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PrivateLucky
21-10-2012, 07:08
So I am involved in a local 40k club and play a lot with my friends. They are all chill and cool guys but I am the type of person who likes tactics and strategies, things like denied flank or baiting (usually with a unit of reavers!) and making target priorities or building lists. I have been playing dark eldar almost exclusively for the past 6 months and I have had a great win/loss record although I don't really keep count. But the people I play with are very casual at 40k, they paint a bit, convert a bit, and play a bit. They like getting together and having fun but I think my idea of having fun is having a hard fought game win or lose. And I am not using any cheesy stuff to begin with, there isn't much cheese in the DE codex. I usually run a deathstar squad with drazhar, archon, 8 incubi in a raider (an very expensive unit by the way), some venoms with warriors or wyches, reaver jetbikes, and some assorted heavy support usually ravagers or razorwings. It is, in my opinion, a very balanced list. And very fast, I like fast.

I hate seeing the person on the other side of the table not having fun too. The only thing is I can't see myself taking units I don't like or purposefully doing stupid moves. I feel like that would be insulting to my opponents anyways. I am also not a big rules stickler, only that things are done right. If its 1/8th of an inch for an assault go for it. If you forgot to move something, go ahead. I just ask for leniency for me too because I forget somethings sometimes too.

So I guess my question is, how do I tone it down so I make sure both my opponents have fun and so do I?

Battleworthy Arts
21-10-2012, 07:45
I dunno man, you seem like a great player.

I want my opponent to bring their "A" game, along with a casual attitude.

Maybe help them figure out cool things to fight against your Dark Eldar? Tieing one arm behind your back won't be satisfying for anyone.

striker8
21-10-2012, 08:05
From your description you're obviously more competitive than the group you play with and more into the game side than the hobby as a whole aspect that the group has as you describe it.

You have two options, either find a group that has the same style of play as you or find a way to adapt to the way your current group views the game. There really isn't much else you can do, since it seems you're the odd ball in the group then it;s up to you to either conform to them or find one that is more conducive to what you enjoy.

The_Klobb_Maniac
21-10-2012, 08:18
If you want a "hard fought" game win or lose, I'd take more sub par units, play with a handicap, or do fluff scenarios that end up benefitting the opponent. These are all ways to increase the difficulty on you without running into any attitudes from either direction as you're compromising. Rather than changing the way you play, you're merely evening the odds or stacking them against yourself. If you both end up enjoying that, it sounds like a reasonable thing to do.

SimaoSegunda
21-10-2012, 08:29
Taking you at your word, you're not a cheesy player or a powergamer, you're just pretty good at the whole 40k thing. My question is, has anyone at the group called you on it? Has anyone had a quiet word with you about how you play, or are you having difficulty getting an opponent?

If not, I wouldn't worry too much. But the other question is, are YOU having fun? If you are, then just remember to be graceful in victory, remember there's nothing worse than a bad winner. However, you might also find it worthwhile looking elsewhere for games, which could be in addition to your current group.

The other advantage that you have is that, if you're better than your regular opponents, you can try out unusual / fluffy lists from time to time. For instance, I'm actually mainly a fantasy player. Once I've settled into a new group, if I find that I'm enjoying a very good win/loss ratio, that's when I start bringing out the funky army lists, e.g. full Night Goblin armies, etc. You never know, you might surprise yourself.

igwarlord
21-10-2012, 08:30
The best way is to go through the codex and help your friends feel excitement about the good units they may gloss over
I recently did this with a friend after I had killed all his anti veichle turn 2
we sat down and looked the list over
now I can not wait to try his new list with 2 forge fiends

omgitsduane
21-10-2012, 09:02
I think everything you described doesn't make you any more competitive than anyone else. I have my own strategies and ideas, tactics for baiting and plans but once dice get involved it flies out the window in record speed. It's nice to play against an enemy that is willing to really push their army to the extent of what's possible within certain point limits or even mixing of squads/wargear to get the best effect. You sound like a great opponent and my marines would love to die by your hand.

