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Samurai33
18-10-2012, 11:59
Gents,

As the title says I'm looking for some input on how nids seem to be affected by 6th ed. I'm considering getting a nid army on ebay consisting of both shooting and CC units (several MCs included), but have the impression that nids were not as "fun" in the last edition.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

danny-d-b
18-10-2012, 12:15
nids seem to have drawn the short straw this eddition- the inablitly to take allys, the inablitly to man fortifications effectively plus the additional power that shooting has over CC generally means they have lost out- you can still have a fun game if your local players are more for 'fun' rather than top end commeptative but they are cetranly in the bottom end of the power spectrum for power lists

nedius
18-10-2012, 13:01
Nids are far from useless. Things like the trygon are very effective, and poison horms can glance vehicles to death.

That said, they are far from hugely effective, and will remain so for what may be the entirety of this edition. Very limited AA in a flyer-strong game, a high reliance on CC with no assault grenades an edition which really punishes this. The codex seems dated, even though it is one of the more recent ones.

Nids are fun, but you'll be relying on luck more so than others in order to win, and have very limited options if you want to be particularly effective.

Terabyt3
18-10-2012, 13:38
Nids can be incredible if played right. MC biomancy spam is deadly. Warp speed, iron arm, haemorrhage and enfeeble? Definitely a potent combo

de Selby
18-10-2012, 13:48
In 5th they couldn't hurt vehicles. In 6th they can't hurt flyers. They lost assault after outflank but gained access to some good psychic powers. Feed is better now. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Ragnar69
18-10-2012, 13:54
I have been at 2 tournaments for 6th so far, with mainly very competetive tournament junkies taking part (some have travelled over 350 miles) and Nids did really well. I wouldn't write them off as it seems to be the consensus here. If used properly they can be very scary.

Lord Inquisitor
18-10-2012, 13:55
I would have thought the return to true fearlessness for synapse would be a huge boost to Tyranids, more than any other army. Wasn't that the big complaint in 5th?

de Selby
18-10-2012, 14:36
Dammit, I knew I'd forgotten to list a major one. Not taking extra wounds for fearlessness is a boost for nids. But with all the other changes I still say it's a wash.

Megad00mer
18-10-2012, 14:47
6th edition is a mixed bag for Tyranids. Some of the changes really help. Others really hurt. Tyranids are still an army that will struggle in competitive settings but some different reasons than 5th.

Positives
-Monstrous Creatures have gotten better. Easier to grab cover. Fear, though it can't be relied on, can be useful. Smash is great for killing Multiwound models.
-Less vehicle spam and more boots on the ground means Tyranid shooting (which is mostly geared toward anti infantry) has gotten more effective.
-Non Flyer Vehicles are a bit easier to deal with.
-Being Fearless is now actually a good thing again. "No Retreat" wounds from loosing a close combat are a thing of the past. Big broods of Gaunts/Gants/Goyles can be great tarpits.
-Ymgarls, as one of the few units that can assault from reserve, have gotten more valuable.
-Biomancy can be truly frightening on a Tyranid MC.
-Boneswords are one of the few CC weapons in the game that flat out ignore armor saves.

Negatives:
-No assault grenades hurt in 5th. It's even worse now in 6th. Not only are we striking at I 1 but we are also taking Overwatch fire on the way in.
-No reliable way to deal with enemy fliers other than 260pt (at least) Flying Hive Tyrants that can fall out of the sky if they are nicked by a lasgun, or have a flashlight shone at them. (same thing maybe? :angel:)
-Close combat, though still deadly as ever, is harder to get to. Tyranids are slower overall (no more Run + Charge via Fleet), cover is reduced to 5+, and Overwatch can hurt and/or deny you a crucial charge.
-Tyrants, Fexes, T-fexes still horribly over costed.
-No access to allies makes sense fluff-wise, but causes us to lack a major advantage that every other army has.
-No assaulting from Outflank really hurt Genestealers and has made the Hive Commander upgrade borderline useless.

