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View Full Version : After 15 years in the hobby... I think I'm quitting.



0ld1eye
19-10-2012, 11:39
I've been a 40k player since I was 7. I've mucked about with nearly every army out there, have hundreds of models and thousands of hours painting and gaming. And I've come to the point where... well, I just don't enjoy it any more. And here's why.

1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly. I'm not talking about the cost of bog standard units, because a box of ork boyz or marines is fairly well priced. But for the less played armies like eldar, tau and daemons, playing such armies feels like a curse. You're bottlenecked into standard units because specialist units are more expensive by a massive margin - aspect warriors, battlesuits, meganobz and other fun shiny stuff all costs an arm and a leg, and with finecast (I was so excited about finecast when it was first announced, but now realise it's just cut off the possibility of reasonably priced plastic releases...) and depressing new release waves I'm failing to see much hope on the horizon for these costs to go down... Which means everyone is using the same damn stuff, though that's also because...

2) Power creep has gotten silly. Against standard lists, newer codexes don't seem that bad. But against themed lists from older codexes, lists that used to be viable if not optimal, they will utterly destroy them. I thought 6th ed would usher in an era of crazy themed lists, but everyone is using similar stuff or just chucking in a couple of extra models. It's depressing to see, and is probably because of...

3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint.

4) New releases invalidate old lists. I LIKE my highly themed eldar list. I USED to like my tyranids. When you're like me and play around with little used units and silly lists, a new release that invalidates 300 of models is a big deal. What if warp spiders become utterly useless in the next rulebook, or meganobz from my orks? That's a LOT of money for me. I already have 4 useless carnifexes from the old nid book, and I was one of the lucky ones... nidzilla lists were very common back then!

I have a couple of other minor issues, like the game having become special character centric - I much preferred it when you had your own commander with his own background, and special characters were opponents permission only - and the terrible cheesiness that seems to have infiltrated recent writing (OK, 40k has always been cheesy, but GOOD cheesy. The recent stuff is just... ugh. It feels less 'rule of cool' and more 'rule of make this sound awesome so everyone will use it') but those are minor complaints in the face of the big four.

So, to sum up, these days wacky themed lists aren't viable (which are the only lists I like. What's the point of having an awesome themed universe if no one will explore it in depth?), they're expensive, no one seems to play to have fun any more, and the entire hobby just seems depressing. I'm on the verge of selling all my models save the ones I want to paint, and finding something else to devote my energy towards... which is a shame, because I have so many fond memories. None of them are from recent months, though... sure, I could still keep using these lists. But I'd keep getting crushed, game after game, by generic powergamey lists... I'm not one of those people who can collect just for the sake of collecting, I NEED the gaming side too, but I play for fun, which constant slaughterfests are not.

Someone, motivate me.

mughi3
19-10-2012, 11:51
I feel the pain, i am a theme list player, i love the wacky army builds, i still miss my old 3rd ed fluff ravenwing force that was made illegal(at a cost of about $300 in no longer usable models) in one fell swoop by the 4th ed codex. i really loved my dreadnought centric 4th/5th ed list. it wasn't optimal but it sure put up a good fight, and was fun....now it is suicide to even consider putting it on the table for 6th ed.
our 40K league has fallen apart, half the guys dont even bring their stuff for 40K anymore. prefering other sytems. i still have most of my stuff from the last 5 or so years(not so much for the older sutff)......i am thining it is time to get my hands on some second edition 40K books to bring a bit of fun and skirmish level play back to the game.

EvilFuzzyDoom
19-10-2012, 12:15
Someone, motivate me.

Play Apocalypse games. You've surely got a collection spilling out your ears by now; you may as well use all of it. At 3000+ points, list selection pretty much stops mattering (and force organisation charts certainly go out the window), so what you bring to the table is not nearly as important as at lower levels. Everything dies, and the fun is had in much grander aspects of strategy and tactics.

It takes longer to play, which means you get to spend more gaming time at the board; WAAC players don't have the patience for long, narrative-driven games. Also, since they require some forethought & organisation, you can afford to be more choosy about who you play with. Alternatively, if you're playing at a store then it's going to be a much bigger event, so the individual players you have issues with, stop being such a problem.

You get a good excuse to pick up big ticket items like superheavies and forgeworld models. They're just cool.

All those power-creep problems melt away because there's just so much on the board that quantity trumps quality. More importantly, all those super-expensive combos and silliness just stop mattering because that one challenge over there means nothing compared to the 40-model offensive at the objective over here.

That's my spruik.

Lord Damocles
19-10-2012, 12:15
Contrary to semi-popular belief, everyone wasn't playing 'themed' lists back in the halycion days of Rhino rush, Starcannon spam, 3.5 chaos, invincible skimmers, or Nidzilla either.


If the people you're playing with aren't playing the way you want to play the game, that's not necessarily the game's fault.

Antipathy
19-10-2012, 12:18
Are we all allowed big weepy rambling goodbye threads when we leave, just to big up our ego for when people inevitably cry "don't go!"? If you want to make a point, surely it is better to make the point, rather than flouncing off in a preteen girly huff and write in your warseer diary about how hard life is?

Bye.

Cheeslord
19-10-2012, 12:26
I think if someone is quitting after 15 years they are entitled to one post. Its obvious what it is about from the title so you don't have to read it or post in it if you don't like quitting threads.

Anyway, I blame the rise of the internet for increase in use of "power lists". In the olden days you weren't aware within a couple of days of a codex coming out what all the "worthless" units were or what "power builds" could be made. Really I think the best response would be for GW to put more effort into playtesting and balancing its rules, since what worked before the intarnet generation is now subjected to much greater scrutiny and pressure...

Mark.

Spider-pope
19-10-2012, 12:35
The only advice to the OP i'd give is don't sell everything. Keep at least one army, because chances are at some point in the future you'll feel the desire to play again and it can be unpleasant having to start from scratch, all the while remembering the collection you used to have.



I think if someone is quitting after 15 years they are entitled to one post. Its obvious what it is about from the title so you don't have to read it or post in it if you don't like quitting threads.

Anyway, I blame the rise of the internet for increase in use of "power lists". In the olden days you weren't aware within a couple of days of a codex coming out what all the "worthless" units were or what "power builds" could be made. Really I think the best response would be for GW to put more effort into playtesting and balancing its rules, since what worked before the intarnet generation is now subjected to much greater scrutiny and pressure...

Mark.

I disagree. There was still the search for power builds and loopholes just as quickly. The only difference was it was the regulars at your FLGS doing it, rather than a forum. At best you can say that the various builds may have differed slightly between gaming groups, but they were still ever present and have been since at least when i started back in 2nd edition.

What has changed is that where before you'd have a guy or two complaining about this that or the other is under/over powered in a store, now they can all get together on the internet and drown out everyone else with the complaints.

Fagerlund
19-10-2012, 12:45
Try to get into a campaign perhaps? Especially if you're playing missions that force the players to limit themselves you get rid of the Power Gaming-aspect. Also, just having a different goal of the game changes things up considerably.

trigger
19-10-2012, 13:07
I hear what your saying

Sounds like your gaming group is not what you want , have your true changing who you play ?

There are lots of clubs out there that don't do "power gaming"
I cut down on all my armies to just 1 before sixth.
Cost is an issue but in reality there is nothing people can do about it.

Have a look roun for new people to play then decide on the future

Beppo1234
19-10-2012, 13:11
to the OP, good luck sir. I'm a 20 year vet myself, and don't play much anymore, but I love the hobby aspect. As another posted, maybe it's time to liquidate a majority of your collection, keeping your favourite stuff. I've taken breaks here and there, thinking I wouldn't start painting again, but it always comes back. I think I'm saying, step away for a while, but don't quit. If you've been in for 20 years, then chances are, you'll be back.

Denny
19-10-2012, 13:15
1) Prohibitive cost.

Not a problem if you've already accumulated big collections. You can still play and add a little here and there.


2) Power creep has gotten silly.

It's no different than it has always been. There have always been units/list/armies that have been OP. The main issue is . . .


3) Powergaming culture.

. . . there used to be a more 'gentlemens' approach to wargaming. I remember devising a combination of magical items in Warhammer that made my Chaos Lord impossible to hit in close combat (this lord also rode a Steed of Slaanesh for a 24 inch charge and was immune to all Leadership test). I used it in one game because I just couldn't help myself, realised it was no fun for anyone, and discarded it. If I'd have kept using it I suspect by friends would have requested I didn't use it . . . or started using equally horrible things to counter it.

I suspect these days such a combination would be a standard build and my friends would be dismissed as crybabies.


4) New releases invalidate old lists.

Not usually. What they do instead is make them non-optimal. That's only a problem if you care about being optimal, which comes back to power gaming culture.

My point is the game hasn't really changed (back when I started special characters were not opponents permission). What's different is who you're playing it with. All you need to have fun again is play who want the same things out of the game as you do.

I had a recent 2 vs 2 game where I teamed up with a Necron player I'd never met. Nice guy, but I never want to play with him again. His list is super powergaming. I felt bad for the people we are playing against (one was fluffy Deathwing). I don't do powergaming lists. I don't want to paint 3 Ravagers and nine Venoms; I like having a bit of everything. My current goal is to paint one of every unit in the codex.

Neither my nor the powergamers approach is 'right', but the two together are not fun for anyone.

Find new people who play the game like you. Problem sovled.

