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omgitsduane
21-10-2012, 09:07
I'm a little curious about something that tends to bug me on a miniscule basis but I've sometimes seen waved right out of proportion to another galaxy system.
The parallax error.

What I mean is the reading of the scatter dice direction, a simple tool and a simple idea that sometimes can be put inches off course because of misread of the angle. Has anyone else noticed when watching either their opponent or other games that scatter dice direction can be put way off angle? I've personally seen a number of games where the dice is pointing towards 5o clock, but the measurement is taken on an 8 o clock angle almost.
Diagram of parallax error.

Does this bother anyone else? Sometimes I understand the angle is so tiny and the particular shot being used won't be effected by the change much, but when you're deep striking down a small angle difference can be life or death.

ehlijen
21-10-2012, 09:41
That's why you always roll the dice as close to the impact point as is practical. The closer they are, the more obvious any deviation becomes and can thus be more easily avoided.

Schismotive
21-10-2012, 09:58
I've noticed some players tend to do a sort of "snap to 45 degrees" when determining direction... it's probably not intentional, but makes the result look wrong sometimes.

Lord Damocles
21-10-2012, 10:01
That's why you always roll the dice as close to the impact point as is practical.
This.
ninja leters

Johnnya10
21-10-2012, 10:21
It's easily done and I imagine in very competitive settings it has really upset people in the past, and will continue to do so. In friendlier games, it's always ok to say "hold up, it's more like..." And you can even use a pencil or something straight to place on the scatter d to highlight or enhance the arrow's direction.

Recently, my usual opponent and I have started using dice apps on our iOS devices because we're tech geeks and why not. Using two "O" and four "=>", we can make scatter die that you can roll right over the hand holding the template. That has seemed to help a lot. And in theory, you don't need a phone for that. You could always use a clear bottomed tray and hold that over while rolling scatter. Phone's easier though.

Vipoid
21-10-2012, 12:07
Does this bother anyone else? Sometimes I understand the angle is so tiny and the particular shot being used won't be effected by the change much, but when you're deep striking down a small angle difference can be life or death.

Generally, it's only a problem if:

a) It's impossible (for whatever reason) to obtain a viewpoint directly above the dice.

b) the scatter is both long distance (maximising the effect of any errors) and likely to still have an effect on the battle.

It's not usually a problem for us. However, when it is a problem, it can often lead to an irritating argument. This is especially true since my group plays a lot of 2v2s, and so everyone will b viewing the dice from a different angle. :eyebrows:

The Marshel
21-10-2012, 12:17
This.
ninja leters

there are 11 ninjas in this post

i play a lot of games at home with a small group of people around. there is usualy a third party watching the games, so if scatter ever gets a bit messy its not hard to sort out.

edit: ninjas aren't as effective in quotes it seems :D

omgitsduane
21-10-2012, 13:15
This.
ninja leters

I've seen it happen plenty of times where the dice is rolled only two inches from the impact and its still skewed.

flemfilms
21-10-2012, 17:08
I've come across this problem several times as well. Even in tournaments. And the parallax error always tends to gravitate toward something they want to kill.

That being said the easiest thing to do is hold a tape measure, ruler, or measuring stick and drop it right onto the top of the scatter dice. Then your opponent has a much longer guide to match direction and there really is no grey area (very little) for parallax error.

In one example I lost a round in a doubles tournie to a chap who had the worst parallax error I've ever seen, always right toward where he wanted templates and deep strikers to be. Even his own partner pointed out his error, but he was terribly stubborn about it while demostrating this b***s*** mechanism of drawing right angles with other rulers to put him right where he wanted to be. We argued it but gave in because it was the stupidest thing in the world to argue about. We just gave him the worst opponent rating we could. He and his partner then went on to take 1st place in the tournament. Go figure.

So now I just hold the measuring device over the dice automatically no matter whom I'm playing against and ask others to do the same for my scatters. And I haven't seen the problem since.

DivineVisitor
21-10-2012, 18:33
I've seen some crackers when determining scatter angle.

Its when they stick the measuring stick/tape down and then proceed to pivot their body as they move the measuring implement to the target and stating; "but im not moving my arms!". I seemed to be the only one who saw it one time when the angel difference was over 45 degrees.
Ended up needing to get my own tape measure out stretching it over the scatter dice and instructing my opponent and those watching to measure parallel to my tape.

Cheeslord
21-10-2012, 19:12
Our general rule of thumb is to always ask your opponent if you think something is marginal (most often: does that deepstrike mishap or not?) usually we manage to agree on such things (but then again we are not tournament/WAAC players)

Mark

totgeboren
21-10-2012, 19:31
I always draw a straight (imaginary) line across the board, crossing the scatter die. From that line and the arrow on the die, I/we make out the angle the scatter is supposed to go, and then place that angle over the model/point that was aimed for.
Using a straight line across the board as reference minimises this problem imo. I installed an app which contained a scatter die which I want to try out, but I don't think it would help all that much tbh.

neko
21-10-2012, 19:32
I've seen the body pivot on quite a few occassions too. It's surprising to see how much difference it can make and still leave the measurer completely unaware of what they're doing.

Lord Inquisitor
21-10-2012, 19:41
Rolling close helps, but parallax error is still there. Holding the tape measure close to the table also helps with it. However by far the best solution is, after rolling close to the point, move around the table so you're looking straight down the arrow. If both players stand in this position (or on opposite sides of the arrow), there is no parallax error and agreement should be much easier.

Borgnine
22-10-2012, 16:28
I've seen some crackers when determining scatter angle.

Its when they stick the measuring stick/tape down and then proceed to pivot their body as they move the measuring implement to the target and stating; "but im not moving my arms!". I seemed to be the only one who saw it one time when the angel difference was over 45 degrees.
Ended up needing to get my own tape measure out stretching it over the scatter dice and instructing my opponent and those watching to measure parallel to my tape.

This exactly happened to me on the weekend at a tournament. The person used a tape measure and then swung her body while relocating from the die to the target point, greatly changing the scatter angle...

loveless
22-10-2012, 16:39
Scatter is my least favorite part of the game because I always think people are measuring incorrectly (which probably means I'm the one with the problem :p).

I'd agree that you need to roll as close to the target as possible. Other games have implemented scatter templates, but GW insists on relying on those infernal cubes!

Nurgling Chieftain
22-10-2012, 18:51
When possible, I use a laser line-generator to line up the scatter direction. Makes it a lot easier to get a parallel line. Tends to stop at terrain or large models, though.

Lord Inquisitor
22-10-2012, 18:53
Yeah laser lines are great. However they can still suffer from error particularly when moving the line. The best solution is still to move around the board to face directly on or away from the arrow.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-10-2012, 19:26
However they can still suffer from error particularly when moving the line."Moving the line"? The laser stays in place. The tape measure is held parallel.

The best solution is still to move around the board to face directly on or away from the arrow.Interesting idea. I'll have to try it out a bit more to see what I think.

Lord Inquisitor
22-10-2012, 19:33
"Moving the line"? The laser stays in place. The tape measure is held parallel.
That's a good way of doing it.

MajorWesJanson
23-10-2012, 01:21
When possible, I use a laser line-generator to line up the scatter direction. Makes it a lot easier to get a parallel line. Tends to stop at terrain or large models, though.

Laser lines are also near essential for setting up the diagonal table deployment.

spaint2k
23-10-2012, 06:27
I use a tape or one of those otherwise-useless red measuring sticks to lay over the scatter dice and get a baseline angle with the edge of the board. But I also usually try to roll as closely as possible to the origin of the scatter.