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Akaiyou
20-10-2012, 01:50
So I had a little altercation with the store manager today at the local GW. The issue being:

While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

Any how the store manager butts in at my comment and starts ranting about how I shouldn't be one to talk as I some times proxy models without arms and my armies all look like crap because I don't paint.

To which i obviously take offense, and I state that yes on RARE occasion i proxy a model armless because i'm in the process of fully intending to get the weapons i want for it and do not wish to glue an undesired weapon on. In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

The manager then rants on about how using a different model is perfectly legal and in the book as 'count as' rule, and that my unpainted models lacking one of their weapons or both are disrespectful to the hobby and considered 'unbuilt models' for the purpose of the game and thus NOT ALLOWABLE at the store.

At this point i'm like 'WTF?' so I point out that for starters the hobby does not include painting as a requirement, I personally suck at painting and have no interest in paintain my stuff myself and have taken into consideration paying someone for commission paint jobs but even if I chose to leave them unpainted he can't tell me I can't play them on those grounds because from the first day I was introduced to the hobby 7 years ago I asked if painting was required, and was told NO, had it been a yes I would've never got into it because i know painting is definetly not my thing. [Just becuase i'm a good runner doesn't mean i have any interest in playing soccer]

So ultimately he tells me this is true that painting is not required but my models still look like crap and it pisses him off, and from now on unless a model is fully built [weapons on] I am not allowed to play it on his tables at the store for this is from today forth a house rule of the shop. To which I point out that i'm NOT the only person that has used or uses models without weapons at the store, my opponent to whom I was giving free heavy destroyer weapons to help him play a less confusing army with less proxy being a prime example, so he can't come try and single me out.

Then he tells me to finish playing my last game at the store.

At that point I snapped and insisted that he give me a good reason why I should be banned from playing at the store because his basis that i should be banned because I don't paint or use models with a weapon I don't want glued on doesn't seem like a good reason if even valid at that.

I've been in the hobby 7 years and the only time i've seen someone get banned at the store has either been for stealing or fighting. So can managers ban someone for ridiculous reasons such as this one? Can they house rule a no armless models on the tables policy, and is it ok to only enforce said house rule on 1 person?

I stayed after the heated argument, and played 2 more games. 1 against another necron player who proxied the Overlords with warscythe + res.orb that come in the Command Barge set, as a regular Lord with Staff of Light and did NOT tell me, to my surprise on turn 2 when the lord shot at me...[which is exactly why i'm against proxying entire models]

And the game after that Dark Eldar player was shooting at me with vehicles that had NO WEAPONS glued on...4 vehicles none of them with a weapon glued on. And again I was not told if they had weapons or what they even were if they did. And not a word from the manager....

So I go out of my way to point out any 'armless' proxies that I field, and i deserve to be banned, yet everyone else does it without even declaring it and Manager turns a blind eye.

Are these grounds for me to file a complaint against the Manager? He's a new Manager (2 years on the job now at the store i've been going for the past 7 years). So i've never had this sort of problem until now, and if these are grounds to file a complaint does anyone know the contact info because this dude really pissed me off today.

PostinDirty
20-10-2012, 02:11
I don't know about NY, but in New Zealand managers (or any employee) have the right to prohibit entry to particular individuals from the premise of a business. At times it can be for quite petty personal reasons, but the manager is still able to exercise that right, and may be justified in just wishing to avoid uncomfortable public situations.

But you're usually allowed to contest and argue this. If there's someone higher up the food chain, then it makes sense as a consumer of the business to take it to them. Extreme case scenario: getting a lawyer involved, or a consumer rights lobby, and find out what your rights were. I've heard of a guy who got denied entry into a bar because he was in his biker leathers. He politely left, and returned with his lawyer and had the bar shut down for three days for discriminating against him.

On a tangent, I can't help but feel its useless giving you information because it feels like there's something missing from your story. The interaction between you and this manager doesn't seem to have come out of no where, and I'm curious as to why this guy decides to ban you now, and for this reason. It almost sounds like he was looking for an excuse. Either to ban you or to vent some rage, or whatever.

ehlijen
20-10-2012, 02:14
By the sounds of it, you didn't get banned because of proxying. The manager challenged you because he percieved your stance on proxying to be hypocritical; you use proxies yet complain if your opponents do while not even trying to paint your armies.