IcedCrow
19-10-2012, 13:16
I've been playing also around 15 years and powergaming was as alive and rampant then as it is today. It has always been the defacto standard of warhammer in my experience. If you want to raise your level of play to non powergaming then you need to find a group of like-minded individuals and join a campaign group. If one does not exist, you need to create one. I took a four year vacation from games-workshop because I got burned out on powergaming and tournament games all day every day (and when we weren't playing in tournaments we were playing games to get ready for tournaments).

It comes down to your group.

The other things you have cited, those too have been complained about fifteen years ago. People were complaining about the price back in 1998. Power creep I think was birthed by GW lol

So in short, what you are citing is valid, but is not because of the new generation of gamers. If we go back in time to 1997 you will see people complaining about the high cost, people complaining about how their codex was invalidated, and powergamers touting that their 14 starcannon eldar list is the pinnacle of genius while groin stomping the marine players with it.

Azazel
19-10-2012, 13:35
I started playing 15 years ago too, but thats not to say I actually played for the whole 15 years.

Take a break from the hobby.

Easy E
19-10-2012, 13:37
I will try to motivate you.

As everyone has said, the first step is identifying what you want out of a game, and find people at your local venue that feel the same way. If you can't find any players out there, make them yourself. If you introduce new people to the game, you can "teach/mentor" them into a different style of play.

Once you find those people, here are some other things you can try:

1. Play other editions of 40K that you like.
2. House rule the crap out of it with your like minded players help.
3. Play campaigns, themed games, and true narrative games where balance may or may not be important.
4. Try Cityfight/Cities of Death, Apoc and PlanetStrike type games.
5. Stop playing at the FLGS and start migrating games to your new groups residents or alternate locations away from the type of gaming you do NOT want to participate in.

I have found that once you stop playing pick-up games and Tournament "practice" games; the game is much more interesting and refreshing. The background begins to breath more, and the purpose of a game because much more compelling.

However, that is just my suggestions for revitalizing your game. There is not right/wrong way to play and I totally understnd why you would want to bustop. It happened to me too. The steps I outlined above are some of the things that keep me playing 40K (as well as othe rstuff).

Konovalev
19-10-2012, 13:51
Are we all allowed big weepy rambling goodbye threads when we leave, just to big up our ego for when people inevitably cry "don't go!"? If you want to make a point, surely it is better to make the point, rather than flouncing off in a preteen girly huff and write in your warseer diary about how hard life is?

Bye.

Well put. Warseer is not anyone's blog.

Antipathy
19-10-2012, 14:05
Edit - irrellevant

nedius
19-10-2012, 16:54
MY reply to the issues raised, rather than the 'I'm leaving' side of things.

1)Cost

I agree with this, but only 'just'. A new X-Box 360 game is 42. A new GW kit, such as the Heldrake, is 45. Now, one game does not a game collection make, nor does one miniature an army make. However, where I agree is that one ARMY is. Talking the recent WD Chaos army (doing this totally from memory), it would cost roughly 300ish, I think. That includes Codex, Dark Vengence, the demon engines and so on. X-boxes are still around 220, so + game you're at 260+, so not too far behind. And I think this is how GW justify their prices. People will pay that for a computer game system, why not a wargame system?

Thing is, you don't HAVE to play 1500pt games. My fav point value is 400-500. 40k is an excellent skirmish game at that level, and there are very few armies who can abuse over-powered stuff with such little points-wriggle-room. Stick to that point level, and army costs plumet. And you can spend more hobby time converting each individual into something cool and unique.

So whilst I sympathise, I think GW are probably now riding the cusp of what they can charge and maintain a widespread customer base. Anymore and they will become a true 'luxuary' product and their sales will begin to dwindle.

2 & 4)power creep vs new releases

On this I'm all with you. They use codexes to very aggressively to push new miniatures. Everybody has carnifexes? Oh, best nerf them so people will go out and buy the new big beastie rather than keep using their old fexes. Ph, and having to remodel everyone of my warriors as they are now completely illegally armed... joy... Oh, and to buy a whole host of new gaunts as my spinegaunts are now sub-par to termagants. So using new codexes to create new 'must haves' at the expense of other units bugs me. I just wish they'd keep the old units about as useful, but make new stuff that is differently useful.

3)power gaming

I get this, but do think it is a who you play against thing. I hear plenty of people in my GW just chatting about how they can combine options to make the most powerful lists. But... there are others like me who are happy to play cool stuff, themed lists that are nothing but for fun. So this is a bit 'I see what you mean, but...'

Minor) Fluff and characters

Fluff has certainly gone more PG, less grim-dark are more 'SPEZZ MAREENZ FOR THE WINZ'. But then, every army as always been portrayed as the most dangerous thing in the galaxy. The Chaos Gods will dance on the ashes of all life... The tyranids will consume all biomass leaving the galaxy bear... Necrons will exterminate all life with their arcane technology... It's like the Simpsons where Mr Burns is described as having the 'Three Stooges' syndrome... all the 'death to the universe' forces can't kill the universe as they can't agree who goes through the door first... But at least you used to feel that what you were reading was well thought out. There were hidden joles (often very flimisly hidden, admittedly), dark undertones and so on. Now those are lessened. Not gone, and hopefully GW will realise that kids don't nesscecerily like what adults think they like, and that they often like things because it's a bit adult, which could see it return.


So over all, I see your ideas. I rarely game anymore, and far more focus on the hobby stuff. My recent significant investments have been 'Advanced Space Crusade, Tyranid Attack and Hero Quest. All of which I'm creating an 'updated' miniature set for. Still enjoying the GW hobby, just making it work for me.

nedius
19-10-2012, 16:55
MY reply to the issues raised, rather than the 'I'm leaving' side of things.

1)Cost

I agree with this, but only 'just'. A new X-Box 360 game is 42. A new GW kit, such as the Heldrake, is 45. Now, one game does not a game collection make, nor does one miniature an army make. However, where I agree is that one ARMY is. Talking the recent WD Chaos army (doing this totally from memory), it would cost roughly 300ish, I think. That includes Codex, Dark Vengence, the demon engines and so on. X-boxes are still around 220, so + game you're at 260+, so not too far behind. And I think this is how GW justify their prices. People will pay that for a computer game system, why not a wargame system?

Thing is, you don't HAVE to play 1500pt games. My fav point value is 400-500. 40k is an excellent skirmish game at that level, and there are very few armies who can abuse over-powered stuff with such little points-wriggle-room. Stick to that point level, and army costs plumet. And you can spend more hobby time converting each individual into something cool and unique.

So whilst I sympathise, I think GW are probably now riding the cusp of what they can charge and maintain a widespread customer base. Anymore and they will become a true 'luxuary' product and their sales will begin to dwindle.

2 & 4)power creep vs new releases

On this I'm all with you. They use codexes to very aggressively to push new miniatures. Everybody has carnifexes? Oh, best nerf them so people will go out and buy the new big beastie rather than keep using their old fexes. Ph, and having to remodel everyone of my warriors as they are now completely illegally armed... joy... Oh, and to buy a whole host of new gaunts as my spinegaunts are now sub-par to termagants. So using new codexes to create new 'must haves' at the expense of other units bugs me. I just wish they'd keep the old units about as useful, but make new stuff that is differently useful.

3)power gaming

I get this, but do think it is a who you play against thing. I hear plenty of people in my GW just chatting about how they can combine options to make the most powerful lists. But... there are others like me who are happy to play cool stuff, themed lists that are nothing but for fun. So this is a bit 'I see what you mean, but...'

Minor) Fluff and characters

Fluff has certainly gone more PG, less grim-dark are more 'SPEZZ MAREENZ FOR THE WINZ'. But then, every army as always been portrayed as the most dangerous thing in the galaxy. The Chaos Gods will dance on the ashes of all life... The tyranids will consume all biomass leaving the galaxy bear... Necrons will exterminate all life with their arcane technology... It's like the Simpsons where Mr Burns is described as having the 'Three Stooges' syndrome... all the 'death to the universe' forces can't kill the universe as they can't agree who goes through the door first... But at least you used to feel that what you were reading was well thought out. There were hidden joles (often very flimisly hidden, admittedly), dark undertones and so on. Now those are lessened. Not gone, and hopefully GW will realise that kids don't nesscecerily like what adults think they like, and that they often like things because it's a bit adult, which could see it return.


So over all, I see your ideas. I rarely game anymore, and far more focus on the hobby stuff. My recent significant investments have been 'Advanced Space Crusade, Tyranid Attack and Hero Quest. All of which I'm creating an 'updated' miniature set for. Still enjoying the GW hobby, just making it work for me.

Deadnight
19-10-2012, 18:17
1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly. I'm not talking about the cost of bog standard units, because a box of ork boyz or marines is fairly well priced. But for the less played armies like eldar, tau and daemons, playing such armies feels like a curse. You're bottlenecked into standard units because specialist units are more expensive by a massive margin - aspect warriors, battlesuits, meganobz and other fun shiny stuff all costs an arm and a leg, and with finecast (I was so excited about finecast when it was first announced, but now realise it's just cut off the possibility of reasonably priced plastic releases...) and depressing new release waves I'm failing to see much hope on the horizon for these costs to go down... Which means everyone is using the same damn stuff, though that's also because...



personally, i wouldnt mind spending the money if the game mechanics were gripping. For me, its not the cost. its the fact that you pay 300-400 for an army that will be invalidated next edition as GW decides to push some other aspect, and in order to remain competitive, you need to buy in.