I'd say power-wise, Tyranids are about where we were at the end of 5th. Can be a fun army to play in non-competitive settings, but will struggle in tourneys. Dark Eldar and Grey Knights still eat our lunch.

unknown_lifeform
18-10-2012, 15:46
The changes to fearless and the ease with which tanks are ripped apart in CC are both huge buffs for nids. The new challenge rules can also prove useful for MC anxious to avoid power fists. However the reduction to cover saves and ability to focus fire stuff out of cover makes them even more fragile, especially swarms. Dealing with flyers is also an issue.

I've been having a lot of fun with my nids and my impression is that they are overall actually a fair bit better than in 5th. You can certainly have fun with them, but probably not if your opponent is using flyer spam. Although that isn't actually fun to face with any army, just most other armies deal with it better.

Kevlar
18-10-2012, 16:09
I think the no allies thing with Tyranids is a travesty. I mean it isn't like they adhered to fluff with some of the battle brother/allies. Tyranids could even have allies if you played them as genestealer cult fifth columnists. Hell then they could ally with just about anyone save necrons or daemons.

Reasonable Commissar
18-10-2012, 17:59
Ive fought against them pretty often and they seem to do quite well especially with Biomancy buffing the MCs. Flyrants seem to be the best against flyers with the TL devourers but can be grounded but Ive found grounding them is a lot harder than it sounds as you need to hit them first and you only make 1 grounding test per unit that hits you not per shot.

wyvirn
18-10-2012, 18:03
We got an army wide boost (Fearless, hull points, Smash, just to name a few) in exchange for the only really viable tactic we had (deep strike/outflank surge). Right now, genestealers are too fragile to last a turn of shooting and still be killy, so the only really good troops choice we have is devilgaunts or tervigons, which is a huge drag for me.

Xeen
18-10-2012, 18:16
Has anyone ever tried a Nid army that is filled to the max with cheap troops with synapse in the unit (I don't know if possible). I played a guy with a list like this and he had so many models that I couldn't kill them all with all my shooting. I was wondering if anyone has had sucess with this type of army?

Phazael
18-10-2012, 18:17
The same fundemental problem of 5th edition exists. Namely, the closest thing to a competitive build is Tervigon spam but that autodies to JotWW, which is extremely common in competitive play. The flyers are actually a non issue, because there is almost no build that can be broomed fromt he table by cron flyspam and thats the version that racks up the most shooting kills per point. The psychic toys and fearless changes were the biggest boosts they got, but the core issues of the book remain and make it the same one dimensional army book it was before.

soultaker87
18-10-2012, 19:57
the no allies thing was a big screw up for us, since alot of tournaments wont run 2000 point games to alow us to get a secound force org. going to tournys to see GK/DA and CSM/DoC really sucks for my nids. I have started to try to run large swarms of gaunts/venomgaunts and they do work, just watch out for your support units and MC's or your troops will just get stuck.

TheBearminator
18-10-2012, 20:11
Played two 6th edition games involving nids. Once against an ig/space wolves alliance and once in an unholy alliance with ig against space wolves/eldar.

We found that they really suffer in 6th. Especially if you play them close combat style. Hormagaunts must be among the most overpriced troops in the entire game. Sadly.

Grocklock
18-10-2012, 20:19
Has anyone ever tried a Nid army that is filled to the max with cheap troops with synapse in the unit (I don't know if possible). I played a guy with a list like this and he had so many models that I couldn't kill them all with all my shooting. I was wondering if anyone has had sucess with this type of army?

I have played against a guy who spammed gaunts both kinds and Tervigons I have never faced a more difficult army. My guard couldn't kill enough of them before they hit my lines and my orks couldn't kill enough of them in combat before I was wipped out.

Yes they cannot deal with flyers. So what. Flyers are not that great yes they are hard to hit but nids like orks have the key and that is weight of fire. Which is key for bring in down these machines.

