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dienekes96
13-05-2006, 21:07
I wrote a HUGE post which was eaten.

To summarize:

LOTR:
The Two Towers next year
- new Ents (two, generic, multiple heads and branches to make more)
- new Isengard minis
- new Wildmen minis

Fantasy:
Battle for Skull Pass
- November
- You know the rest, the minis are quite good, I might add. Great bargain

Orcs and Goblins (October)
- New Cover looked great
- Loads of new plastics (nothing specified though)
- uses the Waagh as a horde (helps Orcs, not Gobbos)

40K:
- CoD (you know most of this)
- They like the idea a lot...so do I, so good on 'em.

Eldar:
- DA plastics by Jes
- New WL, WW (as seen), NO NEW VEHICLES
- Some new Aspect sculpts (not all), done by Juan Diaz on Jes designs
- Aspects are not all Elites, but spread throughout the Force Org
- Autarch sculpted by Jes, lots of mix and matching wargear, followed many paths, but not an Exarch
- Exarchs will be leaders and give bonuses to their squads of Aspects
- No Craftworld-specific lists, but main list should be felxible enough to make do

Q&A:
- Dark Eldar will be a MAJOR redo, like the Wood Elves...so probably a while away. They like the ideas and concepts, but will relaunch from whole cloth
- =][= Xenos is a while away and mioght be folded into a supplemental book (a redo of all the =][='s maybe)...the design focus is on complete army lists...not mix and match from various books. There is a lot more to speculate on here, as several question led down the army list vs. CoD-type supplement path, but I'm tired
- DA, BA, and SW will follow the BT template.

Gav gave some decent info, and was a polite and fun guy.

FW:
IA5 is just being started
- Death Korps are the Imperial army
- Traitors are the bad guys
- Siege Titan
- Daemon Engines
- 2007 release

Enjoy,
Chuck

NakedFisherman
13-05-2006, 21:10
Give more details. :)

Thanks for what you've stated so far, though.

Yarick Zan
13-05-2006, 21:10
whoa thanks dude. maybe you should rewrite that whole post for us so we can understand a bit more.

Raibaru
13-05-2006, 21:14
Yup. He also said upwards of 5 aspects being redone. He specifically mentioned Spiders and Spears weren't being redone but he did make an offhand comment about possibly redoing select exarch models (so maybe there is still hope for the spiders exarch?). He commented that they aren't doing the spears because they want to redo the bikes in plastic.

The DA gun will be 18" range while guardians remain at 12".

The Autarch are apparently metal but they weren't giving any details on how the models would be handled. It sounded like they will be in a blister box with a few arm options (which is odd. I assumed they'd be in a box like the new HQ are).

[edit...] He also said no new vehicles aside from the Wraithlord and Warwalker.

That's about all I can add right off hand.

The Emperor
13-05-2006, 21:15
- New WL, WW (as seen), NO NEW VEHICLES

Considering how people complain about the Wave Serpent, I'm surprised that's not getting redone. Still, I'm VERY much looking forward to a new Wraithlord.


- Aspects are not all Elites, but spread throughout the Force Org

That'd be nice. I wonder where they're gonna go, though. Maybe some more are gonna be included in Troops? If I had to guess I'd say that Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees would be Troops, as they're fairly common Aspects. Almost as much as Dire Avengers.


- Dark Eldar will be a MAJOR redo, like the Wood Elves...so probably a while away. They like the ideas and concepts, but will relaunch from whole cloth

Well at least they're not going the way of the Squats, so that's a plus.


- =][= Xenos is a while away and mioght be folded into a supplemental book (a redo of all the =][='s maybe)...the design focus is on complete army lists...not mix and match from various books.

I hope this doesn't mean that Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters are gonna get gutted as viable armies. I like the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle.


- DA, BA, and SW will follow the BT template.

I didn't get the Black Templars Codex. So what's the template? Is it that they're fully fledged Codex's in their own right, instead of those stupid half-Codex's they released in 3rd that made you reference Codex: Space Marines at every turn?

Yarick Zan
13-05-2006, 21:16
probably full bore codices.

ionfish
13-05-2006, 21:21
He specifically mentioned Spiders and Spears weren't being redone but he did make an offhand comment about possibly redoing select exarch models (so maybe there is still hope for the spiders exarch?).
The Warp Spider Exarch doesn't really need to be redone... if they ever did, I hope they'd basically just copy the old design and bring it into line with the rest of the range in terms of size.

Many thanks to everyone who's contributed some news. I really appreciate it.

Empy: yeah, basically. Complete codices from the ground up, not an 'upgrade'.

Actually quite happy about there not being Craftworld lists. I was always a Vanilla player, and that list let you play most craftworlds anyway... balancing one army list is also far more likely to produce desirable results (even if that one list is more work).

Raibaru
13-05-2006, 21:32
The Warp Spider Exarch doesn't really need to be redone... if they ever did, I hope they'd basically just copy the old design and bring it into line with the rest of the range in terms of size.

Well its really just subjective to personal taste. I personally don't like the exarch model all that much and felt the Spiders and their exarch needed new models. Atleast more then the Banshees did. But its all personal taste really. They are still my favorite aspect and I very much look forward to seeing their new rules.

Hopefully they will be a little more reliable while jumping now.

ionfish
13-05-2006, 21:35
I agree that the models are fairly old, and I certainly wouldn't object to some resculpts, but as far as I'm concerned it wouldn't be the end of the world if they got missed out.

On the rules front, hopefully they'll be back to their old infantry-massacring ways...

primarch16
13-05-2006, 21:42
I want plastic warp spiders!! *weeps*

Ah well, new ents should be nice, I might get an army if I have a little spare cash.

any pictures?

Lyinar
13-05-2006, 22:00
I REALLY can't see them redoing the Wave Serpent, considering they only put it out, what, less than a year ago? Personally, I like it, but then again, that's a matter of taste. Sure, the plastic turret looks less cool than the Forgeworld turret, but it definitely beats having to pay Forgeworld prices, ESPECIALLY on the army's basic transport.

And as others have said... could you pleeeeeeeeease post some pictures?

Messiah
13-05-2006, 22:07
I wrote a HUGE post which was eaten.
- Aspects are not all Elites, but spread throughout the Force Org


Dire Avengers = Troops
Shining Spears = Fast Attack
Dark Reapers = Heavy
Rest = Elite

Would be my guess?

Raibaru
13-05-2006, 22:08
There were no pictures. The overall GD sucked in my opinion. (But I mostly go for the seminars, and not the gaming. The Warhammer Online seminar was quite good though.) It was likely the exact same thing from LA. The Eldar slide was just the WD pictures which were posted in the other thread. Had the Scorpion artwork, the banshees, the firedragons and the warwalkers. About a 1 page spread on the Orcs and Goblins if memory serves too.

And you're right. None of the vehicles aside from the Warwalker and the Wraithlord (although not a vehicle) are being redone. He mentioned the rules for the Waveserpent, Falcon and Prism will better suit their specific roles. He said the Waveserpent will be cheaper, but still one of the more expensive transports in the game. Didnt go into detail on what rules were changing for any of them though.

Warhammer Online looks to be shaping up quite nicely. If you've been following the MMO then none of what was shown was actually that new or groundbreaking really.

Lyinar
13-05-2006, 22:13
We weren't talking about pictures shown as slides... We were instead speaking of pictures taken of the "hey, we're showing off the upcoming stuff" table. ;)

Raibaru
13-05-2006, 22:17
Right, there wasn't much there either. Had a plastic balrog for LotR, the Support Platform + sprue, the Avengersand thats all that I can remember off hand. think the other 2 displays were showing off FW stuff like shoulder pads and such.

Da Reddaneks
13-05-2006, 22:27
did they say anything about 40K Orks?

Yarick Zan
13-05-2006, 22:33
probably not. maybe if you would have taken notice at the first post you would realize this.

Raibaru
13-05-2006, 22:34
It was brought up in the Q&A... someone asked "are you looking at the orks" and his response was "of course we are" followed by a room filled with laughter.

I believe there was a short response along the lines of "soon" but nothing concrete.

dienekes96
13-05-2006, 22:35
Sorry...the detailed one was buttlong, but I'm not rewriting it. My apologies.

Only the Dire Avengers will be plastic, but they'd like to do the others in similar fashion...but limited resources, blah, blah, blah. Maybe in the future for a supplement.

There are no pictures to show. I had no camera, and the only picture worth sharing is the Orc Army book cover.

Gav did discuss the resculpts, and mentioned some models have been redone before and weren't as good as the originals. He also said when you redo something Goodwin did, you have to consider if you can improve. I do think Diaz sculpting from Goodwin drawings will be the best of both worlds. Diaz is a bit more dynamic, and Jes is a bit more technical. Should be a nice mix.

Marine template is pretty simple. BA, DA, and SW will get stand-alone Codicies...and probably the same model coverage (metal characters and squad, plastic accessory sprues).

40k Orks are in the R&D phase (which is meaningless). With the O&G coming this fall for fantasy, I'd expect Orks as the major release in 2007 (speculation only, but I'd put money on it). Only thing mentioned specifically was the oft-discussed desire for modular vehicle kits.

Malakai
13-05-2006, 22:56
Maybe we will get more info on the Eldar when Jes goes to the Toronto Games Day. Does anyone know when that is? I seem to remember that it's sometime at the end of this month.


-Malakai

DarkWarrior1981
13-05-2006, 23:04
Maybe we will get more info on the Eldar when Jes goes to the Toronto Games Day. Does anyone know when that is? I seem to remember that it's sometime at the end of this month.


-Malakai
It is on Saturday, May 27th.:)

dienekes96
13-05-2006, 23:25
It means there is ONE Eldar list in the Codex, and they aren't making a Craftworld addendum. The list should be flexible enough to allow a gamer to use their existing CW army.

Voss
13-05-2006, 23:55
Some details I caught in the first seminar, and down on the (admittedly limited) display table-

from the table. The new war walker is sweet, brought in line with the current eldar stuff (the front screen looks like it came from the same factory/tradition as the vyper, which is quite cool)

On display- several plastic DA's. The squad leader had two shuriken cat's, one in each hand, for some reason. There was also a small plastic scope (add-on bit) on top of the guns. (To signify the 18" range that only DAs get, I guess). They still have the look of the current guardian. Some of the also had loin cloths, and random extra bits of kit on the shoulders and waist.

The new gun platform. The sprue has all 5 weapons. (Hurrah) And it looks like they fit falcons/vypers/etc. All plastic. The sample model had everything put together on one large base, which I personally find annoying.

There was also a single new Howling Banshee figure (a new feature- shoulder guards). and a single new Fire Dragon figure (pose- cradling the gun in the left hand, while holding the right arm out in preparation for a discus-grenade throw)

From the seminar. Variant army lists are going away (and this applies across game systems, as a general policy, though they aren't forcing anything into limbo as yet). As are books that are army/supplement/scenarios. (which is why Xenos is not coming soon, as the other Ordos books were confused in this regard. Plus the Deathwatch aren't enough of an army in comparison to the Grey Knights or Sisters)

Orks are in the vague 'some work is being done' phase. Unlike the Dark Eldar who are in the 'Someday we'll get to them phase' like Wood Elves were for ages- and DE will be a complete redo like the WE, with loads of extra fluff that didn't fit in the original pamphlet sized armybook (current design is aimed at the full 96 (or whatever it is now) page books.

Eldar codex.

-Some Aspect reshuffling. Personal speculation- Warp spiders in fast attack, either howling banshees or scorpions in troops. I'd guess scorpions since they lack the power weapons or fusion guns that would then characterize the elite choice aspects.

-Autarch (?) comfirmed. Leader/strategy guy, with years of experience in war, without being trapped in a particular aspect. Can draw from paths he walked before in terms of skills/wargear. Also bumps the strategy rating and provides rerolls for reserve rolls.

-Guardians are being pushed back into support roles (particularly vehicle pilots and heavy weapon crews) in favor of the front line troops- the aspect warriors.

- craftworld variants gone, but largely able to do from the main list-
Biel Tan, he referred to as the easiest to do, particularly with the reshuffling (to 'even out') the Aspects across the list. Only exception is the court of the young king, which *apparently* (not 100% certain) won't be workable.
Sam Hain. Hey, guess what? This is easy too, as jetbikes are now troop choices. Jes may redo the jetbikes at some point- he apparently wants to.
Iyanden- unsure as to details, but he did say this was doable.
Ulthwe- eh. If you want guardians you can probably have them. Just kiss your free upgrade goodbye. (Not confirmed, but likely, IMO. Maybe they'll tweak the guardian stats overall)
Altaioc- pathfinders will apparently be an upgrade for rangers. So, done.

-Fire prisms will be buffed. And they 'will be somewhat like they were in epic' if you have multiple fire prisms on the table.

-Wave Serpent cost may be tweaked. (This was a little unclear, as the guy asking the question was a little nutty about it, and Gav got confused about whether or not the guy was asking about the exact cost or insisiting it should just be low because he said so).

SM chapter codexes will be full codexes. He specifically said they wanted to avoid books references other books, and changes thus creating domino effects through multiple army lists. (This, actually, is another problem they have with the current Ordo books)

Anaxagorax
14-05-2006, 00:01
blablablablabla
...
- Daemon Engines


Yes! Finally! Can't wait to see what they cook up.

:) Anax

Malakai
14-05-2006, 00:05
Voss, did you get an idea of what slot the Guardians would be in? You mentioned a support role. Are they going to change their classification from troops to say heavy support?

-Malakai

Jon_Irenicus
14-05-2006, 00:10
Lots of welcome info there. I´ll make love to the Dark Eldar everyday if they look anything like the Wood Elves. Provided they´re ladies, of course.
*ahem*
Lots of good info there, and the fact that the Autarch(s?) is/are made by Jes GODwyn is enough for me to buy them. The man has yet to release a bad mini.

Voss
14-05-2006, 00:18
No, I didn't. I would think the general guardian squads would stay troops, just because they don't fit anywhere else (unless you fit them with a compulsary transport, which, bleh.)
I wouldn't be suprised to see guardian heavy weapon teams in heavy support. (and my personal preference would be to ditch the single heavy in guardian squads) He raised the possiblity of new units (actually he said a few units are 'new or the reappearance of old units') Or words to that effect.

Oh and I forgot-

The Avatar
the old favorite will be tweaked to 'bring it more in line with being a Greater Daemon of a War God'. So expect a better profile, or at least a better save and some special rules. And he said it will get some of the neat powers it used to have. He also remarked that he thought it good at the time he wrote the previous codex, but it was 'overshadowed by more ambitious designers' (& implied serious rules creep)

Anaxagorax
14-05-2006, 00:20
...(actually he said a few units are 'new or the reappearance of old units')...

Harlequins!

*Crosses fingers and weeps with joy*

:) Anax

squigsnok
14-05-2006, 00:22
<<snippage>>

From the seminar. Variant army lists are going away (and this applies across game systems, as a general policy, though they aren't forcing anything into limbo as yet).

<<snippage>>

By "varient army lists" do you mean they're chucking the traits/doctrines/legion rules out of the window some time in the future?

Which brings me to my next question: why? I mean, sure, there are some that get a whole lot of stick (with good reason in some cases *coughironwarriorscough*) but I dont want them to utterly get rid of the variety. The sheer number of possibilities when choosing an army is a good thing, in my opinion. It keeps players guessing in events (or should do in theory) and means everyone's armies aren't carbon copies of each other like in previous editions.

And i'd hate them to ditch the Klan rules when the new ork dex comes out. That's just the kind of thing that gets head office burnt down...

Smoking Frog
14-05-2006, 00:22
I would say these are very interesting new developments. All very welcome, I'm feeling rather auspicious about the Eldar codex.


By "varient army lists" do you mean they're chucking the traits/doctrines/legion rules out of the window some time in the future?

I would say that they are chucking out the variant army lists, rather than doctrines/traits, and all those customisable bits, since they aren't really variations, rather specialisations or adaptations.

Tiberius Frost
14-05-2006, 00:25
Eldar codex.

-Some Aspect reshuffling. Personal speculation- Warp spiders in fast attack, either howling banshees or scorpions in troops. I'd guess scorpions since they lack the power weapons or fusion guns that would then characterize the elite choice aspects.

I'd be disappointed if Scorpions wound up as a troops choice. hey've always been my favourite aspect and I'd like them to retain their elite status.
On the other hand, if they were a troops choice, I could field an army of only striking scorpions (hot dang!).