2) Power creep has gotten silly. Against standard lists, newer codexes don't seem that bad. But against themed lists from older codexes, lists that used to be viable if not optimal, they will utterly destroy them. I thought 6th ed would usher in an era of crazy themed lists, but everyone is using similar stuff or just chucking in a couple of extra models. It's depressing to see, and is probably because of...
.

Rubbish. power creep has always been terrible. remember heavy3 starcannon spam against little timmy's marines? remember blood angels back in third? remember the siren prince and the old chaos iron warriors lists? bud, power creep has always been there, as has imbalance. with 5th, GW tried to push out the power curve. as opposed to pulling everything back to 0, they pushed everything up to 10. which isnt a bad thing- Privateer Press have proved that when everything is broken, nothing is. I cannot accept this point of yours as anything other than a view through rose tinted glasses.



3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint.


definate rose tints. i got into this game 10 years ago, and even then people were whining and moaning about the new breed of powergamers that were ruining what used to be a fun game 10 (now 20) years ago. funny thing was, exactly the same thing was said back then too. you could "deck" your old lists as well back in the day. blood angels. the highly abuseable alaitoc disruption table. heavy3 starcannon eldar. ulthwe 60man seer council. more recently, chaos and the old iron warriors army.

the game has always been imbalanced and prone to shenanigans. its not a new phenomenon. maybe because of your new fangled jadedness, you're seeing clearly what you didnt before, as it was all masked by bright eyed enthusiasm, and passion. but it was there, in the same quantities then too. so dont go thinking the game is somehow worse now with the youngins. you're just older. you need different things from your games.



4) New releases invalidate old lists. I LIKE my highly themed eldar list. I USED to like my tyranids. When you're like me and play around with little used units and silly lists, a new release that invalidates 300 of models is a big deal. What if warp spiders become utterly useless in the next rulebook, or meganobz from my orks? That's a LOT of money for me. I already have 4 useless carnifexes from the old nid book, and I was one of the lucky ones... nidzilla lists were very common back then!


how else does GW make money? you buy a 300 army. that'll do you forever. you dont "need" new stuff. But in order to make you "need" stuff, GW move the goalposts around to push what was previously not worth taking. cynical for sure, but they need to do it. if you dont like it, then either suck it up and carry on, or move on altogether.



I have a couple of other minor issues, like the game having become special character centric - I much preferred it when you had your own commander with his own background, and special characters were opponents permission only - and the terrible cheesiness that seems to have infiltrated recent writing (OK, 40k has always been cheesy, but GOOD cheesy. The recent stuff is just... ugh. It feels less 'rule of cool' and more 'rule of make this sound awesome so everyone will use it') but those are minor complaints in the face of the big four.
.

to be fair though, while you can write whole novels about *your* SM commander, it means jack to me my friend. he's just a "space marine commander" to your opponent. and to be fair, eveyone is going to build him to the optimum build, so even though he's "yours", he's no different to anyone elses. plus if he constantly dies, i lose any sense of identity in him. Far better to leave them faceless and nameless. since i've played WM, i've found an appreciation for special characters. i find the "idea" of my own commander is better than the reality.

no argument on the recent fluff - since codex: grey knights, its been nothing short of woeful.



So, to sum up, these days wacky themed lists aren't viable (which are the only lists I like. What's the point of having an awesome themed universe if no one will explore it in depth?), they're expensive, no one seems to play to have fun any more, and the entire hobby just seems depressing. I'm on the verge of selling all my models save the ones I want to paint, and finding something else to devote my energy towards... which is a shame, because I have so many fond memories. None of them are from recent months, though... sure, I could still keep using these lists. But I'd keep getting crushed, game after game, by generic powergamey lists... I'm not one of those people who can collect just for the sake of collecting, I NEED the gaming side too, but I play for fun, which constant slaughterfests are not.

Someone, motivate me.

try other games. if 40k isnt doing it for you, then take a break. either play new games altogether, or step out of gaming for a while and go travelling, or pick up a "sport" or something. then come back.

techsoldaten
19-10-2012, 19:55
Good letter, expresses things I have felt for a long time. A few thoughts before you go:


I've been a 40k player since I was 7. I've mucked about with nearly every army out there, have hundreds of models and thousands of hours painting and gaming. And I've come to the point where... well, I just don't enjoy it any more. And here's why.


I walked away from the hobby in my 20s and came back to it in my late 30s. Every time I look over my minis, I miss the 2nd edition ones that are not there any more. Keep your favorites, old habits die hard.



1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly.

Yes. I buy more than half my stuff over eBay, which cuts down on the costs dramatically. I am willing to soak a model in Simple Green for a night to save 50%. Don't know if this influences your decision at all, but models are much more affordable when you are willing to buy from someone besides GW.



2) Power creep has gotten silly. Against standard lists, newer codexes don't seem that bad. But against themed lists from older codexes, lists that used to be viable if not optimal, they will utterly destroy them. I thought 6th ed would usher in an era of crazy themed lists, but everyone is using similar stuff or just chucking in a couple of extra models. It's depressing to see, and is probably because of...


Yes, it's absurd to think that you have to wait 4 - 5 years to get a new Codex when the one you have it's very good. I think this is what Allies are for, to shake things up with interesting combos that offset the imbalances that naturally occur with new releases.



3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint.


Yes, I hate going to play a game against some kid who clearly downloaded a list off the Internet and doesn't always know what his units actually do. There's something different about having widely available uberlists than putting one together yourself and learning. That said, it brings experience into the game, and there is some satisfaction in tearing apart an uberlist because your opponent has no understanding of strategy or tactics.



4) New releases invalidate old lists. I LIKE my highly themed eldar list. I USED to like my tyranids. When you're like me and play around with little used units and silly lists, a new release that invalidates 300 of models is a big deal. What if warp spiders become utterly useless in the next rulebook, or meganobz from my orks? That's a LOT of money for me. I already have 4 useless carnifexes from the old nid book, and I was one of the lucky ones... nidzilla lists were very common back then!


Yes, it is horrible having to deal with the changes that come between editions. This sounds a lot like point 2, but I hate the sense that my CSMs are now a biker dependent army and my twin DPs are no longer the unstoppable terrors they once were. There's less of sense of narrative to the lists I make these days, and more of a sense I am optimizing my units so I can have enjoyable games. I am not a WAAC player, nor will I ever be, but I hate walking into situations where I know I will lose by round 2.



So, to sum up, these days wacky themed lists aren't viable (which are the only lists I like. What's the point of having an awesome themed universe if no one will explore it in depth?), they're expensive, no one seems to play to have fun any more, and the entire hobby just seems depressing. I'm on the verge of selling all my models save the ones I want to paint, and finding something else to devote my energy towards... which is a shame, because I have so many fond memories. None of them are from recent months, though... sure, I could still keep using these lists. But I'd keep getting crushed, game after game, by generic powergamey lists... I'm not one of those people who can collect just for the sake of collecting, I NEED the gaming side too, but I play for fun, which constant slaughterfests are not.

Someone, motivate me.

I see your points and how they all interrelate. GW is a company, miniatures and Codexes are market-driven products meant to get you to buy more. It's important to take steps to separate yourself from the seedier aspects of the culture and keep some perspective on where you get your enjoyment. If that means taking a break, take one.

logan054
19-10-2012, 20:25
3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint.

Power gaming has always been about, I do think it has gotten worse, partly because of the internet, and partly because how the rules are now written. Because the rules seem to take less and less inspiration from the fluffy with what use to be wacky rules, people take the game more seriously than they use to, of course you don't even need to learn to play now, you can simply log onto a forum and a bunch of people will write you a powerlist which may well crush everyone locally, as such they do the same because they guy is getting cocky, yeah...

Honestly I don't really play 40k anymore, the flying rules are terrible, and with certain armies they are just so abuseable! themed lists can certainly be viable, you just have to accept that if you play a guy with 9 vendettes your going to lose, or, you just say, no thanks mate.

ljal
19-10-2012, 20:28
The issue is not the game. The problem is group of players. Thats it.
If you have old friends playing 40k - themed army in campaign or Apocalypse is not a problem.
If you dont have any, try to find them :)
Dont waste your nice memories it is good to cherish them :)
Just find right people.
Cocncerning costs ... if you have fun cost is quite irrelevant (usually) :)

Maidel
19-10-2012, 20:29
I started playing 15 years ago too, but thats not to say I actually played for the whole 15 years.

Take a break from the hobby.

I can only echo this sentiment.

I'm 32, I've been involved loosely with the hobby since 1987 through my dad.

I've quit this hobby probably 10 times. I pick up playing computer games, watching films or god forbid, working overtime.

I hadn't done anything related to gw since last November, I get various email new letters so I'm not entirely out of touch. I got a message saying forge world were releasing the Horus Hersey book, and, well, I've spent more in the last few weeks than I care o remember.

Let it go for a bit, if you only have 1 hobby in life, well, it gets boring.

stompzilla
19-10-2012, 20:32
I've been a 40k player since I was 7. I've mucked about with nearly every army out there, have hundreds of models and thousands of hours painting and gaming. And I've come to the point where... well, I just don't enjoy it any more. And here's why.