Vampiric16
18-10-2012, 20:33
Hormagaunts must be among the most overpriced troops in the entire game. Sadly.

Are you serious? Toxin sac Hormagaunts are one of the best cc units in the game for their points. At half a space marine, you strike before them (I5), wound everything on 4's (so long daemon princes) and re-roll 1's to hit. Oh and 3 attacks on the charge, 4 if you let them out of synapse. Oh and they have fleet. I never leave home without them.

soultaker87
18-10-2012, 20:41
Are you serious? Toxin sac Hormagaunts are one of the best cc units in the game for their points. At half a space marine, you strike before them (I5), wound everything on 4's (so long daemon princes) and re-roll 1's to hit. Oh and 3 attacks on the charge, 4 if you let them out of synapse. Oh and they have fleet. I never leave home without them. agree, venomgaunts are great. took out a 5 man unit of Blood crushers with a unit of 20 and they killed them without even losing half of my unit.

Xerkics
18-10-2012, 20:54
Not having assault grenades is by far the most annoying thing about Tyranids. I just hate it so much. You might just as well give them all init 1 as im always forced to charge through or into cover by players exploiting this.

Carnage
18-10-2012, 20:54
Are you serious? Toxin sac Hormagaunts are one of the best cc units in the game for their points. At half a space marine, you strike before them (I5), wound everything on 4's (so long daemon princes) and re-roll 1's to hit. Oh and 3 attacks on the charge, 4 if you let them out of synapse. Oh and they have fleet. I never leave home without them.

Hormagaunts ARE one of the worst troops in the game actually, lets start dissecting your reply and explain why.

1.At half a space marine (Toxin hormagaunt)

So, 8 point gaunt vs 16 point tactical marine? News flash, tactical marines also contend for the worst troop in the game. Try comparing against a 13 point chaos marine, 15 point Grey Hunter or a 6 point shoota boy. Hell, compare against a 5 pt Termigant or 20 pt death company.

2. you strike before them (I5).

Never. You NEVER strike before them when you charge. What crappy marine player is letting you charge his crappy tactical marines in open ground? Lack of frag grenades is painful.

3. wound everything on 4's.

Not like nids have any issues with T5+ guys anyways, and wounding on a 4+ isn't exactly amazing these days, especially when most solid melee troops will be wounding hormagaunts on a 3 at worst, probably a 2+. Note; demon princes are mediocre now and are no longer competitive.

4. Oh and 3 attacks on the charge, 4 if you let them out of synapse. Oh and they have fleet.

Any semi-decent melee unit is going to have 3+ attacks on the charge. Hell, some of the top end units put out 5+ each. Letting your units out of synapse is dicey as well, as (if I remember correctly anyways) they have a LD of 6. Not only will they only have rage ~60% of the time they are out of synapse, they will be broken and run down the first combat they lose. I wouldn't take them out of synapse unless I was 100% sure of a local victory.

If you'd like, I can make up some charts and graphs showing their killing power per point against other top end units, but I don't really feel like wasting my time at work. It's fine if you like hormagaunts, or they work for you, but don't go spouting that they are a good unit in the grander scheme of things as they are most certainly not.

daemonprinceyourself
18-10-2012, 22:27
But a hormagaunt is a troop choice, obviously compared to elite CC specialists they will fall short. I am not saying they are one of the best troops choice for their points such as the ones you listed, but I feel they can be decent enough.

As for my thoughts on tyranids, I think they can be quite pretty good. Biomancy definitely helps greatly. I can say from multiple experiences that the Swarmlord is one tough bastard since he generates 4 powers and can use 2 a turn. His hive commander makes all reserves come in on 2+ turn 2 which works great. Brings in some trygons, ymgarls, and zoanthropes turn 2. Plus he is tough enough that it makes it nearly impossible for an opponent to get the slay the warlord point.

Tervigons are still great and can catch cover easier now. Granting FNP is a great psychic power.

