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View Full Version : If C:SM was the only SM book around, how would you play Wolves/Angels/Knights?



OgreBattle
19-10-2012, 10:47
Say Loyalists were in the same lot as Chaos and had to represent all chapters with one book, C:SM

How would you go about doing so?
Which special characters would you use to represent Mephiston, Ragnar, Azrael and so on?

How would a space wolves themed army look? Grey Knights? What would you use for Death Company?

Poseidal
19-10-2012, 11:30
Instead of Chaos Marks, your HQs would have 'founding father' if they are Warlord, which would do the following (replacing combat tactics for all squads), Special Characters are obviously set with their own primarch:

Guilliman: Combat tactics
Dorn: Stubborn, Tacticals may swap Bolter for CCW; Scouts may buy Power Armour but lose Infiltrate and scouty bits if they do. May 'blob squad' scout and tactical units at start of battle, up to 20 models.
El'Johnson: Stubborn, Terminator HQ allows Terminator troops, Bike or Jetbike HQ allows Bike Troops
Sanguinius: Furious Charge, Assault Marines and Scouts swap in force organisation, allows Death Company unit and Overcharged Engine upgrade for x points.
Khan: Furious Charge, Bikes and scout bikes swap with Scouts in force organisation

Things like the Furioso (what is it? a 2 power fist dreadnaught) would just be available to all, along with Stormraven, Land Raider variants and all.

Haven't thought of one for Vulkan or Corax yet, and Russ is hard to do. Combat Tactics should be an Ultramarine thing and their advantage.

diggerydoom
19-10-2012, 11:46
Corax- gives infiltrate to vetrans?

Lord Damocles
19-10-2012, 12:09
Blood Angels
- Paint in Blood Angels colours and markings
- Emphasis on Assault Sqauds, Vanguard*, characters with Jump Packs
- Death Company as Vanguard
- Ironclad Dreadnoughts as Furiosos (there's really no reason for either of these to exists as seperate units - just give the basic Dreadnought the option of two close combat weapons and call it a day; Blood Angels aren't the only Chapter to use assault Draeds, after all)
- Mephiston is the only character who might warrant seperate rules, but no major problem with rolling him into a more generic Chief Librarian choice

Space Wolves
- Paint in Space Wolves colours and markings
- Grey Hunters as Tactical Squads without heavy weapons
- Give Tactical Squads the choice of swapping Bolters for Chainswords (for a cost (?)) allows for Blood Claws
- Terminator Sqauds (roll assault and tactical into one unit), Vanguard, and Sternguard** for Wolf Guard
- Scouts back to WS/BS4 for Wolf Scouts
- Vanguard as Wulfen
- Characters not a serious problem
- Drop giant Wolves

Dark Angels
- Paint in Dark Angel colours and markings
- Terminator Squads as Deathwing
- Bike and Landspeeder Squads as Ravenwing
- Captain on Bike makes Bikes troops choices. Captain in Terminator Armour makes Terminators troops choices
- Characters not a serious problem (Master of the Ravenwing can go back to riding a bike)

Black Templars
- Paint in Black Tempars colours and markings
- Don't take any Librarians
- Tactical Squads with Chainswords for Crusader Squads
- Initiates and Neophytes split into seperate units (Tactical/Scout squads)
- Characters not a serious problem

Grey Knights
- Seperate mini allies list


*Re-name vanguard Veterans simply 'Vanguard' and use to represent things like Death Company, Wulfen, Vanguard Veterans, cursed founding Abominations etc.
**Re-name Sternguard simply 'Veterans', give 'em uber-grit and lots of weapon options (shooting and combat); get rid of specialist ammo


Done. One Codex. No variation for variations sake. Easier to balance externally. Game less Marines vs. not Marines.

A.T.
19-10-2012, 12:25
Say Loyalists were in the same lot as Chaos and had to represent all chapters with one book, C:SM

How would you go about doing so?The local BA player did exactly this while they were pampleted - he just painted them red and carried on as normal. Dark Angels have nothing other than scoring terminators over the vanilla dex, and grey knights would be better suited going back to their old inquisition/allies form.