1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly. I'm not talking about the cost of bog standard units, because a box of ork boyz or marines is fairly well priced. But for the less played armies like eldar, tau and daemons, playing such armies feels like a curse. You're bottlenecked into standard units because specialist units are more expensive by a massive margin - aspect warriors, battlesuits, meganobz and other fun shiny stuff all costs an arm and a leg, and with finecast (I was so excited about finecast when it was first announced, but now realise it's just cut off the possibility of reasonably priced plastic releases...) and depressing new release waves I'm failing to see much hope on the horizon for these costs to go down... Which means everyone is using the same damn stuff, though that's also because...

2) Power creep has gotten silly. Against standard lists, newer codexes don't seem that bad. But against themed lists from older codexes, lists that used to be viable if not optimal, they will utterly destroy them. I thought 6th ed would usher in an era of crazy themed lists, but everyone is using similar stuff or just chucking in a couple of extra models. It's depressing to see, and is probably because of...

3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint.

4) New releases invalidate old lists. I LIKE my highly themed eldar list. I USED to like my tyranids. When you're like me and play around with little used units and silly lists, a new release that invalidates 300 of models is a big deal. What if warp spiders become utterly useless in the next rulebook, or meganobz from my orks? That's a LOT of money for me. I already have 4 useless carnifexes from the old nid book, and I was one of the lucky ones... nidzilla lists were very common back then!

I have a couple of other minor issues, like the game having become special character centric - I much preferred it when you had your own commander with his own background, and special characters were opponents permission only - and the terrible cheesiness that seems to have infiltrated recent writing (OK, 40k has always been cheesy, but GOOD cheesy. The recent stuff is just... ugh. It feels less 'rule of cool' and more 'rule of make this sound awesome so everyone will use it') but those are minor complaints in the face of the big four.

So, to sum up, these days wacky themed lists aren't viable (which are the only lists I like. What's the point of having an awesome themed universe if no one will explore it in depth?), they're expensive, no one seems to play to have fun any more, and the entire hobby just seems depressing. I'm on the verge of selling all my models save the ones I want to paint, and finding something else to devote my energy towards... which is a shame, because I have so many fond memories. None of them are from recent months, though... sure, I could still keep using these lists. But I'd keep getting crushed, game after game, by generic powergamey lists... I'm not one of those people who can collect just for the sake of collecting, I NEED the gaming side too, but I play for fun, which constant slaughterfests are not.

Someone, motivate me.

Two words for you. Epic Armageddon. i made the leap after becoming increasingly disatisfied with 40k due to similar reasons to yours and haven't looked back since. Get some gaming buddies together and take it for a whirl (You can even proxy counters, coins etc for units just to give the game a whirl before dropping any money and the rules are free on GW's site). I haven't played a game of 40K since 4th ed and don't really miss it at all.

Aldavaer
19-10-2012, 20:39
As someone who's been playing various wargames for 35 years and 40K on and off from the start, I'd agree with Azazel and Maidel. Box your stuff up, store it in the attic and take a break.
Like any game, its the players who make it fun not the system. Over the years I've had fun battles in systems that were almost unplayable they were so broken; on the hand I've had games in brilliant systems that a WAAC player has made unbearable.

Battleworthy Arts
19-10-2012, 21:19
Find cooler people to play with.

Its not the game's fault, its your local meta. Either find a way to show them the light, or find new people.

Any game can be a blast with the right opponents.

Damocles8
19-10-2012, 21:25
I've been a 40k player since I was 7. I've mucked about with nearly every army out there, have hundreds of models and thousands of hours painting and gaming. And I've come to the point where... well, I just don't enjoy it any more. And here's why.

1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly. I'm not talking about the cost of bog standard units, because a box of ork boyz or marines is fairly well priced. But for the less played armies like eldar, tau and daemons, playing such armies feels like a curse. You're bottlenecked into standard units because specialist units are more expensive by a massive margin - aspect warriors, battlesuits, meganobz and other fun shiny stuff all costs an arm and a leg, and with finecast (I was so excited about finecast when it was first announced, but now realise it's just cut off the possibility of reasonably priced plastic releases...) and depressing new release waves I'm failing to see much hope on the horizon for these costs to go down... Which means everyone is using the same damn stuff, though that's also because...

2) Power creep has gotten silly. Against standard lists, newer codexes don't seem that bad. But against themed lists from older codexes, lists that used to be viable if not optimal, they will utterly destroy them. I thought 6th ed would usher in an era of crazy themed lists, but everyone is using similar stuff or just chucking in a couple of extra models. It's depressing to see, and is probably because of...

3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint.

4) New releases invalidate old lists. I LIKE my highly themed eldar list. I USED to like my tyranids. When you're like me and play around with little used units and silly lists, a new release that invalidates 300 of models is a big deal. What if warp spiders become utterly useless in the next rulebook, or meganobz from my orks? That's a LOT of money for me. I already have 4 useless carnifexes from the old nid book, and I was one of the lucky ones... nidzilla lists were very common back then!

I have a couple of other minor issues, like the game having become special character centric - I much preferred it when you had your own commander with his own background, and special characters were opponents permission only - and the terrible cheesiness that seems to have infiltrated recent writing (OK, 40k has always been cheesy, but GOOD cheesy. The recent stuff is just... ugh. It feels less 'rule of cool' and more 'rule of make this sound awesome so everyone will use it') but those are minor complaints in the face of the big four.

So, to sum up, these days wacky themed lists aren't viable (which are the only lists I like. What's the point of having an awesome themed universe if no one will explore it in depth?), they're expensive, no one seems to play to have fun any more, and the entire hobby just seems depressing. I'm on the verge of selling all my models save the ones I want to paint, and finding something else to devote my energy towards... which is a shame, because I have so many fond memories. None of them are from recent months, though... sure, I could still keep using these lists. But I'd keep getting crushed, game after game, by generic powergamey lists... I'm not one of those people who can collect just for the sake of collecting, I NEED the gaming side too, but I play for fun, which constant slaughterfests are not.

Someone, motivate me.

How is Nidzilla invalidated now? I've been in for quite a while, I've seen some things get worse (IG Stormtroopers) but I still use them, because I like the models or the background for the models. I'd almost recommend taking a break from GW for a while, try some of the newer games (Dystopian Wars Legions releases in a few weeks)

yabbadabba
19-10-2012, 21:38
Find some good friends.
Follow the advice in my sig.
Enjoy your toy soldiers, because they are yours.

Reflex
19-10-2012, 21:54
@ Old1eye: Sounds like you need a break. Its the same as playing a computer game to long, you need to get off the pot and go for a walk.

I said to myself I was never going to play 40k again when I gave up (now I'm back because 6th seems to have improved things here). just take a break, go to another system (something that is fun and relaxing, not a tournament centric system like PP or to some extent FoW). Deep down every gamer who plays this game for more then a few years loves it and will always have a soft spot for it.

Bladelord
19-10-2012, 22:10
The costs cannot be countered, but do try out WHFB. The power creep has stalled there and the game itself is a lot of fun. As for highly themed armies turning bad, it is always a risk for theme armies. But then again one rarely collects themes for reasons of gameplay (although a themed army might fare well), but rather for the sake of good miniatures, conversions and background. Still, it is a bit strange that rules developers let some units sink into tactical worthlessness.

As for fun I cannot give much advice. I've rarely played games which I didn't enjoy and where the opponent was nice to play against. Perhaps the playerbase is different in the UK. If this is an issue, try to play against veterans or friends which you know will play for the fun of it, and play yourself in this spirit (i.e. such as making tactically silly sacrifices if it enhances the joy of the game).

Maidel
19-10-2012, 22:40
The costs cannot be countered, but do try out WHFB. .

To follow that with the posters own wording:


1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly. I'm not talking about the cost of bog standard units, because a box of ork boyz or marines is fairly well priced. But for the less played armies like eldar, tau and daemons, playing such armies feels like a curse. You're bottlenecked into standard units because specialist units are more expensive by a massive margin - aspect warriors, battlesuits, meganobz and other fun shiny stuff all costs an arm and a leg, and with finecast (I was so excited about finecast when it was first announced, but now realise it's just cut off the possibility of reasonably priced plastic releases...) and depressing new release waves I'm failing to see much hope on the horizon for these costs to go down... Which means everyone is using the same damn stuff, though that's also because...

The problem is that the game is incredibly cheap after the initial expenditure. You buy an army (expensive up front cost) and you make it, paint it and then its yours to keep. In 3-5 years a new book will come out (20+) and it will have a few new rules and some shiny new toys in it. So, every 3-5 years you need to spend around 30-100 to update your existing army.

Thats it.

If you choose to buy an entirely new army, well, thats not exactly GWs fault is it, its a choice. I dont really ever understand the cost arguement for anyone what has a job (And anyone that doesnt have a job cant afford other hobbies either!) Most of the time the cost issue is from people trying to buy new armies every month it seems. I dont know about anyone else, but I work full time and frankly, even when I try really hard, I cant paint more than 2 models a night anyway! So, dont spend 200 now. Spend 20 this month and 20 next month and then the cost is spread and you dont have the 'oh **** I just spent 400'

Clarkson
19-10-2012, 23:42
Not usually. What they do instead is make them non-optimal. That's only a problem if you care about being optimal, which comes back to power gaming culture.

My point is the game hasn't really changed (back when I started special characters were not opponents permission). What's different is who you're playing it with. All you need to have fun again is play who want the same things out of the game as you do.