-Guardians are being pushed back into support roles (particularly vehicle pilots and heavy weapon crews) in favor of the front line troops- the aspect warriors.

VERY interesting... This is basically the opposite of what Gav had in mind when he did the 3rd ed codex, but it's something that many of us have been puzzling over for a while... the idea of guardian meatshields... =/



- craftworld variants gone, but largely able to do from the main list-
Sam Hain. Hey, guess what? This is easy too, as jetbikes are now troop choices. Jes may redo the jetbikes at some point- he apparently wants to.

Mint. That's very good to hear, because it means that the jetbikes will have gotten a rework. Can't wait to start fielding them again.



-Fire prisms will be buffed. And they 'will be somewhat like they were in epic' if you have multiple fire prisms on the table.
Cool. I might have to convert a falcon into a fire prism so that I can have two on the board. We'll see. On another note, I don't suppose that they mentioned if the points cost of the fire prism would be altered at all - Might get a bit pricy if you have to field a whole load of fire prisms to make them worth while.

squigsnok
14-05-2006, 00:25
The Avatar
the old favorite will be tweaked to 'bring it more in line with being a Greater Daemon of a War God'. So expect a better profile, or at least a better save and some special rules. And he said it will get some of the neat powers it used to have.

The "neat powers it used to have"? Invunerability to any form of fire based weapon? That wasn't "neat" it was damn scary!

Voss
14-05-2006, 00:31
By "varient army lists" do you mean they're chucking the traits/doctrines/legion rules out of the window some time in the future?

Which brings me to my next question: why? I mean, sure, there are some that get a whole lot of stick (with good reason in some cases *coughironwarriorscough*) but I dont want them to utterly get rid of the variety. The sheer number of possibilities when choosing an army is a good thing, in my opinion. It keeps players guessing in events (or should do in theory) and means everyone's armies aren't carbon copies of each other like in previous editions.

And i'd hate them to ditch the Klan rules when the new ork dex comes out. That's just the kind of thing that gets head office burnt down...


I don't think he meant that sort of thing. From the context it was stuff like the mini-lists out of Armaggedon and Eye of Terror (and to a certain extent Storm of Chaos). Basically he said, ideally, someone is picking up a Codex/Army book, plunking it down, and making an army *out of that book*.

So traits/legions/chapter traits would still be viable, but not 'here's 3 new units to go with army X, if you're using special character Z, and see Codex X for the basic units, as well as pages xx-yy of the book the 3 new units are in', oh and unit beta gets a BS of 4, at a points cost of ##.
Basically, its a move away from that sort of muddle.

Its apparently a fairly recent design decision, since the Warhammer jungle thing last year was aimed the opposite direction.

Other things-
fire prisms. Maybe a points change. Dunno. Definitely some rule changes involved, which probably means the points have to change, but no idea how much or which direction.

Doctrines- didn't get the impression there'd be anything like 'em. However, choice of Craftworld, from what he said, is going to largely be a fluff/paint scheme/personal perference sort of thing. Not a what 'special abilities do I get from painting my rangers blue' thing. Though he didn't express it that way. That said, ~30 pages of fluff are going back into the codex, so if the major craftworlds inspire you, there will be details on 'em.

Smoking Frog
14-05-2006, 00:32
I'd be disappointed if Scorpions wound up as a troops choice. hey've always been my favourite aspect and I'd like them to retain their elite status.
On the other hand, if they were a troops choice, I could field an army of only striking scorpions (hot dang!).

In a way it makes sense, but relegating them to troops doesn't make them less elite. They are just elite troops. I can see that the way things seem to be going, it seems that we will be able to have a fully workable army, in the sense that we will be able to field full-on elite troops as well as guardian armies, and everything in between.

I'm liking this a lot.

Voss
14-05-2006, 00:45
Keep in mind that scorpions as troops was just my personal speculation. All Gav said was that *some* of the Aspect Warriors were being moved on the force org chart. There may even be prerequisites for that, for all I know (like x, y aspects as troops if you have an Autarch, for example).

So don't get any particular aspect set in a new, specific slot solely on my speculation.

Bregalad
14-05-2006, 00:48
The dam has broken and the news keep coming, let's hope for the best at Toronto Games Day.

Looking at the 4th edition Codices (and WHFB army books), I think we don't have to be afraid about diminishing options. I guess that there is some form of "Eldar trait", that allows for specialization. But keep in mind, that the Eldar magic will be less aggressive and more supportive and the farseer councils very limited in numbers, so current Ulthwé army lists will possibly not work anymore.

The downside of the talk about GW wanting to have everything in one book is: It diminishes our hope on a steady flow of new troops for every army, as some of us have hoped after all the releases for CoD. Having to wait 6-7 years for new stuff for every army (except Chaos ;) ) is still a big disadvantage of Warhammer compared to other systems like Warmachine.

Tom
14-05-2006, 00:54
However,the side benefit is that it benefits from stability of models. Your Tactical Marines will still be the same Tactical marines 7 years from now, for instance. Theywon#t be magically obsolete.


And holding back releases would cause more complaining if anything.

philbrad2
14-05-2006, 00:56
It means there is ONE Eldar list in the Codex, and they aren't making a Craftworld addendum. The list should be flexible enough to allow a gamer to use their existing CW army.

I'd imagine this is like codex Chaos - generic list with a pageor two for each of the craftwaord variants with some special wargeer, force choices.

From the new pics in the rumour round up I'm not sold on the new Warwalkers, Banshees look cool, why update the perfectly good Fire Dragon models? Surely the weakest sculpts in the metal Aspects range are the Scorpions???



:chrome:

Smoking Frog
14-05-2006, 01:20
Keep in mind that scorpions as troops was just my personal speculation. All Gav said was that *some* of the Aspect Warriors were being moved on the force org chart. There may even be prerequisites for that, for all I know (like x, y aspects as troops if you have an Autarch, for example).

So don't get any particular aspect set in a new, specific slot solely on my speculation.

As you are, so am I speculating. And all the warseers out there will be too. ;)

dave
14-05-2006, 02:08
If the EOT type lists are going, does that mean Mutants and Traitor Guard will soon be obsolete? I've just put together a pile of both. Before I waste my time painting them, does anyone have any clarification on this?
Cheers.

squigsnok
14-05-2006, 02:15
If the EOT type lists are going, does that mean Mutants and Traitor Guard will soon be obsolete? I've just put together a pile of both. Before I waste my time painting them, does anyone have any clarification on this?
Cheers.

EOT, Armageddon and Craftworld are out of the UKGT, and the UKGT only for the moment. I'm not wanting to hyjack this thread for the topic, so shimmey on over to this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34993) or this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34753) for more info and discussion.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 02:47
Voss, did you get an idea of what slot the Guardians would be in? You mentioned a support role. Are they going to change their classification from troops to say heavy support?

-Malakai

Maybe what they'll do is stuff like: Want to take an anti-grav platform? Here are two Guardians to go with it. Want to take a heavy support platform? Here are two more Guardians to go with it. Want to take a War Walker? Here's a Guardian pilot. Want to charge a unit of seasoned warriors into battle? Here are some Dire Avengers. :)

Killshot
14-05-2006, 03:05
FW:
IA5 is just being started
- Death Korps are the Imperial army
- Traitors are the bad guys
- Siege Titan
- Daemon Engines
- 2007 release



Did they say they were releasing traitor models or maybe some bitz to add to cadians?

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
14-05-2006, 03:05
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but Dire Avenger catapults are now 18" assault 3. Cannons are rending. Warwalkers are much tougher, and wraithlords are either more expensive/ limited, though I think more expensive.

I managed to talk to Gav Thorpe at an Irish restaraunt, and ended up chillin with the guy for like half an hour. He said Eldar codex is due out tail end of october up to mid november, because they haven't finished playtesting everything. The guardians are staying completely the same, though.

From the talk I had with another guy who was with him, dark eldar are not even on anyones mind yet. They want to finish Eldar and then do Orks, and Dark Angels after that. Plastic drop pods are coming out with Dark Angels.

Best thing I heard all day was from the forgeworld rep saying that the Krieg troops squads will be coming out late September of this year, while the rough riders will be coming out in november, and the rest in 2007. He wasn't clear on it but they are doing something very special with them. Maybe they get special units? New tanks?

Oh, and the new army other than ordo xenos will be a xenos army, not allied with anyone (rumor of course, it is a few years away, but I caught a conversation between a few of the VIPs about it).

Jon_Irenicus
14-05-2006, 03:24
But weren´t cannons confirmed not to be rending?

And about that new race, any more details? (Though if we think about it, it´s a bit redundant; a new race will come out, eventually :) )

@Smoking Frog: I know we were talking about elves, but that sig could´ve been made a little less "happy" if you stuck the "provided they´re ladies" bit :p

squigsnok
14-05-2006, 03:26
I managed to talk to Gav Thorpe at an Irish restaraunt, and ended up chillin with the guy for like half an hour.

That does sound a little like wierd stalker talk there. You followed him to an italian resaurant? :D :p

Aaaaaaaanyway, I've got high hopes for the eldar codex, and more for the ork codex. It's just a matter of holding on for a few more months and waiting to see what shows up. I always like the few months before codexes are released when we get a whole load of rumours through, and then when the codex is released theres alot of "Is this a typo, my bolters aren't rending we were told they'd be". Its also nice to see what makes it. I for one would like to see those drop pods.....

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
14-05-2006, 03:35
That does sound a little like wierd stalker talk there. You followed him to an italian resaurant? :D

Aaaaaaaanyway, I've got high hopes for the eldar codex, and more for the ork codex. It's just a matter of holding on for a few more months and waiting to see what shows up. I always like the few months before codexes are released when we get a whole load of rumours through, and then when the codex is released theres alot of "Is this a typo, my bolters aren't rending we were told they'd be". Its also nice to see what makes it. I for one would like to see those drop pods.....

Nah, I was there setting up, went to lunch with a few guys I met there, and while we were about to leave Gav came in...I was like "Oh, *****...I might have to volunteer around here some more :D"

About the cannon...I'm not so sure about that, I heard lot's of talk about it. They did say they tested it, but thats all I really heard. It's mostly wishful thinking on my part :D

Eldar codex is going to be SICK though. And the drop pods are not confirmed, but they are a VERY close possibility. Dark Angels will have something special wih drop pods that will warrant them to come out with that specific codex.

I can't wait for those damn eldar though....even though the new banshees and fire dragons look almost EXACTLY like the old ones. The dire avengers have a lot of neat little things going on. Oh, and they will be the basis of an eldar army now, not guardians. At least they should be with those sick-ass guns of theirs:chrome:

Still learning
14-05-2006, 03:52
did they have any new Death korps stuff on display? or any more news on em.

ooh goodie can't wait....... (goes and checks bank balance)

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
14-05-2006, 04:10
did they have any new Death korps stuff on display? or any more news on em.

ooh goodie can't wait....... (goes and checks bank balance)


Other than the actual troops squads will be out september, nope, nothing yet. But I can say for a fact that the death korps look much better up close.

Voss
14-05-2006, 05:11
I'd imagine this is like codex Chaos - generic list with a pageor two for each of the craftwaord variants with some special wargeer, force choices.

:chrome:

Nope. Gav was *very* specific on this. *NO* variant army lists in the eldar codex. Everything (ie, craftworld armies) will be handled with the main list, with just a few quirky things- like the Court of the Young King (which he mentioned specifically), and special rules for Wild Rider chieftans that won't be carried over (which wasn't mentioned, but seems likely to end up as 'HQ choice on jetbike' rather than the specific wild rider rules).

@h4xx0rz. the only thing you mentioned, that he mentioned at the seminar, was the 18" range for DAs. Assault 3 with the increased ranged seems iffy.
He was also very vague on what was coming next year (eldar are going to run into next year from what the guy next to him at the tables (Tim? US guy, I think) said.
Gav did mention (at the seminar) that drop pods were *not* in production, and it would likely be at at least 2 years before any surfaced, as they weren't currently working on them. Also, from the way he addressed an 'Orks, when?' question, they didn't seem to be next...
Dark Eldar, were, however, a ways off.

silverstu
14-05-2006, 07:05
Cheers for the info guys- nice to hear a few things- Jes doing the Autarch sounds excellent> I'll be intereste to see how my wild rider force changes with the new list too. A bit gutted that the jetbikes aren't getting anythig new by the sounds of things- although Jes doing them again in the future is good I was hoping for new riders and new spears but with all the gubbins on the DA sprue I think some conversions should be easy enough. Thanks again.
Stu.

stahly
14-05-2006, 07:37
No craftworld variant lists? Dude, that sucks. That's like cramming all space marine chapters in one list, only remarkable difference the paint job. I'm so pissed of it.
I always liked Ulthwe not because of the Seer Council but their Black Guard and loads of Guardians. Now, that Guardians won't change and my BS4/WS4 will be gone, too, I don't see a point what makes Ulthwe characteristic when the main forces are now aspects. And USF seems to be gone, too.
Dude, it would have been 6 ********** pages, one for each craftworld like in the current craftworld.
Damn! And I was so fond of the new models.

75hastings69
14-05-2006, 08:11
Some really interesting info there, thanks everyone who had some input. I already knew about DA, BA then SW from a source at GW so it is nice to have it confirmed (wonder if SW will get 13th co Termies?). I know it isn't the right thread for it but I wish someone had taken a picture of the WFB O&G army book cover, and found out what plastics they are getting (crosses fingers wishing for plastic savage orcs).

Death Korps stuff looks to have real potential, I will be watching with interest.

geoffkemp
14-05-2006, 08:34
In all seriousness, if they make craftworld lists doable with traits/doctrines or whatever, thats fine. But I would like a bit of background or a little section devoted to each main craftworld listing the doctrines/traits to take to do the army, sort of what you have at the back of the gaurd codex but more developed. Plus the original worlds should get an extra doctrine, ala cadian gaurd armies who have an extra. I would be cool with that.

I was thinking along those lines as an effective way of implementing the craftworlds, through a use of the doctrines / traits system, with the main craft worlds being detailed in such a way as the better know marine chapters and Guard formations were in the back of their respective codices. Failing that, an implementation like the Chaos Codex.


Keep in mind that scorpions as troops was just my personal speculation. All Gav said was that *some* of the Aspect Warriors were being moved on the force org chart. There may even be prerequisites for that, for all I know (like x, y aspects as troops if you have an Autarch, for example).

Interesting Idea, I take it you mean sort of like If a Chaos lord takes a max, then those Elite choices with that mark become Troops ?? But in this case if the Autrach takes am "aspect of War" then that Warrior aspect becomes a troops choice ???

Luna de hierro
14-05-2006, 12:41
So nice to ear about the dark eldars after so many years of silence... :cries:

i really hope they come out, the 40K universe needs something else than what we see on the tables... marines, chaos marines, marines, TAU, chaos marines, TAU... :evilgrin:

NakedFisherman
14-05-2006, 13:22
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but Dire Avenger catapults are now 18" assault 3. Cannons are rending. Warwalkers are much tougher, and wraithlords are either more expensive/ limited, though I think more expensive.

I managed to talk to Gav Thorpe at an Irish restaraunt, and ended up chillin with the guy for like half an hour. He said Eldar codex is due out tail end of october up to mid november, because they haven't finished playtesting everything. The guardians are staying completely the same, though.

From the talk I had with another guy who was with him, dark eldar are not even on anyones mind yet. They want to finish Eldar and then do Orks, and Dark Angels after that. Plastic drop pods are coming out with Dark Angels.

Best thing I heard all day was from the forgeworld rep saying that the Krieg troops squads will be coming out late September of this year, while the rough riders will be coming out in november, and the rest in 2007. He wasn't clear on it but they are doing something very special with them. Maybe they get special units? New tanks?

Oh, and the new army other than ordo xenos will be a xenos army, not allied with anyone (rumor of course, it is a few years away, but I caught a conversation between a few of the VIPs about it).

I'm calling BS.

A playtester said the codex was already done playtesting.

Creep
14-05-2006, 14:26
I asked, and they told me that they werent thinking about Dark Eldar yet, because they wanted to finish codex: Eldar. Finish playtesting was probably just some speculation, but the codex is definitely coming out in october/november.

What is next is a throwup between Orks and a ******* Space Marine chapter, even though Orks definitely need a revamp.

Karhedron
14-05-2006, 15:51
I always liked Ulthwe not because of the Seer Council but their Black Guard and loads of Guardians. Now, that Guardians won't change and my BS4/WS4 will be gone, too, I don't see a point what makes Ulthwe characteristic when the main forces are now aspects.
There are always winners and losers when a codex gets revamped. All is not lost though, count your Black Guardian models as Dire Avengers and say that their superior training makes them equal. You can still field an army that resembles the old Ulthwe list.