Templars and wolves have more diverse setups, FW charcadons or the siege list wouldn't be a bad start but from the core book - paint them in the right colours and stand-in the characters just like every other chapter.

Poseidal
19-10-2012, 12:33
The extent of the real Templars difference can be done with a blob squad, swapping bolters for chainswords and not taking stuff for your other entries.

Actually, the Wolves can be done easily. Drop the current rules and just have an entry for Marine Cavalry, who are Cavalry mounted rather than Bike mounted and follow the Cavalry rules from the main rulebook, with maybe a profile +1 Attack. This also allows you to customise themed marines who ride their chapter's chosen animal, so Space Wolves still get to ride their wolves and you can model Astral Panthers riding panthers or whatever.

Elios Harg
19-10-2012, 13:58
At this point to do it without invalidating anyone's models, you would have to include all of the following into Codex: Space Marines:

mix n' match Deathwing style terminators for everyone, space marine cavalry, Captains with an option for Jetbikes, Baal predators, librarian dreadnoughts, storm ravens, Grey Knights (at a minimum terminators, strike squads, purgation squads, dread knights and brother-captains). I'm likely missing a few marine units that cannot adequately be represented by a C:SM unit.

You would then need to release a Codex: Inquisition or otherwise find a home for Inquisitors, Death Cult Assassins, Jokaero and the other henchmen (or force people to play Sisters) and the 4 oficio assassins.

A.T.
19-10-2012, 14:17
You would then need to release a Codex: Inquisition or otherwise find a home for Inquisitors, Death Cult Assassins, Jokaero and the other henchmen (or force people to play Sisters) and the 4 oficio assassins.TBH a codex:astartes with the core chapters, and a codex:crusaders with templars, sisters, GK, and inquisition is all that is really needed - you could easily cover all your bases without exceeding 50 units.

Poseidal
19-10-2012, 14:48
At this point to do it without invalidating anyone's models, you would have to include all of the following into Codex: Space Marines:
I think it can be done, the ones you've listed are mostly just single entries or a single wargear option in an existing entry.

mix n' match Deathwing style terminators for everyone,
Deathwing can be done easily by subtituting Terminators as Troops if you have a Terminator Captain.


space marine cavalry
New entry, but not without precedent from Rogue Trader (remember the Raptor riding marines?)


Captains with an option for Jetbikes,
One line in his unit entry.


Baal predators
Just add Assault Cannon, Multimelta and Heavy Flamer options to the predator entry for the appropriate slot in turret or sponsons.

librarian dreadnoughts
Probably should never have existed, but now it does it can be done with just stats and keywords. Librarian Dreadnought for X points, Psychic Pilot, Master Level 1, rolls on the tables for Marine Librarians can roll on.

storm ravens
Since it's made, and a Space Marine vehicle, why not?


, Grey Knights (at a minimum terminators, strike squads, purgation squads, dread knights and brother-captains). I'm likely missing a few marine units that cannot adequately be represented by a C:SM unit.
Grey Knights and Space Wolves are the hardest, but GK could still be done Legion of the Damned style, or as dedicated allies who can make a primary list too. I think Hellebore made a one-page list that mods C:SM into Space Wolves quite easily, and they're one of the most divergent chapters.


You would then need to release a Codex: Inquisition or otherwise find a home for Inquisitors, Death Cult Assassins, Jokaero and the other henchmen (or force people to play Sisters) and the 4 oficio assassins.
How about Codex Allies?

You can have Inquisition, Officio Assassins, Eldar Corsair, Exodite and Harlequins, Ork Mercenaries, Demiurg auxiliaries, just to name the few.