I had a recent 2 vs 2 game where I teamed up with a Necron player I'd never met. Nice guy, but I never want to play with him again. His list is super powergaming. I felt bad for the people we are playing against (one was fluffy Deathwing). I don't do powergaming lists. I don't want to paint 3 Ravagers and nine Venoms; I like having a bit of everything. My current goal is to paint one of every unit in the codex.

Neither my nor the powergamers approach is 'right', but the two together are not fun for anyone.

Find new people who play the game like you. Problem sovled.

I had a necron list that used full squads of pariahs... in all 3 elite slots... as I used them as a newly made bunch and had flayed ones...

also before had squats, and more recently SoB..

I wonder what happened with those armies...

well ill be ****ed.. they were pretty much discontinued

Kevlar
19-10-2012, 23:46
To be fair 22 isn't such a bad age to stop playing with toy army men.

Maidel
19-10-2012, 23:48
I had a necron list that used full squads of pariahs... in all 3 elite slots... as I used them as a newly made bunch and had flayed ones...

also before had squats, and more recently SoB..

I wonder what happened with those armies...

well ill be ****ed.. they were pretty much discontinued

I'll give you squats, they were discontinued 15+ years ago. Necrons and sob are very much still current armies.

althathir
20-10-2012, 00:10
Old1eye, I can see where your coming from to a degree but I think part of the problem your facing is bad luck. Your two armies are in fairly rough shape, Nids aren't as awful as some people suggest but they're the worst 5th edition codex, which in sixth is even worse cause every other codex to a degree can cover a weakness through allies (and there is no excuse for GW not to give them something for not having allies). Eldar have some tricks but its a 4th edition codex that feels like it lost 90% percent of its identity (when guard armies our faster there is a problem), people can still get a lot out of it but the silly stuff just isn't going work anymore. Powergaming is an issue but your two forces are at a disadvanage if they don't play a certain way to begin with.

So my suggestion is either take a break (eldar should be updated within in year hopefully, and nids have been updated every edition so far), change your goals in pickup games*, see if a friend has a spare force you can run for a bit, or look at something to ally with your eldar that compliments the silly stuff (though warp spiders are good in this edition). I wouldn't suggest trying to sell your stuff either way, more so if it took you 15 years to reach this point.

*This is a really big point, if your gonna make silly lists then by all means come up with silly goals or adjust the goals to be more realistic moral victories exist in 40k

PostinDirty
20-10-2012, 00:20
I dont really ever understand the cost arguement for anyone what has a job
the thing is, this guy isn't just thinking of cost relative to other hobbies, or if he can afford it or not. He even explained that he's perfectly capable of affording it. But its an expensive and daunting hobby, if you're not gleaning any joy from it. There's no point convincing him its a cheap hobby, if 400 bucks worth of models is just going to sit in the cupboard unused.

whatever
20-10-2012, 00:55
Here is a little advice put your paints and every toy soldier in boxes and pack it at your parents home and walk away. Your 22 (15+7 see how I did that) go out have some fun, drink too much and give it a year. You may well come back to it in a shorter time period but some times its best just to walk away for a while. I think many long time gamers get like that and many come back it just gets like that especially as editions change and it becomes hard work.

I think I had a 5 year 21 to 26/27 just life plus i didn't like the rules at that point and couldn't find opponents I wanted to play and most of all I just got all uptight about the game in general. However I liked the painting so did a few bits in them 5 years now I have met some great people and love my game on a Sunday but I guess that is because I love the chat and winning and loosing just isn't so much of thing for me but i am so much more relaxed now.

The other thing is if you get bored buy a new system i play a few now loving a bit of malifaux and infinaty just for a change but put everything a way for a bit see how you feel when you've had sometime off but put your figs and rulebooks away so your not looking at them that clear space may make you feel less angry at it all.

hope this helps and hope your back soon.

Chem-Dog
20-10-2012, 02:07
0ld1eye, congratulations on becoming a hoary old vet. All that's happened is that your perception has shifted which is all part of ageing, so I'm told. Notice how I said ageing, not maturing.....;)

Think of this as a seven year itch, I think everyone who sticks with the hobby any length of time has one. Priorities change, values alter and perhaps, as you creep on through your twenties your'e finding the social aspect of the hobby a poor substitute for other things you could be doing with your time.

Don't fight it, if you're feeling disenchanted with the game and the hobby in general, go do other stuff, it'll be here when you feel like coming back to it. And when you come back to it, don't do your gaming in stores, locate some hoary old veterans like yourself and play for fun with guys who play for fun.

Clarkson
20-10-2012, 05:57
I'll give you squats, they were discontinued 15+ years ago. Necrons and sob are very much still current armies.

The point i was making was Pariahs were dropped from the 'dex (there were something like 5-6pm in squads of 15 i think) and flayed ones were 8 for 2.. and flayed ones became rubbish in new dex.. so 300-400 of my army became useless..

and considering how hard it is to find the rules for SoB, as i started chaos as a side project because i got fed up of pinning metal models, so i missed the WD rules that made the dex obselete (i dont buy or pay attention to WD to have noticed the release)

and I laugh at SoB being a "current army"

Disposable Hero
20-10-2012, 06:07
@ OP - I know what you mean, I have been experiencing it myself.

I packed up my 40K models, and got into Dust Warfare and a WW2 game. We are also dabbling in WarmaHordes.
The thing I like about the WW2 games is that you don't get to play with an army consisting of Adolf Hitler with 7 attacks, AP2, re-rolls and what not, and accompanied by a squad of near-invicible SS-killers or anything.

Best of luck, and remember there are a lot of cool games out there.

Lord Squidar
20-10-2012, 07:21
not sure how daemons are considered expensive cost wise, the battleforce gives you over a 1000 points in core, which no other army does.

Kakapo42
20-10-2012, 10:06
Might I suggest you try one or more of the Specialist Games?

Most of them are considerably cheaper than 40k. While the miniatures themselves are, sometimes inconveniently, just as expensive, you often need less of them. Necromunda and Inquisitor for example are both Specialist Games that centre around skirmishes between small groups of models, and you can play a perfectly enjoyable game of Battlefleet Gothic with only a handful of miniatures (in fact the introductory scenario has just two ships per side). What's even better is that the rules are all available online as free PDFs, so you don't have to invest in expensive rulebooks.

Because GW now largely ignores them, they do not get officially updated, and as a result power creep is virtually non-existent. There are no new models released and no new rules to make them 'must haves'. Many also have much less emphasis on 'competitiveness', with (continuing with the examples above) Inquisitor and Necromunda both having storytelling as central to them. Battlefleet Gothic, while not as much about telling a story, is still remarkably balanced (compared to 40k at least), with most factions (aside from one or two exceptions) being perfectly able to handle themselves against all-comers. There is also much less of a 'power-gamer' culture among them.

Now, a common complaint with Specialist Games I often see is a lack of players. This simply means you will have to make some. Invest in two Necromunda hive gangs or two Battlefleet Gothic fleets, that way you have an OpForce for introductory games. Then conveniently place your Specialist Games miniatures where they will be noticed, and eventually someone will see them and go 'my goodness, what are those?' (or something to that extent). Then you can introduce them, give them the OpFor group and you will have a new person to play Specialist Games against. And if they decide it's not for them, well try try again.

Aside from that, find new people, or take a holiday from the hobby, you can't go wrong either way. I wouldn't suggest you sell your collections though, as in the event you want to get back into the hobby again it could be very expensive to start from scratch.

Maidel
20-10-2012, 10:16
the thing is, this guy isn't just thinking of cost relative to other hobbies, or if he can afford it or not. He even explained that he's perfectly capable of affording it. But its an expensive and daunting hobby, if you're not gleaning any joy from it. There's no point convincing him its a cheap hobby, if 400 bucks worth of models is just going to sit in the cupboard unused.

I never said it was a cheap hobby, I just said that its only expensive if you make it expensive. If you want to field a full forge world drop infantry army, it's going to cost a fortune that would make most people wince, but there are plenty of ways of mitigating or spreading out the costs.


The point i was making was Pariahs were dropped from the 'dex (there were something like 5-6pm in squads of 15 i think) and flayed ones were 8 for 2.. and flayed ones became rubbish in new dex.. so 300-400 of my army became useless..

and considering how hard it is to find the rules for SoB, as i started chaos as a side project because i got fed up of pinning metal models, so i missed the WD rules that made the dex obselete (i dont buy or pay attention to WD to have noticed the release)

and I laugh at SoB being a "current army"

1) the NEcron army still exists. You just happened to have a very very specific army that partly stopped being usable in this edition. I would be surprised if the same thing happened to more than 5% of Necron players. In fact, every Necron army I saw between about 1998 and 2005 was formed by 100's of warriors because of the phase out rules.

2) any current sob player who was remotely paying attention was going to buy those white dwarf issues, but yes, it's difficult for new sob players to get those rules 'legally'. But a quick search on eBay finds every issue of wd for the last 10 years, so it's not that hard.

3) sob are a currently supported army. They have models sold through gw, they have an FAQ and a current 'codex'. If you are implying that they aren't current because they are out of date, well that's a separate issue entirely.

murgel2006
20-10-2012, 10:32
Hm, I have been in and out of the hobby for over 20 years now. And I have to agree to one thing; the rise of power gaming list (tournament lists) has ruined much of the fun.
However I surely agree to other statement in this threat as well.
- Look for like-minded players.
- play apocalypse rules. (even 1000 points game can be played that way.)
- play campaigns when ever possible
And most important do say "sorry" and walk away whenever someone wants to play you with a obvious power-gaming list. DO NOT be the buffer for other peoples inferiority complex or other insecurities.