However,the side benefit is that it benefits from stability of models. Your Tactical Marines will still be the same Tactical marines 7 years from now, for instance. Theywon#t be magically obsolete.
Models never become obsolete. The current plastic Marines are practically the same as the metal Mark VII marines that were released 15 years ago. Granted they are more detailed and more easily customized but you would be hard pressed to tell the difference until you get up close.

Also I still play with 1st edition models and they haven't stopped working yet. ;)

lord_blackfang
14-05-2006, 15:56
Some Ork news I nicked from Dakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&forumid=6&postid=68462&view=topic

as posted by Voodoo Boys



ust got home and before I pass out to sleep I figured I'd post some of the juicy tidbits I got from the "New Product" seminar they had at GD today.

This all came from Gav Thorpe who was giving the presentation:

He kind of reconfirmed the whole modular vehicle kits for Orks that they were working on, he said they did a lot of design work on this for Orks last year.

Going by what was hinted at, I'm guessing that Dark Angels will come out beginning 2007 and that Orks will be after them. panzee are supposedly the release for XMas.

Dire Avengers Shuriken Catipults are going to be 18" according to their powerpoint presentation. He did clarify that Guardian Shuriken Cats will still be at 12".

Now for more Ork specific stuff:

My question was basically if they were planning on keeping stuff like KoS and the other Klanz rules in the next Ork codex, and apparantly he said that was their plan for it, to make it like the other codexes so you can highly customize the army to what you want it to be! Huzzah for KoS and the other Klanz sticking around, definitely good news to hear.

Oh and there was someone who asked a Ork question ahead of me that got this little tidbit out of him: They're supposedly bringing back the Shokk Attack gun.

One thing he mentioned was that when they did the original Ork codex was they tried to stay away from clans since they were kind of silly comedy stuff, but that they wanted to take Orks into the darker meaner kind of realm and that the clans if done right wouldn't be comedy but could be very cool and that's how they were trying to do them.

stahly
14-05-2006, 16:06
Why get Orks Klans and Eldar don't. That's so silly.
There are people that don't want to play an Eldar army like Biel-Tan.

lord_blackfang
14-05-2006, 16:10
Why get Orks Klans and Eldar don't. That's so silly.
There are people that don't want to play an Eldar army like Biel-Tan.

Well from what we've heard a lot of Eldar units will be moved to Troops, so you might be able to field any current Craftworld variety using the basic list. Maybe they'll make it HQ dependant, like Marks of Chaos ;)

Jonik
14-05-2006, 16:11
And thats why they are making the eldar book more flexible.

Da Reddaneks
14-05-2006, 16:26
I managed to talk to Gav Thorpe at an Irish restaraunt ...

there is such a thing as Irish restaurant? i thought that was called a bar.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 17:20
I'm calling BS.

A playtester said the codex was already done playtesting.

...because all playtesters know all there is to know about the codex? :)


Well from what we've heard a lot of Eldar units will be moved to Troops, so you might be able to field any current Craftworld variety using the basic list. Maybe they'll make it HQ dependant, like Marks of Chaos ;)

I'm holding back a small tsunami of dissappointment here, but I'm going to keep it together because I find it hard to believe that GW would make every Eldar Craftworld into one big homogenous list. I'm going to wait, therefore, to see just what comes of it all and I expect there will be some HQ-driven rules that dictate what happens to the rest of the list. So we'll see.


there is such a thing as Irish restaurant? i thought that was called a bar.

Haha :)

Oh, hey... here's some more from that afore-mentioned Dakka thread:

I quite enjoyed the high-res clips they showed of the upcoming PC games as well :-D

A few more tidbits some of us were able to extract from Gav: Dark Eldar will not be in the Eldar Codex. Dark Eldar will get their own codex, but much further down the road. Harlequins will be in the Eldar Codex.

Gav pretty much confirmed that they will be continually but slowly working on "commander" kits, like the Space Marine Commander one (which is so nice IMO), for both 40k and Fantasy armies.

After the success of the plastic giant kit, Gav again went over GW's intent on making similar kits in the future for dragons and monsters and perhaps chariots.

Dark Angels *will* be the next army to receive a codex after the Eldar, AND Cypher (Sp?) will most likely be in the Dark Angels codex (right from the mouth of Gav :-D)

silashand
14-05-2006, 17:26
Variant army lists are going away (and this applies across game systems, as a general policy, though they aren't forcing anything into limbo as yet). As are books that are army/supplement/scenarios. (which is why Xenos is not coming soon, as the other Ordos books were confused in this regard. Plus the Deathwatch aren't enough of an army in comparison to the Grey Knights or Sisters)

As long as I can still field my all-Sisters army I'll be happy. A combined Inquistorial codex would be cool though with who your Inquisitor was determining what you could bring. I still like the Inquisitorial mandate idea, i.e. ordering troops from the local IG, planetary defenses or Arbites. Would seem that if they combine everything then they would have to drop a *LOT* of the options available which would suck.

I really do hate GW sometimes...

Cheers, Gary

ionfish
14-05-2006, 18:07
To the people complaining about losing the Craftworld lists: please, wait until you see the codex before the bitching begins. The perceived loss of individuality may be amply compensated for by a flexible and interesting armylist chock-full of desirable units. Either way, we don't know for sure exactly how things will work out until the new codex arrives.

Armies change between releases. Chances are none of us will be have the same armylists after the new codex as we did before it--and on the whole, that's a good thing. The Eldar army as it stands is wracked with problems. We may even see more interesting, individual and winnable-with armies after the new codex than we do now. I certainly hope that's the case, but again, we won't know just what will work and what won't until the codex comes out. Try to reign in your disappointment until you know all the facts.

lord_blackfang
14-05-2006, 18:32
They took custom Hive Fleets out of the Tyranid codex. Variety hasn't dropped any. In fact, it has increased.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 18:35
Agreed with Blackfang. Let's not dirty our diapers just yet. GW knows that variety is not just what makes armies cool; it's also what keeps us spending money. Just because one option is being cut of doesn't mean that three more don't open up in its place.

NakedFisherman
14-05-2006, 18:37
...because all playtesters know all there is to know about the codex? :)

No, but they know when playtesting is done I'm sure.

A lot of the other information from that post seems to be pure crap anyway.

Assuming the information posted is incorrect -- why did the poster even post it? It just amazes me how much crap needs to be sifted through because of liars.

Also, stop double posting. There's two double posts in a row...

t-tauri
14-05-2006, 18:40
They took custom Hive Fleets out of the Tyranid codex. Variety hasn't dropped any. In fact, it has increased.
The custom Hive Fleet rules were a nightmare, as are some of the abuses with the Eldar lists. Getting rid of them won't be a problem. I'd be surprised if the new Eldar codex invalidates more than a few choices. Maybe the last twenty warlocks in the seer council might be drawing their P45s but most armies won't change much I'd venture.


Maybe it's the external playtesting which is over with the final polishes still going on inside the Studio?

Orbital
14-05-2006, 18:42
No, but they know when playtesting is done I'm sure.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. What's more, you just went on a big rant about how the world is full of lying liars. Does that not include playtesters for some reason?

I'm not saying that anyone is or is not telling the truth; only that from our vantage point there's no real way to be really sure. What's more, two different people can be honestly reporting conflicting information that they've received, and the discrepency might be happening further up the food chain.


Also, stop double posting. There's two double posts in a row...

Take your wagging finger out of my face, Sparky. You're just pointing out things I'm not supposed to be doing as a way of diverting attention from the subject of discussion.

Krootman
14-05-2006, 18:47
If im just reposting deleate this or move this.

-Starcannon is staying the same minus it loseing 1 shot
-Avatar is going to be on par with the blodthruster and get a big points bump
-shurken cata is not getting changed accept for dire avengers where its going to be 18 inches
-There will be NO changes to the falcon
-They are droping all special chars cept for eldread but they are adding the prince from inyden who saved the craftworld (forget his name)
-The harlquins will be in this dex (gav said so himself)
-The craftworld codex is going to be void and they are adding a few codex spefic rules in, like the rangers lose the chart but can upgrade all its rangers to pathfinders for x amount of points. (the wd editor told me this, he said he looked at the codex which was still in pdf format)

So there is what i got out of gav, I wish I coulda gotten more but my friend whos a gw employee didnt think to get as much outta gav as he could when they went to the bar and he got blitzed wit him the night before lol

Sildani
14-05-2006, 18:48
Yriel, the Pirate Prince.

The Emperor
14-05-2006, 18:55
Isn't Eldrad dead?

Sucks about the Phoenix Lords, though. They were some of my favorite Special Characters in the game. :(

Although
14-05-2006, 18:56
-There will be NO changes to the falcon


I'd still bet on the Holo-field getting a make-over.



-They are droping all special chars cept for eldread but they are adding the prince from inyden who saved the craftworld (forget his name)


I did expect ’memorial rules’ for Eldrad. Yriel would be a nice surprise.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
14-05-2006, 18:58
Isn't Eldrad dead?

Yeah, and?

There are quite a few special characters that are dead, in relation to the date which 40k is currently at.

Rob

Fallen Angel
14-05-2006, 18:59
well if thats true, thats my eldar army not changing then....but of course im taking this with a big pinch of salt.

RampagingRavener
14-05-2006, 18:59
Odd. I would have expected the guy Eldrad left as his successor to be a Special Character instead of the Big E himself, since he's dead. Still, nice to hear about the other stuff, specially the Starcannon info.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 18:59
Yriel would rock. I currently play Iyanden, and the special character associated with that Craftworld is so uninteresting I can't even remember her name.

The Emperor
14-05-2006, 19:05
Yeah, and?

There are quite a few special characters that are dead, in relation to the date which 40k is currently at.

Rob

Aren't a lot of them being taken out of the updated Codex's, though? Solar Macharius, for instance, didn't make it into the updated Codex: Imperial Guard. And I doubt Captain Tycho will be in the next Codex: Blood Angels. Just find it odd that Eldrad's staying in, while they're eliminating some of the still living characters (like the Phoenix Lords. I don't really give a damn about the rest from the 3rd edition Codex. Like Orbital, I can't remember a single name). Myself, I'd rather see a mini of his successor, the Phoenix Lords, and a couple of new ones. Though Yriel's a great choice, and it's fantastic that they're making him.

Sildani
14-05-2006, 19:11
My only fear about the new Eldar Codex is there'll be no room, or possibility, for an Ulthwe Strike Force - or USF-analog - list. That would be a crying shame.

Which reminds me - any word on if ALL Guardians will get the "Tactical Withdrawal" special rule?

Orbital
14-05-2006, 19:14
My only fear about the new Eldar Codex is there'll be no room, or possibility, for an Ulthwe Strike Force - or USF-analog - list. That would be a crying shame.

Well, you know me. I'm with you 100% there.

Sildani
14-05-2006, 19:15
Yriel would rock. I currently play Iyanden, and the special character associated with that Craftworld is so uninteresting I can't even remember her name.

Iyanna Arienal. Geez, I'm like this font spewing out Eldar names today...

As for Eldrad, I'm glad they're keeping him. His successor might be Janus Darke/Auric Stormcloud, and that would've been simply awful.

primarch16
14-05-2006, 19:17
I agree, eldrad is gone, get over it GW, lets have a new eldar big guy :D.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 19:19
As for Eldrad, I'm glad they're keeping him. His successor might be Janus Darke/Auric Stormcloud...

Oh, God... seconded!


I agree, eldrad is gone, get over it GW, lets have a new eldar big guy :D.

You never know. He may return as Eldrad the White. Maybe he comes at the turn of the tide...

Orinoco
14-05-2006, 19:53
using the dire avenger entry for painted black gaurdian squads sounds like a good idea if they dont have their own entry.

Lyinar
14-05-2006, 19:57
-Avatar is going to be on par with the blodthruster and get a big points bump

Blodthruster? :eek:

That sounds like some kind of weird Slaaneshi Daemon instead of a Greater Daemon of Khorne!

Tom
14-05-2006, 19:58
Or, all guardians are black and TW. Would be a wonderful rule. And of course, nobody's forcing you to rally.

Darkseer
14-05-2006, 20:06
So to summaries, the Eldar Codex isn't really changing that much.

Starcannons get 1 less shot, avatar might be worth taking, new Autarch character and Farseers get harder.
Shuriken catapults remain crap.

I for one am totally turned off the Eldar once again. I wanted to field an army with an infantry back bone, not a force full of vypers.

stahly
14-05-2006, 20:07
Starcannon Heavy 2?
Did they gave in to all the bitching of marine players who cram 10+ asscanons in their lists at the same time?
And no craftworld-specific lists which means loosing Black Guardians?

Oh boy.
And I'm Ulthwe and I don't care for Dire Avengers.

Darkseer
14-05-2006, 20:12
:cheese:
Starcannon Heavy 2?
Did they gave in to all the bitching of marine players who cram 10+ asscanons in their lists at the same time?


Dude, you have obviously never faced the Saim Hann starcannon army :cheese:

Mr Maloke
14-05-2006, 20:18
So does the Starcannon get 2 or 3 shots?

Orbital
14-05-2006, 20:19
So does the Starcannon get 2 or 3 shots?

I'm perfectly fine with the Starcannon shots being reduced by 1/3 so long as the points cost is reduced by 1/3 as well.

Malakai
14-05-2006, 20:48
I'm perfectly fine with the Starcannon shots being reduced by 1/3 so long as the points cost is reduced by 1/3 as well.


I agree with that. I would just like to see GW make the heavy weapons all viable. No more no-brainer heavy choices.

-Malakai

Creep
14-05-2006, 20:52
From what I found out, Guardians are not changing at all. Think of the tau revamp...nothing THAT far out there that you never would have though of.

Forget Eldrad, I like making my own characters and giving them a history and what not, much cooler I think. The new autarchs are going to be sick, and there was a rumor going around about new psy powers, but its still just that, a rumor.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 20:54
From what I found out, Guardians are not changing at all.

Found out from where?

Yarick Zan
14-05-2006, 20:55
I'm perfectly fine with the Starcannon shots being reduced by 1/3 so long as the points cost is reduced by 1/3 as well.

for its points cost to drop by 1/3 they would probably have to reduce all the models stats by 1/3. so in other words what your hoping for probably wont happen.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 20:56
for its points cost to drop by 1/3 they would probably have to reduce all the models stats by 1/3. so in other words what your hoping for probably wont happen.

If a weapon shoots 1/3 fewer times then why shouldn't it be reduced by 1/3 the points? And what do other model stats have to do with it?

NakedFisherman
14-05-2006, 21:07
If a weapon shoots 1/3 fewer times then why shouldn't it be reduced by 1/3 the points?

Because perhaps it was undercosted to begin with.

Tom
14-05-2006, 21:09
Now the problem here is not whether a shot is worth a third of the points. It might be exponential.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 21:09
Because perhaps it was undercosted to begin with.

A Starcannon costs an average of 32.5 points. If you call that undercosted, well...

Tom
14-05-2006, 21:11
Hmm, good point. Yeah, 21 points sounds about right for an effectively Assault 2 S6 AP2 weapon.

Festus
14-05-2006, 21:18
Hi

A Starcannon costs an average of 32.5 points. If you call that undercosted, well...
For a weapon that will kill about 6 Marines @ 15 points min. each over the course of a game?

Never! :D

Greetings
Festus

Orbital
14-05-2006, 21:21
Hi

For a weapon that will kill about 6 Marines @ 15 points min. each over the course of a game?

You can't assign points cost to a weapon based solely on what it can kill. A single Bright Lance could kill 6 Land Raiders in a game, which rings in at 1500 points. If a Starcannon can kill 6 Marines (90 points) in one game and averages a cost of 30 points itself, should each Bright Lance then cost 500 points?

p.s. A Starcannon can statistically kill 7.5 Marines who stand out in the open, turkey-shoot style.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-05-2006, 21:24
Hmm, the more I hear about Shuriken Catapults staying the same and Guardians too, the less I want to resurect my eldar army and possibly start playing 40k again. Will have to be a mighty impressive Codex then, if they are keeping the current guardian meatshields...

Even if I don't hardly use guardians, it just annoys me. Ah well, easier with not playing them anyway. Don't have enough time to play my current armies, don't really need to add my eldars to the list of armies I'd like to play with. But it will be interesting to see what the end result is.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 21:26
Hmm, the more I hear about Shuriken Catapults staying the same and Guardians too, the less I want to resurect my eldar army and possibly start playing 40k again.