For all those that say Tyranids have no anti-air other than flyrants have not tried using Hive Guard apparently. Although they don't have sky fire, a squad a 3 has 8 str 8 shots THAT IGNORE COVER (aka jink)!! Oh and don't need line of site. Odds are you will get at least one hit with all their shooting, and most flyers are fragile enough that a str 8 weapon can be a threat. Sure other armies have access to more reliable methods of hurting flyers, but they are a viable enough option at this point in time. I guess I don't play anybody that uses more than one flyer though.

One other thought about Trygons, they have some pretty decent str shooting. Basically a heavy bolter. My buddy upgrades them to primes and it is assault 12. Basically he deep strikes two of them behind any of my marine tanks and glances me to death. Most rear armor is only 10 so it works very well.

To sum, I would say Tyranids have improved in 6th and can be at least average with their multiple MC's.

TheBearminator
19-10-2012, 00:00
I think there are a lot more qualified players with more experience from both 6th edition and the nidz codex. But I think one thing about Hormagaunts is that they shouldn't be played the way my pal uses em. As a one of its kind unit in an army full of very resilient monsters and other multiple wounds, high-toughness creatures with decent armour save. Better skip them (and take away the soft target for small arms fire), or go all out with gaunts (hoard army).

Xerkics
19-10-2012, 00:45
Buying hormagaunts upgrades kinda defeats the point for me also you really dont want them out of synapse , you can lose a 20+ strong unit to their low leadership and thats not pretty . WS means they are actually not as good as people make them out to be even with rerolls on 1s. And you never go first EVER. Horde units should be cheap to make the most of them. You have genestealers or hive guard or mc if you want to pop tanks among other things hormagaunts attacking tanks are not doing their job.

Nubl0
19-10-2012, 01:34
Really? I ran a squad of 30 venomgaunts today and let them out of synaspe, they charges a biggish unit of csm, won combat easy thanks to have 4 attacks each on the charge. tervigon caught up with them eventually but they didn't really need the fearless. Also I loved spamming biomancy on pretty much all my synapse creatures bar zoans. No one expects the broodlord with smite haha! Also shadow in the warp being one of the best unerfed defenses against pyskers is kinda nifty to have around. Cannot stress how cool it was watching an amped up swarmlord hand abbadon his butt today either!

Vampiric16
19-10-2012, 09:45
Hormagaunts ARE one of the worst troops in the game actually, lets start dissecting your reply and explain why.

1.So, 8 point gaunt vs 16 point tactical marine? News flash, tactical marines also contend for the worst troop in the game. Try comparing against a 13 point chaos marine, 15 point Grey Hunter or a 6 point shoota boy. Hell, compare against a 5 pt Termigant or 20 pt death company.

See, I've faced every single one of those units bar the new CSM with Hormagaunts. Providing I get the charge off, they're usually toast unless I roll very poorly. On paper, certainly they are great, but they don't stand up to so many attacks. Orks will be striking last against them (unless I go through cover of course), and really dont do well: they rely on the higher toughness to carry them through (poor save). The marines fair better with the 3+ of course, but sheer weight of attacks usually does it. Also consider that I rarely charge those sort of units (Hunters, death company, etc) without having shot them first.

2. Never. You NEVER strike before them when you charge. What crappy marine player is letting you charge his crappy tactical marines in open ground? Lack of frag grenades is painful.

Yes, lack of grenades is stupid on a combat orientated army. We get it. It's been long enough now that Nid players should have adapted and gotten on with it. I certainly have. As for 'what crappy marine player is letting me charge his crappy tac marines in open ground', the game isn't a textbook example. For example, if I blow up a rhino on it's way to an objective, the marines inside have to disembark. If I've played it right, they'll be out in the open. My marine opponents are far from 'crappy'.

3. Not like nids have any issues with T5+ guys anyways, and wounding on a 4+ isn't exactly amazing these days, especially when most solid melee troops will be wounding hormagaunts on a 3 at worst, probably a 2+. Note; demon princes are mediocre now and are no longer competitive.