You then fought back, that's the big thing. And not by defending your rights, but by trying to pull everyone else down with you. As far as he's concenerd, you look like a hypocritical and lazy challenge to his authority that casts the hobby he's trying to sell in a bad light. He may have overreacted, but banning disruptive players from a store is well within his responsibility.

No, painting is not required to play the game. But if the store manager says it is required to be allowed to advertise the game on his gaming tables (that's what you're doing. You're not just playing, you're advertising!), he is within his rights to do so. You said yourself, he's not the manager that told you 7 years ago that you needed to paint.

Basically, you can complain. You might even get somewhere doing that, but honestly, complaining is what got you into this mess. I don't like your odds of it getting you back out. Even if GW decide that you are in the right, they will likely not be interested in having further friction by you playing at a store where the manager doesn't like you. And you'd need to be a pretty important customer for them to pick you over an employee.
Apologies and amends might get you further.

Yes, the manager is probably taking it more personal than he should, but so are you.

BaloOrk
20-10-2012, 02:28
I would complain more about unpainted/undercoated models than the odd proxy, but each to its own i guess

Voss
20-10-2012, 02:33
By the sounds of it, you didn't get banned because of proxying.
From the sounds of it, he didn't get banned at all (as he says he hung around for more games), so I'm not even sure what the issue is.

Akaiyou
20-10-2012, 02:34
How should I not take it personal?

And how did i try to take 'everyone else down with me' ? You mean by stating the fact that im not the only one that uses such proxies? I didn't go pointing fingers saying 'him, her, and him' I generalized a fact.

There's nothing missing from the story, it was a game between me and a friend and I made the comment to the friend about proxying entire models. How does that make me a hypocrite?

What would annoy YOU most a player with a dreadnought missing an arm that tells you 'hey that arm is plasma cannon' prior to the game starting. Or the player that proxies a rhino and half way through the game jumps over terrain, and obviously you'd be surprised by the move an ask for an explanation and be told 'oh this is my land speeder'

Call me a hypocrite if you want but I rather avoid the second situation whenever possible. While the first situation is tolerable in my opinion on the same grounds that count as rule let you field a flamer as a melta gun if you declare that before the game starts to your opponent.

There isn't a 'story' behind this to delve into. This has been our first 'issue' and he was ranting the whole time about my models some times lacking an arm while being 'work in progress' and of course not being painted because everyone there knows I don't paint nor have interest in painting. Prior to this incident there was no outstanding issue however the fact that he was indeed singling me out did feel very discriminatory and i am very upset about it

AngryAngel
20-10-2012, 02:36
Yeah I agree, sounds like more then just a clash over proxying. I agree though, rampant proxy can be a problem or confussing. It just means you need to ask more questions before and during a match. As for the managers stance, sounds like a personal thing between the two fo you. I'm sorry to hear of such, as said you might be better trying to talk and get to the real bottom of this issue and make friends. You can complain and raise a stink, but its a toss up to see what happens. Should you extend the olive branch and he still acts how he's acting, go for it and complain.

Simply check their number on the web site for customer service and that should lead you in the right path.

red_drake
20-10-2012, 02:36
I have absolutely no problem with proxies - as long as they tell me beforehand whats going on and don't mind me asking questions throughout the game

Akaiyou
20-10-2012, 02:44
From the sounds of it, he didn't get banned at all (as he says he hung around for more games), so I'm not even sure what the issue is.

I didn't get 'banned', as i stated i pressed him for the reason and he didn't give me one. It felt like straight discrimination to me on the basis that I don't paint in a hobby where im NOT required to paint, so we ended up ending the 'discussion' but i still feel very discriminated against and for any of you out there that may or may not be minorities like i am, you know well and good that when you get discriminated against you should do something about it, at least so it goes on record. Because if he'll try to ban me for such ridiculous reasons I assume it's only a matter of time before he looks for some other stupid reason to try again.

I've been at that store longer than he has and invested thousands of dollars in the hobby I feel rightfully insulted in my opinion. Consumers do have rights believe it or not so tell me i was wrong for disputing this newly on the spot made house rule that ONLY seems to target me and apply to me, does seem like something i should dispute. Everyone there at the time is my witness

Chem-Dog
20-10-2012, 02:44
On a purely technical basis, yes the manager could ban you from the store and if he did, yes you would certainly have cause to take it up a pay grade.

First I would suggest developing a thicker skin, it takes two people to have an argument and you have to be on a pretty fine trigger to rise to a fight over this kind of thing. If you'd laughed off his first comment none of the rest would have followed.

