combat to a Terminator youre not a good CC HQ. Draigo isnt scary in 6th...

Id say Coteaz and Eldrad are tops. Then, Id say the Flying Hive Tyrant is very useful when uses right. He's a bit fragile though, and pron to being killed if not used right. Otherwise? Hard to go wrong with a Chaos Librarian/GK libby.

Freman Bloodglaive
16-10-2012, 23:30
The Titan Sword is a force sword, it is not a Nemesis Force Sword (so it doesn't boost him to a 2++ in combat).

Until they FAQ him with AP2 Draigo isn't as good in combat as he used to be. 2+ saves give a fairly good chance of his opponent not dying, and strength 5 (10 against daemons and psykers) means that he's wounding tougher models on 4s or 5s.

Lysander may lack attacks, meaning that against tougher models he'll take 2 or more turns to kill them, while potentially an opponent could kill him in one turn (Swarmlord is nasty) however he's tougher than Calgar, and he does have strength 10 attacks, so if they land they make a bit of a mess.

Swarmlord is one of the best units in close combat, ignoring armour and re-rolling successful invulnerables with a lot of high WS high S attacks.

Of course an 80 point Inquisitor with terminator armour and a psycannon could potentially shoot him to death before combat was joined.

Indeed, said Inquisitor could (with luck) kill any of the melee characters before they could get into assault. I guess that makes him the most powerful HQ in the game.

EDIT: Vulkan is not powerful in himself, but he is powerful for what he brings to your army.

dOOHICKY
16-10-2012, 23:39
If we are chatting 1v1 then a daemon prince with a murdersword has to be up there.. S10... Ap1... Instant Death (So even one shots T6 +)

For all round killyness (ie different types of enemies) Typhus is hard to look past. Although I1 it is a S6 AP2 FORCE Daemon weapon and he has the toughness to take a hit. Also he can annihilate hordes with ease through his Destroyer Hive/Psychic powers. His ONLY weakness is against walkers really.

marneus-KARLgar
16-10-2012, 23:45
I miss Coteaz in your list. Vulkan isn't so powerful because there is nothing in C:SM which deserves a boost. Space Marines are bad- even with Vulkan.
So, add the following HQs:
-Sathonyx
-Coteaz
-Straken
-Mordrak (because he is so much better than Draigo)

mK

DJ3
16-10-2012, 23:49
Any answer that isn't Fateweaver is wrong.

He's not only the most effective in terms of tactics/force multiplying factors, he'd also win a straight fight against any of these, barring only the Swarmlord and potentially Abaddon.

Nobody else gets near causing enough wounds prior to the odds favoring them having been turned into a Chaos Spawn.

Gaargod
16-10-2012, 23:58
Shame about the price thing. Then Baron Sathonyx laughs at your Abbadon. That dude is insanely underpriced. I'd take him at 50pts more, happily enough.


Swarmlord is a killy death machine, but the lack of EW and no IV outside of combat is crippling. If he had a 2+, then maybe - he'd avoid missile spam and most force weapons (excepting axes) would ping off him. Also, he's really overpriced!

marneus-KARLgar
17-10-2012, 00:01
Any answer that isn't Fateweaver is wrong.

He's not only the most effective in terms of tactics/force multiplying factors, he'd also win a straight fight against any of these, barring only the Swarmlord and potentially Abaddon.

Nobody else gets near causing enough wounds prior to the odds favoring them having been turned into a Chaos Spawn. Fateweaver is NOT the best HQ! No chance, that he survives one turn against IG with battle-psykers. In addition, he costs 333pts- you almost get Coteaz, Sathonyx and Straken for the same cost ;)

Chem-Dog
17-10-2012, 00:38
Judging my the OP's examples, I'm fairly sure we're talking regular HQ's here, not Forgeworld.

If we weren't I'm sure Horus and Angron would be in the running....



To me Lysander has too few attacks and is going last to boot

Which is an issue for precisely one round of combat, the first one, after which Concussive brings you down to striking simultaneously with Mr 1000 year holiday. Where is your high initiative now?! :p
If you can reliably take him out in the first round, fine otherwise you're gonna struggle.


I'm going to give a shout out to Skulltaker, riding his Chariot.
Rends on a 4+ making a mockery of 2+ saves. Gains a 2+ Inv against Psychic Powers and Force Weapons effectively neutering any Psyker 1-on-1. EW & 4 wounds, 5 attacks.
Not the best necessarily, but no slouch and only 0.5 of an HQ slot.

Schismotive
17-10-2012, 01:20
My vote goes for IG company commander; amazing utility. Vulkan, Pedro, and Fateweaver would be some more of my favorites

agurus1
17-10-2012, 02:01
If I was going to go for a personal favorite (with no points limit) I would go with a Daemon Prince with Power Armour, Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, and the Black Mace, with 2 extra Mastery Levels, Ichor Blood, Spell & Combat Familiar, and Gift of Mutation. Just a purely awesome pile of "mess you up". Not to mention that the buff spells it can get can tip the balance in its favor over many other opponents, and removing any models on a failed toughness test is much better than ID (since you can cap the EW models).

marneus-KARLgar
17-10-2012, 02:08
My vote goes for IG company commander; amazing utility. Vulkan, Pedro, and Fateweaver would be some more of my favorites Do you mean Pedro Kantor? He is the most powerful HQ? Really? In my opinion he's just a little better than a normal captain who is the high point of inefficieny.

Elios Harg
17-10-2012, 02:36
Going with the rules of the original post, namely points not mattering, I'd have to rank ML3 Flying Daemon Princes up there. No mark, give him a black mace and the brand of whatchamacallit and he'll be devastating. At ML3, he has a great chance of rolling Iron Arm to eliminate the ID factor as well.