Actually, our MC's are the only units that wound T5 on better than 4+ in combat. We have a sort of jump from S4 to S6. And any solid melee troops won't be fighting my Hormagaunts in a straight fight; they'll have been shot and hit by paroxysm (at the very least) before my Hormagaunts get there.

4. Any semi-decent melee unit is going to have 3+ attacks on the charge. Hell, some of the top end units put out 5+ each. Letting your units out of synapse is dicey as well, as (if I remember correctly anyways) they have a LD of 6. Not only will they only have rage ~60% of the time they are out of synapse, they will be broken and run down the first combat they lose. I wouldn't take them out of synapse unless I was 100% sure of a local victory.

Any semi-decent melee unit is gonna cost more than 8 points ;). 3 attacks is pretty damn good for a unit that I usually field at 20+ models. Yes the rage tactic is dicey, but works very well when it works. I don't do it all the time, only when I figure they've got a decent chance at wiping the enemy/killing more than them.

If you'd like, I can make up some charts and graphs showing their killing power per point against other top end units, but I don't really feel like wasting my time at work. It's fine if you like hormagaunts, or they work for you, but don't go spouting that they are a good unit in the grander scheme of things as they are most certainly not.

Charts are all well and good, but they won't do anything to convince me because in practice (for me at least), Hormagaunts have done nothing but consistently perform well. As for 'spouting' about them, I simply pointed out a few reasons why I believe them to be points effective contrary to the member I was replying to. And please don't refer to my opponents as crappy, Kurisu313 will be most upset ;)

Ventus
20-10-2012, 16:15
Hormagaunts are one of my favorite tyranid units. Though sometimes they perform fine, often they seem like a waste of points, especially when upgraded and they get obliterated before they reach the enemy. As much as I like the unit and try to include hormies in most of my builds I cannot really disagree with Carnage's points. What I have often found with assaulting and cover, especially in local tournaments, is that usually there is insufficient cover and the hormagaunts get pasted before they can do anything or there is sufficient cover for the unit you are attacking to have any surviving gaunts have to assault into cover. That and because many mech builds are still alive and well in my area have caused me to not normally upgrade the hormies as it is not worth it.

fubukii
20-10-2012, 19:11
Actually tyranids are very powerful this edition.

Flyrants are very good with dual devs. Fexes with dual devs are also very good. Gargs are some of the best 8 pt models in the game, tervigons are still amazing.

THe access to biomancy is great, FNP, easier cover saves, Hiveguard, True fearless, Good powers, Shadow in the warp, MC buffs, and flying MC hqs all make tyranids a great army. The latest big tournament was swarmed with tyranids (BFS), because they are a top tier army in this edition now used right. They still have bad units, but if you spam gaunts, tervs, Tyrants, and stuff like gargs, or hive guard you will do VERY VERY Well, due to the shifts in the meta.

The_Klobb_Maniac
20-10-2012, 20:05
-Hive guard are still awesome and kill flyers just fine
-MC Psychic powers can be rediculous
-Flying MCs exist now, and the shooty-flyrant is brutal
-fearless issues are gone
-initiative matters more (which is a buff to horms/warriors)
-mc's are some of the only AP2 at init weapons

there are some trade-offs, but nids got a massive boost this edition; IMO (and not IME because I don't have any nid players) they are probably T2ish. They'll hold their own against most armies out there and frankly.. I think DE will still have big problems if you remembered to take hiveguard and horms.

Swarms are also pretty good this edition.

Jorgandr
20-10-2012, 22:01
Also I loved spamming biomancy on pretty much all my synapse creatures bar zoans. No one expects the broodlord with smite haha!

Broodlords can't use Smite, since they have Ballistic Skill 0.

Mikial
21-10-2012, 03:46
It's a mixed bag, as always. Some things are good, some are not.

One of the good things is the flying MC. Very cool. The revision of Fearless is a big plus.

