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misomiso
22-10-2012, 16:23
Hello
I was wandering if a model with the Sniper rule can use it if the unit he is in chooses to Stand and Shoot when being charged?

I can find no reason not too in the Rules, and was specifically thinking of the Witch hunter with a Brace of pistols firing at his Accusation choice in the unit charging him.
This would mean he would get two shots at short range BS 4 with -1 for sniping and -1 for multi shot for a to hit roll of 5+ (brace of pistols are quick to fire so no penalty for stand and shoot)
He could then re roll both of these as per The Accusation rule.

Would like confirmation on this as 2 hits at 5+ rerolling is quite good when you have a chance of Killing Blow before combat has started.

Zhatan
23-10-2012, 00:35
You can't use sniper when you stand and shoot. It's in the FAQ.

Blkc57
23-10-2012, 01:01
You can't use sniper when you stand and shoot. It's in the FAQ.

If that's true its a major change, what page of the FAQ?

EDIT: I have scanned the FAQ furiously and not seeing it, sir. If you are referring to the comment on page 3, it only changes paragraph 3 which is about shooting at a different target than the rest of the unit. If anything that FAQ leads credence to the fact that you can sniper in a stand and shoot reaction.

Lord Inquisitor
23-10-2012, 01:07
Is it? I must have missed it. Can you quote it?

Zhatan
23-10-2012, 02:01
Ah my bad, I misread the FAQ passage.
Then I guess you can stand and shoot with sniper.

Blkc57
23-10-2012, 05:34
Its cool its a rather ambiguous passage for the Sniper rule and its not really clear cut even amongst this forum, so when you said they FAQ'd it I got really excited that we finally had a definitive ruling on sniper shots. I was sad that we still do not.

T10
23-10-2012, 12:44
Page 75 – Special Rules, Sniper.
Change “A model making a[...]” to “unless making a Stand
and Shoot charge reaction, a model making a[...]” at the start
of the third paragraph.

Lord Inquisitor
23-10-2012, 15:31
Well found T10. I missed that!

misomiso
23-10-2012, 15:44
Well Found!
That clears, that up then. No close range sniping for the WH. A pity he cant exchange his pistol for a Handgun or a Long rifle but never mind.

Blkc57
23-10-2012, 17:04
t10, do the substitution and then read the third paragraph. All that FAQ changes is that when you stand and shoot and can't shoot another unit like the Sniper rule normally lets you do.

misomiso
23-10-2012, 17:36
It really annoys me how GW seem incapable of correcting them selves. It cannot be beyond the realm of human competence to put something clearer in the faq. All they would have to say is
'A model with Sniper can shoot at a different target from that chosen by his unit, except during a stand and shoot reaction, in which the case the Sniper must choose a target in the charging unit or shoot normally.'

Bikc57 is right, the FAQ doesn't clear it up one way or another, but I would say on balance that a model can use Snipe as part of Stand and Shoot, but only at the unit charging it.

Agree?

AntaresCD
23-10-2012, 20:03
The FAQ changes the relevant paragraph to:

Unless making a Stand and Shoot charge reaction, a model making a Sniper shot can shoot at a different target than the one chosen by his unit. A hit from a Sniper shot is not distributed in the same manner as other shooting attacks. The Sniper cam shoot any model he can see, including characters or shampions within a unit and so on - the controlling player simply declares which model will be the Sniper's target - "Look Out Sir!" cannot be taken.

So therefore I believe this is relevant. Normal shooting targets a unit. Sniper shots target any model (or model part in the case of ridden monsters, chariots, or other places where a hit is randomized). So unless you are targetting a single model that has no seperate parts (in which case a Sniper shot is quite pointless), the FAQ change is germane. A target of the unit is not the same a target of a specific model that is in the unit. Since it says that you must have the same target as your unit during a Stand and Shoot, that means you must target the whole unit, which precludes Sniping, unless it is a single part, single model unit (in which case why take a further -1).