PostinDirty
20-10-2012, 23:37
I never said it was a cheap hobby, I just said that its only expensive if you make it expensive. If you want to field a full forge world drop infantry army, it's going to cost a fortune that would make most people wince, but there are plenty of ways of mitigating or spreading out the costs.
And what I'm saying is that relative cost doesn't matter in this case. Whether you spend ten bucks or a thousand, its going to feel like a waste if you're not actually going to engage in the hobby. I spent 300 NZ dollars on a 1850pt IG army with all the trimmings earlier this year. It was a fantastic deal. And a waste of my money. I'm not going to use the army, so I've essentially bought a 300 dollar paperweight.

Maidel
20-10-2012, 23:46
And what I'm saying is that relative cost doesn't matter in this case. Whether you spend ten bucks or a thousand, its going to feel like a waste if you're not actually going to engage in the hobby. I spent 300 NZ dollars on a 1850pt IG army with all the trimmings earlier this year. It was a fantastic deal. And a waste of my money. I'm not going to use the army, so I've essentially bought a 300 dollar paperweight.

It depends on where you draw your interrest in the hobby. Ive probably spent over the last 5 years in excess of 500-2000 (its really hard to keep track...)

I havent played a single game in all that time (work, family etc)

However I do enjoy the 'hobby' side as apposed to the 'gaming' side. So if you are buying an army solely to stick on a table top, then yes, if you dont get to use it, then its a waste. If the point of buying the army was to enjoy making it, well, it wasnt a waste.

PostinDirty
21-10-2012, 00:10
Yep. And therefore cost of the hobby is very subjective. And why comparing the relative expense of the hobby probably won't work in convincing Old1eye (sp?) that it is worth it.

Maidel
21-10-2012, 00:17
Yep. And therefore cost of the hobby is very subjective. And why comparing the relative expense of the hobby probably won't work in convincing Old1eye (sp?) that it is worth it.

I havent actually compared the expense with anything else at all, I've just stated that the costs is pretty small after the inital expenditure so long as you choose not to start new armies.

I think it should be thought of in conjunction with my first post. Take a break. The hobby wont go anywhere, all the stuff you currently have wont immediately become invalidated and useless (unlike most other hobbies, woops, just started a comparison damnit!).

Ive got armies/ models that date back to 1987 that are just as good now as they were then, in fact, a lot of the older metal models had more character (im looking at you wood elves, skaven and dwarves!).

So, my advice would be stick the stuff that the OP owns in a box, shove it under the bed (or loft or anywhere else thats dry) and leave it there. When something that sparks your interrest happens (new codex, new model release, new version of the game) you are all set to go with some minor changes.

PostinDirty
21-10-2012, 00:29
sorry, I actually meant to delete the word compare, but I skimmed over it in re-reading my post - my point about cost still stands however

anyways; my solution is to just purge anything that feels like dead weight. Sell it off, gift it, run raffles, whatever. I personally reckon its a total waste having armies and minis packed away, gathering dust, that you might, possibly, maybe, could use at some point in the future.
As you said Maidel, it doesn't have to cost much to pick up the game, so if things change you can always start again.

End of the day its all just "stuff"

Maidel
21-10-2012, 00:35
anyways; my solution is to just purge anything that feels like dead weight. Sell it off, gift it, run raffles, whatever. I personally reckon its a total waste having armies and minis packed away, gathering dust, that you might, possibly, maybe, could use at some point in the future.

Oh I couldnt disagree more. If you have stuff that at any point 'meant' something to you, dont what ever you do get rid of it. I have models that ive kept solely for nostagia reasons, and then decades (litterally) later I have found a use for them. Ive got models in my current space wolf army that I bought in 1988, I needed a few extra models and with a good paint stipping and a slightly raised base, they fitted in perfectly.

Back in the early 00's I sold quite a few nicely painted models (in fact probably the best ive ever done) because I needed some money. Looking back I could have managed without the 200 or so that I made, but I wish I had more than the pictures still.

But again, this all depends on what the hobby means to you. If the models are simply gaming pieces, then sell away. If the models (like mine are to me) actually have some form of non-tangible value, then dont sell them, you will only regret it later.

Lord Damocles
21-10-2012, 00:52
I had a necron list that used full squads of pariahs... in all 3 elite slots...
Pariahs were a 0-1 choice anyway, so you bought 20 more than you could actually use :eyebrows:

(Not that Lychguard aren't a suspiciously similar substitute)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
21-10-2012, 17:08
I know your last words in the OP were "motivate me," and so I will:

Change is something that we all face in life. It's hard to notice it day by day, but after 15 years in the hobby, not only has the hobby changed, but so has the world and especially yourself. If you started at 7 you're now at least 2 Chapters ahead in the book that is your life. Once in a while, I find myself wishing I was in 7th grade again, just getting started in WFB back in 1997. I wish I didn't have to worry about my job or my studies or my plans for the future. Back when I started Warhammer, being "grown up" seemed so far away. Sometimes, I wish things could just go back to the way they were. In my experience, wishing this too much can turn you into a cynical grox-hole. In your original post, you listed 4.5 very definite reasons why you were quitting. They sound like good reasons to me.

GW is that abusive ex you see on Lifetime TV. You feel really guilty for leaving him/her, but you feel existentially compelled to nonetheless. (s)he'll always be waiting for when (and if) you ever come back. You'll think it's great but (s)he's just too expensive, has no respect for you, alienates all your friends, and makes you feel like ****. And (s)he is cheating on you anyway with all those younger boys who are more willing to throw money and attention at him/her.

damiengore
21-10-2012, 18:03
Bye, now Sell me your stuff cheap!

damiengore
21-10-2012, 18:08
Lol no seriously play the edition you like and the codex you like, I know lots of young uns like yourself (I've been playing since 89 )that just play 2nd edition or play using a certain codex. Really there's nothing stopping you from making house rules to allow fun to reign supreme!

yabbadabba
21-10-2012, 18:10
Inspired by the ridiculous "GW is your abusive ex" style post above, I wanted to address a few issues here:

1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly. I'm not talking about the cost of bog standard units, because a box of ork boyz or marines is fairly well priced. But for the less played armies like eldar, tau and daemons, playing such armies feels like a curse. You're bottlenecked into standard units because specialist units are more expensive by a massive margin - aspect warriors, battlesuits, meganobz and other fun shiny stuff all costs an arm and a leg, and with finecast (I was so excited about finecast when it was first announced, but now realise it's just cut off the possibility of reasonably priced plastic releases...) and depressing new release waves I'm failing to see much hope on the horizon for these costs to go down... Which means everyone is using the same damn stuff, though that's also because... What you are complaining about here is how price has exposed something else far more worrying - being a slave to the marketing. When I started playing GW games everyone had armies with all sorts of stuff in. Through some very clever marketing by GW and the almost total surrender by many tournaments and FLGSs playing with non-GW minis is somehow seen as wrong. Rubbish. Just like most things in life, the branded product is more expensive than a replacement and better suiting, but not essential. Hunt around, convert, use Ebay. GW have made a rod for their back, not yours.

2) Power creep has gotten silly. Against standard lists, newer codexes don't seem that bad. But against themed lists from older codexes, lists that used to be viable if not optimal, they will utterly destroy them. I thought 6th ed would usher in an era of crazy themed lists, but everyone is using similar stuff or just chucking in a couple of extra models. It's depressing to see, and is probably because of... WFB is more balanced now than ever, despite a few ironing issues. I haven't played 40K yet but jury is still out. But this again exposes yet another marketing trick - must have the new rules. It's something many of us have to break the programming on but I played an amazing game of 2Ed the other day - a wonderful trip down memory lane. In addition what was a standard skill for most wargaming groups seems to have been usurped by excuses and the curse of officialdom - house ruling. Almost all the old wargamers I know still house rule, still change rules and army lists to suit their needs and many barely look at the scenarios in any wargames book anymore. It's your wargame when you have bought it, not GWs. Don't let them or anyone else tell you how you should play. Nor should you let the vocal minority that is tournament players and store players dampen your spirits - everyone is entitled to play these games how they want, the only right way is the fun way. Again, the vast majority of new wargames rules start of with one or two people in a club or gaming group playing lots and attracting other players. Try it.

3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint. There have always been powergamers, and I remember going to my first club some 20 years ago and being warned "don't play with them unless you like playing tournaments only - they don't play in the spirit of the club!" Just as tournaments have picked up because people were willing to find recruits to play, sometimes you will have to do the same to get people to understand how cool playing "just for fun" really is.

4) New releases invalidate old lists. I LIKE my highly themed eldar list. I USED to like my tyranids. When you're like me and play around with little used units and silly lists, a new release that invalidates 300 of models is a big deal. What if warp spiders become utterly useless in the next rulebook, or meganobz from my orks? That's a LOT of money for me. I already have 4 useless carnifexes from the old nid book, and I was one of the lucky ones... nidzilla lists were very common back then! See above about rules. Also just use counts as. In the end GW have to do these things because it's what makes their turnover, but it's their worry to get you to buy in. I have had a Catachan army since the first army list was released, and I splashed out when the specialist codex was released. I'd rather play with them in that style than give them tanks just because the rules say I can. GW want me to spend more money on my Catachans so they think tanks will work - no they won't. Stick to your guns fella!