Snap fire against CC charges can be bad, but then, D'Gaunts can use it too when someone tries to get the charge on them, so it goes both ways.

In general, 6th Ed Nids are doing fine in our group.

Notanoob
21-10-2012, 04:07
Guys, please remember that when you are out of Synapse, you don't automatically go into Feed. You have to fail a LD test taken at the start of the movement phase first, then you can get your nice 2 extra attacks on the charge.

I have to say, while the changes appear to be a mixed bag, the overall effect has been a plus for Tyranids. We can tarpit enemies again and we can CC vehicles to death rather effectively. HPs are nice and much less frustrating.

The lack of frags, or some way to mitigate the lack of frags, is frustrating, as is overwatch.

For the stuff about Hormagaunts, I like them a fair bit, but I don't really see them as worth it over Gargoyles or Termagants+Tervigons. Gargs are faster, cheaper, come with blinding venom and can shoot, Termagants are cheaper (or free from the Terv) and more suited for holding objectives, and can be buffed plenty without psychic powers from the Terv.

Perhaps the most important point here is cheaper. Cover and FNP have been reduced; enemies can focus fire and overwatch. We no longer deal with dumb No Retreat wound, but we have to get into HTH first. 8 point Hormagaunts lose to 7 point Gargs here. Sure, it's only one point, but they're faster, potentially have HoW and can shoot for a little drop off in CC killyness.

Anyways, they're better off than Warriors. Man, I with they were T5 W2. That would solve most of their problems.

Ventus
26-10-2012, 16:59
Yeah T5 W2 warriors would be much better (maybe 5 points less). Unfortunately in 6th it appears the competitive nid lists all look pretty much the same (tervigon spam, hiveguard/zoey spam maybe w/Doom, double TL devourer flyrant/swarmlord, maybe gargs). An errata could so easily fix up many dex issues and provide much better internal and external balance. With the latest rumours now on when DA will be released, followed by Tau and Eldar, (and the other dexes that are in line after), it seems doubtful that nids will get any attention until 2015 at the earliest (unless they jump the queue for some reason) - probably get a new dex 6 months before a new BRB edition is released screwing it all up.

Monodominant
26-10-2012, 21:05
As someone that played against it...

Double Flyrant withe devourers and Biomancy is pretty darn scary... Toughness 8 means even the Powerfist needs 4s to wound! And most shooting just bounces off!

damiengore
27-10-2012, 23:41
What's all thus about nids not being able to handle fliers? TL devourers on carnies and HT's and harpies and winged tyrants eat fliers for breakfast! Yea it's harder against AV 12 fliers but you can still man quad gun with BS 3.
Don't think anyone had mentioned a HT with a 2+ save and biomancy, total beast especially with some guard to dump AP 2 shots on!
Oh and one of the best anti-psyker army wide powers baring eldar stupid stones (cant wait for that buzz kill to drop in the next dex).
Doom, ymargls, trygons, warrior blobs, devil gaunts, Trevigons, yeah they're totally sub par!

murgel2006
29-10-2012, 20:05
May be I'm biased but Nids are even more scary in 6th than they were in 5th and 4th and 3rd and 2nd.
I know lots of people complain about the reserve and outflank attacking but those are rules which apply to all armies not just nids AND nids have the toys to avoid those situations.

Frankly, currently I feel nids are one of the top 4 armies IF you are not playing min/max tourney but play for fluffy lists. In the other environment they are still very very good.
Why? well, even with wall of death flamers and overwatch in full BS divination there are possibly 30 gaunts or hormagaunts in this unit! Warriors are a viable gun unit etc.
No, I think Nids are still very very good.

rocdocta
31-10-2012, 04:23
Nids are far better but still a rubbish codex.

the Good
- no jink saves allowed vs hive guard. 6 shots may = 1 hit. combine it with the swarm lord pref enemy and they are ok.
- dakka MCs can now drop fliers and wreck vehicles from hull points alone
- aim a large brood of posion horms at a unit and watch rage go nuts! 4 attacks each is rather nice. but is hard to reliably pull off.
- smash attacks can damage vehicles nicely
- crush attacks now makes every MC a tank killer. but now makes it even worse to take a carnifex.
- Fearless not causing wounds is a beautiful thing!
- hull points is a great thing for us
- charge distances mean that should be on average 1 inch better off. hardly a swap for fleet.