Gig
17-10-2012, 02:43
The Daemon Prince has to be upgraded to be aligned to one of the four chaos gods it isn't optional.

Schismotive
17-10-2012, 06:04
Do you mean Pedro Kantor? He is the most powerful HQ? Really? In my opinion he's just a little better than a normal captain who is the high point of inefficieny.

I said company command might be the most powerful, because I think utility is much more important than CC ability. So I mentioned Vulkan, Pedro and Fateweaver as other HQs I think have great utility. Is he good in CC? Not really no, but he makes sternguard scoring units which is Insane in this edition!! Vulkan makes meltas twin linked which is much more useful than anything he'll ever do in CC; likewise for fateweaver who makes daemons very hard to kill.

AlphariusOmegon20
17-10-2012, 08:11
EDIT: Vulkan is not powerful in himself, but he is powerful for what he brings to your army.

Wait, what? :confused:

having a 2+/3++ save, which is the best in the game, makes him survivable against most any weapon. If he fires overwatch, He'll light you up with D3 S5 templates when you charge him. And in CC, he carries a Mastercrafted Relic blade, which goes at I5, is S6 AP3. and re-rolls one of his attacks every fight phase. That he twinlinks every flamer and Melta in his army is just icing on the cake.

Vulkan's definitely the sleeper of the bunch and should really be ranked up in the top 5.

Odyne
17-10-2012, 08:30
What about the unkillable St.Celestine?The best objective denial unit in the game.She always comes back on a 4+ with D3 wounds in the exact spot she died and can then move shoot and assault when she does.She benefits from any act of faith from any unit she joins,has a heavy flamer,power sword that always wounds on 4+,jump pack and 2+ 4+armour save and i know it's not relevant for this discussion but only 115 pts.I have rolled up many a flank with her and caused no end of problems for the enemy.

BlackJuju
17-10-2012, 08:57
The Swarmlord
Kairos Fateweaver
Nemesor Zahndrekh with Vargard Obyron as bodyguard.

End of story.

Flikre213
17-10-2012, 09:25
A fully kitted out Necron Overlord, sempiternal weave and phase shifter giving a 2+, 3++ save, warscythe taking its strength up to 7, mindshackle scarabs, tacyon arrow giving a S10 AP1 unlimited range shot and a resurrection orb making its ever living roll a 4+.

Whats not to like?

TheDungen
17-10-2012, 11:01
the old c'tan?

Latro_
17-10-2012, 11:13
depends what powerful means, its quite subjective when you pair it with the rest of your list.

ad3z10
17-10-2012, 12:27
All you people crying out for Draigo, have you seen what happens when he comes across a Bloodthirster or anything with a 2+ save?

marneus-KARLgar
17-10-2012, 12:30
I said company command might be the most powerful, because I think utility is much more important than CC ability. So I mentioned Vulkan, Pedro and Fateweaver as other HQs I think have great utility. Is he good in CC? Not really no, but he makes sternguard scoring units which is Insane in this edition!! Vulkan makes meltas twin linked which is much more useful than anything he'll ever do in CC; likewise for fateweaver who makes daemons very hard to kill. The fact is: P.Kantor makes sternguard scoring units but NOT troops! So you have at least 2 tactical squads. But these squads aren't very good, so you need something efficient and robust. Unfortunately the Sternguard aren't efficient and robust enough to win a match. They have special ammo and the option taking many special-weapons but if you compare them with Purifiers and Immortals you would agree (I'm sure!).

Cheeslord
17-10-2012, 12:48
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a fully kitted out Necron Overlord yet...

<edit> - sorry, Flickre did ... I missed it somehow ...

Strengths:
2+/3++
MSS give a 50% chance of even the best opponent doing nothing but hitting himself repeatedly in the face
About the best gun in the game (for 1 shot! but if you get 1 turn before getting stuck in and don't feel like running...)
Grants a Support ability (relentless)
Can hide in squads and in transports (i.e. he can get good support from the rest of his army)
4+++ "save" against most things (and once he's knocked down the enemy can't touch him till he pops back up again)
S5/T5
Main weapon strikes at I for AP2, S7 Armourbane
Tesseract labyrinth can slay the mightiest warrior with 1 lucky roll (and is one of the few attacks that bypasses invulnerable saves so might plausibly zap Fateweaver or someone with a mattWard stave..


Weaknesses:
Only 3 wounds and no EW mean he can't take too much abuse and is vulnerable to force weapons and S10 (if it gets through his saves and RP of course), as well as saturation fire. This is worse now all MCs can Smash for S10 AP2 at I>2...
6th edition rules made his support ability less good.
Unless supported, not particularly mobile
WS4, BS4 and A3 below average for a powerful leader.
I2 makes him vulnerable to I-test powers and any AP2 weapons that can strike at I (which may crop up if he is toe-to-toeing it with other uber-HQs)
Not well suited to cutting through hordes.
Not fearless.

Ulfrik
17-10-2012, 12:59
What about Avatar?


You should also take into account the points cost.

Minsc
17-10-2012, 13:12
Ulfrik, the OP wrote this:


I'm not worried about point for point ratio's and points cost to what you get ratios, just overall effectiveness through gameplay, which could be for support, close combat or ranged, or a combination of all. I'm not talking about how useful they are because of things they unlock as in Plague Marines, just how powerful they are by their own merit.

The Avatar essentially lives and dies with his WS10. He's great at slaughtering marines, but anything with EW/T6+ (to prevent Smash ID.) that hits on 4+ and wounds on 5+ or better will eventually wear him down.
He has to few attacks to be a threat in a straight-out slaughterfest, and no tricks up his sleeve.

I'll admit that he's not bad if you take his pointcost into consideration though.

Max_Killfactor
17-10-2012, 13:19
Kairos wins. He is easily the MVP of 40k.