Then try making peace with the guy before going official, because once you've gone over the guy's head... well, some things people will remember. Complaining about having a stupid argument makes the both of you look stupid, officially.
If your attempts at a reconciliation fail and he holds to his threat then you can seriously consider an official complaint, but give the guy room to clamber down without loosing face and you'll more likely avoid any future tension and hostility that an official action would no doubt create. If he realises he's overstepped the mark, he might even thank you for not setting the RM on him.

Battleworthy Arts
20-10-2012, 03:00
SO many conflicting issues here.

1. You seem proud of your lack of interest in painting. I understand not everybody enjoys it or has the time, but being content to never have anything painted seems at odds with the entire point of the hobby. Without painted models, these are little more than REALLY EXPENSIVE plastic green army men, in a game that is only okay. The spectacle IS the point, whether you accept it or not.

2. Using proxies is between you and your opponent, but when agreements cant be reached, WYSIWYG is the only solution.

3. Perhaps we are hearing from a "problem" player here, but banning still seems extreme. If our local GW manager banned people for acting like the OP, we'd lose over half our people. Ive never seen anyone banned, but theres a couple people who are avoided, but also some that are taken under wing by the manager and/or us veterans in an attempt to help them contribute more to the overall community and hobby.

4. The manager seems to have given into his emotions, instead of being the voice of reason and a business manager. Sound like he might actually benefit from a talk from his RM, if he's still hot about it the next time the OP goes in.

Akaiyou
20-10-2012, 03:09
What pissed me off about his first comment wasnt' the fact that he stated the obvious that i proxy arms too it's that he said 'u proxy arms AND ur armies all look like crap' the tone and uncalled for army bashing rubbed me the wrong way.

I'm not above laughing off a joke, but there's a clear distinction between something said as a joke and something clearly said as an insult. The fact that the comment had nothing to do with painting yet he threw that in there and then ranted about it and repeatedly bashed my armies as looking like crap because they are unpainted came off to me as an attack rather than a joke.

One thing just had nothing to do with the other to be brought up into it. I can take a joke in stride i think men in general clown/joke around with each other but come on if you can't tell the difference between someone poking fun at you and someone intently insulting you without cause or reason, that's just not something i'm inclined to 'laugh off' seems like school 'bullied kid' mentality to attempt to laugh off insults and pretend that the kids are laughing with you and not at you.

Again the question I have is does anyone know the actual contact information? I do feel seriously descriminated against as i was singled out for something stupid that other players were doing and not called out for on the very same day of the incident. So regardless of wether i do file a report or not which I haven't decided I think i'd definetly like to have the contact info available

Rhamag
20-10-2012, 03:22
This would be where to start, if the perfectly reasonable solution of talking to the manager first is not to your satisfaction.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?section=community&pIndex=0&aId=4500001&start=1

Or contact Mark Wells, the CEO: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=39352308&ticker=GAW:LN

I'm of the opinion that messing around talking to various local US management will take too long. Go straight to Nottingham.

Akaiyou
20-10-2012, 03:27
Thank you and I have just contacted the manager via facebook to discuss today's incident as I feel i am the one owed an apology, and victim of discrimination. It's good to have options, discrimination of any kind should not be tolerated.

PostinDirty
20-10-2012, 03:34
you're discriminating against my discrimination, this shall not be tolerated!

Klajorne
20-10-2012, 04:44
You are full well within your rights to file a complaint. And if you feel as if you have been discriminated against then you definitely should bring it up to the proper management.

Now, having said that, and being a person that's butted heads with you in the past, are you positive that there would be no reason he why he might want to discourage you from the store? From your account, it wounds like he was "looking for an excuse".

You guys never argued before? Does he kick people out often? What is it about this situation that was different?

igwarlord
20-10-2012, 04:55
Actually sorry to let you know but in the US you can be banned from a store for any reason, at any time.

Did he do it in the right way, probably not.

If you complain to GW will they do something, probably.

Could he ban you, YUP!

Inquisitor Engel
20-10-2012, 05:03
Thank you and I have just contacted the manager via facebook to discuss today's incident as I feel i am the one owed an apology, and victim of discrimination. It's good to have options, discrimination of any kind should not be tolerated.

Emphasis mine.

Are you kidding me?