owen matthew
21-10-2012, 09:45
Play more of the less desirable units in your book to the top of your ability. Hamstring your build, but play as hard as you can still. I do this for the guys quite a bit. I often have more fun with the implausible builds than with the maxed ones- I still know what I'm taking to the tourney, though! ;)

the gribbly
21-10-2012, 16:32
The best way is to go through the codex and help your friends feel excitement about the good units they may gloss over
I recently did this with a friend after I had killed all his anti veichle turn 2
we sat down and looked the list over
This is a perfect example. I play in a mixed environment but I am usually at the top end of the competitive spectrum, for my meta. I am by no means a power gamer nor do I want to be, but many of my friends are less involved in the strategy and tactics than myself. I actually consider my meta to be very healthy because its less than purely competitive (re: optimized only) meaning we promote a certain amount of diversity that such an environment usually pushes out. Conversely this is why I consider purely competitive environments to be unhealthy to an extent.

For my part I am constantly discussing my friends lists and strategies to help them shore up weaknesses and find cohesion in their lists. Sometimes I even help them tailor slightly against what I commonly roll with just to swing the advantage a little for the sake of fun. I will never throw a game though.
I will however point out the weaknesses of my own list and units so my opponents have an understanding of how to beat me. I believe this is key to keeping regular opponents because if someone feels they are in a no win situation often enough they will quit having fun and may even quit the hobby.
Anyway maybe you could take some of these approaches in your group because more than any other game ive been involved in I believe tabletop wargames require a certain amount of attention to the group and environment to remain healthy for everyone.

Lord Inquisitor
21-10-2012, 16:39
Play more of the less desirable units in your book to the top of your ability. Hamstring your build, but play as hard as you can still. I do this for the guys quite a bit. I often have more fun with the implausible builds than with the maxed ones- I still know what I'm taking to the tourney, though! ;)

This. Really, if you're winning all your games then its time to even the score. Your friends probably don't like losing all the time and from a competitive player's standpoint, where's the challenge in that? Self limit yourself to units and builds that aren't very good or just plain horrible until it takes every ounce of skill and cunning just to break even.

The fun thing about this is if you do it for long enough, if you go to a tournament or similar setting where you can cut loose as it were, it's going to feel a whole lot easier!

shakedown47
21-10-2012, 16:59
As some people have already suggested, limiting yourself to less-competitive unit choices is one way to go. However, that may require that you buy and paint new models (may or may not be undesirable for you) but also that you do something you already said you didn't want to do, i.e. taking units you don't like or dumbing your game down. To that effect, just use the same list you're using now but switch models around. For instance, instead of taking a deathstar of incubi and two highly competitive combat characters (and by the way, anytime a unit can legitimately be called a deathstar, it's cheesy) just break them up into two smaller units, drazhar and 4 incubi in a venom and the archon and 4 incubi in another. Take the wyches you stole the venom from, combine them into one unit, and put them in the now-vacant raider. Just do a few things like that across the board and give it a go, it's a quick and easy way to tone down your list while still keeping many of the same models and tactics.

PrivateLucky
21-10-2012, 17:34
(and by the way, anytime a unit can legitimately be called a deathstar, it's cheesy)

I wouldn't call any unit that costs 586pts with a majority of t3 3+ armor saves cheesy, just expensive. But on a different note, thanks for all the advice! I would like to try out some of the less powerful armies as I like them and the idea of an uphill battle but the models, upcoming update, or play-style does not suit me. For example, I like sisters of battle but the models are metal, plus the fact that they are Imperial. Tau too but their future is uncertain and I have limited income so I really have to build up and plan my armies so it may take a while to build a new army. I have decided against playing any Imperial army. I'd like to mainly play Xenos as there are many power-armored opponents around my area.