If you take points cost into consideration, you can make a case for others (Eldrad, Baron, Rambo..), but without worrying about points, it's Fateweaver.

marneus-KARLgar
17-10-2012, 13:29
Kairos wins. He is easily the MVP of 40k.

If you take points cost into consideration, you can make a case for others (Eldrad, Baron, Rambo..), but without worrying about points, it's Fateweaver. You cannot compare any characters by ignoring the points cost! ;)

Weazel
17-10-2012, 13:58
Logan Grimnar is pretty tough. He could use one more wound maybe. Eldrad with his rerollable 3++ is PAINFUL to wound, but he's toast with one successful S6+ wound.

And a fully kitted Necron Overlord is a powerhouse obviously.

Khorneguy
17-10-2012, 14:14
If forgeworld's included, my vote is for Horus. He even makes other Primarchs look like amateurs

Navar
17-10-2012, 14:15
If we weren't I'm sure Horus and Angron would be in the running....

This is a good point.

I still think that Scabeiathrax the Bloated is head and shoulders above the rest, but Horus and Angron are also pretty darn killy.

Also (again I am biased) I think that anyone will struggle to kill Mortarion in a 2-3,000 point game because T 7, 7 wounds, 2+/4++, FNP, and rerollable It Will Not die, combined with unlimited Phospex bombs and a S 7 ID melee weapon with his WS 7 make him pretty awesome.

vlad78
17-10-2012, 14:35
The Titan Sword is a force sword, it is not a Nemesis Force Sword (so it doesn't boost him to a 2++ in combat).

Until they FAQ him with AP2 Draigo isn't as good in combat as he used to be. 2+ saves give a fairly good chance of his opponent not dying, and strength 5 (10 against daemons and psykers) means that he's wounding tougher models on 4s or 5s.

Lysander may lack attacks, meaning that against tougher models he'll take 2 or more turns to kill them, while potentially an opponent could kill him in one turn (Swarmlord is nasty) however he's tougher than Calgar, and he does have strength 10 attacks, so if they land they make a bit of a mess.

Swarmlord is one of the best units in close combat, ignoring armour and re-rolling successful invulnerables with a lot of high WS high S attacks.

Of course an 80 point Inquisitor with terminator armour and a psycannon could potentially shoot him to death before combat was joined.

Indeed, said Inquisitor could (with luck) kill any of the melee characters before they could get into assault. I guess that makes him the most powerful HQ in the game.

EDIT: Vulkan is not powerful in himself, but he is powerful for what he brings to your army.

I totally agree about Lysander, but he has some weaknesses, his toughness is too low, he can be dropped by flashlights with a little bad luck. If he had even toughness 5, it would be a different story. And he really dislikes being drowned in tons of fearless cheap bodies. Because he has too few attacks. He doesn't have a secondary weapon that would make him efficient against hordes.

But on he other hand, he also makes sternguards very efficient with his bolter drill against all GEK and even against MEK even in overwatch. Rapid fire + sternguard ammunitions + Lysander reroll to hit is incredibly efficient.

Furthermore he gives his resilience to the sternguards by being in front.

If you add some combi weapons to the mix, this very costly unit can break the enemy line by itself when arriving in drop pods. I broke the back of several armies first or second turn with him.

But this will be no match for hings like cron air. The sternguard have no bolter armor piercing rounds against vehicles.

Solonor
17-10-2012, 14:55
Logan Grimnar is pretty tough. He could use one more wound maybe. Eldrad with his rerollable 3++ is PAINFUL to wound, but he's toast with one successful S6+ wound.

And a fully kitted Necron Overlord is a powerhouse obviously.

I'm almost certain Eldrad has T4, i think this discussion is evolving to a "who is the best close combat monster" has opposed to the OP question of who is the most powerfull HQ regarding the impact he has in the game, be it by shooting, ccombat, support. Taking that into consideration i think Eldrad his one of the top contenders.

Max_Killfactor
17-10-2012, 15:54
You cannot compare any characters by ignoring the points cost! ;)

I agree, but...



I'm not worried about point for point ratio's and points cost to what you get ratios, just overall effectiveness through gameplay, which could be for support, close combat or ranged, or a combination of all. I'm not talking about how useful they are because of things they unlock as in Plague Marines, just how powerful they are by their own merit.


So the OP didn't seem too concerned with points.

Konovalev
17-10-2012, 16:44
All you people crying out for Draigo, have you seen what happens when he comes across a Bloodthirster or anything with a 2+ save?

The Bloodthirster can't grant units in its army counter-attack, or make non-scoring units scoring

youngsamwise
17-10-2012, 19:50
I am going to have to put in a vote for Epidemus in sixth edition.

In fifth edition he was awful and provided nearly nothing of value (you couldn't build a tally vs 2000 pts. of vehicles.) I played him, lost 60-70% of my games, and just tried to hold my head high because I played a daemon army that didn't resort to un-fluffy cheese-dickery.

In sixth edition, I can now table nearly any opponent on any given day with an army built purely on fluff. How many people can say that their 110 pt HQ delivers those kinds of results?

druchii
17-10-2012, 21:08
I am going to have to put in a vote for Epidemus in sixth edition.

In fifth edition he was awful and provided nearly nothing of value (you couldn't build a tally vs 2000 pts. of vehicles.) I played him, lost 60-70% of my games, and just tried to hold my head high because I played a daemon army that didn't resort to un-fluffy cheese-dickery.

In sixth edition, I can now table nearly any opponent on any given day with an army built purely on fluff. How many people can say that their 110 pt HQ delivers those kinds of results?

I'm not sure the grot bomb is any shape or form of fluffy. ;)

d

Panzerella
17-10-2012, 21:09
I am going to have to put in a vote for Epidemus in sixth edition.