You think this is discrimination? In the State where the Stonewall riots happened? In the country where people are STILL to this DAY discriminated against, not given jobs, passed over for promotions and raises because of their race, gender or sexual orientation? Where young boys have been dragged behind trucks until they're dead because they looked different? You think getting tossed out of a store for having an argument with a store manger over a game of toy soldiers is discrimination?

Grow up.

GW store policy actually requires (and has for some time) 3 different colours on your models and that they be based. Most stores don't enforce this except perhaps as a selling tactic, but if you're proxying left and right, it's their rules to enforce. What happened to you was you were hypocritical, the manager called you out on it and gave you a ribbing and you decided to get into someone who could retaliate. Never argue with a manger over something that's not involving money. Ever. It's not a good idea. It's a great way to get banned from bars, sporting venues, restaurants, theatres and almost ANY private establishment.

Grow some skin, get some perspective and apologize. You both owe each other an apology. It's not a one way street and it sounds to me like he was well within his rights to eject you from the store, even if he did start it.

MajorWesJanson
20-10-2012, 05:14
Is the point to ask a question or to gain support for your opinion on events? Filing a complaint is just that, it is up to you, if you are dissatisfied. There are no "grounds" to file a complaint, just do it and it will be either found to be valid or meritless. This forum and its members generally aren't in any position to act as arbitrators over situations like these.

Either file a complaint or don't. The opinions of people on this forum aren't going to have any bearing on the result.

Some notes/observations though about the situation.
First, legally a store manager is within his right to ban individuals from their store for cause.
Second, having 7 years as a customer of a store gives absolutely no seniority over a store employee.
Third, things like the enforcement of counts-as and wsywig is not a responsibility for the store staff, unless it is a store run event, but confrontations between players and between players and staff is in their realm of responsibility to the safe and smooth operation of the store.

SideshowLucifer
20-10-2012, 05:25
In nearly every store I had been to in Texas, you are not allowed to play anything not fully painted, so it wouldn't surprise me here. Hell even the GW stores here require fully painted models to played. It's one reason people play at other LGS's.
You can be banned for anything honestly, and even if you did complain, it would likely only make it a hostile place to game anyways.

ehlijen
20-10-2012, 05:34
How should I not take it personal?


By accepting that he was trying to point out to you what you were missing, and which by the sounds of it has been annoying him, rather than seeing it as an insult and discrimination. By remembering that he is running a store, not a gaming club, and it's his job to make sure the hobby is 100% represented in the best light possible and that if GW sells paints, that includes suggesting with any means possible that armies should be painted.

Basically, he was trying to point out that you were throwing rocks in a glasshouse, but you decided to throw them even harder in response.




And how did i try to take 'everyone else down with me' ? You mean by stating the fact that im not the only one that uses such proxies? I didn't go pointing fingers saying 'him, her, and him' I generalized a fact.

The way you described it sounded differently, my apologies.


There's nothing missing from the story, it was a game between me and a friend and I made the comment to the friend about proxying entire models. How does that make me a hypocrite?

Because you are annoyed that people proxy but don't accept that people are annoyed in return by you not bothering to paint your models. Painting and Wysiwyg are both parts of the hobby that some consider very important and others don't. Add in that you also proxy and the manager will see you as complaining about the standards of others that you, in his opinion, don't match up to. Is he absolutely right? Not really. Does he get a say on what happens in his store and thus on his gaming tables? Yes.



What would annoy YOU most a player with a dreadnought missing an arm that tells you 'hey that arm is plasma cannon' prior to the game starting. Or the player that proxies a rhino and half way through the game jumps over terrain, and obviously you'd be surprised by the move an ask for an explanation and be told 'oh this is my land speeder'

I'd get annoyed by both, but I accept that other people might not by either and try my best not to complain. Especially when proxying or using unpainted models myself.


Call me a hypocrite if you want but I rather avoid the second situation whenever possible. While the first situation is tolerable in my opinion on the same grounds that count as rule let you field a flamer as a melta gun if you declare that before the game starts to your opponent.

The hypocrite part is with you not painting and complaining that others don't use the right models. You ask others to accept your absolute preference for wysiwyg while ignoring any desire they might have to face a painted army. They don't have a right to make you paint, but you also don't have one to say they must not proxy.