We do not have any information on the new Guardians. Odds are they aren't going to be made uber-powerful, but we are not even slightly aware yet of how their rules will be changed. Don't be discouraged yet; they may be given some abilities or context that make them rock.

ionfish
14-05-2006, 21:28
Yriel's a bit of an odd choice. He's a fleet commander, not a close-combat mincing machine...

Lyinar
14-05-2006, 21:30
Well, here we go again with the 'z0MG t3h sky is falling!!!!' posts...

Orbital
14-05-2006, 21:36
Yriel's a bit of an odd choice. He's a fleet commander, not a close-combat mincing machine...

You always bring up points I never think of, Ionfish.

I don't have a problem with Yriel being an infantry choice, but I hope they put some fluff behind it so it doesn't seem weird that I'm putting a ship's captain into HTH with 100 terminators and coming out alive...

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-05-2006, 21:37
We do not have any information on the new Guardians.


I might be tired, but wasn't Gav quoted earlier as saying they wouldn't change? Along with the Catapult.



Odds are they aren't going to be made uber-powerful

Not looking for that. I just don't want to see another codex with them as cheap meatshield style troops. Thats all. I don't really care how 'good' they are, the current ones just feels all wrong, and really drags the codex down.

So even if I don't used many/any Guardians, thats the first thing I'll be looking for in the rules.

Festus
14-05-2006, 21:37
Hi

You can't assign points cost to a weapon based solely on what it can kill. A single Bright Lance could kill 6 Land Raiders in a game, which rings in at 1500 points. If a Starcannon 90 points in one game and averages a cost of 30 points itself, should each Bright Lance then cost 500 points?
I see your point, but unfortunately your logic is failing: A Starcannon *can* kill 18 fully equipped Marines during a game, costing some 300 to 600 points, depending on equipment et al., or it *can* kill even more expensive models.

But it *will* kill at least triple its own cost, making it undercosted in my book :(

Festus

Orbital
14-05-2006, 21:40
Hi

I see your point, but unfortunately your logic is failing: A Starcannon *can* kill 18 fully equipped Marines during a game, costing some 300 to 600 points, depending on equipment et al., or it *can* kill even more expensive models.

But it *will* kill at least triple its own cost, making it undercosted in my book :(

I was just using your own stats.

I don't think my logic is failing. A Storm Bolter can kill 2 Terminators per turn, 12 per game. How much does a Storm Bolter cost?

Venkh
14-05-2006, 21:42
Hi

I see your point, but unfortunately your logic is failing: A Starcannon *can* kill 18 fully equipped Marines during a game, costing some 300 to 600 points, depending on equipment et al., or it *can* kill even more expensive models.

But it *will* kill at least triple its own cost, making it undercosted in my book :(

Festus

Not if you kill or outmaneovre the dude carrying it.

I always thought the problem was overavailability, especially in the Siam Hann list.

Anyway i think we should leave the old starcannon argument where it belongs - the past. The book has been written and no ammount of girning from either side of the fence will change its profile.

Bregalad
14-05-2006, 21:45
Yes, please not another star cannon discussion, just keep to the news and rumours here. Okay?

Ravenheart
14-05-2006, 21:52
To steer away form the star cannon discussion, I'd like to ask if there were any in depth Dark Angels info.

Thanks a bunch.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 21:54
I'm not familiar with Dark Angels, Can anyone tell me what it is about their codex that could use an update so that I know what you guys are talking about when you discuss them? Thanks!

Bregalad
14-05-2006, 22:03
IIRC the rumours about the Dark Angels go like this:

Release next year, seems to be before the Orks and after Eldar (beginning April?). Get their own full Codex like the Black Templars. Some blurry rumours said that they get some special drop pod rules to beef up the Codex. Rumours are divided, whether the plastic drop pot will be released at the same time. Mini releases should be comparable to Black Templar (metal characters and squad, plastic accessory sprues), concept sketches were posted here.

That's all I can remember.


From the talk I had with another guy who was with him, dark eldar are not even on anyones mind yet. They want to finish Eldar and then do Orks, and Dark Angels after that. Plastic drop pods are coming out with Dark Angels.


He was also very vague on what was coming next year (eldar are going to run into next year from what the guy next to him at the tables (Tim? US guy, I think) said.
Gav did mention (at the seminar) that drop pods were *not* in production, and it would likely be at at least 2 years before any surfaced, as they weren't currently working on them. Also, from the way he addressed an 'Orks, when?' question, they didn't seem to be next...
Dark Eldar, were, however, a ways off.



Going by what was hinted at, I'm guessing that Dark Angels will come out beginning 2007 and that Orks will be after them. panzee are supposedly the release for XMas.

Warp Zero
14-05-2006, 22:06
About standard Guardians and their 12" catapults: I was a big hater of this for the longest time. Still am....actually. I don't like how, due to the rules, the role of the Guardians has become rather ubsurd.

But....

...a new Codex is coming out and I have hope. Yes, we heard that they'll be keeping the range to 12". However, that doesn't mean that the role of the Guardian hasn't changed.

Originally, the "idea" behind the Guardians was to move quickly into position, soften up an opponent with short ranged fire, then the left-overs are assaulted by scorpions or banshees. Or variations on this one-two punch combo. If this combo worked then I'd be fine with the 12" short range. But the reason why I don't like it currently is because you can't really do this combo efficiently anymore. Due to the new 4th edition, your passengers can't assault out of a transport that just moved. This in turn made it difficult to deliver the second part of the combo. Running alongside the Guardians with Hth specialist was a no-no . The enemy would just shoot at the scorps and banshees instead.

If, in the new upcoming Codex, there is a way to deliver Guardians and their supporting units into position better .... then I'm okay with the 12" range. But if there isn't ....then I'll be mighty mad at waiting 8 or so years for a broken codex to replace my current broken codex.

But until then, we should probably not assume that Guardians are going to be still lame just based solely on the info that their catapults are still 12". There might be other Eldar things in the Codex that will make it work better this time. Let's wait and see.

Ravenheart
14-05-2006, 22:09
I'm not familiar with Dark Angels, Can anyone tell me what it is about their codex that could use an update so that I know what you guys are talking about when you discuss them? Thanks!

What? Don't tell me, you have never seen one of those 'new codex wishlists'. Dark angel players are especially active in that area. ;)

What NEEDS an update ... hmm?! Depends on what kind of player you are; marine-haters will probably say "Not En oder marinez armie, teh doom", but as a honest DA player I can think of some update worth areas.

To give you a sketchy example:

There are some outdated rules, that became virtually obslete with the 4th ed. as well as overprized units without real benefit. An update of wargear and spec. characters is also needed.

Also a stronger fluff - armylist tie is needed in some areas.

EDIT: Cheers for the info Bregalad.
But I must say I'm suprized. Angels were until now never considered to be specially different in the use of drop pods. It may have some connection with the Rock, but still; I can think on more suitable armies for that rule like Space Wolves.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
14-05-2006, 22:11
@Warp Zero

Of course the could be thinking that as most people already have bucket loads of Guardians, we'll just make the Dire Avengers nice and sparkly with fancy new models, hey aren't they a troop choice.. and bang everyone now uses Dire Avengers as their core force?

Okay thats probably worse case scenario. ;)

Krootman
14-05-2006, 22:33
I didnt see my post and see anyone talk about the starcanon, which gav confermed will only have 2 shots.

Orbital
14-05-2006, 22:34
I didnt see my post and see anyone talk about the starcanon, which gav confermed will only have 2 shots.

I don't suppose you could re-phrase all of that, huh?

Morathi's Darkest Sin
14-05-2006, 22:39
Oh yeah I was online from work earlier for like five mins, but I'm sure I saw someone mention Yriel, was I dreaming.... subconcious delusions forced into reality as I really want him as a character so much, and I have done ever since I owned my original Eldar army back in 92-93.. that I tried to convert him myself. Was I deluded, or is there an Eldar GOD! :cheese:

Anyone??? :angel:

Ironhand
14-05-2006, 23:19
All in all the I'm reasonably hopeful that the new Eldar Codex will be a considerable improvement.

Bregalad
15-05-2006, 00:27
There was some thread closing and merging due to parallel discussions on Eldar-Baltimore-news. The special character discussion landed in this thread, don't know about Krootmans post, you might have to search.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
15-05-2006, 00:42
-They are droping all special chars cept for eldread but they are adding the prince from inyden who saved the craftworld (forget his name)

If this isn't true Krootman I'm going hunt you down like a duck. :p ;)

But if it is.. oh yes.. Iyanden here I come. :D

t.y.a.
15-05-2006, 00:46
You always bring up points I never think of, Ionfish.

I was wondering about that, and dug out my dogeared copy of Chapter Approved - Book of the Astronomican from Rogue Trader days, and Yriel was a combat monster, even compared to the major hero class of the other races. Although interestingly, the fluff and stat line are directly opposite the entry on Squats and we all know what hapened to them...

Not that it really bears any relevance to the current game, but I'd still love to see Yriel get updated and hopefully a mini.

Sildani
15-05-2006, 02:24
Hopefully, too, Yriel will be able to call down an Orbital Bombardment. That'd be nifty.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 02:26
Hopefully, too, Yriel will be able to call down an Orbital Bombardment. That'd be nifty.

Something about that comment makes me feel a little like I should be watching over my shoulder...

The Dude
15-05-2006, 03:53
I'm loving the idea of a single Codex that, with absolutely NO changes or special units, can be used to represent all established factions.

All Codices should be like this in my opinion. It would really cut down on the number of people taking certain "specialist lists" just to have access to uber-units/combos that are only there to try to create the individuality that, realistically, is wholly the responsibility of the gamer to create.

I liked the Traits for Marines and the Doctrines for Guard, but in the end, this method is way better. Bravo GW.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 03:57
I'll need to see it. I'm nervous, I'll admit. Losing the Craftworld variants is something that makes me nervous. I want my army to have character and unique style, and so far the only way to get that into the Eldar list is to go with Craftworld variants.

But, as we all know, it's a new codex... and the people who want us to have bigger, better, more characterful armies (so we buy more stuff) will, no doubt, flesh out options to make it possible for us to make shooty, assaulty, stealthy, hit-and-run or sit-and-fire armies as we wish. I just can't imagine it, so I'm holding my breath... it could either be the best thing to happen to my army or the worst.

At present, I'm expecting "best".

ChrisLS
15-05-2006, 04:05
From the seminar. Variant army lists are going away (and this applies across game systems, as a general policy, though they aren't forcing anything into limbo as yet). As are books that are army/supplement/scenarios. (which is why Xenos is not coming soon, as the other Ordos books were confused in this regard. Plus the Deathwatch aren't enough of an army in comparison to the Grey Knights or Sisters)

I do hope there is a way to work in Deathwing armies - I would truly miss playing my Terminator army simply because of the challenge it involves having so few minis. Not to mention it is one of the oldest bits of fluff in the game. If not, I'll be sad, and might have to occasionally field Dark Angels armies with two five man tactical squads and three full squads of terminators. Oh, and command squads of them, too.

Hellebore
15-05-2006, 04:09
I'll just say straight up that I won't be happy with the eldar until the rules suit my interpretation of them.;)

Anyway, as far as I am concerned the Shuripult is the most pathetic gun in the game- why even both using guardians- tau fire warriors equipped with carbines do a better job.

To me, the fact they didn't just fess up to the fact that the original 3rd stats were stupid is due to coddling egos. They couldn't go back and change it because it would imply that the original writer got it wrong:eek: like that ever happens.

The fact that the weapon was TOTALLY nerfed for 3rd ed is the kicker.

If there was any sense of consistency with rules construction SURELY weapons that were identical in stats would STAY identical in stats? I can understand DIFFERENT weapons being created (brightlances aren't lascannons) but identical ones?

THe sonic blaster was identical to the shuriken catapult, so either it should be 12" assault 2 now, or the catapult should be 24" assault2/heavy3.

But I am tired of arguing til I'm blue in the face about the shuriken catapult- until GW decides they really did do an injustice by making it an absurd weapon, nothing I say will really matter.

The new war walkers look absolutely stunning though. I can see how well their new technology has been implemented- there is no way they could have been made 5 years ago.

I prefer the new howling banshee to the 3rd ed ones- Fitzpatrick made oversized charicatures with big hands. The designs on them were cool, but I didn't like the execution.

Personally, I would rather see the guardian catapult at 18" and the Avenger at 24", but that isn't going to happen.

It would also be nice to see stand alone codicies for each of the major craftworlds, like the marine chapters, because surely an entire WORLD has enough character to warrant a codex, if 1000 troops do?

Hellebore

Orbital
15-05-2006, 04:15
But I am tired of arguing til I'm blue in the face about the shuriken catapult...

...two paragraphs later...


Personally, I would rather see the guardian catapult at 18" and the Avenger at 24", but that isn't going to happen.

Not making fun of you Hellebore. Just got a chuckle out of it. :)

This is a small thing, but we might want to keep it in mind: What we're told at events isn't always correct, even if it comes from GW. There was an event a couple months ago that was reported on here where a GW guy (I can't remember his name or the event) listed all the stuff that was going to be released in 2006, mentioning no Eldar, and then said "and that's it". I'm sure someone can fill in the details that I've forgotten.

And now we hear that the codex is out in October and, wow... lookit all those new models! Grav Platform, Rangers, War Walkers, Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons... with more to come.

Sometimes wires get crossed, information changes, things happen. I mention this because we should really wait till we get a better sense of the new codex (like by reading it, for instance) before we write it off.

ChrisLS
15-05-2006, 04:22
I'm not familiar with Dark Angels, Can anyone tell me what it is about their codex that could use an update so that I know what you guys are talking about when you discuss them? Thanks!

I'll try to stay away from excessive wishing, but here are some of the areas in the Dark Angels that need to be addressed:

- Cost of Stubborn be reduced/changed to reflect its similarity to other, similar abilities (say, Marks of Chaos)
- Reworking the Hunt the Fallen rule
- Returning some measure of uniqueness to Deathwing Terminators (we lost the mix/match abilities in the C:SM update)
- Reworking the special DA Only wargear such as the standards and Blades of Reason to be more relevant in the new edition
- Updating Ravenwing rules (using Universal Rules section and changing stats to be more in line with C:SM, not to mention reducing cost)
- Addition of Mortis Pattern Dreadnought to codex (yeah, it's currently in Forgeworld and the rules in IA, but the Tau got Skyrays and Piranhas) OK, that's a wish

Agamemnon2
15-05-2006, 04:44
The new war walkers look absolutely stunning though. I can see how well their new technology has been implemented- there is no way they could have been made 5 years ago.

Well, GW couldn't have made them, but that's only because their tradition is to make plastic kits durable in extreme gaming conditions. They don't really do fine detail all that well. I'm fairly sure a dedicated plastic kit manufacturer could've easily made those Walkers 5 or even 10 years ago. Plus, the use of that same ancient plastic canopy that first premiered with the Vyper kit some 10 years ago... well, it's just a bit silly.

Hellebore
15-05-2006, 04:46
Not making fun of you Hellebore. Just got a chuckle out of it.

Yeah, I have a habit of doing that- I may get tired of it, but I have a high Stamina:p

I hate being optimisitc because when I am, my wishes are usually 'world peace' and 'Catherine Zeta-Jones'- ie unatainable.

So I'll just grumble and moan, because I am less likely to be suprised.

Also, I am liking the idea that the guardians will become support for the aspects, one of the biggest problems with their viability was that the army list tells you they are the mainstay and gives you units inadequate for the job. I can see them being used as heavy weapon platform operators and support crew, with the aspects as the main army.

This is what fans have been clamouring for since they released the 3rd ed rules- it's just I wish they'd fix the glaring technological errors apparent.

As an aside, I have always thought eldar should be equipped with superior armour that is only ignored by AP lower than the save- thus making the save no BETTER but giving it more often.


Hellebore

ChrisLS
15-05-2006, 04:46
Sucks about the Phoenix Lords, though. They were some of my favorite Special Characters in the game. :(

Personally, I won't miss them at all. After having Baharroth go Hero-Hammer on me and wipe out my entire army almost single handedly (anything that can land 20+ S4 power weapon attacks in one round is just wrong, IMO) I'm praising the wisdom of the game designers.

Hellebore
15-05-2006, 04:50
Personally, I won't miss them at all. After having Baharroth go Hero-Hammer on me and wipe out my entire army almost single handedly (anything that can land 20+ S4 power weapon attacks in one round is just wrong, IMO) I'm praising the wisdom of the game designers.