In fifth edition he was awful and provided nearly nothing of value (you couldn't build a tally vs 2000 pts. of vehicles.) I played him, lost 60-70% of my games, and just tried to hold my head high because I played a daemon army that didn't resort to un-fluffy cheese-dickery.

In sixth edition, I can now table nearly any opponent on any given day with an army built purely on fluff. How many people can say that their 110 pt HQ delivers those kinds of results?

Use Epi tally with demon only, or with CSM allies?

RanaldLoec
17-10-2012, 22:25
Old Zogwort

2+ armour save, 3+ invun, eternal warrior, feel no pain, toughness 10, yeah he don't care, he blinks your a squig.

If nothing else its a great way to lay low a powerful opponent.

Made even more fun as you get to replace said epic model with a diminutive confused looking squig. model

youngsamwise
17-10-2012, 22:53
@panzeralla

Ork allies. A big mek sacrifices a unit of grots to Nurgle via Aura of Decay.
CSM allies. Typhus sacrifices a unit of cultists to Nurgle via Destroyer Hive.

Either way, if you get Epi on the table turn 1, you can nearly guarantee a full tally by turn 2.



@druchii

155102

Ork. Mark of Nurgle. Daemonhunters know about them, why don't you?

Call it cheese if you like, but it's still fluffy. Why WOULDN'T orks sacrifice grots to a chaos god? Why wouldn't Typhus kill a bunch of cultists to make Papa proud?

Schismotive
17-10-2012, 23:43
The fact is: P.Kantor makes sternguard scoring units but NOT troops! So you have at least 2 tactical squads. But these squads aren't very good, so you need something efficient and robust. Unfortunately the Sternguard aren't efficient and robust enough to win a match. They have special ammo and the option taking many special-weapons but if you compare them with Purifiers and Immortals you would agree (I'm sure!).

Of course, but comparing sternguard to purifiers or immortals is hardly fair... but you're correct there. I know Pedro's sternguard don't become troops, but scoring is good enough really. Anything that can hold an objective is valuable in 6th ed.

Ulrig
18-10-2012, 00:15
I would of said Ghaz before the changes to fleet. But in Close combat he still owns everything you can table. 7 Str 10 AP2 attacks on the turn of a charge, 2+, 5++ (2++ for two turns when whaaghed)

FashaTheDog
18-10-2012, 02:42
Assuming Forgeworld is allowed in the running, the Daemon Lord Zarakynel is probably the HQ I would vote for as s/he ignores both armor and invulnerable saves.

Chem-Dog
18-10-2012, 05:33
Call it cheese if you like, but it's still fluffy. Why WOULDN'T orks sacrifice grots to a chaos god? Why wouldn't Typhus kill a bunch of cultists to make Papa proud?

Not JUST a river in Egypt....;)

Isn't AoD a shooting attack and therefore unable to target friendly models (The issue came up a lot back when the Codex was new, re "pushy pavane")? Allied models, at the very least, are considered Enemies you can't shoot at....

OgreBattle
18-10-2012, 05:54
This is a good point.

I still think that Scabeiathrax the Bloated is head and shoulders above the rest, but Horus and Angron are also pretty darn killy.

Also (again I am biased) I think that anyone will struggle to kill Mortarion in a 2-3,000 point game because T 7, 7 wounds, 2+/4++, FNP, and rerollable It Will Not die, combined with unlimited Phospex bombs and a S 7 ID melee weapon with his WS 7 make him pretty awesome.

Is he immune from being turned into a squig by that ork guy?


So all of these guys listed, how many of them can resist Old Zogwort squigging them?

druchii
18-10-2012, 06:14
@panzeralla

Ork allies. A big mek sacrifices a unit of grots to Nurgle via Aura of Decay.
CSM allies. Typhus sacrifices a unit of cultists to Nurgle via Destroyer Hive.

Either way, if you get Epi on the table turn 1, you can nearly guarantee a full tally by turn 2.



@druchii

155102

Ork. Mark of Nurgle. Daemonhunters know about them, why don't you?

Call it cheese if you like, but it's still fluffy. Why WOULDN'T orks sacrifice grots to a chaos god? Why wouldn't Typhus kill a bunch of cultists to make Papa proud?

Yeah they're hanging out with Squats, Zoats and the Fimir and other retconned awful fluff.

Demonhunters don't exist anymore, and neither does their janky codex. I thought you knew?

Why would they? They get absolutely 0 benefit from it, it doesn't make them any fightier, nor louder, nor bigger.

Typhus, on the other hand, would in a moment. Now THAT's fluffy.

Good try though, call it what it is. Still doesn't make Epi any more "powerful" than someone like Vulkan or Pedro.

d

Yaro
18-10-2012, 06:22
Close Combat: Draigo. It's very, very hard to top this utter bastard. Not only is he tough, he's got a monster weapon skill, great strength, nice number of attacks, a force sword (which gets better against a ton of models) and great initiative. Abaddon and Kharn come close, but Draigo still scares me. Also have become rather fond of Lucius, who hit the jack pot in the new codex in my opinion. He should chew through any challenger outside of a tanky instant death dealer.

Abaddon kills Draigo 9 times out of 10.

Ulrig
18-10-2012, 06:45
Is he immune from being turned into a squig by that ork guy?


So all of these guys listed, how many of them can resist Old Zogwort squigging them?

Zog can squig ANY IC.

Jackal_Strain
18-10-2012, 13:45
Gargantuan creatures are immune to psychic powers that doesn'y have a S value. Is that Ork oldguy a psyker?

Depulsor
18-10-2012, 13:58
Abaddon kills Draigo 9 times out of 10.

Ah...yes, didnt 6th make his attacks ap3? On that ocasion.... I dont think anyting that doesnt have AP2 should be on that list really.

Navar
18-10-2012, 14:40
Is he immune from being turned into a squig by that ork guy?