TheMadadh
22-10-2012, 04:48
I don't think you're too competitive. We used to have a player like you in our group (he moved away) who we really just couldn't compete with. He was just better, and put a lot more time into his list building and tactics than the rest of us. He eventually started to go to local tournaments and things of that nature in order to fulfill his urge to play really competitive games.

To keep playing with your friends, I wouldn't say you should hamstring your build, but I would second the notion that you should set up scenarios that are a little more fluffy or unbalanced. Or, if they are interested, maybe they just need some help being more competitive, which you can provide.

MajorWesJanson
22-10-2012, 05:06
You are playing a list that you like, that from the sounds of it is a mixed force without a lot of spam or gimmicks, and you claim to want to play for the fight, not for the victory. You may be more competitive than the others in your group, but you are far from the uber-competitive WAAC player.

I would not worry about toning yourself down, as you seem to be fine. What may be an alternative is to make alternate goals for your army, not just the mission, but things like to have your warlord face theirs in close combat, or get 3 pain tokens with the same unit, or keep track of your characters and units- how many kills and deaths they have, biggest kills, ect. and have them compete for prestige over time, things like that. Personal challenges that don't affect the game but add a challenge for you and a more narrative element for your opponent.
Another option is to go over the game with your opponent after it ends, and do a debrief, ask why they did what they did, why you did what you did, and discuss tactics and strategy.

Your list is not cheesy, and you sound fairly casual with the rules, not a rules-lawyer. I would not recommend hamstring your list with things like purposefully bad units or lower point values than your opponent- it would be unsatisfying to you, as you like the battle and the list you play, and can be seen as patronizing to your opponent.

Chapters Unwritten
22-10-2012, 05:33
Never let anyone tell you how you should play this game.

My entire group consists of people like you and we are quite happy week to week, and have been for years.

Khornies & milk
22-10-2012, 06:07
Never let anyone tell you how you should play this game.

My entire group consists of people like you and we are quite happy week to week, and have been for years.

Exactly, so QFT x's 10. - oh and that includes GW and that BullS*** in the 6th Ed book.

owen matthew
22-10-2012, 10:36
I wouldn't call any unit that costs 586pts with a majority of t3 3+ armor saves cheesy, just expensive. But on a different note, thanks for all the advice! I would like to try out some of the less powerful armies as I like them and the idea of an uphill battle but the models, upcoming update, or play-style does not suit me. For example, I like sisters of battle but the models are metal, plus the fact that they are Imperial. Tau too but their future is uncertain and I have limited income so I really have to build up and plan my armies so it may take a while to build a new army. I have decided against playing any Imperial army. I'd like to mainly play Xenos as there are many power-armored opponents around my area.

One other thing. If you get to a level of mastery it will almost not even matter what you use, you will still do well, as you just understand the list, what the other guy's stuff can do etc... You will get to the point where you can "squeeze" more out of a unit or a list than the average player. The game gets boring at that point. It does not mean you cannot lose, dice are still involved, it just means that you see it all very clearly...

IcedCrow
22-10-2012, 13:26
A truly skilled player can win with just about anything. As has been said by many in here, start challenging yourself and start taking less "optimal" lists. When you start winning with less "optimal" lists, you will have increased your own skill, will find games at the "competitive" level easier, and will be one of those rare people that really are just that good.

Captain Idaho
22-10-2012, 13:41
Most players are actually pretty rubbish at 40K. It's why we see so much emphasis on lists; people want to line up and shoot, whilst marching their assault units or transports forward with no real thought other than to close the distance. People therefore assume units which require a little finesse or thought and planning to get the most out of are rubbish and we see so many "Internet says this is the best" lists out there.