RunepriestRidcully
19-10-2012, 14:48
True, and you could keep the likes of belail, samuel, ragner, ulric, Dante, mephistion ect as special charecters, a core list with a couple to half a dozen special charecters per rolled in marines list.
It would be great if this happened, though I think grey knights should still be separate, albeit back with the inquisition as daemon hunters.

omegoku
19-10-2012, 14:55
HQ
Captain can unlock FOC swaps (bikes as troops) or USRs (replace Combat tactics with Infiltrate) by buying upgrades to represent different chapters and companies
Add 3 W Librarian and Chaplain as options
Command Squad is changed to 5-10. given options to give them artificer armour, power wepons, standards, etc

Elites
Allow Sternguard can take Vanguard weapon options
Allow Ironclad to exchange weapons for blood talons style weapons
Allow Vet Dread to upgrade to Librarian
Allow 2 W Chaplain, Librarian, SM Champion, Techmarine, Apothecary to be taken in 3 for 1 FOC,
Allow Mixed Terminator squads, exchange SB and PF for LC for free or SS+ TH for 10 points

Troops
Tactical squads can take second special at inflated price
Tactical squads can exchange bolters for chainswords for free
Scout squads can blob with Tactical squads if correct unlock taken by captain
Scout squads can take LSS as Dedicated Transport
Scout squads can be upgraded to Veteran scouts (WS and BS 4) for X points

FA
All Land Speeder variants can be taken in squadrons of 1-3
Assault squads can exchange 2 special weapons for special CCWs
Bikes are cheap as Chaos versions
Vanguard can take Sternguard ranged weapons options
Storm Talon/ Storm Raven

Heavy Support
All rhino chassis vehicles can be given overcharged engines for large cost (included dedicated transports)
Allow all Predator variants
Whirlwind has access to all ammo varients for cost
All Landraider variants available
Devastators can exchange Heavy weapons for special weapons at inflated price
Heavy Flier goes here

Between assigning special rules and FOC messing using the captain, about the only option not allowed are thunderwolves, which are beyond the silly level imo

Blood Angels would have something like Captain that takes
Death from the Skies (30 points) - All 10 man Assault Squads can be purchased as troops choice and are scoring, they may combat squad as normal
Blood Lust (10 points) - All Command, Sternguard, Terminator, Vanguard, Assault and Tactical squads may purchase Furious charge for 30 points per unit, Captain has FC
then all rhinos would be given overcharged engines for X points per Rhino

Ssilmath
19-10-2012, 15:26
With all of the fluff, Special Characters, unit entries, paint schemes and unit options, that would make for a huge book. And when Codex: All Space Marines was released, Warseer would be alight with complaints that would make the latest Chaos release look like a mild disturbance. "75 Dollars for a book! Outrageous!" "I can't represent my Space Wolves properly with this book!" "Everyone knows that the Sons of Dorn are Fearless, not Stubborn!" And while some people would be glad to have a consolidated codex, they'd be shouted down by those who want separate codexes for each divergent Chapter.

TheDungen
19-10-2012, 15:26
For DA it only really matters if you play ravenwing or deathwing. add back the old trait system for chapter creation and its a way stronger tool that codex dark angels (atleast the current)

A.T.
19-10-2012, 15:31
Captain can unlock FOC swaps (bikes as troops) or USRs (replace Combat tactics with Infiltrate)If it was anything like the CSM dex they'd have troop unlocks depending on whether the captain took a jump pack, terminator armour, or a bike, a champion HQ for the crusader-style forces, and all of the USRs would all be restricted to named characters to help sell finecast.


Though the question appears to be - what would you do if you had to use the current dex, not what would you do if you were designing a combined dex. It's a slightly loaded question in that sense.




And when Codex: All Space Marines was released, Warseer would be alight with complaints that would make the latest Chaos release look like a mild disturbanceIf the complaints followed the same pattern as with the recent release of C:CSM there would be a dozen pages of whining about mantis warriors not having their own units.

nedius
19-10-2012, 15:42
I really wish they would do this... It would free up so much time for updating other codexes. Chapter releases could be handled via miniature release only, with special scenarios / new characters available in WD (sell those).