So all of these guys listed, how many of them can resist Old Zogwort squigging them?


Zog can squig ANY IC.

No he can't. Scabeiathrax the Bloated laughs at Zog. Simple curses can't hope to do anything to harm the Lord of the Blighted Pit.

And Mortarion can ignore it on a 4+.

Toadius80
18-10-2012, 14:53
Dante is way to high on that list. Tycho should be there someplace. Decent WS,I,S&A all at ap 2 with a 2+/4+ save. DC version better.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Kevlar
18-10-2012, 16:12
Maybe this should be a poll.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
18-10-2012, 16:47
What about the unkillable St.Celestine?The best objective denial unit in the game.She always comes back on a 4+ with D3 wounds in the exact spot she died and can then move shoot and assault when she does.She benefits from any act of faith from any unit she joins,has a heavy flamer,power sword that always wounds on 4+,jump pack and 2+ 4+armour save and i know it's not relevant for this discussion but only 115 pts.I have rolled up many a flank with her and caused no end of problems for the enemy.
Forgot to mention I7 and CC7.

Is he immune from being turned into a squig by that ork guy?
Depends on the wording. I never read that rule, but if it says “removed from play”, then the living saint can. And eventually will, if you give her enough time. And then will kick the ass of every other IC mentioned on this thread until they die. Might take a while, but who's in a hurry anyway ?

Navar
18-10-2012, 17:21
Forgot to mention I7 and CC7.

Depends on the wording. I never read that rule, but if it says “removed from play”, then the living saint can. And eventually will, if you give her enough time. And then will kick the ass of every other IC mentioned on this thread until they die. Might take a while, but who's in a hurry anyway ?

The squig replaces the model. And the Maggotspore (given enough time) would just make sure Celestine was turned into a chaos spawn.

popisdead
18-10-2012, 20:39
Tank: Based purely on survivability, Ghazkull Thraka and Lysander come to mind. Thraka is only really good for the Waaagh!! game turn, but when he Waaagh!!'s, he's not going down easily.

I was wondering when Ghaz would pop up.

His Waaagh is great because it's a valuable defensive mechanism in the enemies shooting phase. The only problem is he's 100 points more than a Regular warboss in MA so is his 2+ Inv and Waaagh worth that cost?

Vlad Urkana
18-10-2012, 22:24
If we are including the Apoc-only HQ's like Papa G'aap, I would say that An'ggrath the Unbound would take just about any other HQ out there. Up to 13 WS 10 S 10 AP 2 and D3 S 10 HoW attacks from as far as 42" away. He may only be I 5, but not much that strikes before him will eat through 8 T8 wounds with a 2+/4+. Add in that the only psychic powers that can touch him are ones with a defined S value which he can then use his 2+ DtW to nullify, and you have a very killy, very resilient HQ.

youngsamwise
18-10-2012, 22:30
Not JUST a river in Egypt....;)

Hey, I am the first one to point out that Fatecrusher was cheese, as is Fatescreamer, so don't mistake me for someone that can't distinguish what good cheese may look like. But you can't claim that a guy sacrificing his pawns for the blessings of his god isn't exactly how you expect things to work in the fluff. From the astonomican to a grot prod.



Yeah they're hanging out with Squats, Zoats and the Fimir and other retconned awful fluff.

Demonhunters don't exist anymore, and neither does their janky codex. I thought you knew?

Why would they? They get absolutely 0 benefit from it, it doesn't make them any fightier, nor louder, nor bigger.

Typhus, on the other hand, would in a moment. Now THAT's fluffy.

Good try though, call it what it is. Still doesn't make Epi any more "powerful" than someone like Vulkan or Pedro.

d

Sorry, I was treating it as a "pics or it didn't happen" kind of challenge, not a "well that was retconned so pretend it didn't happen" kind of irrefutable statement.

As for losing the demonhunters fluff, wasn't the guy responsible for changing their fluff also responsible for this idea that orks were created to fight tomb kings in space? Isn't he responsible for Kaldor Draigo's fluff? And grey knights of khorne? And necron/blood angel wonder twin powers? And all the sad Astartes that didn't get to be Ultramarines? Yeah, guess I should just be a loyal GW fan and pretend it never happened then...

Why would they worship Nurgle? Because he makes dem tuffur and killiur and skariur and strongur and biggur? The meks get access to stuff from the Soul Forge so possibly even shootier. As I said before, why WOULDN'T they want to worship an even bigger greenskin like Nurgle?

The problem with Typhus' destroyer hive tactic is that it really is cheesy. Unlike the grot bomb, the hive bomb takes advantage of an obviously unintentional loophole of being able to charge your own gun emplacement. This is tactially stupid and has no foundation in fluff.
From a fluff perspective it would look something like this:

Grot Bomb: Epidemus steps through a warprift near the worshippers and almost immediately his very presence causes everything in the vicinity to wither. The mek/weirdboy/warboss etc. of course knew this would happen just as Nurgle told him and he directs the runtherds to press the grots closer to Epidemus’ aura. Meanwhile, Epidemus catalogs the results of his plagues and Nurgle rewards all his faithful with shiny new diseases and even less pain.

Hive Bomb: Epidemus steps through a warprift somewhere – Typhus isn’t necessarily sure where – but somewhere on the battlefield. And now Typhus leads a charge on an unoccupied gun emplacement. That he brought with him. The cultists can’t scratch the gun emplacement. Typhus puts away Manreaper and attempts to destroy the gun emplacement with the Destroyer Hive (which he can only use once every several days apparently) In the process, he kills two-thirds of his cultists. Epidemus shakes his head. Nurgle shakes his head. And blessings for everyone.


Hive bomb - takes advantage of an obviously unintentional loophole of being able to charge your own gun emplacement.