There isn't a 'story' behind this to delve into. This has been our first 'issue' and he was ranting the whole time about my models some times lacking an arm while being 'work in progress' and of course not being painted because everyone there knows I don't paint nor have interest in painting. Prior to this incident there was no outstanding issue however the fact that he was indeed singling me out did feel very discriminatory and i am very upset about it

Is anyone else's army in that store also unpainted with no prospect of that changing? If so, yes, it would be discrimination. If not, you're not being discriminated against, you're just told to conform with what that manager sees as the store's 'dress code' for armies. He could have done it more tactfully, yes.

If you're the only one in the store with the consistently unpainted models, then he has a point when he says you shouldn't complain about proxying. As far as he's concerned, your models are not complete either and therefore all proxies.

You are not required to paint, no. But GW is also not required to let you play games in the store. And a manager that's been there for 2 years is not required to stick to the word of a manager from 7 years ago.

Again, you were not admonished for proxying. You were admonished for complaing about those who, in your manager's opinion, put more work and effort into the hobby than you do.

IrishDelinquent
20-10-2012, 05:52
While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

You said that your frustration was caused by the confusion the proxy caused, but you stated this was a situation you'd already faced. If I've played the same opponent recently, I normally don't explain my models repeatedly. If they have questions, I'm happy to answer them, but normally that's why I have a list prepared. Your friend had previously used the Nemesor as the Stormlord, so you were aware of the proxy previously, and perhaps he hasn't been able to get the Stormlord model for some reason (out of stock, likes Nemesor better, can't afford it, or perhaps he wants to ensure that the Stormlord is right for him). If it's really that big a deal, it does also help to not need to proxy your own models.



Any how the store manager butts in at my comment and starts ranting about how I shouldn't be one to talk as I some times proxy models without arms and my armies all look like crap because I don't paint.

To which i obviously take offense, and I state that yes on RARE occasion i proxy a model armless because i'm in the process of fully intending to get the weapons i want for it and do not wish to glue an undesired weapon on. In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

Please understand that I mean no offense when I say this, but you need to try and see this from the manager's point of view. A customer is demanding/lecturing a friend/customer on what they deem to be "appropriate hobby requirements". And if you have proxied models in the past, you understand that sometimes hobbyists choose to proxy a model they don't have/aren't finished assembling yet. Also, as you have stated, you don't paint your models (I am in the same boat, although it's mostly due to laziness and having too many models to paint). However, if you aren't painting your army, then most of the time the manager may hold you WYSIWYG qualifications to a bit of a higher standard.

This is the big thing that my manager likes to stress; that your army is at least showing improvement each time. This is one thing my store has tried to stress for years. It sounds like you only played a few games without a psycannon on the model. However, because you aren't painting your army (which again I don't have anything against) it does leave you more time to focus on assembling your army....which kinda means you don't really have a reason for having unarmed models. It sucks when the same happens to me. My manager is kinda like a personal trainer at the gym; he gets on my ass any time I'm not doing much of anything at the store. Perhaps your manager was trying to convey something similar? Admittedly the tact might not have been there, but his heart seems to be focused on encouraging hobby growth.


The manager then rants on about how using a different model is perfectly legal and in the book as 'count as' rule, and that my unpainted models lacking one of their weapons or both are disrespectful to the hobby and considered 'unbuilt models' for the purpose of the game and thus NOT ALLOWABLE at the store.

At this point i'm like 'WTF?' so I point out that for starters the hobby does not include painting as a requirement, I personally suck at painting and have no interest in paintain my stuff myself and have taken into consideration paying someone for commission paint jobs but even if I chose to leave them unpainted he can't tell me I can't play them on those grounds because from the first day I was introduced to the hobby 7 years ago I asked if painting was required, and was told NO, had it been a yes I would've never got into it because i know painting is definetly not my thing. [Just becuase i'm a good runner doesn't mean i have any interest in playing soccer]

Ummm that's the whole freaking point of a proxy. Hell, he even used an appropriate model for the proxy, unlike someone who uses a coke can for a Carnifex. The manager is also pointing out how you are being a bit hypocritical, as your army (it could be argued) is incomplete.

Also, just because a painting requirement wasn't part of your local store when you started into the hobby, doesn't mean that it will automatically stay that way forever. I could try, by this logic, to argue that assault marines should only cost me $26 since that was the price when I started in the hobby 6 years ago. In fact, it seems like your manager is starting to implement a painting requirement in response to the increasing lack of this aspect to the hobby. This is something that is becoming more and more common, since many long term gamers complain about the lack of painted armies these days.