Casual players are normally players who do this. Sorry if this sounds offensive, it's supposed to just be a relvelation :)

Fagerlund
22-10-2012, 13:53
I don't really believe in handicapping yourself, all though that is indeed a challenge too but it's still taking away from yourself as well. I rather believe in the education approach instead, because when you're the one teaching your opponents stuff they will learn how you think. Now that will become a challenge to beat, if you've done a good job! I think that way is more rewarding in the long run, because you're not limiting yourself but instead you're forcing yourself to think more on what you need to do better really.
And you don't really need to do all the work yourself either, it might be enough to just give them a prod in the right direction. Give them advice on where they can find tacticas and what not, discuss how it works etc.

Here's a nice article about kind of the "other way around", describing a player coming into a very competitive group. All it takes is time!
http://www.fritz40k.com/2012/10/the-40k-tipping-point.html
It's a nice blog to recommend to your opponents overall as well actually, there and his youtube channel he's talking a lot about tactics and how you should think about making stuff work in your army!



Most players are actually pretty rubbish at 40K. It's why we see so much emphasis on lists; people want to line up and shoot, whilst marching their assault units or transports forward with no real thought other than to close the distance. People therefore assume units which require a little finesse or thought and planning to get the most out of are rubbish and we see so many "Internet says this is the best" lists out there.

Casual players are normally players who do this. Sorry if this sounds offensive, it's supposed to just be a relvelation :)

All though this is off topic, I agree with this. However, the problem is that there are units which you do not need to put so much thought in about using and they will work out fine anyway (Yes Space Marines, I'm looking at you). So just list building is valid still.

Col. Dash
22-10-2012, 13:56
I dont think its that bad. I have played in 5th a game where I was told my army was far too cheesy. It was the old Duke build where in 2000 points I had every single choice slot filled except an HQ. Everything was in Raiders , plus the 3 Blasterborn squads and 3 Razorwings with their 4 missiles of doom. It all came in from reserve and deepstrike. Admittingly it could be a nasty list and annoying to play. I won a local tourny and several leagues with it. It had its fair share of losses(dont get me started on how the dice gods hated me at ard boyz) as well, running a all deep strike list tends to behave like that, even when you stacked the odds with large numbers of reserve rolls.

I had several players that flat out told me my army was completely unfun to play. They did not enjoy the games at all and would not want to play against that list again. Well I thought about it, especially since one of the players is someone I respect as a gamer and person and decided to shelve the project because I didnt want to be 'that guy'. I had the army I wanted and enjoyed playing(fast and lethal shooting), I could care less for close combat. So I pulled my Carcharodons back out and started playing them again. At the next tourney I played against a guy who used my army as a template with some minor changes. He flat out devastated me. Now I understood what everyone was saying. My army was not equipped for this kind of fight and it truthfully was one of the least fun games I have ever played. So I see it from both sides.

Note that I am not a super competitive player. I picked DE because they had the look I really enjoyed painting and the army behaved like I enjoyed playing it(I like fast shooty armies) but playing in the style I enjoyed simply was not fun for my opponents. In 6th my army is shot using those tactics so I might pull them back out and look into it. The Duke List wont work since half the units have to start on the board, the fighters cant do the volley of doom anymore(I did that once against GK with a single fighter against 10 terminators, I inflicted 28 wounds with the full volley and guns.

What it comes down to is sometimes the style of play you enjoy in your army, just isnt fun at all for your opponents. The alpha strike is a very annoying army to play against, especially when everyone alpha strikes and you are left helpless as your army is quickly laid waste to with impunity. You seem to have done what I did towards the end and added some close combat troops. MNy suggestion is just try a different style of play.

Lord Inquisitor
22-10-2012, 19:46
I wouldn't call any unit that costs 586pts with a majority of t3 3+ armor saves cheesy, just expensive. But on a different note, thanks for all the advice! I would like to try out some of the less powerful armies as I like them and the idea of an uphill battle but the models, upcoming update, or play-style does not suit me. For example, I like sisters of battle but the models are metal, plus the fact that they are Imperial. Tau too but their future is uncertain and I have limited income so I really have to build up and plan my armies so it may take a while to build a new army. I have decided against playing any Imperial army. I'd like to mainly play Xenos as there are many power-armored opponents around my area.