The Ok
- over watch is not as bad as people may think. 20 bolter shots vs T3 = 3 hit = 2 wounded. Cant cause a panic test. Make the unit big and you are good to go. flamers will make you sad if used in numbers ie 3 x D3 can be up to nine. can strip 6 T3 guys off. but then a big unit should be able to nail the unit being charged.

The Ugly
- fliers used en masse will swamp your defenses and wont be much fun
- no allies or forts was a terrible idea and penalises an already bad codex.
- still a bad codex when compared to necrons and GKs etc.
- losing fleet extra d6 move makes our army slow slow to get any where. ie stealers could theoretically average 6+3.5+6 for a charge for atotal of 15.5 inches. now they move 6+7 for a charge avaerage of 13 inches. ok fleet grants a reroll for charge but at best it might be similar to what it was but not better.

may see a bit of a change up for nid lists which is nice but 6th is not that friendly to nids when compared to my necron army.

sprugly
31-10-2012, 10:22
Just as a point of interest, the average charge distance for a unit with fleet in the open is a little over 9".

So 5th edition was 15.5 threat range per turn and 6th is 15 and a bit (not sure exactly what the fraction is). Charging really isn't that much worse off overall, just far less reliable at long distances.

Sprugly

Shamana
31-10-2012, 16:07
"- still a bad codex when compared to necrons and GKs etc."

Join the club of nearly every codex in existence :P .

wyvirn
31-10-2012, 16:55
True, but GK are a particularly hard counter to Tyranids, particularly halbred purifier spam. They can out shoot tyranids, wipe out half the horde before any blows are struck, and can insta-gib our monstrous creatures.

MajorWesJanson
31-10-2012, 17:32
Locally, Nids have discovered the warp. Lots of psykers, and enfeeble is terrifying en mass. Once a unit is down to T3/T2, they become easy prey for even devourers.

NerZuhl
01-11-2012, 03:42
Heavy Venom Cannons got far worse even if they are more likely to hit vehicles now at full str and has zero chance of affecting fliers. Same for the tyrannofex, whose cannon is worse this edition. Hive guard are damn near a requirement for tyranid lists now. And forced choices are a cardinal sin for any codex.

Carnage
01-11-2012, 04:27
Heavy Venom Cannons got far worse even if they are more likely to hit vehicles now at full str and has zero chance of affecting fliers. Same for the tyrannofex, whose cannon is worse this edition. Hive guard are damn near a requirement for tyranid lists now. And forced choices are a cardinal sin for any codex.

I don't know where you were in 5th, but the tyranno-fex and venom cannons sucked, and Hive guard were a requirement at that point as well.

Almost every codex has forced choices if you are playing from a competitive point of view.

NerZuhl
01-11-2012, 04:33
I don't know where you were in 5th, but the tyranno-fex and venom cannons sucked, and Hive guard were a requirement at that point as well.

Almost every codex has forced choices if you are playing from a competitive point of view.

T-Fexes weren't bad in 5th. Many lists featured 1-2 of them. I will agree venom cannons sucked, but at least they "could" kill a tank.

Outside of troops, most codexes actually don't have a unit that you MUST take to be competitive. Some are obvious choices, but aren't a requirement.

underhivetrader
01-11-2012, 09:33
What do people think of running big blocks of stealers? Say having 30 to 50 on the board? Is the increased effectiveness worth the points spend in small 1500pts or less games?

Vipoid
01-11-2012, 10:49
T-Fexes weren't bad in 5th. Many lists featured 1-2 of them.

They were terrible in 5th.

It's just that, in larger games, there was no real alternative.