I have a couple of other minor issues, like the game having become special character centric - I much preferred it when you had your own commander with his own background, and special characters were opponents permission only - and the terrible cheesiness that seems to have infiltrated recent writing (OK, 40k has always been cheesy, but GOOD cheesy. The recent stuff is just... ugh. It feels less 'rule of cool' and more 'rule of make this sound awesome so everyone will use it') but those are minor complaints in the face of the big four. Cheese has always been a factor as has the over bearing nature of GWs writing - we just think it's worse now but that is because GWs focus has definitely shifted to a different market - 11-18 year olds. In the "old days" we could make just as beardy ordinary characters as well, so things are no better off in that regard. What has changed is the amount of moaning and the lack of creativity (mostly dampened by that "officialdom" disease) that goes into really thinking about an army's character. In part I believe because there are far more kids in the game now; also because the game has lost a lot of it's RPG roots; finally because GW need to keep you forking over your army and buying new bits.
I have been through everything you are quoting here mate, and I decided to be proactive. I play games with a small group all who have a similar outlook to me, and I have started building up my armies again - but at my pace and at the price I want to pay. It took me a little while, but I think I am having more fun now than the first big game of Epic I ever played (Space Marine release for us crustys ;)). All the best Old Man.

shinankoku
21-10-2012, 18:14
I feel your pain. I'm taking a break from 40k and fantasy cause I just don't find it fun anymore. GW used to have a credo, a guiding principle to their games: "fast furious and fun". I think they've replaced that with: "how many rules can we make you look up?"

I'll probably return one day, but not today.

My advise is this: Blood Bowl. It *is* fast furious and fun. It is very balanced. You can play a game in an evening and still get to sleep in time for your 6am job. It is blissfully inexpensive to make a team. And talk about theme! My teams are: The Eodras Eagles, the Pittsburgh Steel-Holes, and the Green Plague Packrats.

IcedCrow
21-10-2012, 18:41
Good post Yabba. "+1"

Ulrig
21-10-2012, 19:52
5. Stop playing at the FLGS and start migrating games to your new groups residents or alternate locations away from the type of gaming you do NOT want to participate in.

This is what I have done, along with about a half dozen other people in my area. It really does make a difference in the game when you change who you primarily play with.

the gribbly
21-10-2012, 20:22
Its already been stated here but find people that like to game the way you do, it makes all the difference. Powergaming is a trap man its like the arms race and nobody wins from nuclear holocaust... except maybe nurgle.

Razhem
21-10-2012, 23:09
Look into other games, you'd be amazed at how refreshing it feels to play games that actually try to be balanced or that have rules with some depth or that allow a wide amount of themes. They are there, you just have to leave the whole "GW is the only one" mindframe a lot of people have.

Spell_of_Destruction
22-10-2012, 00:35
I'm not the first person to say this but, is it really necessary to quit?

I have also been playing 40k since 1997. I haven't always been actively involved in the hobby during that time i.e. in a gaming group playing regularly. That didn't stop me picking up the odd codex or white dwarf to flick through.

If you're not 'feeling it' just now take a bit of a break from regular 40k gaming. Do a bit of painting. Try a different system. Try a different hobby. You can still keep an eye on 40k and come back to it when you rediscover your passion. A break can be a great way of freshening things up a bit. It's quite possible that familiarity has bred boredom.

Putty
22-10-2012, 02:50
1) Prohibitive cost. When I say this, bear in mind that money isn't really a big deal to me, and I'd quite happily spend 200 on a whim... but when it's no longer 200, but 400 for a new army, things are silly. I'm not talking about the cost of bog standard units, because a box of ork boyz or marines is fairly well priced. But for the less played armies like eldar, tau and daemons, playing such armies feels like a curse. You're bottlenecked into standard units because specialist units are more expensive by a massive margin - aspect warriors, battlesuits, meganobz and other fun shiny stuff all costs an arm and a leg, and with finecast (I was so excited about finecast when it was first announced, but now realise it's just cut off the possibility of reasonably priced plastic releases...) and depressing new release waves I'm failing to see much hope on the horizon for these costs to go down... Which means everyone is using the same damn stuff, though that's also because...

The current GW hobby benefits "veterans" more than "newbies" primarily because of the high starting cost. Although many communities encourage newbies to start small (start at 1000 points and slowly scale upwards) only a few people will start the hobby/game and stay with it for a long time because in addition of the steep starting cost, its a the amount of things to learn.

#1. Learn how to paint
#2. Lean how to put the models together
#3. Stretching your dollar with prudent purchases for the guys who aren't so well off.

Newbies who are devoted to the hobby will spend more time learning how to paint and put the models together. Sure they like the "game" itself but I have seen many newbies who are more concerned about the game than the hobby aspect because they are lazy and think they can get away with crappily painted models just to take part in tournaments.

What drives people to learn the hobby aspect of the "GW hobby" well? Well pride. Those who have put in effort to put together their army (armies) get more satisfaction out of the "game" regardless if they win or lose when they play the game.

As for Finecast, I make it a point NOT TO OWN any Finecast models. If I need something that is only available in Finecast, I'd rather scratchbuild/convert or buy Forgeworld.


2) Power creep has gotten silly. Against standard lists, newer codexes don't seem that bad. But against themed lists from older codexes, lists that used to be viable if not optimal, they will utterly destroy them. I thought 6th ed would usher in an era of crazy themed lists, but everyone is using similar stuff or just chucking in a couple of extra models. It's depressing to see, and is probably because of...

Nothing new. If you really have been in the GW hobby for as long as you say, you would know that new codices usually are flavor of the month and trump the older codices but not because they are "more powerful" but because people need time to learn how to beat them.


3) Powergaming culture. Playing for fun seems to be a thing of the past, and I know because I was there in the past. Perhaps I'm looking back through rose-tinted goggles, but back then people seemed to play the lists they WANTED to play. Perhaps a younger generation of gamers has taken over now, but these days I see nothing in my LGS but powergaming lists. I've seen it in a few other GWs locally, and I know it's a consistent complaint.

Its the whole "efficiency vs fluffy" argument all over again. Kicking a dead horse really.


4) New releases invalidate old lists. I LIKE my highly themed eldar list. I USED to like my tyranids. When you're like me and play around with little used units and silly lists, a new release that invalidates 300 of models is a big deal. What if warp spiders become utterly useless in the next rulebook, or meganobz from my orks? That's a LOT of money for me. I already have 4 useless carnifexes from the old nid book, and I was one of the lucky ones... nidzilla lists were very common back then!

I owned a 4th Ed Nidzilla army. 6 Carnifexes, 2 metal Hive Tyrants one Tyrant had the metal Tyrant Guards the other had Balrog Wings. Naturally I got mad with how they totally butchered the army with the 5th Ed codex and I sold the army to move on and rekindled my passion for the hobby with a custom Space Marine army that could play almost any SMEQ codex and now using them as Renegades with CSM add-ons.

The "GW Hobby" is as fun as how you make of it. Some prefer the hobby aspect more, some the gaming aspect more. Its about finding a balance between them both. You sound more like a gamer more than a hobbyist and from my experience, the gamer burns out faster because "they have less things to focus on in the GW hobby" because it is the hobby aspect that takes up the most effort and time and not everybody wants to put in that kind of effort because " just playing the game" is "easier and takes less effort".

Gop
22-10-2012, 04:08
I've gamed GW (and others) on and off since Space Hulk. I'll echo a few points. Don't sell all your armies. Keep 1-2 and just take a break. Try different systems. Warmachine/Hordes is quite fun and you can get started for a reasonable cost.

murgel2006
23-10-2012, 09:38
There are also other companies with nice and fun games. That is very true.
i.e. I go for Battletech whenever I can. More real tactical approach and a very fun game.

Juggernaut101
23-10-2012, 10:12
I can really see where you are coming from and I feel for you!
That being said, I'd strongly advise against selling your whole collection. Keep your 2 largest armies (or the 2 with the most models you love) because you might want to get back into the game somewhere down the road and starting from scratch will be REALLY prohibitive cost wise.

Veterans have a far better chance of weathering GW's actions than newer players. From a certain army size onwards you really only "have to" add the odd model compared to new players who "must buy" stuff in order to play at all. See, there's your silver lining.:)

Invest in games with a small model count for some time; Infinity and Urban War come to mind, or just try something completely different from GW like WarmaHordes if you want bigger sized games. There are a lot of other games out there, some with really beautiful miniatures.

Or you know, just play beer & pretzel games with like-minded buddies:shifty:

Juggernaut

x-esiv-4c
23-10-2012, 12:34
Good for you! A lot of people are quitting the GW franchise and moving on. I would certainly suggest you give other game systems a go (as many of them are far cheaper and better then GW products).

Dog of War
23-10-2012, 12:46
Are we all allowed big weepy rambling goodbye threads when we leave, just to big up our ego for when people inevitably cry "don't go!"? If you want to make a point, surely it is better to make the point, rather than flouncing off in a preteen girly huff and write in your warseer diary about how hard life is?

Bye.
Kind of a dick thing to say,don't you think?

AndrewGPaul
23-10-2012, 13:02
After 15 years, cost is irrelevant, surely. You admit in the OP that you have a massive collection, so the costof new stuff doesn't really matter, unless you really really want a Reaver Titan or whatnot. If you don't like the game, then by all means don't play it. There's nothign more ridiculous than people who play 40k all the while complaining about how much they hate it. If you've got a group of friends you enjoy gaming with, try something new. There's no shortage of other sci-fi platoon- or company-level games you could use your existing models with, so at worst you only need to fork out the cost of a rulebook. Plenty of them are even free. Try Tomorrow's War, Future War Commander or Stargrunt II (the latter being free).