So ultimately he tells me this is true that painting is not required but my models still look like crap and it pisses him off, and from now on unless a model is fully built [weapons on] I am not allowed to play it on his tables at the store for this is from today forth a house rule of the shop. To which I point out that i'm NOT the only person that has used or uses models without weapons at the store, my opponent to whom I was giving free heavy destroyer weapons to help him play a less confusing army with less proxy being a prime example, so he can't come try and single me out.

Well, from a marketing standpoint an unpainted army does look bad for the store. Potential customers come in, they see lovely boxes full of dreams and fun, and then see grey plastic all over the table. For parents, it basically sends the signal that their kids (who they probably think are lazier than people like you and I) wouldn't paint their models either. Also, it seems like there may have been some miscommunication between you two. From my experience, it sounds like the manager was implying that the new policy regarding painting/assembling may be a new rule overall rather than singling you out.


I stayed after the heated argument, and played 2 more games. 1 against another necron player who proxied the Overlords with warscythe + res.orb that come in the Command Barge set, as a regular Lord with Staff of Light and did NOT tell me, to my surprise on turn 2 when the lord shot at me...[which is exactly why i'm against proxying entire models]

And the game after that Dark Eldar player was shooting at me with vehicles that had NO WEAPONS glued on...4 vehicles none of them with a weapon glued on. And again I was not told if they had weapons or what they even were if they did. And not a word from the manager....

So I go out of my way to point out any 'armless' proxies that I field, and i deserve to be banned, yet everyone else does it without even declaring it and Manager turns a blind eye.

So in other words, you were being petty when people did the same things as you? First, the Overlord thing just seems like nit-picking, as there isn't a new staff-of-light model to use. Second, did you mention to the manager that these other gamers were guilty of the same thing he had finished chewing you out over? Honestly, I would try and play things a little cooler around the store from now on. It sounds like you have a bit of a sense of superiority regarding not proxying/having assembled models. The manager was showing how you are not above these aspects of the hobby, and how the lack of a painted army is equally frustrating.

kieranhoare
20-10-2012, 05:55
i've only known of one person who has been banned, he broke some models, then he punched someone, i think he punched the manager, i only have heard, didnt witness, but the assisstant manager at the time would not let him into the store oneday i was there, and the manager was not, haha

Hendarion
20-10-2012, 06:06
Akaiyou, as rude as he may have been, but:
1) Ever heard of "don't throw stones while sitting in a glass house"?
2) The managers have any right in the world to ban you for whatever reason. Being snippy or ranting about minor issues are just two.

The Orange
20-10-2012, 06:14
At my local GW (when I did play in stores, which was a few years ago) the minimum requirement was all models must be based with at least 3 colors on them. Sometimes they'd enforce it, sometimes they wouldn't (I had a friend who was told to remove his painted SM bikers from a game because they weren't on a base, the guy didn't care that the model didn't come with one at the time :eyebrows:). Who ever told you that you don't have to paint for this hobby, well technically it's true, you can always play at home with friends and never paint a thing ever. But in the stores they can dictate whatever they want.

Honestly it sounds like you probably have a pretty chill manager if he's letting people use armless unpainted models on the store tables. And no you didn't get kicked out because you use one type of proxy vs. another type of proxy or whatever, he kicked you out because you were causing a scene in store, and probably because he thinks your a hypocrite whose attitude probably makes the game less fun for people. You proxied a weapon, your friend proxied a model, honestly it doesn't matter who was more right, you both used proxies of a sort and it's a damn stupid reason to argue over a game and get booted from a store for. You should have stood back, realized that, and cooled off instead of arguing with the manager about how your proxy was more right then someone elses proxy :rolleyes:. So if you've got to prove that your right instead of just talking it out with the guy and apologizing for letting things get out of hand go ahead and argue your point to GW central or whatever, but to me that would just justify that managers decision.

Yaro
20-10-2012, 06:52
I'm surprised your GW even let you play with unpainted models, the one near me (before it was closed down) required fully painted models with at least 3 colours, and properly done up bases.

There are much better places to play 40k than GW.

Kurisu313
20-10-2012, 07:23
Having read the op through a couple of times, I find it hard to imagine scenario were the OP is the hero and the manager the villain. The OP's description of his own actions is so blatantly hypocritical it's hard to imagine how he doesn't see it.

owen matthew
20-10-2012, 08:08
By the sounds of it, you didn't get banned because of proxying. The manager challenged you because he percieved your stance on proxying to be hypocritical; you use proxies yet complain if your opponents do while not even trying to paint your armies.