Grot bomb - takes advantage of a longstanding rule that Aura DOESN'T TARGET. I guess if you wanted to make it fluffy, you could model the quadgun to be like an altar upon which to sacrifice cultists? That, IMHO is pretty cheesy though.

I would guess the "can I charge a gun emplacement that is not occupied by enemy models?" situation will be FAQ'd to stop it from happening. I would guess the "can I use Aura of decay as written?" situation will not be FAQ'd (okay, errata'd.)

Borgnine
18-10-2012, 22:47
I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned the Sanguinor. He's got the 2+/3++ that's nice and is rocking WS8 and EW. You can model him with an axe if you'd like for S6 AP2. Dude has lots of attacks and makes those around him better. Finally, he's a champ against enemy characters with the reroll to hit and to wound special rule.

I'm not saying that he's the best, but I'm just surprised that he hasn't even been mentioned.

MagicHat
18-10-2012, 23:15
Grot bomb - takes advantage of a longstanding rule that Aura DOESN'T TARGET. I guess if you wanted to make it fluffy, you could model the quadgun to be like an altar upon which to sacrifice cultists? That, IMHO is pretty cheesy though.


I don't see how this is correct in RAW or RAI, nor do I see how you can blame the quadgun charge for being cheesy when you attempt the same thing.
Aura of decay is a ranged weapon and ranged weapons must be in range of an enemy unit to fire. The grots cannot be targeted because they are allies, and allies cannot be the targets of any shooting attacks.
Assaulting the quadgun is atleast correct in a RAW sense.

BigHammer
18-10-2012, 23:19
No Fuegan? I7 WS7 smash attacks on a 2+ FNP EW? There are a fair few that can beat him, but he's amongst the best now.

Lysander would get my vote for killiest CC HQ. If you don't kill him on the first turn (2+/3++ 4W EW, good luck), you're going to have a bad time. Master-crafted S10 Thunder Hammer... if you somehow survive that you're still likely to be hitting at I1 next round. All that and stubborn for your army, bolster defences and bolter drill make for a pretty scary character all round, too.

Some of the Dark Eldar characters have fantastic strategic value too. The Baron and the Duke both bring numerous army-wide or unit-wide advantages for very low points costs, whilst at the same time remaining viable close combat characters (both have shadow fields, the Baron is S6/7/8 on the charge, the Duke has his 2+ poison that ignores armour on a 5+ and both are WS/I 6).

For an all-rounder, though, I'd have to agree with the majority on Eldrad. Close combat he can toe-to-toe with a good amount of the big boys and still come out on top through re-rolls and that beautiful, disgusting staff. Then he's one of the most powerful psykers in the game. Then he has his prescience ability for deployment shenanigans... Every time I write an Eldar list I try not to take him, just take a normal farseer, but in the end I cave and trim a pathfinder here, a fire dragon there and all of a sudden I have enough points to swap that farseer for Eldrad, and I'm always glad I do.

For the underdog vote, a tooled-up Dark Eldar Archon can be terrifying to face. With no limits on points he can have a blast pistol and huskblade, combat drugs for an added edge (his S3 wont be that much of a laughing matter with re-rolls to wound, or if it's actually S4), a 2++ save (yeah, if he fails it he loses it but my experience of these guys so far is that if they fail it they die from failing it anyway) and access to furious charge and feel no pain, as well as the ability to get stronger by killing independent characters and monstrous creatures. All that and WS/I 7. Nasty.

MagicHat
18-10-2012, 23:34
Lysander would get my vote for killiest CC HQ. If you don't kill him on the first turn (2+/3++ 4W EW, good luck), you're going to have a bad time. Master-crafted S10 Thunder Hammer... if you somehow survive that you're still likely to be hitting at I1 next round. All that and stubborn for your army, bolster defences and bolter drill make for a pretty scary character all round, too.


IIRC, I made the math on Calgar versus Lysander and Calgar actually came out on top.
And Wolf lord on thunderwolf with thunderhammer, saga of the bear, runic armour, stormshield and wolfthooth amulet is killier then both. 2 more A then Lysander, always hits on 3+ though he do have 1 less wound.

druchii
19-10-2012, 00:09
Hey, I am the first one to point out that Fatecrusher was cheese, as is Fatescreamer, so don't mistake me for someone that can't distinguish what good cheese may look like. But you can't claim that a guy sacrificing his pawns for the blessings of his god isn't exactly how you expect things to work in the fluff. From the astonomican to a grot prod.




Sorry, I was treating it as a "pics or it didn't happen" kind of challenge, not a "well that was retconned so pretend it didn't happen" kind of irrefutable statement.

As for losing the demonhunters fluff, wasn't the guy responsible for changing their fluff also responsible for this idea that orks were created to fight tomb kings in space? Isn't he responsible for Kaldor Draigo's fluff? And grey knights of khorne? And necron/blood angel wonder twin powers? And all the sad Astartes that didn't get to be Ultramarines? Yeah, guess I should just be a loyal GW fan and pretend it never happened then...

Why would they worship Nurgle? Because he makes dem tuffur and killiur and skariur and strongur and biggur? The meks get access to stuff from the Soul Forge so possibly even shootier. As I said before, why WOULDN'T they want to worship an even bigger greenskin like Nurgle?

The problem with Typhus' destroyer hive tactic is that it really is cheesy. Unlike the grot bomb, the hive bomb takes advantage of an obviously unintentional loophole of being able to charge your own gun emplacement. This is tactially stupid and has no foundation in fluff.
From a fluff perspective it would look something like this:

Grot Bomb: Epidemus steps through a warprift near the worshippers and almost immediately his very presence causes everything in the vicinity to wither. The mek/weirdboy/warboss etc. of course knew this would happen just as Nurgle told him and he directs the runtherds to press the grots closer to Epidemus’ aura. Meanwhile, Epidemus catalogs the results of his plagues and Nurgle rewards all his faithful with shiny new diseases and even less pain.