I've always thought the Phoenix lords to be Primarchesque in their prowess, and thus shouldn't really be in the game (c'tan ARE, but we won't go into that:p ).

Seeing as how they can't really die, and have the wisdom of hundreds of exarchs in them (each of which are 'perfect warriors' any way) they seem great in fluff, but no justice has been done to them every incarnation I've seen.

Hellebore

Voss
15-05-2006, 05:15
Was I deluded, or is there an Eldar GOD!


Slaanesh, isn't it?
:D

@ChrisLS- I doubt they'd drop the Deathwing armies. Absurdly well established at this point, and its one of the few things that made the DA distinct from the 'defaulting to Smurfs'. Dropping an entire army like that wouldn't be good... by comparison the craftworld armies are losing a few special rules. Models, units and color schemes are still perfectly valid in 99.9% of all cases. (though maybe not in number of units present at 1500-2000 points, but thats the case with most revisions)

@Orbital- I can understand being nervous, but personally I've always felt that the Eldar (well, the non-Dark Eldar) have had the character and unique style race pretty much locked up for ages. (Rivalled perhaps by the Orks). Since each unit has a specific role, everything you select essentially shapes the role of the army. (Unlike marines, tau or necrons who are essentially saddled with a big chunk of single flavor troops). Of course, I also think 4 out of the 5 roles you mention can be handled well by the current basic codex (with the exception of sit and fire, since they don't have either the range or numbers/profile to compete with other armies in this arena).
I think the new codex well have a greater versatility (just moving jetbikes to troops opens a whole can of options), but without the special rules to cheese out an ultra-specific role. (My army is blue, so I can bog down your reserve rolls! Hurrah!)

Orbital
15-05-2006, 05:18
I doubt they'd drop the Deathwing armies. Absurdly well established at this point...

And the Craftworld lists aren't? Hmm? :)

Voss
15-05-2006, 05:46
Don't just snip. Read the rest of the post.

Aside from the loss of special rules, craftworld themed armies will (for the most part) still be valid, and so don't really count as 'dropped', in the sense of you will never see a Biel Tan/Iyanden/Sam Hain/Altaioc/Ulthwe force on the table again.

You can't do the same with a Deathwing army- you have to have at least a half page of clarifications to say you can have x,y,z hq choices if they're in termi armour, terminators count as troops and whatever waffle you need for dreads and land raiders.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 05:55
Aside from the loss of special rules, craftworld themed armies will (for the most part) still be valid, and so don't really count as 'dropped', in the sense of you will never see a Biel Tan/Iyanden/Sam Hain/Altaioc/Ulthwe force on the table again.

You have a point and I also hope your interpretation of the latest info/rumors is right. Got my fingers crossed!

The Dude
15-05-2006, 06:12
In my opinion, the special rules is what ruins these mini-lists that GW keeps doing as they're invariably created to represent a certain characteristic of the force, but end up being just another unit of doom.

The Traits helped this for SMs, because they allowed different styles of army (fast, shooty etc) without dishing out killer wargear or unique units (with the exception of Shrike, but that's a different story ;))

If this is an indication of the type of list flexibility that future Codices will offer, I'm gonna be one happy chappy.


I doubt they'd drop the Deathwing armies. Absurdly well established at this point, and its one of the few things that made the DA distinct from the 'defaulting to Smurfs'. Dropping an entire army like that wouldn't be good...

My guess would be that it would be a kind of Mini-Traits system with 'Standard' Dark Angels, Deathwing and Ravenwing forces represented by altering force selection choices. If Cypher is included, this could also allow for Unforgiven forces possibly :eyebrows:

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-05-2006, 06:40
And the Craftworld lists aren't? Hmm? :)


Not really, no. Deathwing have been a special formation ever since 2nd ed. The idea that Craftworlds have seperate army lists are relativly new, and I honestly don't think it's needed. If they are a bit clever with how the units are placed in the force chart, you can do all the present craftworlds with just a single list.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 06:48
Not really, no. Deathwing have been a special formation ever since 2nd ed. The idea that Craftworlds have seperate army lists are relativly new, and I honestly don't think it's needed. If they are a bit clever with how the units are placed in the force chart, you can do all the present craftworlds with just a single list.

2nd ed was different for Eldar... but we're not talking about 2nd ed or who's the elder statesman. Voss made a good point earlier about the difference between Craftworlds and Deathwing that made sense to me. Your point about the Craftworld lists not being needed? I can tell you don't play Eldar.

The standard Eldar codex does not offer enough variety, and the Craftworld codex helps with that. You can't create those themed armies by simply moving the Force Org chart around a bit. For instance, whether Guardians are Elites, Troops or HQ, they don't magically become Black Guardians depending on where you put them.

If you're suggesting, however, that the new codex will somehow allow for a very wide range of list options and flexibility (much greater than what's presently available), I agree that does sound like what they're going for. I hope that's how it works out (and, to be honest, it would make more sense to me that it did).

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-05-2006, 07:01
Your point about the Craftworld lists not being needed? I can tell you don't play Eldar.


Only for the past 12 or so years...
But your right, I don't currently play, as I don't really like the rules very much(but the craftworld lists doesn't change any of that).



For instance, whether Guardians are Elites, Troops or HQ, they don't magically become Black Guardians depending on where you put them.

True, they don't. However, Black Guardians are a very recent invention(and doesn't, IMO, makes very much sense), and could easily be left out and still give you a force thats focused on Guardians and Seers. You just wouldn't get your free upgrade. And thats of course assuming there isn't an option to upgrade them to 'Black Guardians'.

With moving a few units at most, you can already make lists that looks very much like the Craftworld list.

Seers and Guardians, painted black, check.
Pure Aspect Warriors, check.
Lots of Scouts, check.
Lots of ghost warriors, check.
Jetbikes and Vypers, okay, minor problem there, but thats about it.

So you can make virtually identical list already with the current codex. However, it would be very nice if there were a bit of flexibility build into the new one. Although the main job would be to just get the units to work.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 07:13
Only for the past 12 or so years...
But your right, I don't currently play, as I don't really like the rules very much(but the craftworld lists doesn't change any of that).

I didn't take you for one of the eldritch with a name like Gorbad Ironclaw. :)


True, they don't. However, Black Guardians are a very recent invention(and doesn't, IMO, makes very much sense)

Makes perfect sense to me. It's a standing army and, game-wise, fills in some holes that are left by the limited number of Aspects you can take. I don't see what the problem is with them.


And thats of course assuming there isn't an option to upgrade them to 'Black Guardians'.

Now that's a good point. We don't know what'll be available in the new codex, so it's too early to whine about it. As it is *now*, however... you cannot just make any old Craftworld from the basic book. But change is coming, so I don't intend to complain.

Now, just academically, I don't agree with what you've got written below. You're making it sound like you can play every variant in the current list, but that's not the case. Let me respond...


Seers and Guardians, painted black, check.

I play my Ulthwe Strike Force Seer Council with four Farseers and four Warlocks, all loaded to the nines. Can't do that currently.

In USF I also depend on the BS4 War Walkers. Can't get that, either.


Pure Aspect Warriors, check.

My good friend likes to play an army comprised of two Striking Scorpion units and one Howling Banshee, accompanied by a Farseer. He can't do that with the current codex.


Lots of Scouts, check.

...but no pathfinders, which is a key element of Alaitoc.


Lots of ghost warriors, check.

My current Ghost Warrior list, which uses two Wraithlords, one squad of War Walkers, and some D Cannons is also not possible in the current codex.


Jetbikes and Vypers, okay, minor problem there, but thats about it.

Yeah. Minor problem. Unless you play Saim Hann... in which case it could be a major one.

My point isn't that you're wrong about the new codex opening up a lot of possibilities for variety (thus making the Craftworld codex obsolete). I'm betting the same horse you are there; I think it's going to be very flexible, though only time will tell.

The idea that you can recreate the richness and diversity of the Craftworld codex with some shuffling around in the current book, and that's really not correct at all. The current vanilla codex can't reproduce what the Craftworld codex can do. That's why the Craftworld codex was published.

Jon_Irenicus
15-05-2006, 08:03
True, they don't. However, Black Guardians are a very recent invention(and doesn't, IMO, makes very much sense)

Actually, I think they´re mentioned in passing in the 2nd ed codex.
Since the craftworld develops a lot more psychics, I can imagine it´s organization and military structure didn´t give much way to the training of Aspect Warriors, but based itself more on supporting units, like Guardians and Reapers.

Real reason now: Super psykers with a better-than-average army composed of the grim militia and dark reapers have made use (x3) of the rule of cool. :p

About Deathwing armies and Craftworld ones, you need an army of termies to make the first (which means you wouldn´t use half as many on a normal Dark Angels army), while the variety on the eldar lists still allow them to be used in a vanilla list.

Though, I wonder what Iyanden players are thinking.

ZAChos
15-05-2006, 08:16
I'm quietly confindent about the new 'dex. The recent codices have been some of the best ever IMHO and looking at the new models (going back to their roots, which is a great thing. 2nd ed aspects are amazing) it looks like the development team have outdone themselves.

As for craftworld lists, while fun and characterful I get the feeling they were rushed out without as much playtesting as they should have had. The extreme rules that are great if used by a thoughtful player are open to much abuse (seer council armies should never of happened).

@Orbital: Have faith. GW are aware that not allowing various combinations will cause rift and so will make sure not too much is changed. GW aren't as evil as everyone thinks: They are gamers that love 40k as much (more?) than we do.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 08:20
@Orbital: Have faith. GW are aware that not allowing various combinations will cause rift and so will make sure not too much is changed. GW aren't as evil as everyone thinks: They are gamers that love 40k as much (more?) than we do.

I think I was very clear in stating (several times): I'm not worried. :)

Thanks, though.

Jon_Irenicus
15-05-2006, 09:04
I think I was very clear in stating (several times): I'm not worried. :)


After reading the Hammer and also after seeing your response to the latest Eldar minis, you certainly don´t seem to have any reason at all to be worried :rolleyes:

I´m waiting for the Reapers. And those gorgeous little Dire Avengers already have a place in my heart, bless ´em.

Yrandrasil
15-05-2006, 11:59
Quote:
For instance, whether Guardians are Elites, Troops or HQ, they don't magically become Black Guardians depending on where you put them.



True, they don't. However, Black Guardians are a very recent invention(and doesn't, IMO, makes very much sense), and could easily be left out and still give you a force thats focused on Guardians and Seers. You just wouldn't get your free upgrade. And thats of course assuming there isn't an option to upgrade them to 'Black Guardians'.

@ Orbital...

Have to agree with Gorbad here... The Black Guardians really never made much sense to me. The whole Ulthwe thing was to have a high number of seers. Perhaps I am not up on the fluff, but if anyone should have had specially trained Guardians it would be Beil-Tan. After all, aren't they the most militant of the Craftworlds? I have less of a problem with the Black Guardians in the USF list, as they were specially trained Strike Forces...

But I digress off topic (alright... way off topic)

As I didn't get a chance to scoot over to Balty... was there any talk of anything Eldar-y from Forgeworld?

The Emperor
15-05-2006, 12:27
The idea that you can recreate the richness and diversity of the Craftworld codex with some shuffling around in the current book, and that's really not correct at all. The current vanilla codex can't reproduce what the Craftworld codex can do. That's why the Craftworld codex was published.

For the most part, one probably could recreate the Craftworld lists if the current list is shuffled a bit in the upcoming Codex. If I had to guess, this is what the FOC will look like in the next Codex.

HQ
- Autarch
- Farseer (Possibly allowing for a Seer Council with more then one Farseer)

HQ OR ELITE
- Wraithlord (Possibly with an upgrade allowing Wraithguard to be taken as Troops, or lifting any 0-1 limits if they're already available as Troops)

ELITE
- Fire Dragons
- Howling Banshees
- Wraithguard*

TROOPS
- Dire Avengers
- Guardian Defenders
- Guardian Jetbike Squadron (There's a rumor around here about these being moved to Troops)
- Guardian Storm Squad
- Rangers
- Striking Scorpions (I can see this happening. After all, Dire Avengers are Troops. When you get down to it, Dire Avengers are souped up Guardian Defenders. Likewise, Striking Scorpions are a souped up Guardian Storm Squad)
- 0-1 Wraithguard*

FAST ATTACK
- Shining Spears
- Swooping Hawks
- Vyper Squadron
- Warp Spiders

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Dark Reapers
- Falcon Grav Tank
- Fire Prism Grav Tank
- Support Weapon Battery
- War Walker Squadron

* My guess is that Wraithguard will either stay as Elites with an HQ option allowing them to be taken as Troops, or will be a 0-1 Troops option, with an HQ option that eliminates the 0-1 Troops limitation.

That's just my personal theory, anyway.

Krootman
15-05-2006, 13:06
I know im responding late to this thred, but I heard it from gav myself yirel or how ever u spell it is in this dex, all the other chars minus the lords and eldrid are gone. But yea i seem to be the only one who thinks its really sweet that the star cannon is now only a 2 shot gun.

Sildani
15-05-2006, 13:08
I hope you're right, Emperor. Iyanden can't really be played with "vanilla" Eldar. If you take 3 squads of Wraithguard, there go all your Elite slots. No CC Aspects for you! If you take Wraithlords, no artillery, War Walkers, Dark Reapers, or tanks save Wave Serpents. Iyanden would become very short-ranged and totally outclassed in CC. No, the Eldar need some variety, set in print.

And, as Orbital said elsewhere, if they've made all the other heavy weapons viable choices, and have dropped the starcannon's price, then I agree, it's a good thing.

Ironhand
15-05-2006, 13:19
I would hope they've made the other heavy weapons viable. That's one of the biggest flwas in the current Codex.

The Emperor
15-05-2006, 14:40
I know im responding late to this thred, but I heard it from gav myself yirel or how ever u spell it is in this dex, all the other chars minus the lords and eldrid are gone. But yea i seem to be the only one who thinks its really sweet that the star cannon is now only a 2 shot gun.

Oh, sweet! So it's just the 10 cent hoes in the back of the 3rd edition Codex that're gonna be vanishing, and not the Phoenix Lords? Fantastic. I love those Phoenix Lords, even if I do end up on the receiving end of whatever pain they're dishing out more often than not. Those models are just to gorgeous. They demand to be used.

Keravin
15-05-2006, 14:55
AS a Ulthwe player I'm not wildly impressed by what is coming out as I've tried to avoid the mass aspect army.

The new figures are nice and I'm hopeful that the suggested replace Black Guardians with Reapers option might work. Otherwise I've got a stack of Guardians that I can do not a lot with.

Venkh
15-05-2006, 15:09
I know im responding late to this thred, but I heard it from gav myself yirel or how ever u spell it is in this dex, all the other chars minus the lords and eldrid are gone. But yea i seem to be the only one who thinks its really sweet that the star cannon is now only a 2 shot gun.

The more i hear this starcannon "factiod" the less i believe it. Ill reserve judgement until some stronger corroboration comes out.

On the subject of the force org chart, all i need is for the scorps to move to core, or the spiders to move to fast attack for my 2k Swordwind army to become legal again. Oh - and dont forget to put harlequins in with the elites.

Farseerixirvost
15-05-2006, 15:15
Way back from Post #58...


Models never become obsolete.

Kindly agree and disagree. Take, for example, the old/(current) Eldar Rangers. The ones equiped/modeled with Ranger Long Rifle, Shuriken Pistol, AND Power Sword. Its obsolete. Its not WYSIWYG. BUT, you are right in the sense that nobody is going to confuse what that mini represents and what it can/cannot do. So is still a viable miniature, just not 100% WYSIWYG for the uber-wysiwyg players out there.

Just my $0.02. Kinda hard to reply to stuff stated 2 zillion posts ago, so sorry for the delay...

The Emperor
15-05-2006, 15:23
The more i hear this starcannon "factiod" the less i believe it. Ill reserve judgement until some stronger corroboration comes out.

On the subject of the force org chart, all i need is for the scorps to move to core, or the spiders to move to fast attack for my 2k Swordwind army to become legal again. Oh - and dont forget to put harlequins in with the elites.

Yeah, I forgot about them. If they're moving (just my theory, once again) some of the Elites units into other parts of the list, then GW needs to bring in another unit to bulk up the Elites section of the list, and what better unit for that then Harlequins? Another part of the upcoming Eldar Codex that I'm also really looking forward to, by the way. It's been ages since I've seen Harlequins on the battlefield, and I want to see them, again.

x-esiv-4c
15-05-2006, 15:36
siege titan? Show me a titan that isn't capable of siege warfare!

popisdead
15-05-2006, 15:52
Considering how people complain about the Wave Serpent, I'm surprised that's not getting redone.?