You then fought back, that's the big thing. And not by defending your rights, but by trying to pull everyone else down with you. As far as he's concenerd, you look like a hypocritical and lazy challenge to his authority that casts the hobby he's trying to sell in a bad light. He may have overreacted, but banning disruptive players from a store is well within his responsibility.

No, painting is not required to play the game. But if the store manager says it is required to be allowed to advertise the game on his gaming tables (that's what you're doing. You're not just playing, you're advertising!), he is within his rights to do so. You said yourself, he's not the manager that told you 7 years ago that you needed to paint.

Basically, you can complain. You might even get somewhere doing that, but honestly, complaining is what got you into this mess. I don't like your odds of it getting you back out. Even if GW decide that you are in the right, they will likely not be interested in having further friction by you playing at a store where the manager doesn't like you. And you'd need to be a pretty important customer for them to pick you over an employee.
Apologies and amends might get you further.

Yes, the manager is probably taking it more personal than he should, but so are you.

All of this.

OP is the pot calling the kettle black, and probably failing the attitude test at the same time.

Akaiyou
20-10-2012, 08:13
You are full well within your rights to file a complaint. And if you feel as if you have been discriminated against then you definitely should bring it up to the proper management.

Now, having said that, and being a person that's butted heads with you in the past, are you positive that there would be no reason he why he might want to discourage you from the store? From your account, it wounds like he was "looking for an excuse".

You guys never argued before? Does he kick people out often? What is it about this situation that was different?

No i haven't butted heads before he did ask me once why my dreadnoughts didn't have arms, and i explained that in that particular game i was using them as having plasma cannons which i don't own at the moment (they don't come in the dreadnought box set), he pointed out that they come in the venerable dreadnought set, and i was like 'eh, i rather get the forgeworld version or get it from something else rather than buying a whole dreadnought just for the guns' the same way i bought the aegis defense line for auto cannons. A ven. dreadnought is too expensive just to get the plasma cannons. After that he let it be didnt' bring it up until this game where he overheard me tell my friend to get the Nemesor model and the rest is as you read it.

He doens't kick people out often that i know of but there's a whole lot of gossiping about him at the store when he's not around, gossiping that i do not engage him. Mainly a LOT of the more veteran guys that have been around the store for years being very discontent with the way said manager runs the store. As far as I am concerned I had no beef with him, as I mentioned the whole thing took me by surprise

owen matthew
20-10-2012, 08:16
First I would suggest developing a thicker skin, it takes two people to have an argument and you have to be on a pretty fine trigger to rise to a fight over this kind of thing. If you'd laughed off his first comment none of the rest would have followed.

I was just thinking this, then I read further and saw how aggressive OP is in normal posts here. Temper yourself, control yourself, learn to master the situation, diffuse meaningless s*** with a joke, you don't have to fight everything! ;)

Man, you cannot have possibly described a more petty and meaningless situation, it sounds like you escalated it yourself. Take it easy.

And YES, no matter how long you have played toys there, or how much money you have spent over the years, in the US you can get thrown out or told to leave for almost any reason- you are not special, nor are your feelings- but then you can always complain! If someone who really matters thinks you are worth it maybe you can get this manager fired, but I bet not.

RandomThoughts
20-10-2012, 08:24
Sorry Akaiyou, but I mostly agree with everyone else.

The only rude ting the manager did was busting in on a private conversation between you and your friend, but if this was indeed a GW and nt the kind of indie LGS I game in, where they provide the tables in a back room simply for the customers to use as we see fit, I can see how he might be feeling responsible for everything going on in his store.

After that it was basically you being obnoxious. I think I would have taken the managers side, had I been there. Again, sorry.


How should I not take it personal?

Take what personal? That someone else calls you out when you behave like a jerk?

The_Klobb_Maniac
20-10-2012, 08:28
:S You consider not using the official Stormlord model as proxying? Really? Not as counts-as? Not as "he uses this lord that looks similar because it costs $4200 less", but you call it proxying?

First, the entitled attitude is something that easily gets one into trouble. I'd know :D :(
Sounds like you fought the law and the law won.

I'd probably:
-Apologize to your friend for ragging on him about not buying a blister he may not even like. mind you a finecast blist. Mind you that the game has counts as
-Apologize to the manager
-At least *start* commissioning your models.