Hive Bomb: Epidemus steps through a warprift somewhere – Typhus isn’t necessarily sure where – but somewhere on the battlefield. And now Typhus leads a charge on an unoccupied gun emplacement. That he brought with him. The cultists can’t scratch the gun emplacement. Typhus puts away Manreaper and attempts to destroy the gun emplacement with the Destroyer Hive (which he can only use once every several days apparently) In the process, he kills two-thirds of his cultists. Epidemus shakes his head. Nurgle shakes his head. And blessings for everyone.


Hive bomb - takes advantage of an obviously unintentional loophole of being able to charge your own gun emplacement.

Grot bomb - takes advantage of a longstanding rule that Aura DOESN'T TARGET. I guess if you wanted to make it fluffy, you could model the quadgun to be like an altar upon which to sacrifice cultists? That, IMHO is pretty cheesy though.

I would guess the "can I charge a gun emplacement that is not occupied by enemy models?" situation will be FAQ'd to stop it from happening. I would guess the "can I use Aura of decay as written?" situation will not be FAQ'd (okay, errata'd.)


Sometimes it's hard to tell if you're actually being serious, or just willingly obstinate.

Anyone who would try and argue that the grot bomb isn't cheesy and that the typhus-sacrifice is, is so obviously trying to make them selves feel about d-baggery that it boggles my mind. Boggles it right out of my skull.

Oh, and right, pictures, from the internet. That's how people argue.

d

FashaTheDog
19-10-2012, 01:32
If we are including the Apoc-only HQ's like Papa G'aap, I would say that An'ggrath the Unbound would take just about any other HQ out there. Up to 13 WS 10 S 10 AP 2 and D3 S 10 HoW attacks from as far as 42" away. He may only be I 5, but not much that strikes before him will eat through 8 T8 wounds with a 2+/4+. Add in that the only psychic powers that can touch him are ones with a defined S value which he can then use his 2+ DtW to nullify, and you have a very killy, very resilient HQ.

Zarakynel hits An'ggrath on a 4+ and wounds on a 4+ with six attacks that An'ggrath gets no protection against thanks to Souleater. Then An'ggrath gets his seven attacks that hit on 4+ wound on 4+ that Zarakynel gets a 4+ invulnerable against. That works out to 1.5 wounds to .875 wounds or 5.3 rounds to 6.857 rounds, both in favor of Zarakynel. Against Scabeiathrax it comes out to 1.5 wounds to 1.25 wounds (after doubling for the Blade of Decay), in favor of Zarakynel, or 6.6 rounds to 4.8 rounds, only this time in favor of Scabeiathrax. This means that Papa G'AAP loses 7.2 wounds by the time he finishes off Zarakynel. Although as you cannot actually cause partial wounds to double this could take Papa G'AAP a little longer to kill Zarakynel and may or may not put the Slaanesh Daemon Lord in the running.

Also, I think Papa G'AAP is a great name, I mean, Papa Generally ' Accepted Accounting Principle :D.

A.T.
19-10-2012, 09:53
Zarakynel hits An'ggrath on a 4+ and wounds on a 4+ with six attacks that An'ggrath gets no protection against thanks to Souleater. Then An'ggrath gets his seven attacks that hit on 4+ wound on 4+ that Zarakynel gets a 4+ invulnerable against.Zarakynel lost her ignore invulnerables last year in IAA 2nd edition, though she still has the edge in combat thanks to a 3++, rerolls to hit/wound, and instant death causing D3 wounds per wounding hit.

Sotek
19-10-2012, 10:21
Vect, Abbadon or Mephiston

BrotherCaptainS
19-10-2012, 11:30
I saw one slight mention, but most powerful is found in codex space wolves and not even a special character. Thunderwolf lord, saga of bear, runic armor, storm shield, thunder hammer, wolf tooth, wolf tail and 2 wolves. wolves give 2 extra wounds against shooting, 5 S10 attacks standing still, 6 on charge/counter charge. 2+/3++, always hits on 3+, 5+ to negate psy powers, T5 and you have a 12" move with fleet. thos dude does serious hurt very quickly. munches vehicles, charcters and has enough attacks to kill lots of dudes. nastiness.

williamsond
19-10-2012, 11:50
I think with the addition of Biomancy to his box of tricks the swarm lord is probably the best combat monster in the game only let down buy his 4+inv save, lack of grenades for assaulting through cover and his lack of any shooty weapon (not counting psy attacks). If he gets iron arm and endurance (4 out of 6 chance) there's not much that could stand against him in combact. potentialy he's str and t 9 with 5 attacks on the charge rerolling to hit and wound with prefered enemy and normally striking first needing 3+ to hit. With biomancy iron arm he's got eternal warrior and endurance gives him feel no pain and it will not die. With him wounding most stuff on 2+ insta killing every thing and forcing rerolls on inv saves not many characters will stand one round with him.

FashaTheDog
19-10-2012, 15:10
Zarakynel lost her ignore invulnerables last year in IAA 2nd edition, though she still has the edge in combat thanks to a 3++, rerolls to hit/wound, and instant death causing D3 wounds per wounding hit.

Ah, I knew there was something I forgot to order last time; one more thing to pickup at Adepticon. Without Souleater ignoring invulnerable saves, she does take quite the blow, even with those other changes.

Shamana
19-10-2012, 15:19
"For an all-rounder, though, I'd have to agree with the majority on Eldrad. Close combat he can toe-to-toe with a good amount of the big boys and still come out on top through re-rolls and that beautiful, disgusting staff."

Actually, isn't Eldrad somewhat lackluster in CC due to a low number of attacks? Sure, he'll cause some wounds, but against anything with an invulnerable save he shouldn't be that incredible.