I've never heard a complaint about it.

ionfish
15-05-2006, 15:58
Take, for example, the old/(current) Eldar Rangers. The ones equiped/modeled with Ranger Long Rifle, Shuriken Pistol, AND Power Sword.
You mean the Eldar Scout with Needle Sniper Rifle, Shuriken Pistol and Power Sword? :)

pop: I take it you've not been hanging around the Eldar players here (and previously on Portent) for long, then.

self biased
15-05-2006, 16:03
I've never heard a complaint about it.

it was mostly a let-down because it was so overhyped, and took so long to get here, that many people were left disappointed with the end product. to be honest, it's not a bad model, just not what anyone was expecting. i prefer the look of the newer epic style wave serpents myself, so it will be some heavy conversion for me.

Farseerixirvost
15-05-2006, 16:50
Not looking for that. I just don't want to see another codex with them as cheap meatshield style troops. Thats all. I don't really care how 'good' they are, the current ones just feels all wrong, and really drags the codex down.

Maybe my knowledge of eldar fluff is light, but... Aren't guardians supposed to be auxilliary troops that support the main army? To make a modern-day analogy, they are the National Guard that supports the Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines?

So don't look at them like meatshields, and don't think of them as the "main" part of the force, they are the auxilliaries that support other units. Eldar are, and always have been, an amy type that only works if you use certain units to compliment other certain units. Guardians should do just that, compliment the other units, not be 99.678% of the army.


Just MHO and $0.01 (you know, inflation, gas prices, just can't spare two-cents anymore).

charlie_c67
15-05-2006, 17:04
Agree with the analogy. If people use them as a meatshield then that's what they become. Instead they should be used as an auxiliary force to back up the aspect warriors.

ThirdUltra
15-05-2006, 17:14
Actually quite happy about there not being Craftworld lists. I was always a Vanilla player, and that list let you play most craftworlds anyway... balancing one army list is also far more likely to produce desirable results (even if that one list is more work).

Well, I'm not; I've played Eldar Vanilla lists for years prior to the Craftworld Codex list release and personally wanted to play something more challenging like my Saim-Hann list.

Vanilla list is great, don't get me wrong, but I prefer that they did something with the bikes or cost their-of to make the Saim-Hann list a bit more competitive. Don't know where you're getting the Vanilla list lets you play most Craftworlds thing from; as the Craftworld list was pretty unique in Force-Orgs and two craftworlds had special units that are not in the Vanilla list.

Anyway, here's hoping they at least follow-up with a Craftworld list soon then....

Guess I hope

rcm2216
15-05-2006, 17:33
Please help, SOS

I use a three squads of warp spyders and two squads of vypers in my army list, that is five fast attacks according to the new rumors. I will not allow it.

On a serious note, does anyone have any rumored info on where warp spiders will be located on the force organization chart. Otherwise, I like the new rumors so far, I can work with them.

Nexto
15-05-2006, 17:46
I'm not sure if the eldar concept is or should be about "certain units to compliment other certain units".

It's rather about having a specific unit for a specific task which it forfills perfectly but sucks in all the others (but for that reason, you got other specialists). So the concept is more about using the right unit for the right task, so that the army as a whole works perfectly. The combined arms-thingie is more the way the T'au fight, not the eldar.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 18:34
Have to agree with Gorbad here... The Black Guardians really never made much sense to me. The whole Ulthwe thing was to have a high number of seers. Perhaps I am not up on the fluff, but if anyone should have had specially trained Guardians it would be Beil-Tan. After all, aren't they the most militant of the Craftworlds?

Actually, you sort of answered your own question!

The Black Guardians are not different from regular Guardians except that they aren't a militia; they're a standing army. Because they are from Ulthwe, which is right on the edge of the Eye of Terror, they have to fight a lot more than regular old Guardians do, so they're more experienced. They aren't normally gardeners, poets, musicians, Amway Salespeople, etc. They're full-time soldiers, but they do not receive the benefit of studying on the Path of the Warrior, which is why they're not Aspects.


AS a Ulthwe player I'm not wildly impressed by what is coming out as I've tried to avoid the mass aspect army.

The new figures are nice and I'm hopeful that the suggested replace Black Guardians with Reapers option might work. Otherwise I've got a stack of Guardians that I can do not a lot with.

Don't be too worried yet. Like I keep saying about Guardians in the new codex: Wait and see!

EldarRaven
15-05-2006, 18:53
Maybe they may increase the stats of the guardians in the same manner you would if they are black guardians? Could that maybe happen?

Orbital
15-05-2006, 18:59
Maybe they may increase the stats of the guardians in the same manner you would if they are black guardians? Could that maybe happen?

Well, yeah... they can do anything, but the fluff is that Black Guardians are what you get on Ulthwe, and Black Guardians are just a little bit better than regular Guardians. This suggests that if all the regular Guardians get a boost then the Black Guardians get a boost over that boost.

Anyhow, there's no reason we can't see some cool upgrades and buffs in the new codex, so what Black Guardians will be in that iteration of the rules remains to be seen.

taz
15-05-2006, 19:09
just wondering...does ANYBODY have any pics from Baltimore GD?? fair enough that GW might only show CoD models and the new ELdar, but what about golden demon or at least AnythiN that is new?!!

Orbital
15-05-2006, 19:11
just wondering...does ANYBODY have any pics from Baltimore GD?? fair enough that GW might only show CoD models and the new ELdar, but what about golden demon or at least AnythiN that is new?!!

Yeah, there are pics on Warseer from the Baltimore GT but, you know what? I'm getting tired of linking to it for people who just can't be bothered to look through the threads and want someone else to do it for them.

ionfish
15-05-2006, 19:13
This is the news and rumours forum. Brimstone kindly collects all actual new stuff in the wonderful rumour roundup (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37). For Golden Demon photos you'll have to do some searching, but they are around.

Underway
15-05-2006, 19:24
The fluff and rules for the Craftworld Eldar Codex/ EoT was a little over the top in relations to the original craftworld rules.

The original stuff about the differences between the craftworlds came from Epic Space Marine. In that game the differing Eldar Craftworlds got a free troops choice that coresponded to their craftworlds nature.

Biel-Tan got a free unit of Dire Avengers to represent that they had more followers of the Warrior Path.
Saim-Hain got a free unit of jetbikes for obvious reasons.
Ilyanden free Wraithguard.
Aliatoc free rangers.
Ulthewe free guardians.

Essentially the rules for Ulthewe represented the black Guardians as just normal guardians as part of the standing army. They were not overly amazing or better. They were poets and salesmen but they had to do a 6 month tour as a standing fighting force because there may not have been time to mobilize the rest of the craftworld due to a chaos attack at any time. The duties rotated between different poets over the years. This was completley different than the new fluff which makes them into a standing army of experts (complete crap if you ask me) and as good shooters as Aspect warriors.

Aspect warriors are focused and narrow and work for years. You're telling me a guardian who does a 6 month tour is as good as them? Not a chance.

Similar stories with the rest of the craftworlds.

Essentially if the flexability is there to take guardians (painted black or otherwise), dire avengers, jetbikes, wraithguard and rangers as troops choices like was stated earlier then GW has gone back to the true roots of the eldar and what the differing craftworlds represented.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 19:26
The fluff and rules for the Craftworld Eldar Codex/ EoT was a little over the top in relations to the original craftworld rules.

The original stuff about the differences between the craftworlds came from Epic Space Marine. In that game the differing Eldar Craftworlds got a free troops choice that coresponded to their craftworlds nature.

Keep in mind, however, that things have changed enormously for every 40k army since the "old days"... and mostly for the better. The game - fluff, rules and all - evolves, and so we deal with what's in the books now.

Underway
15-05-2006, 19:38
Keep in mind, however, that things have changed enormously for every 40k army since the "old days"... and mostly for the better. The game - fluff, rules and all - evolves, and so we deal with what's in the books now.

True however if as I stated the troops choices of the list cover Dire Avengers, Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Guardians, and Rangers with the rest of the list being formed around them then GW can easily claim that the basics for any type of craftworld army can be formed from the core list.

HQ: Avatar, Autarch, Farseer/ Seer Council/Warlocks (sent to Guardian and jetbike units)

Elites: Harlies, Fire Dragons, Banshees, Scorps, Warpspiders??, Pathfinders (upgraded rangers)

Troops: Jetbikes, Guardians, Dire Avenger, Wraithguard, Rangers

Fast Attack: Vipers, Swooping H, Shining spears, Warpspiders??, War Walkers

Heavy Support: Falcon, Fire Prism, Dark Reapers, Support Platforms, Wraithlord.

Now tell me with a force org chart like that what craftworld can you not represent if you wished too, special rules aside??

Orbital
15-05-2006, 19:47
True however if as I stated the troops choices of the list cover Dire Avengers, Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Guardians, and Rangers with the rest of the list being formed around them then GW can easily claim that the basics for any type of craftworld army can be formed from the core list.

HQ: Avatar, Autarch, Farseer/ Seer Council/Warlocks (sent to Guardian and jetbike units)

Elites: Harlies, Fire Dragons, Banshees, Scorps, Warpspiders??, Pathfinders (upgraded rangers)

Troops: Jetbikes, Guardians, Dire Avenger, Wraithguard, Rangers

Fast Attack: Vipers, Swooping H, Shining spears, Warpspiders??, War Walkers

Heavy Support: Falcon, Fire Prism, Dark Reapers, Support Platforms, Wraithlord.

Now tell me with a force org chart like that what craftworld can you not represent if you wished too, special rules aside??

I'm not totally sure where we're going with this, because I believe I mostly see it the way you do; I personally think the new codex will provide flexibility and customization not just with the force org chart, but with some special rules and upgrades that might be specific to certain combinations. I'm really not worried. The above-drawn Force Org Chart proposal that you've written allows for some of the Craftworlds to be mimicked, yes. I personally play an Ulthwe Strike Force which can't be reproduced using your chart because I have four Farseers and three BS4 War Walkers. Neither is there a Wraithgate or any provision for reserves or Tactical Withdrawl. Basically, I'm not about to subscribe to the notion that all you have to do is shuffle the Force Org Chart and you can get all the Craftworlds you want.

Speaking of Tactical Withdrawl, I think it's important to note that everyone talks about reconstructing the Craftworlds by taking all the benefits and bonuses and building them out of a new Force Org Chart and several special rules. I think this is only part of the picture, however, as a Craftworld ruleset is not just bonuses, but penalties and nerfs as well. To properly balance the reproducing of Craftworld lists in the new codex, GW will also have to somehow create contextual limits (like the Aspect:Guardian ratio of Ulthwe, the Wraithlord:Wraithguard ratio of Iyanden, the reduced Heavy Support of Saim Hann, etc.). To me, the only thing worse than losing the ability to recreate Craftworlds using the new codex would be to only lose the drawbacks.

gitburna
15-05-2006, 19:56
If, in the new upcoming Codex, there is a way to deliver Guardians and their supporting units into position better .... then I'm okay with the 12" range. But if there isn't ....then I'll be mighty mad at waiting 8 or so years for a broken codex to replace my current broken codex.

My god, someone who gets it! Mr Zero-Warp-san, i salute you. Incidentally, i still see lists set up this way even now in the post assault-rush days, and they work pretty damn well. Im actually v happy GW seem to be going down this route, i argued blacks white for this a while back for many a while on the GW boards until i got sick of the same old arguments coming round every 3 weeks. My pet hope/theory is that warlocks will be the things that make guardians truly worth taking.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 19:59
My god, someone who gets it! Mr Zero-Warp-san, i salute you. Incidentally, i still see lists set up this way even now in the post assault-rush days, and they work pretty damn well. Im actually v happy GW seem to be going down this route, i argued blacks white for this a while back for many a while on the GW boards until i got sick of the same old arguments coming round every 3 weeks. My pet hope/theory is that warlocks will be the things that make guardians truly worth taking.

Count me in on that, guys. I'm with you.

Voss
15-05-2006, 20:21
Hmm. You've jumped from the Craftworld lists to the Eye of Terror Strike Force. To me thats a very different animal.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 20:27
Hmm. You've jumped from the Craftworld lists to the Eye of Terror Strike Force. To me thats a very different animal.

I was only trying to speak from a personal perspective. If I was to generalize, I'd ask: Where's the Wild Rider chief of Saim Hann and his kinsmen? Where's the Iyanden Spiritseer? What about the disruption rolls of Alaitoc or the Court of the Young King? Black Guardians have already been covered, but what about Augment for Warlocks (a key element for a successful Seer Council)?

I'm not discussing the value of the above-mentioned units or rules. I'm not saying whether I'd take them personally or not. All I'm doing is challenging the theory that you can reproduce Craftworlds well enough if you shuffle the Force Org Chart. Whether it's for the better or worse, I believe it's abundantly clear that no, you can't.

lord_blackfang
15-05-2006, 20:37
I personally play an Ulthwe Strike Force which can't be reproduced using your chart because I have four Farseers and three BS4 War Walkers. Neither is there a Wraithgate or any provision for reserves or Tactical Withdrawl. Basically, I'm not about to subscribe to the notion that all you have to do is shuffle the Force Org Chart and you can get all the Craftworlds you want.

I think it's fair to warn you that while I expect a lot of flexibility in the Eldar codex, it's unrealistic to think that you'll get to keep ALL your craftworld toys.

GW is moving away from wildly deviant lists with loads of unique special rules, units and wargear. Look at the SM Trait system and compare that to the Index Astartes series. Your average named Chapter has been reduced from 1-3 pages of unique rules, wargear and Force Chart alterations into 1-3 very very short special rules. If that can happen to the GW posterboys, it can certainly happen to Eldar.

The new Codex will be brilliant. But it will be a new army. Built from the ground up. The way it plays might change. The fluff might change. After all, GW needs to sell models. Don't expect to be able to field the exact same army list as you are now.

Orbital
15-05-2006, 20:41
I think it's fair to warn you that while I expect a lot of flexibility in the Eldar codex, it's unrealistic to think that you'll get to keep ALL your craftworld toys...

I keep repeating this as clearly as I can, but it doesn't seem to be getting across: People are saying that you could reproduce the Craftworlds right now by shuffling the Force Org chart, and I'm saying that's not possible. I didn't say that it should be done or that it will be done... simply that you don't get Iyanden just by having 3 Wraithlords, you don't get Biel Tan just by having lots of Aspects and you don't get Ulthwe by having lots of Guardians.

Personally, I hope that many things about the current Craftworld configurations disappear forever... but that wasn't the topic at hand.

Corlock Striker
15-05-2006, 20:46
To be perfectly honest, I can't imagine the Seer Council will be dissappearing any time soon. After all, that $45.00 (US) Seer Council box set is still up for sale in the Online Store, in addition, it's still a relatively new item, with relatively new sculpts in it. I don't think they'd dream of scraping said molds so soon after creating them. But then what do I know. Still, I think the status of the Seer Council box set bodes well for the continued existence of Seer Councils, and therefore the continued existence of other specialty units. Whether or not those units will have anything approaching the rules they currently have is another matter entirely of course.

EldarRaven
15-05-2006, 21:19
Speaking of the wraithgate. I wonder if they will allow this option for the eldar? I think it would make then really good as we could do the whole guardian support 12" thing for aspects with out having one of the units guned down or waiting a turn for a transport.

althathir
15-05-2006, 21:29
It could be possible that instead of taking a farseer now we take a seer council with modified rules (i.e. limits) for everyone. This is just speculation but it is a possibilitly.

As far as the shurcat not changing for guardians this doesn't really bother me as much, I really think that warlocks will probably have a way to boost the range and effectiveness of guardian shooting like enhance. As far as black guardians it was suggested earlier to just use counts as rules with dire avengers.

I think people may be reading to much into the craftworld book not being compatible with the new book. It is possible that later on down the road we will see another version of it, if the demand is there GW will find a way to make it happen (even if they are trying to get away from it), but if they are changing where units fit in the force org. chart then it might cause some of those armies to be broken, and The new book shouldn't cause a big mess because of an old supplement codex that was considered when they were designing the new one.

also IMHO the wraithlord will never become a HQ/elite choice, even if it's a 0-1 though a HQ/ Heavy support choice is a possibility. I just don't see it happening while other armies do have dreads/walkers in different areas in the force chart none of them are considered their armies toughest selection or one of thier most accurate with heavy weapons.