It doesn't have to be a different army. Change things up with what you have. Don't deathstar up (yes, even T3 deathstars are annoying when they slaughter you to a man before you can swing!). If there are particular combos you like, change them up. Try without a Shadowfield for a while. Run some of those units that are languishing in your figure case. If people say ... I don't know Dark Eldar very well ... Scourges suck, or Mandrakes or whatever, then take a unit of them and try and get them to work. As for your regular unis, don't run the optimal unit configs! Try it without a blaster in every unit. And so on.

Some people say this is "hamstringing" your list and to a degree this is right. But what it does is make the game a close-fought fight between you and your opponents. It's challenging yourself! If you field sub-optimal units and combos you'll often find new strategies and nuances in the rules required to make them work. Change things up, broaden your experience and if you're really a competitive type, this should be way more fun for you AND your opponents. They don't like to be curbstomped every time, and where's the challenge for a competitive player?

Consider it 40K on "hard mode".

Xerkics
22-10-2012, 21:39
I think everyone should be able to run what they want . Its their hobby . I personally think playing Ultramarines with Vulcan Hestan might be lame but another person paid the money and spent time painting the models so he deserves to play them just as much as i 2 units of long fangs or say 3 night scythes for my troops. Its not your fault that other people choose to play theme lists. If they are not having fun because of what they choose to run a certain lists its not really your fault. As long as you respect your opponent and display sportsmanship there is nothing wrong with being competitive.

grayghost
23-10-2012, 00:08
In your casual environment, you might offer up some advice to your opponents and/or explain precisely why and how you did what you did to win.

shakedown47
23-10-2012, 16:48
It doesn't have to be a different army. Change things up with what you have. Don't deathstar up (yes, even T3 deathstars are annoying when they slaughter you to a man before you can swing!). If there are particular combos you like, change them up. Try without a Shadowfield for a while. Run some of those units that are languishing in your figure case. If people say ... I don't know Dark Eldar very well ... Scourges suck, or Mandrakes or whatever, then take a unit of them and try and get them to work. As for your regular unis, don't run the optimal unit configs! Try it without a blaster in every unit. And so on.

Some people say this is "hamstringing" your list and to a degree this is right. But what it does is make the game a close-fought fight between you and your opponents. It's challenging yourself! If you field sub-optimal units and combos you'll often find new strategies and nuances in the rules required to make them work. Change things up, broaden your experience and if you're really a competitive type, this should be way more fun for you AND your opponents. They don't like to be curbstomped every time, and where's the challenge for a competitive player?

Consider it 40K on "hard mode".

I'd second this. While I agree that everyone should be able to play what they want, not have their lists dictated to them or dumbed down blah blah blah, in the case of the OP the dissatisfaction with the game stems solely from his own actions (and let me elaborate on that before everyone cries foul.) In the OP's specific case, he's found himself the big fish in a small pond, and it may not be very doable to switch ponds. It's just as ludicrous to expect everyone else to rise to your level as it is for them to expect you to sink to theirs, but something (and someone) has to give. If you're the one that wants change, you have to be the one willing to do the changing. Again, it seems that the OP's main concern isn't that he's winning all the time, it's that the games aren't very enjoyable for either party, so the idea of "play whatever you like" isn't working here.

As Lord Inquisitor and I and others have said, just try re-arranging your current list; use different unit configurations, different deployment tactics, and switch up wargear. This shouldn't really require that you purchase any new models (at worst you might have to use wych weapons as counts-as or vice versa, that kind of thing) and you may be surprised at how different your game becomes. Heck, you may even find that the overall efficacy of your army increases by switching some things around, i.e. no one unit is quite as outright killy as before but each unit becomes more survivable, etc.

popisdead
24-10-2012, 21:06
If they aren't painting their models and being active with gaming sounds like the hobby is just some fun for them. Maybe scale back or deliberatly don't do things to wipe out enemy units.