If you don't have a group of gaming friends, then you may be out of luck there. :) there might be other reasonably local groups who play games other than 40k, though.

I must admit to some confusion, though; when you say "the hobby", do you mean 40k or wargaming?

Ebon
23-10-2012, 13:35
I hear you on special characters, they're getting to the point of being virtually required now.

Antipathy
23-10-2012, 13:40
Kind of a dick thing to say,don't you think?

*Thinks*.

Nope.

AndrewGPaul
23-10-2012, 14:39
I hear you on special characters, they're getting to the point of being virtually required now.

Are they? I don't see many where I play.

Mind you, it would be nice if people converted up an appropriate miniature with name and paintjob, rather than using a bare-metal Vulkan He'stan in their Ultramarines army. :)

jeffzcubfan
23-10-2012, 22:44
I understand your frustration and see it in other areas of hobbies and sports as well.

I recommend not selling your stuff unless you 1) are 100% certain you won't be playing that army ever again, and/or 2) are in financial need to do so. I've been playing since the days of Rogue Trader and my miniatures date back to 1987. I've had other armies, but have over time sold off all, but space marines and chaos. I've been playing a Khorne based army since the Realms of Chaos and still get people that are thrilled to see the old mini's among my chosen escorts in my HQ, plus some joking looks at my old sm terminators (yes... they just look tiny compared to the newer versions).

My point being, just like others here have said, take a break if you feel the need. I recommend keeping a low profile and talk to other gamers in your area, or at nearby tournaments. You might be surprised and how many might share your feelings and a group of you might form that will remove alot of the issues you have with the current climate (power gaming, for example). I definitely agree that if you find such a group, a campaign style game play will remove alot of the other issues you have with units being unusable.

Good luck,

Jeff

REDEATH
23-10-2012, 23:00
I have been at it for 25 years myself and I have to admit I am close to finally calling it quits I had to eBay ALOT of my vintage citadel miniatures just to fund up the purchases of the past two years and I think the last price hike if it had come one year earlier I would have quit but thankfully I am fully stocked on dark Eldar stuff and in great shape with my chaos space marine stuff that I won't have to break the bank to keep those up....but starting any new armies is out of the question now. GW is bleeding the players dry. War machine / hordes game play is picking up in my gaming area hard core 40k ans web players are now exploring these games and switching over GW is slitting their own throats they think they have the Apple complex and think everyone will buy their stuff no matter how expensive they make it. But they don't have a Steve jobs running the show to actually make the product as great as they believe they have the new chaos spacemarine codex is proof that they are in their own world and have no idea what thegamersexpect.

obleeke
24-10-2012, 00:14
I stay with the rose-tinted goggles theory. I have been playing GW games for about 18 years and I remember blaming the rulesets and yelling at the dice since Space Crusade.
I guess the itch just stops at some point.

Thornz
24-10-2012, 00:54
SNIP...

Someone, motivate me.I have been playing for 20+ Years ... and they only time I play 40k (once a week) is in a Narative campaign setting, and I have a painting night once a week with mates. I have spent 10 years writing up narrative map based campaigns for my mates and I really enjoy them. I play all our games at peoples homes/not stores or clubs. My mates ALL play fun themed armies, and I encourage them to play more themed if they want. Once a month we have beerhammer (exactly what is sounds like) for the older gents, for kicks and giggles. This way I never suffer from burnout and still love the hobby.

Inquisitor Samos
24-10-2012, 04:51
To be fair 22 isn't such a bad age to stop playing with toy army men.
HERETIC! Begone, apostate one! :p
I've been playing with toy army men for nearly forty years, and with GW's for twenty-five; I'm not planning on stopping any time soon! :D


@ Old1eye: I have to chime in with agreement on what many others have said here: I think you just need to find some players who'll be agreeable to try playing some campaign-style gaming or some "just-for-the-fun-of-it" games, and get clear of the power-gaming tourney-style players. Play any edition of rules you want; use any house rules anyone wants to try; forget force organization charts and field whatever you want; try to find the enjoyment in it again.

Failing that, just take a break for a while . . . but don't get rid of any of your collection! You'll still want 'em later! ;)

insectum7
24-10-2012, 05:15
I used to have a crapload of models too. Then I chose my favorites, painted and sold the rest, and bought a car.

If you want to let the hobby go for a bit, do it, you totally should. BUT! I would advise you not to get rid of everything either. Pick your faves, pack em up, and stow em away. This will do two things:

A: Make it easy for you to hop in for a game if you get the itch. In years when my time and interest has waned, it was still comforting and useful to know that I could hop to a store and make friends with my army.

B: You will be less likely to think about starting new armies and spending lots of money. In my case, I know that I can make a small purchase for my army, soothe the desire to paint and play, and then shelve it for a month or two while I do other things. Having a beloved collection around helps retain focus if you get the urge.

Breiss
24-10-2012, 05:41
I musy say ive been playing for over a decade and really everything you have listed has always been a factor in warhammer. The biggest change for me however is the price. This hobby has always been expensive, but its gotten rediculous lately. The economy has made our pockets thinner, and at the same time gw raises its prices across the board. This makes justifying dropping loads of hard earned cash on models that can be trashed by new rules/codexs and now insane power creep to spur gw sales very difficult. I remember buying my 3rd ed eldar dex for $20. The new chaos book is $55 after tax. Thats almost a triple in price. I now rely on ebay and conversions now more than ever to stay in the hobby.

PostinDirty
24-10-2012, 07:41
I often forget the obsessive-compulsive hoarding habits this hobby so easily facilitates. crikey

kurisawa
24-10-2012, 08:24
Contrary to semi-popular belief, everyone wasn't playing 'themed' lists back in the halycion days of Rhino rush, Starcannon spam, 3.5 chaos, invincible skimmers, or Nidzilla either.


If the people you're playing with aren't playing the way you want to play the game, that's not necessarily the game's fault.

This.

To the OP, I would respectfully suggest you can easily fix all your problems.

1. Don't buy new models. You've got a heap already, it seems, so sit back and use them forever while the poor newcomers to the hobby have to pay higher prices. The great thing about minis is they don't go bad and will last forever as long as you don't subject them to random acid attacks. But then some might go obsolete, so...

2. Stick with a different, older edition. Don't like the new one? It's not essential, you know. I, too, have got kinda fed up of renewing my rulebook and complete collection of codexes every few years. With several editions available to pick from, I can even mix-and-match rules as I like. But one can't do this on one's own, so...

3. Your gaming pals make all the difference now. Find those with the same mindset. It seems you have outgrown powergaming (we all do in the end). You are not alone! Find gamers that want to play hard, and play to win, but understand the need to shy away from the latest one-trick-pony-clone-army as easily found on the internet. Armies are as equally balanced as the players picking them care to make them. Themed lists are even possible. Ironically, by leveling the playing field between two armies in this way, more focus is put on the players' actual gaming skills; deployment, decision-making, *ahem* dice-rolling, etc, and less on the "skill" of just downloading a list from the 'net (which is why codex-creep is such a money-spinner for GW - the powergamers have to keep on buying!).


Good luck!


K.

alphastealer
24-10-2012, 22:50
I have also been playing 40k for 10 years now. I have tyranids, tau and marines.
I feel the same as the op, which is why i took a break and started warmachine.
Warmachine and hordes inherently fixes a lot of your issues, eg: 1) cost is lower to start and tourneys are at a lower model count. 2) no codex or power creep, as all armies get updated in the same year and no old models are ever made redundant. 3) all commanders are characters but are well balanced. The game overall is very well balanced with limitless combination possibilities and any faction is a good choice. 4) the system is not broken by powergamers as spamming is often not the best due to many models being good and effective.

Aluinn
25-10-2012, 05:33
can I have ur stuff?

(I deeply apologize, but I couldn't resist.)

Seriously, though, these threads are a disease infecting every forum about every game. This is like me making a thread about how much I think Space Marines are awesome: "Hey guys, I used to just kind of like Space Marines, but then for reasons X Y and Z I realized they are TOTALLY RADSAUCE." Okay ... wonderful, buddy, you might say, but I'm not sure why we needed a forum topic about it. Your personal discontentment is no more important to others than their emotional impressions of things, positive or negative, are to you, which is to say, they might be interesting if you personally know them, and have a place in casual personal chats, but they are out of place on a forum. You're not in my gaming group; I don't care if you quit (unless I can have ur stuff), so please stop posting about it.

Menthak
25-10-2012, 14:23
I share all of these problems, but to be honest, it makes me more loyal to the game in an odd way, Eg, in my GW store the players are either Marines (Not basic codex SM but Blood angels Space Wolves and Grey knights) or Tyranids, I play infantry Tau and I loose nearly every game because I refuse to spam Battlesuits. But when I win a game, it feels like a genuine struggle to win. The only thing I dislike is cost (Being a student with no job who gets 2.30 spare a week after bus and archery is taken into account) means that I have to plan in extreme advance.


But despite these reasons, I refuse to go for another company, simply because they're not the same, they don't have Space marines, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Necrons, Orks or Imperial Guard. They may have something similar, but it's not the same.