The bottom line is we don't know everything about the book so we should probably wait at least for another few months before we try to make comparsions, or decide that our lists are illegal.

Bregalad
15-05-2006, 21:43
There will be new farseers, there will be a Seer Council no doubt. You should not count on the fact, that the odd unbalanced unlimited number of council members will stay. According to rumours the psi forces will be no longer aggressive but supportive, changing the stats and qualities of Guardians and other squads. This will change many Ulthwé army strategies a lot, perhaps more than any other craftworld. But it will give new armies a chance to be competitive on Grand Tournaments. Just see it as a new challenge, as everyone else has to do at least once every 7-8 years.

Krootman
15-05-2006, 23:04
Guys the starcannon thing...was said by gav himself, and said by everyone who has read the codex so far....i dont think gav is making this up...

Orbital
15-05-2006, 23:07
Guys the starcannon thing...was said by gav himself, and said by everyone who has read the codex so far....i dont think gav is making this up...

What Starcannon thing?

rcm2216
15-05-2006, 23:14
True however if as I stated the troops choices of the list cover Dire Avengers, Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Guardians, and Rangers with the rest of the list being formed around them then GW can easily claim that the basics for any type of craftworld army can be formed from the core list.

HQ: Avatar, Autarch, Farseer/ Seer Council/Warlocks (sent to Guardian and jetbike units)

Elites: Harlies, Fire Dragons, Banshees, Scorps, Warpspiders??, Pathfinders (upgraded rangers)

Troops: Jetbikes, Guardians, Dire Avenger, Wraithguard, Rangers

Fast Attack: Vipers, Swooping H, Shining spears, Warpspiders??, War Walkers

Heavy Support: Falcon, Fire Prism, Dark Reapers, Support Platforms, Wraithlord.

Now tell me with a force org chart like that what craftworld can you not represent if you wished too, special rules aside??


can you confirm chart

ionfish
15-05-2006, 23:17
No, he can't, because at the moment a lot of it is speculative. Please stop asking the same question ("Will my current army be valid?") in every rumour thread mentioning Eldar, it's getting a little tired and just like you, we don't know. Keep an eye on this forum and when we know, you will know too. Until then... just calm down a little, mmm?

Underway
15-05-2006, 23:47
Umm no I cannot as I made that chart up as an example to support my argument...if you read the posts you might have gotten that...

@Orbital.... I wasn't trying to suggest that special rules etc... as they stand with the Craftworld Eldar Codex would be in the org chart. What I was trying to point out that based upon a slight org chart modification one could make a reasonable facimille of the old school concepts for the Craftworlds. Of course Ulthewe Strike Force cannot be represented by an org chart, there are too many special rules.

However Ulthewe itself could be represented by getting a wack of Guardians (painted black of course) and a Seer Council to back them up. Ilyanden could be all Troop Wraithguard with all Wraithlords as heavy support etc...

Of course special rules would not be there. My mistake for not making myself clear enough. I agree with you on your point regarding that.

asyzpkj
15-05-2006, 23:58
It's fair to say that the sort of force oc shuffle being speculated could represent the bare bones of the various craftworlds. But most Eldar players will no doubt want more than that to make each of the craftworlds unique. I don't see how they can do it without including some special rules, or options/restrictions for the army that become available by making a relevant selection from the list.

Orbital
16-05-2006, 00:01
However Ulthewe itself could be represented by getting a wack of Guardians (painted black of course) and a Seer Council to back them up. Ilyanden could be all Troop Wraithguard with all Wraithlords as heavy support etc...

I completely disagree. No disrespect intended, mind you, as I can clearly see you're a thoughtful and intelligent person and I mean no offense. I just think you're over-simplifying a lot and I pray that GW doesn't consider what you're proposing to be "just as good" as the real thing as they bring out the new codex.

Cornelius
16-05-2006, 00:10
Of course special rules would not be there. My mistake for not making myself clear enough. I agree with you on your point regarding that.

But come on, Orbital's not such a bully now, is he?:rolleyes:

Anyway, I really hope they ditch the broken Craftworld lists, as they were characterful, yes, but not one of them was in any way balanced, although only Saim-Hann sucked due to the current Jet-bikes.

Orbital
16-05-2006, 00:12
But come on, Orbital's not such a bully now, is he?:rolleyes:

Sure I am. :)


Anyway, I really hope they ditch the broken Craftworld lists, as they were characterful, yes, but not one of them was in any way balanced, although only Saim-Hann sucked due to the current Jet-bikes.

I hope they do as well. For the most part they're under-powered or over-powered.

Cornelius
16-05-2006, 00:24
I hope they do as well. For the most part they're under-powered or over-powered.

They were a pretty bad idea from the start - that everyone should play an Eldar stereotype of sorts - and their implementation lacked in imagination. I particularly disliked everything about Ulthwé, Iyanden and Biel-Tan, as they reeked of Brie and Cambozola, with a distinct tinge of chčvre.

Orbital
16-05-2006, 00:27
They were a pretty bad idea from the start - that everyone should play an Eldar stereotype of sorts - and their implementation lacked in imagination. I particularly disliked everything about Ulthwé, Iyanden and Biel-Tan, as they reeked of Brie and Cambozola, with a distinct tinge of chčvre.

I like the *concepts* of those Craftworld and, let me tell you, I've sure been glad to do something which goes beyond the very constrictive confines of the standard codex (where several units are just simply not worth taking at all). I've said it before, however, and I'll say it again: I'd like to knock people who have utterly abused those lists right in the head. They could have worked fine, but every little worm had to push his way through the loopholes, and now GW has to bring the hammer down because they're too open to abuse.

Those are lovely cheese you mentioned, though. Sort of makes me want to get myself some crackers and fruit to go with it...

Elanthanis
16-05-2006, 02:15
To the people commenting on the wave serpent:

I'm not surprised its not getting a redo. The angle the image on the box is shot from is horrific, but when I've seen it on the table it's actually a very nice looking, elegant model. Only one of the angles stood out as something that I might wanna change, but otherwise, the turret looked fine, as did the force field vanes.

As far as Craftworlds go, I wouldn't be too surprised to see some sort of traits which enable certain things about a craftworld to happen, much like the doctrines of the Imperial Guard or the Advantages/Disadvantages of the Space marines, with some set examples of Ulthwe, Biel Tann, etc.

For instance:

Ulthwe might get:

Seer Council
Standing Army
Lack of Aspect temples

as opposed to

Biel Tann

Court of the Young King
Lots of temples
No seer councils


That sort of thing, using a similar system to the advantage/disadvantage thing.

silashand
16-05-2006, 03:07
So instead of variant lists, everyone plays the same list once they work out the nasty combos. Great. I liked the idea of variant lists and as long as the traits/doctrines idea could make it work then I'd be happy. If I get stuck with the same list as everyone else and only the color scheme is different, then GW can shove the new codex where the sun doesn't shine. After all, the Marines will eventually have *FIVE* separate codexes. I fail to see why the Eldar shouldn't be treated in a similar manner, though since everyone plays Marines I guess the rest don't matter.

As to the actual rumours, a source of mine said the Seer Council would indeed be available to all armies, just limited in number by which craftworld you chose (Ulthwe getting the most obviously). I have no idea how reliable this guy is, but you never know. It sounds plausible, but we'll have to wait and see I guess.

Cheers, Gary

Orbital
16-05-2006, 04:00
I'm not surprised its not getting a redo. The angle the image on the box is shot from is horrific, but when I've seen it on the table it's actually a very nice looking, elegant model. Only one of the angles stood out as something that I might wanna change, but otherwise, the turret looked fine, as did the force field vanes.

I have to agree here. When I first saw the Wave Serpent in photos I thought "Oh, no. That's the best they can do?" Since then I've owned several GW Wave Serpents, and I like them very much. Incidentally; if you don't like the turret you can *still* get just the turret from the Forgeworld kit if you want. Just check out the site.

The real measure of whether or not the Wave Serpent will stick around, however, is whether or not it sells. Looks influence the purchasing, of course, but all the complaining in the world won't get a new Wave Serpent model until the profits start to drop. And, seriously... why should GW redo it before then? I'm pretty sure at this point the GW Wave Serpent is selling just fine and I don't see a change any time soon (and just imagine the Eldar player who will screech if the Wave Serpent is redone before the Jetbikes are... or the Warp Spiders... or the Shining Spears... etc. etc.).


As far as Craftworlds go, I wouldn't be too surprised to see some sort of traits which enable certain things about a craftworld to happen, much like the doctrines of the Imperial Guard or the Advantages/Disadvantages of the Space marines, with some set examples of Ulthwe, Biel Tann, etc.

I agree that this is likely to happen and hesitantly feel it's a good idea. It brings the Eldar army dangerously close to the realm of Space Marine rules... but GW actually does work pretty hard at trying to make sure the various armies stay somewhat distinct. You have to give them credit for that, if nothing else.

The Dude
16-05-2006, 04:41
So instead of variant lists, everyone plays the same list once they work out the nasty combos.
[snip]
If I get stuck with the same list as everyone else and only the color scheme is different, then GW can shove the new codex where the sun doesn't shine.

This is a disgustingly pessimistic view to have. I'm hoping the list is versatile enough to make a huge number of different lists viable, not just the 1 uber-list-of-doom(tm). I'm relying on the gaming community to be a little more creative than that.

Although this is probably foolish ;).

My point is, you will NEVER be "stuck" with the same list as everyone else, because, guess what, you have a CHOICE of what to take.

Hellebore
16-05-2006, 04:44
I completely disagree. No disrespect intended, mind you, as I can clearly see you're a thoughtful and intelligent person and I mean no offense. I just think you're over-simplifying a lot and I pray that GW doesn't consider what you're proposing to be "just as good" as the real thing as they bring out the new codex.


Well, if they manage to shuffle new units into/out of different slots, it could porbably be possible.

If for instance, scorpions and banshees are Troops, but you may only have as many as you have guardian units (so 3 guardian units allows 3 scorpion/banshee units) then it limits the number in a vanilla army.

If you wanted to play a Biel Tann army, then this is swapped the other way around- ie you may only take as many guardian units as you have of avengers,scorpions,banshees (to reflect the even higher militarisation).
Or maybe, guardians just become 0-1 choices?

The only really big change would be to black guardians, as they would have to have a seperate rule allowing them their stat increase.

May be when they mention the ulthwe army, they will just say "for 1pt per model, you may upgrade all your guardians to blackguardians, with BS/Ws4."

Iyanden, could be simply: Wraithguard are Troops, every other unit is 0-1, and wraithlords are elites and heavy (ala carnifex).

Hellebore

This is if they are just going to have a single line telling you the changes to the list for playing each of these craftworlds.

Orbital
16-05-2006, 04:50
Well, if they manage to shuffle new units into/out of different slots, it could porbably be possible....

Well, though I don't agree with every word you've said, you're clearly thinking in a logical direction and you seem to have your head screwed on right... so I won't do one of those obsessive-compulsive, line-by-line responses and, instead, I just demand you be on Warseer for Eldar Codex Zero Day so we can talk about it! :)

Hellebore
16-05-2006, 05:15
Most of that comes from my own home made codex.

I rewrote the whole lot, and then wrote a page for each craftworld to describe how the list interacted to create them.

I still think each craftworld deserves its own codex. If an army of 1000 marines is unique enough to get a codex, I don't see why a craftworld of hundreds of millions of eldar can't.

Hellebore

Orbital
16-05-2006, 05:18
I still think each craftworld deserves its own codex. If an army of 1000 marines is unique enough to get a codex, I don't see why a craftworld of hundreds of millions of eldar can't.

I think you're not necessarily seeing it from GW's perspective. Hundreds of millions of Eldar won't be the ones paying for the books on the shelves. :)

If there were as many people played Ulthwe as there were playing Blood Angels, you'd better believe there'd be a codex all to themselves.

Hellebore
16-05-2006, 05:41
Sigh... yes, of course, you are right.

Oh how I wish the things we love in this world were not ruled by money, but rather the passion of those truly in tune with such grandeur.

Hellebore

Orbital
16-05-2006, 05:45
Don't be too discouraged. Those Space Marines codices are making a lot of people really happy. It may not be your thing, but GW is giving a lot of its customers just what they're looking for.

silashand
16-05-2006, 05:52
So why can't they do the same for the rest of their customers? I guess some people are "more equal than others" and in this case it's based on who generates the most money for them. Ah well...

Cheers, Gary

Orbital
16-05-2006, 06:52
So why can't they do the same for the rest of their customers? I guess some people are "more equal than others" and in this case it's based on who generates the most money for them. Ah well...

Well, I have to say that it's not great business strategy to take care of the demographic that spends less before you take care of the one that spends more. Still, they seem like they might be taking care of Eldar and Orks in the near future, there's whisperings of Dark Eldar and they've already given Tau some nice stuff. Don't be too discouraged just yet.

Warp Zero
16-05-2006, 07:19
I still firmly believe that each army is like a plant. The one that yields you the best sales is the one that you water the most.

On another line of thought: I wonder, who are going to be the ones to buy the new Eldar products when they come out? Then, some time afterward, how will the new line and codex effect the number of Eldar players being seen?

Pretty much goes without saying that Eldar fans will buy the new Eldar stuff. People who were on the fence will probably make the final transition over now that there's new stuff. But what about the rest? There's always a set of players that are looking to start a new army, but lots of times what army they pick is sometimes influenced by what army they "like". Feeling fairly neutral on an army a player may decide to collect it when the new codex and models come out. But what about players who hate Eldar? New Codex or not, they'll pass. Taking a general temperature from message boards (which I know is by no means accurate), it seems there are more players that hate Eldar than players that hate any other single army. We can talk about how this happen, but basically we all know .... cheezey lists that have to played against.....loss of patience listening to us cry about waiting so long to get an update.....verbal back and forth.

You think the amount of Eldar players will effect sales any? Me, I'm thinking probably not .... but its an interesting thing to knock around the discussion table.

Think about it, how many Tyranid haters to you see crying and moaning about Tyranids on boards? When it comes to prejudices, I usually just see two camps, Marines and Eldar. All other armies are just kinda in the middle. A few haters, but overall not generating no where near the amount of ire as Marines and Eldar seem to generate against each other.

Hellebore
16-05-2006, 08:55
Think about it, how many Tyranid haters to you see crying and moaning about Tyranids on boards? When it comes to prejudices, I usually just see two camps, Marines and Eldar. All other armies are just kinda in the middle. A few haters, but overall not generating no where near the amount of ire as Marines and Eldar seem to generate against each other.

I think it comes down to fluff actually. Nid players (of which I am) see their army in the fluff context- ie it doesn't MATTER that most of your army has been killed because that is their job.

Marine players (of which I am) see marines as specialists (quite rightly) and so are expected to win in situations most others would not- but tend to die with alarming regularity in the game.

Eldar players (of which I am) see the supposed advanced technology of the eldar fluff, and the fact that the eldar are a dying race and don't like throwing away the lives of their kinsmen and then wonder why the eldar play using a meat shield and weapons that are subpar compared to other 'less advanced' races.

People become attached to armies through their fluff and don't like it when games mechanics make a mockery of it.

Thus marine players don't like the ease with which marines are killed, and eldar players don't like the inferior weapons or meatshield tactics typified by the rules.

Hellebore

Venkh
16-05-2006, 08:56
Necrons seem to generate some ire but not with a single group of players.

I remember when RT came out. My mate bagged marines and i immediately went for Eldar.

2 Elite armies vying for the top spot of the galaxies finest. Intialy he won most games but then WD127 came out and the real rivalry was born.

The beef comes from the fact that the Eldar players contest the notion that the Marines are the galaxies finest.

lord_blackfang
16-05-2006, 09:16
But what about players who hate Eldar? New Codex or not, they'll pass. Taking a general temperature from message boards (which I know is by no means accurate), it seems there are more players that hate Eldar than players that hate any other single army. We can talk about how this happen, but basically we all know .... cheezey lists that have to played against.....loss of patience listening to us cry about waiting so long to get an update.....verbal back and forth.


Nobody hates Eldar, we just hate Eldar players :angel:

Yeah, it pretty much comes down to the endless whining. The one Eldar player I actually know in real life is a great guy, but on the forums they're almost unbearable. And don't nobody tell me it's because the army hasn't been updated in 6? years, because I joined Portent in '00 and they were whining then.