The thing is, they just won't. For all the "we're a miniature collecting company", they ,must make a ton from rulebooks. And there will be plenty of people who buy several different marine codexes. So anyone who plays Templars and Wolves will not spend 30, not 60.

Personally, I think they'd still spend that 30, just on the miniatures GW claim to care about most instead!

Then, there would be much more regular updates for codexes as there would be far fewer! So they would get more money out of xenos players; codexes that are not doing well would have a shorter 'poor sell' lifespan.

I do worry sometimes that GW are over extending themselves with the number of codexes and armies they need to be doing at any one time. If they could consolidate and streamline those, then they could focus more on quality than quantity, providing a better product that will then sell more.

Elios Harg
19-10-2012, 17:14
With all the special characters that they'd have to try not to invalidate... Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius, Sicarius, Telion, Kronos, Khan, Kantor, Vulkan, Shrike, Lysander, Dante, Mephiston, Tycho, Lemartes, Corbulo, Sanguinor, Astorath, Seth, Logan, Ragnar, Njall, Arjac, Loki, Bjorn, Canis, Ulrik, Azrael, Sammael, Ezekiel, Draigo, Stern, and Crowe, and those are only the ones I know of that have models, I'm guessing I'm missing a few without models of there own (for example Belial has no model so would be easier to "erase"). It would be a massive book if you include even half of those characters plus new units from folding in.

Then you have other issues. For example, I have 15+ landspeeders as a Dark Angels player because we have 1-5 per squadron plus 0-1 per ravenwing attack squadron (not a terribly difficult fix, just allow 1-5 landspeeders per squadron). Many Blood Angels players have 6 predators because they have 3 baal from fast attack and 3 normal from heavy. Blood Angels also have the ability to field up to 10 dreadnoughts currently without hitting 2000 points to allow dual FOC, and I know of at least one person that has an army with 8+ currently. Sure dual FOC at 2000 will help a little with that stuff, but it's a lot of armies being completely invalidated or a lot to account for in a single army list that will up the page count significantly.

Even if they were to remove most of the special characters and just say play them as chapter masters or captains or librarians instead, the result of rolling all of this into a single codex would be a monstrosity that is incredibly difficult to balance internally and has so many options that it's bound to dominate externally. The alternative being to cause a lot of models to either be superfluous or outright obsolete, which will drive people out of the hobby. Either choice isn't a good one. This cat was let out of the bag back in 3rd edition when the pamphlet books were made and there's no putting it back in.


Though the question appears to be - what would you do if you had to use the current dex, not what would you do if you were designing a combined dex. It's a slightly loaded question in that sense.

That's pretty easy to answer.

Blood Angels - Death Company, Sanguinary Guard = Vanguard Vets; Baal Predator can't be represented convert them into regular predators or razorbacks; Furiosos and Death Company = Ironclads; Librarian Dreads can't properly be represented but counts as Ironclad; Sanguinary Priests = Apothecaries; Storm Ravens get thrown in the trash heap or sold to Grey Knights players since Grey Knights can't be represented by the current C:SM in anything close to being accurate; any of the special characters can suitably represent a normal IC of some kind. Sell off a lot of your models if you built dread heavy, jump pack heavy, land raider heavy, priest heavy or some other build that I'm not thinking of that can't be represented by C:SM

Black Templars - Emperor's Champ = Chapter or Company Champ; expand your shooty terminators to 10 man if you want to keep your extra heavy; sword brethren = vanguard vets on foot; crusader squad initiates are represented by tactical marines or assault marines or by devastator squads without heavy weapons while neophytes are represented by scout squads, don't take any psykers

Dark Angels - Can't run full deathwing at all, but Deathwing itself can be somewhat represented by normal terminators by removing our CML/TH/SS guys and shuffling around mixed units so that we only have assault or tactical terminators. Sell off about 15 terminators since you can only field 30 in a C:SM list. Ravenwing, run Sammael as a counts as bike captain and switch to just bike squadrons as troops supported by smaller max size speeder squads. Sell off excess speeders and Sammael on landspeeder (or use him as a counts as normal speeder). Any of our special characters other than Sammael can be suitably represented by a normal IC version.