Poseidal
19-10-2012, 15:21
Yriel is better offensively than Eldrad due to more attacks at higher weaponskill, with basically the same weapon but he doesn't make it on these lists.

I'm surprised Eldrad's 1 profile attack that can never Instant Death is really considered great; it's like Teclis, who has a great sword combined with very bad combat stats.

Vlad Urkana
19-10-2012, 17:26
Zarakynel lost her ignore invulnerables last year in IAA 2nd edition, though she still has the edge in combat thanks to a 3++, rerolls to hit/wound, and instant death causing D3 wounds per wounding hit.


Ah, I knew there was something I forgot to order last time; one more thing to pickup at Adepticon. Without Souleater ignoring invulnerable saves, she does take quite the blow, even with those other changes.

Unless I'm way off, and I could be since I don't play Apoc, the instant death caused by The Souleater Sword would be ignored by the Eternal Warrior that Gargantuan Creatures have; the D3 wounds thing is for effects like JoWW, or the new daemon mace. An'ggrath would also get the charge off almost assuredly due to his 42" ignoring terrain threat range compared to Zarakynel's 30" threat range so the D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks need to come into play along with his D6 charge attacks. Here's the mathhammer I came up with:
Round 1-
An'ggrath charges, 2 HoW attacks simultaneous with Zarakynel. To account for Zarakynel's rerollable hits/wounds I used .75 and .66 respectively.
An'ggrath-2 x (5/6) x (4/6)=1.11 wounds
Zarakynel-5 x (.75) x (.66) x (.5)=1.23 wounds
An'ggrath- 10 x (.5) x (5/6) x (4/6)=2.77 wounds
First round totals: An'ggrath 3.88 wounds dealt Zarakynel 1.23 wounds dealt
Round 2-
Zarakynel-Same as above 1.23 wounds
An'ggrath 7 x (.5) x (5/6) x (4/6)=1.94 wounds
Cumulative total: An'ggrath 5.82 wounds dealt Zarakynel 2.46 wounds dealt
Round 3-
Zarakynel-same as above 1.23 wounds
An'ggrath-same as above 1.94 wounds
Cumulative total: An'ggrath 7.76 wounds dealt Zarakynel 3.69 wounds dealt

So there is a good chance that An'ggrath will kill Zarakynel after 2 rounds of combat if he charges, which he likely would on the table top. If we throw them into a vacuum with no charges An'ggrath should take Zarakynel down after 3 rounds (5.82 vs 2.46) on slightly above average dice or 4 rounds (7.76 vs 3.69) with below average dice.

A.T.
19-10-2012, 17:56
Unless I'm way off, and I could be since I don't play Apoc, the instant death caused by The Souleater Sword would be ignored by the Eternal Warrior that Gargantuan Creatures have; the D3 wounds thing is for effects like JoWW, or the new daemon mace.Yes, you are right. I missed it when I read the rules as force weapons appear in the list of things which inflict D3 wounds.

techsoldaten
19-10-2012, 18:06
The choice for me has to be Abaddon, hands down. He's a cc machine without peer who can shrug off most damage without issue. I have run him in my lists for several editions of 40k and he just adds something special to battles. It's not like any other hq option can really stand up against him in cc.

In 6th edition, I pair him with squads of Terminators or Spawn, who typically get gunned down just before he gets into close combat. The funny thing is I never mind, their job is to deliver him to the battle and they do it just fine.

The one complaint I have about him is mobility, it's never fun when the other guy gets the charge. It's not like he can't clean up even without the extra attack, but it's always nicer to feel like he is overwhelming the enemy.

youngsamwise
19-10-2012, 19:13
Sometimes it's hard to tell if you're actually being serious, or just willingly obstinate.

Anyone who would try and argue that the grot bomb isn't cheesy and that the typhus-sacrifice is, is so obviously trying to make them selves feel about d-baggery that it boggles my mind. Boggles it right out of my skull.

Oh, and right, pictures, from the internet. That's how people argue.

d

Yup, pics based on internet memes are completely ineffective.

Only incoherent ranting
155223

and ad hominem attacks
155221

can win the internet argument!
155222


Probably just illustrates the point that I suck at competitive gaming as much as I do at competitive internet arguing.

Chem-Dog
20-10-2012, 03:18
Hey, I am the first one to point out that Fatecrusher was cheese, as is Fatescreamer, so don't mistake me for someone that can't distinguish what good cheese may look like. But you can't claim that a guy sacrificing his pawns for the blessings of his god isn't exactly how you expect things to work in the fluff. From the astonomican to a grot prod.

If it were a mechanism within a single Codex, no I would have no problem with it, it's fluffy, but the grot-bomb thing is pure unadulterated cheese that has nothing to do with the fluff and everything to do with abusing the Allies mechanic. What God would welcome the sacrifice of the weakest individuals you can find? Exactly None. Fact. They want Figureheads, they want Champions. Sacrifice a mob of Nobs and then we'll talk :p

I'm not here to tell you you're doing it wrong, I'm just saying you're quite a distance from my version of doing it right ;)

OgreBattle
20-10-2012, 05:09
If it were a mechanism within a single Codex, no I would have no problem with it, it's fluffy, but the grot-bomb thing is pure unadulterated cheese that has nothing to do with the fluff and everything to do with abusing the Allies mechanic. What God would welcome the sacrifice of the weakest individuals you can find? Exactly None. Fact. They want Figureheads, they want Champions. Sacrifice a mob of Nobs and then we'll talk :p


Well cults are always sacrificing virgin maidens, and those aren't really known as scary or threatening... Just put the grots in white dresses and the runtherd claim they are innocent virgins. Orks are probably not going to be very good at understanding how rituals work so they would just be imitating something they found in a pulp magazine.