I expect the percentage of whining Eldar will drop considerably when the new Codex is released and many new players pick up the army. But I know in my heart that the old guard will never ever be happy.

Warp Zero
16-05-2006, 10:05
Nobody hates Eldar, we just hate Eldar players :angel:

Yeah, it pretty much comes down to the endless whining. The one Eldar player I actually know in real life is a great guy, but on the forums they're almost unbearable. And don't nobody tell me it's because the army hasn't been updated in 6? years, because I joined Portent in '00 and they were whining then.


Actually, I'm sure the whining started even before 2000. :D Well, I'll give you the Eldar player's point of view. The reason why we whine so much is because we got saddled with a shoddy Codex from the beginning. If the Codex was more balanced and also kept within the spirit of Eldar fluff at the same time, then you wouldn't been subject to so much whining over the years. That, and if GW would've actually had the Wave Serpent out a lot earlier too.

You don't see too much whining from Tau or Necron players. Two new race armies. Its because their Codex (which I admit can be argued that aren't perfect) are more balanced than the Eldar Codex.

So, its not the type of player that you should be directing your distaste towards. If the Eldar Codex was better written you would've seen a whole lot less whining. The whining compounds and grows bigger because of GW's odd prioritizing of new Codexes.

You would've whined too if you were an Eldar player from the beginning of the hobby.

But I do agree there are Eldar whiners that take it too far. Just try not to paint us all together with a broad stroke. ;)




I expect the percentage of whining Eldar will drop considerably when the new Codex is released and many new players pick up the army. But I know in my heart that the old guard will never ever be happy.

Yeah, I'm sure they'll be nick-pickers who feel the new upcoming codex is still not to their vision of how the Eldar should be. But I think , if the codex is fair and fun to play, we'll see a dramatic drop in Eldar whining. As an Eldar player I'm rather excited that we're finally getting some attention.

Then after that, we will only have to hear from Orks and Dark Eldar. ;)



2 Elite armies vying for the top spot of the galaxies finest. Intialy he won most games but then WD127 came out and the real rivalry was born.

I'm a bit hazy on my 40k history. What was the significance of WD127?


People become attached to armies through their fluff and don't like it when games mechanics make a mockery of it.

You raise a very good point. I totally agree with you. But although the fluff does play a part in it, its just one part of many. For me, its more to do with game mechanics and overall neglect in the model line for so long.

Sarigar
16-05-2006, 10:13
WD 127 was when the Aspect Warriors, Farseers, Warlocks and Avatar was introduced for 1st edition. These were all Jes Goodwin designed models as well.

Yrandrasil
16-05-2006, 11:04
As far as the specific Craftworlds are concerned, I am silently hoping that the options were omitted from the Codex because Games Dev wants to put more time and thought into each Craftworld. I am probably mis-guided, but I am still hopeful. A variant Force Org, or silly (and somewhat pointless) specialist units tacked onto a standardized list is not my idea of fleshing out an idea.

Hopefully we will see a "Craftworld" specific codex with new, more characterful units. But, as I have said before... I can wait. Orks and DE really need a redux before my Iyanden list!

Later

silverstu
16-05-2006, 11:10
Yeah I think wd127 was the most exciting development for eldar- I loved them before that but was totally grabbed after that. The war paint designs for the aspects and all that background. I have to say as an old guard eldar player I am looking forward to the new codex and the challenges and opportunities it will bring. Its great to see your longtime army in a new fresh light, even if it doesn't have all your fav bits. I mean why pass up a chance to refresh your army rather than play the same way again and again?Judging from the nid dex and all the rumours I think the new codex will be filled with new opportunities and will give my fav army a new life. I don't mind the weaknessess in lists- part of the fun is getting round them.
And i am glad to hear the wave serpent isn't as bad as i heard- was thinking of gettin a couple - I saw one on ebay out of the box and it looked much better than the promo photos.

ionfish
16-05-2006, 11:15
Eldar have always been hated. It's really not down to the 3rd Edition codex, trust me. :)

Isambard
16-05-2006, 11:19
The list from 127 was wonderful, I loved the whole cycle of the Eldar from then on. The Eaxarchs with their awesome ancient weapons, the Avatar with Exarch Warrior powers (now that WOULD be a welcome return!), the whole idea of the fall of the Eldar etc, it neatly brought in a fantastic new major race for the game.

Lets just hope the new codex has the same impact.

Sildani
16-05-2006, 12:06
What Starcannon thing?

Gav apparently said the Starcannon's stats were unchanged excepting the number of shots, which are down to two.

Warp Zero
16-05-2006, 12:23
Gav apparently said the Starcannon's stats were unchanged excepting the number of shots, which are down to two.

Not that I was taking notes on every Starcannon use, but it seemed on average that I was hitting and killing 1 to 2 things per Starcannon. Some rounds, having up to 3 starcannons hitting obsolutely nothing. Now, with two shots I'll average about 1 kill per Starcannon if my luck stays even. Sounds like a Eldar AutoCannon of sorts. Wonder if the point cost will change....

Varath- Lord Impaler
16-05-2006, 12:32
well i thought that change was a given, now it does what it should, kill Heavy Infantry

Leave the hordes for the other weapons like shruiken cannons and scatter lasers.

Gethzerion
16-05-2006, 13:09
A quick plea - would anyone who is going to the next Games Day (Canada?) please ask about the Harlies?

I've had it confirmed that new models have been made, but I'm very concerned that I will have to dilute the army with other Eldar to field them.

EldarRaven
16-05-2006, 13:22
Eldar have always been hated. It's really not down to the 3rd Edition codex, trust me. :)

I believe it was the 2nd ed codex that did it. But I can not see how it was that powerful. I know there was a lot of crazy things that could happen with any army you played.


A quick plea - would anyone who is going to the next Games Day (Canada?) please ask about the Harlies?


I'm wondering why no one asked it at the last one. I would figure that people would try to see if they can get the guys to spill even a hint.

Mr Maloke
16-05-2006, 13:45
When and where is the next GD?

Iracundus
16-05-2006, 14:02
Is there any information on how they're boosting the other Eldar heavy weapons (Scatter laser, shuriken cannon, etc...)? So far all that seems to be flying around is the star cannon going down a shot. Or is GW denying there is any problem with the other options? If so they're missing the boat entirely, and all I see the star cannon shot reduction doing is encouraging people to take even more star cannons to maintain their anti-MEQ firepower.

Likewise are there any confirmed rumors of significant boosts to the underpowered units and areas of the Codex? So far between the star cannon shot reduction, the loss of offensive powers, loss of the Craftworld Codex, Wraithsight for Wraithlords, it sounds like this Codex is almost like a downgrade. Yes I know about the Avatar being boosted (and turning Special Character) and the 18" Avenger catapults, and the rumor of the Fire Prism having some sort of link shot or other special, but these all seem like relatively minor "flavor" boosts while the downgrades and existing flaws seem quite concrete and in places that matter.

Call me paranoid but my concern is the possibility the downgrades are more significant than the upgrades they're doing to the underpowered.

charlie_c67
16-05-2006, 14:05
Eldar have always been hated. It's really not down to the 3rd Edition codex, trust me. :)

I'm sorry but that comment is not only totally uncalled for but it is also blatanly untrue :mad:. If it was meant as a joke then it was a poor one and in bad taste. Eldar have not and are not hated else they wouldn't be here. What people object to is the abject constant whinging that somtimes appears on these boards bemoaning the fate of Eldar. Yes! OK people! We get it! Eldar aren't all they once were but then neither is a lot of things so get off the hobby horse, lose the negative attitude and start looking forward to the new and almost certainly vastly improved codex.

//Rant off

Cornelius
16-05-2006, 14:22
WD 127 was when the Aspect Warriors, Farseers, Warlocks and Avatar was introduced for 1st edition. These were all Jes Goodwin designed models as well.

Oh yes, someone remembers the good times! What is interesting is that Harlequins are a lot older than any of the Aspect Warriors, perhaps even older than the idea of Eldar paths. Before WD 127, Eldar were space pirates armed with shuriken catapults and the occasional lascannon, supported by stuff such as Spirit Warriors, Ghost Warriors, Dreadnoughts (Wraithlords) and War Walkers. When I think of it, the RT Eldar were very much like Dark Eldar warriors, except without transports.

Look at the beauties: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt04spaceelves.htm

Jon_Irenicus
16-05-2006, 14:22
I agree with you, Charlie_c67. The way people are responding to the future of the Eldar makes me think that the new codex will actually be Codex: Rhana Dandra...

Venkh
16-05-2006, 14:25
@Iracundus

I really wouldnt worry about the new codex. Just look at the new books for 4th ed. They have been universally better than the codicies they have replaced. GW are doing an exceptional job of 40k at the moment and Im sure that the trend will continue.

Sure, we will lose a few things, like all SC vyper Siam Hann and the 20 man seer council. What we will gain though, will be a well balanced codex full of really great stuff.

The good stuff in rumors i have heard so far:

- The Avatar will be more like a Bloodthirster than a slightly feeble Wraithlord
- The Harlequins will be back
- Exarch powers will conferred on the whole squad
- Avengers will be able to shoot 18" with their catapults
- The Eldar will regain the psychic dominance currently owned by the upstart librarians.
- The Fire Prism will be buffed in some way.
- The autarch will give us the option of a military commander HQ.

Im sure this is only the tip of the iceberg, just let the studio do their thing and bathe in the flow of Eldar goodness.

ionfish
16-05-2006, 14:53
I'm sorry but that comment is not only totally uncalled for but it is also blatanly untrue.Well, your experience must differ from mine. I certainly wasn't saying that everyone hated Eldar--far from it--just that it's not merely a recent phenomenon. The Eldar, compared to some armies, have had a hard time. Some people have taken this situation far too personally and spend worrying amounts of time moaning about it. However, they are a minority of Eldar players; they simply make a disproportionate amount of noise. You blowing a gasket hardly helps the situation. :rolleyes:

Yrandrasil
16-05-2006, 15:21
Well, your experience must differ from mine. I certainly wasn't saying that everyone hated Eldar--far from it--just that it's not merely a recent phenomenon. The Eldar, compared to some armies, have had a hard time. Some people have taken this situation far too personally and spend worrying amounts of time moaning about it. However, they are a minority of Eldar players; they simply make a disproportionate amount of noise. You blowing a gasket hardly helps the situation. :rolleyes:


Sorry to say Ionfish... you are correct, and nothing will change it!

There is always a bit of friendly "My army is better than your army" chattering that goes on.

Recently, I have a number of games versus different opponents using tailored armies. The specialized troops of the Eldar lend to success if you know what your opponent will be bringing. Unfortunately, there were tons of screams of cheese, beardy, etc....

So, even though I am hopeful that the new codex will be better balanced, there are groups on both sides (eldar and non-eldar) that will make tons of noise! I guess we all must choose to ignore them!

Later

Messiah
16-05-2006, 16:20
Look at the beauties: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt04spaceelves.htm

Yeah, they really look good. Which is why I like the new models so much, they bring back some of that old feeling to the Eldar. I really have high hopes for the as yet unshown Eldar models, but going by what theyve already shown us, theyre in the clear by a mile!

Jon_Irenicus
16-05-2006, 16:37
@Venkh: I´m not at all worried, so far positive feedback is seen pouring from the 4th ed. Good thing they also ditched the "anorethic codex" approach from 3rd ed. That was one of the stuff, IMHO, that led to powergamming. Playing solely for the rule of cool is a terrible, terrible thing.

I´m not saying that it´s the case with the Eldar ´dex, but admittedly, the 2nd ed one was beautifully packed... All those stories, all the fluff... yep, that was the good stuff.

Dr.Chud
16-05-2006, 16:44
re: Black Guardians

with a generic codex, the fluff wont really mesh with what happens on the table (surprise). I think the most logical rationalization will simply be that after the trials of tribulations of EoT, Medusa, and all the other fighting is that Ulthwe has lost the flower of its army. Being shuffled across the galaxy putting out fire after fire has left manpower critically short and the surviving Black Guardians have either returned to society, moved on to one of the Aspect temples, or remained behind as squad leaders or specialists.

After all, Saim Hann bikes wont be any better than anyone elses now right?

charlie_c67
16-05-2006, 16:48
Agreed Jon, and whilst I know it's a minority (hence the whinging sometimes taking over) it's the same subject time after time blaming GW all the time with no suggestions of improvements. If the peeps at Druichi.net can assist GW and get their thoroughly playtested ideas written up in WD as an errata then what's stopping the Eldar players out there?

I'm looking forward to the new 'dex as it will hopefully give my harlies a run out again. If not then oh well but life won't end. One can argue that Eldar have had a lot more love than other races in some areas but not in others. Be happy that they've had a codex every edition and haven't been left behind!

Jon_Irenicus
16-05-2006, 16:58
And they´ve got some of the loveliest miniatures, and are the most allowing regarding painting. Eldar truly deserve to be works of art. And while the Falcon is running a bit behind (even more than the Vyper) with it´s forms in my opinion, it is still an intriguing piece to gaze upon.
In the hands of the skilled modeller/painter, the miniatures themselves are a prize, with or without a decent codex.

sindarelve
16-05-2006, 18:32
It has been shown on the Baltimore's GD but seems nobody have commented nothing on it.

Lockheed
16-05-2006, 18:35
What's the upgrade there? I think it has an extended rear end, but I can't tell really...

Brimstone
16-05-2006, 18:35
Thats because it's been covered before and Baltimore GD added nothing new.

I'm going to merge this thread with the Baltimore GD discussion.

sindarelve
16-05-2006, 18:38
Yeah, you got it. That and a wider turret with the same kind of rear-extension (shown before in a WIP) that cannot be apreciated on the picture, that's all. If just we got another poit of view....

Oh, sorry for posting a new tread, sure here is the right place. Thanks for the tour Brim.

Jon_Irenicus
16-05-2006, 18:44
Extended back, re-designed turret, probably sporting the weapon ugrades from the wave serpent kit... Maybe if they somewhat put a "melting" falcon into a wind tunnel they´d get the lines I was hoping for :)

Orbital
16-05-2006, 19:02
Not that I was taking notes on every Starcannon use, but it seemed on average that I was hitting and killing 1 to 2 things per Starcannon.

Just for fun, I thought I'd interject that a Starcannon now statistically kills 7.5 Marines per game if they're standing out in the open. 1/3 less would still be decent.


Leave the hordes for the other weapons like shruiken cannons and scatter lasers.

I like the Shuriken Cannon for hordes. What I don't like is how close they have to get before I can use it on them. :)


Well, your experience must differ from mine. I certainly wasn't saying that everyone hated Eldar--far from it--just that it's not merely a recent phenomenon.

What I find is that vocal people in the community speak out frequently and loudly about how much they hate Eldar, but it's still a situation where a few people speak for many. In day-to-day life, you don't run into many gamers who outright "hate" another army, Eldar or otherwise. To most people in the hobby, the Eldar are just one cool army and interesting opponent out of many.


Look at the beauties: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt04spaceelves.htm

I'm not sold. Too many of them look like they're from Flock of Seagulls (http://www.80smusiclyrics.com/images/afos.jpg) to me...


After all, Saim Hann bikes wont be any better than anyone elses now right?

Well, the thing is... Black Guardians might have been given that extremely modest buff because Ulthwe is limited in how many Aspects it can take, so the basic infantry needed a bit of an edge that it wouldn't otherwise be getting. Saim Hann can take any unit they wish... and few people complain about being able to take Vypers as troops.


[Forgeworld Falcon Upgrade]It has been shown on the Baltimore's GD but seems nobody have commented nothing on it.

WOW!!! Now that is GREAT to see!!! I've been waiting on this one... I haven't added any Falcons to my army because I've been hanging on to see where this was going to go. It's a beauty...


Thats because it's been covered before and Baltimore GD added nothing new.

You may have seen that photo before, but I sure haven't. I consider it to be quite new.

Bregalad
16-05-2006, 19:50
Even I can't remember that one, although I normally have a good memory of previous postings (and if it's not in the rumours roundup and even Orbital hasn't heard about it, then something is wrong). Perhaps it was hidden in some lengthy star cannon discussion. Can someone give a link to the posted info? Is it just the looks or also a weapon/equipment/rules upgrade?

Orbital
16-05-2006, 19:54
Well, months ago Forgeworld published one of their newsletters and said "Check out this Falcon upgrade we're working on (http://www.forgeworld.com/wip.htm)", and then months went by with no updates. This is the first *new* thing I've seen on that upgrade in a very long time... and because I desperately want one (okay, three), I've been keeping my eyes peeled for it.