Space Wolves - Bjorn becomes a normal venerable Dread. Bloodclaws as assault marines on foot. Grey hunters as tactical marines, sell off your excess special weapons. Wolf Guard as terminators, sternguard, and vanguard depending on loadout, hope you have lots of powerfist, claw or thunder hammer bits to replace all those cheap power weapons on your wolf guard terminators. Long Fangs as devastators, you can throw those extra missile launchers into your "grey hunter" tac squads. Thunderwolves as counts as bike squadrons, otherwise impossible to represent.

Grey Knights - Just not really possible any more. The force weapons, stormbolters, psycannons, storm ravens, etc. just completely make it impossible.

Wyrmwood
20-10-2012, 01:28
What Lord Damocles said. There's really no need for four variant codices. Codex: Space Marines should be enough.

OgreBattle
20-10-2012, 01:38
The intent was to run all chapters with the current codex as is.

But if you want to wishlist, please keep it within the bounds of an existing GW codex (and not some mega-dex) in terms of number of characters and unit options.

Voss
20-10-2012, 02:43
Say Loyalists were in the same lot as Chaos and had to represent all chapters with one book, C:SM

How would you go about doing so?
Same way I did for years. Just used the army list as written, and recognize that minor background quirks are minor background quirks, and don't have any real place on the tabletop.

Which special characters would you use to represent Mephiston, Ragnar, Azrael and so on?
I'd still just ignore them. 24 years on and I still haven't used an 'I'm so special' character.

How would a space wolves themed army look?
Same as it does now.
What? Most SW armies are essentially tactical squads and small devastator squads

Grey Knights?
Back to the old days where all they had was a bonus vs. fear, a couple extra libbies, and some inquisitors jammed into their army list. Easily represented with allies, and sticking fearless characters into a unit.

What would you use for Death Company?
Marines in black armour.

RandomThoughts
20-10-2012, 08:12
I really wish they would do this... It would free up so much time for updating other codexes. Chapter releases could be handled via miniature release only, with special scenarios / new characters available in WD (sell those).

The thing is, they just won't. For all the "we're a miniature collecting company", they ,must make a ton from rulebooks. And there will be plenty of people who buy several different marine codexes. So anyone who plays Templars and Wolves will not spend 30, not 60.

Personally, I think they'd still spend that 30, just on the miniatures GW claim to care about most instead!

Then, there would be much more regular updates for codexes as there would be far fewer! So they would get more money out of xenos players; codexes that are not doing well would have a shorter 'poor sell' lifespan.

I do worry sometimes that GW are over extending themselves with the number of codexes and armies they need to be doing at any one time. If they could consolidate and streamline those, then they could focus more on quality than quantity, providing a better product that will then sell more.

Yeah. Still lurking on the board, but until my army gets an update (2014?), until they remove some of the core-clunckyness from the rules and until they rebalance the game a bit, I'm happy spending all my tabletop budget on Warmachine. And Infinity, eventually. Once I get round to it.

...

To the initial question, I think a unified marine codex would be a huge step back into the right direction: Vanilla list in front, chapter chapters in the back with SCs, Special Rules, unique units, etc. Same thing could be done for the other races then as well, Eldar book with Craftworld chapters in the back, Chaos Codex with Legion chapters in the back. Ork book with clan chapters in the back. List goes on. You know, for a company that's claiming to focus on the narrative approach to gaming, you'd expect a bit more ... focus on the background. Or is "narrative gaming" just a euphemism for random **** rolled up during games to make them less predictable?

Poseidal
20-10-2012, 08:57
Blood and Dark Angels are codex chapters for the most part so they can follow C:SM with just a few counts as. Just build the characters based in the Wargear they have equipped.