While painting isn't a requirement; us gamers are a snobby batch o' gits. While I don't get things painted super-quickly, I try and churn out a bit here and there; despite being a modeller before being a painter.

owen matthew
20-10-2012, 08:31
The sheer nonsense insanity of this thread is making this the most interesting read on the boards right now!

I know that even stating that makes me as potentially immature and rash as the OP, but I just cannot help it!

Akaiyou
20-10-2012, 08:34
By accepting that he was trying to point out to you what you were missing, and which by the sounds of it has been annoying him, rather than seeing it as an insult and discrimination. By remembering that he is running a store, not a gaming club, and it's his job to make sure the hobby is 100% represented in the best light possible and that if GW sells paints, that includes suggesting with any means possible that armies should be painted.

Basically, he was trying to point out that you were throwing rocks in a glasshouse, but you decided to throw them even harder in response.


The way you described it sounded differently, my apologies.

Because you are annoyed that people proxy but don't accept that people are annoyed in return by you not bothering to paint your models. Painting and Wysiwyg are both parts of the hobby that some consider very important and others don't. Add in that you also proxy and the manager will see you as complaining about the standards of others that you, in his opinion, don't match up to. Is he absolutely right? Not really. Does he get a say on what happens in his store and thus on his gaming tables? Yes.

I'd get annoyed by both, but I accept that other people might not by either and try my best not to complain. Especially when proxying or using unpainted models myself.

The hypocrite part is with you not painting and complaining that others don't use the right models. You ask others to accept your absolute preference for wysiwyg while ignoring any desire they might have to face a painted army. They don't have a right to make you paint, but you also don't have one to say they must not proxy.


Is anyone else's army in that store also unpainted with no prospect of that changing? If so, yes, it would be discrimination. If not, you're not being discriminated against, you're just told to conform with what that manager sees as the store's 'dress code' for armies. He could have done it more tactfully, yes.

If you're the only one in the store with the consistently unpainted models, then he has a point when he says you shouldn't complain about proxying. As far as he's concerned, your models are not complete either and therefore all proxies.

You are not required to paint, no. But GW is also not required to let you play games in the store. And a manager that's been there for 2 years is not required to stick to the word of a manager from 7 years ago.

Again, you were not admonished for proxying. You were admonished for complaing about those who, in your manager's opinion, put more work and effort into the hobby than you do.

I don't mind proxy lets clarify that, another well known player there that recently got hired to work at the store fields a fantasy SPHINX as a daemon prince. At the beginning of every game he says 'this is my daemon prince'. That doesnt bother me

What bothers me is when someone has something that actually fits in his army...u know a Rhino in a space marine army. U see it deployed and u think 'oh thats a rhino' and then it starts shooting like a predator or jumps over a buidling like a land speeder. And there was no mention of this at the start of the game. As i described in one of the games i had that same day witht he necron overlord with warscythe shooting his staff of light at me and he was just a lord not even an overlord. Proxy is the responsiblity of the proxier to state before game begins.

And to quote what you just said "Is anyone else's army in that store also unpainted with no prospect of that changing? If so, yes, it would be discrimination."
- EXACTLY! The guy right in front of me (the friend i was playing against) Has also been playing at the store since the previous manager so at least 4 years in the hobby...has the same necron army and as far as painting goes, his army was as 'grey' as mine. This is also a friend whom I brought heavy gauss cannons for so he didn't have to proxy models with no 'arms' (which again is common at the store) on that very same day and he has an army full of heavy destroyers with no arms. I field a 2000 pt army with 1 single dude without an arm and get the life chewed out of me.

In terms of 'proxying' if i use it at all i keep it very light and let my opponent know prior to the game, others at the store proxy rampantly and dont even inform it, not everyone paints but by volume of how much i own i have the most 'grey' in my army i have like 4,000 pts of painted tyranids (had a friends gf paint them)...but i own 50,000 pts of stuff most of which is unpainted. Just saying I think the discrimination was pretty obvious in picking me out of a line up as if im the poster boy for it all.

In any case i'm not here trying to look for sympathy or understanding i simply wanted to know if this sort of crap happens elsewhere, is allowed and who i can complani to because i did feel offended, discriminated against and humiliated publicly infront of everyone that was there at the time. And for what?

Wintermute
20-10-2012, 08:36
This thread has run its course

Thread Closed

Wintermute