Templars only became different later in in life. When the were introduced, they pretty much followed Codex. If you want to keep the visual of chainsword marines, run lots of assault marines without jump packs, and take the squad with the chapter champion.

TheDungen
20-10-2012, 15:28
i say let characters buy warlord traits in next edition and you can have an army specific list of them including force organisation modifiers, and that could replace the idea that you use special characters to theme your force, (and work kind if like the old trait system)

Voss
20-10-2012, 18:57
Templars only became different later in in life. When the were introduced, they pretty much followed Codex.
This was the case with _everyone_, including wolves- there was a single Space Marine army list (once GW got around to army lists). Grey Knights had a _slightly_ different army list when they appeared in Slaves to Darkness, but it was a couple rules and a few pieces of buyable wargear (for characters, mostly). They still had tactical/assault/devastator squads, and standard organization. No one wandered into Special Snowflake land until 2nd edition.

Stonerhino
20-10-2012, 19:58
Say Loyalists were in the same lot as Chaos and had to represent all chapters with one book, C:SM

How would you go about doing so?
Which special characters would you use to represent Mephiston, Ragnar, Azrael and so on?

How would a space wolves themed army look? Grey Knights? What would you use for Death Company?You really can't and if you tryed you would end up with an army that doesn't resemble any of the armies you're trying to mix together. *You end up with codex Chaos Space Maines lite, or a completely exploitable codex that gets replaced shortly after*

For example you would need a Tactical squad entry that could represent current Tactical squads, Grey Hunters, and Crusader squads. Before you start in with "Character unlocks" remember that the base units for every legion was the same, unlike how chapters are now. Currently loyal space marines come in really three forms Codex, Crusader and Space Wolves.

With the Chaos Marines you can have a basic Chaos Marine Squad that is able to represent almost any marine troop in the game (exception being mixed crsader squads). Grey Hunters = CSM squad w/additional ccw, mark of Khorne and taking no heavy weapon. They end up being a little more expensive but are better on the assult by gaining "Rage" usr. Less if you include that you gain a cheaper "Wolf Guard" and benefits like Wolf Guard, 2 assult weapons and still fit in a rhino. And it works in that codex because it would not be uncommon for a warband to contain units/individuals from different parent organizations. So having a unit of Grey Hunters in the same army with basic tactical squads is no big deal. Where as with the loyal marines you have to give up an ally slot to do it.

Its more reastrictive for Loyal Space Marines to come in different codices because it limits the exploitability of their special rules. That's why GW dropped the Legion and SM Trait rules.

Disclaimer: Grey Knights are not Space Marines.

Voss
21-10-2012, 07:18
Disclaimer: Grey Knights are not Space Marines.

Except by background and rules. So... in every way that matters.

Of course, according to the designer's note in the Chaos Codex, by the rules, so are the inquisitors, henchmen, assassins and even jokaero. And their tanks. and presumably their little dogs, too.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-10-2012, 09:15
There really would be very little difference for my Dark Angel army, in fact it would be slightly better/cheaper if I had run it under C:SM rather than DA. It was 90%+ green marines anyway (with maybe a few Raven wing elements), I just like the imagery/background of DA. In fact I'd be quite happy to see DA get maybe a couple of special characters and a small handful of background pages in a C:SM and be done with it. I'm not very keen to see what GW is going to add to them to make them 'unique'.

Glenn87
21-10-2012, 17:31
Well, all they'd need are 2 codices.
1 C:SM, like in 3th edition, and then 1 Codex: Chapters.
Kind of like the smaller booklets in 3th, but then Combined.

C:SM would contain all of the standard Marine units (and hopefully not to much Ultrasmurf pictures/fluff), and Codex: Chapters would include entries for BA's, SW's, DA's, BT's and others.
I would give every Chapter their Chapter Master in the basic C:SM, and other SC's in the other codex.

The C:Chapters would be a bit like the Forgeworld books (for example: unit name: Death Company, "the Death Company are a 0-1 choice in a Blood Angels army chosen from C:SM")