What is interesting about this is that it does not disallow making a Sniper Shot in a Stand and Shoot, it only disallows choosing a target that differs from your unit. So this leads to the following questions:
1) What happens if the Sniper is the only model with a ranged attack, and is therefore the only model shooting? Since no one else is shooting, no one else has a different target per se.
2) What happens if all models shooting have the Sniper rule? If they all target the same model/model part, they are not violating the restriction on targetting different things.

misomiso
23-10-2012, 20:29
I disagree. If we are getting technical the relevant part is:-




Unless making a Stand and Shoot charge reaction, a model making a Sniper shot can shoot at a different target than the one chosen by his unit. A hit from a Sniper shot is not distributed in the same manner as other shooting attacks.

These are TWO different statements. The first one says that a sniper shot can be directed at a different target unless the Model is making a stand and shoot reaction. The second part deals with how the shot is distributed, and says that a Snipe is not distributed in the normal way. So even though you have to shoot at the same unit you are being charged with the Sniper shot is still not resolved as a normal shot. It is resolved as described against a chosen model within the target.

The key is the word Target. A target for a normal Sniper shot can still be a Unit, its just that the shot is resolved in a special away, against a chosen model rather than normal firing distribution.

This is my interpretation. But I can also see that this could really do with further clarification.
Anybody with tournament rulings on this would be welcome?

misomiso
23-10-2012, 20:31
Also your points 1 and 2 are very interesting!
1) for the witchhunter this should mean that he can Snipe so long as he is in a melee unit even if your interpretation is correct.
2) What units would all have the sniper rule?

Blkc57
23-10-2012, 21:24
2) What units would all have the sniper rule?

A large unit of Ogre maneaters with ogre pistols. This is where the rules debate actually is important as Ogre Maneaters are a common and very game influencing unit as opposed to the witch hunter, who is more of a gimmick for Empire players.

I understand though where GW is coming from on this, as how do you reign in the craziness of the Man-eaters without nerfing the sniper rule for other armies like Wood elves and Empire?

misomiso
23-10-2012, 21:47
Ah i see. Quite nasty.
I think this is going to have to filed under one of the many rules requiring further classification from GW. I would guess that they should go the common sense route and NOT allow units with The Snipe rule to use it when standing and shooting, BUT make an exception in the rules for special units. SO the Ogre Manhunters would not be able to do it, but a WH or other Hero level characters could.

The could even create another rule called 'Master Snipe' to better clarify it.

It just seems the Snipe is wasted on the WH unless he can stand and shoot as his pistols only have a range of 12, short range at 6. Not very good.

T10
23-10-2012, 21:55
This is going to sound stupid, but to me this seems to be what the Warhammer rules are built up around:

Models are not units, even if the unit consists of a single model.

Damn, that sounds awkward, but hear me out. You declare your charge targets on the unit level, same with shooting. You take your Panic tests at the unit level, same with Fear and Break tests.

To hit rolls, hit allocation, to wound rolls etc. are worked out on the model level. You don't roll to wound a unit of goblins, you roll to wound a goblin model, and it is a particular goblin model because you scored a hit that was allocated to it. One can actually point to the specific rank-and-file model and say "Him!", such as when the model is hit by a template attack, or if he's been allocated a close combat attack, or his owning player allocates a shooting hit to him, but the owning playes is obliged to remove one from the rear ranks regardless.

Special Rules are granted at the model level, and their effects apply on the model level, the unit level, or both. Frenzy grants each model in the unit the Extra Attack special rule (which again grants the model +1 attack), but is also has effects on the unit level: if the unit contains one or more models it is compelled to charge, and via the Immune to Psychology rule, the unit automatically passes Panic, Fear and Terror tests if the majority of the models have that Special Rule.

It's not always perfect, but it's usually quite clear. A banner that "grants the unit Frenzy" actually means it grants each model in the unit Frenzy, otherwise it would be worthless.

The various Special Rules are pretty consistent in wether or not unit level effects are in play if one or more model, the majority, or all the models have the Special Rule. They are also fairly consistent when it comes to Special Rules that grant models exceptions to normal rules that would normally apply to the whole unit.

For example, the Random Movement rule gives the model the ability to move different from how units normally move. It may be a poor example since it deals with MODELS declaring charges, but it takes into account units of multiple models with the same rule.

The Sniper Special Rule does not take into account units where all the models have the ability. However, this means that if the unit is to shoot then you nominate a target unit as normal, and then each model picks his own target freely as described in the Special Rule.

AntaresCD
24-10-2012, 01:01
I disagree. If we are getting technical the relevant part is:-



These are TWO different statements. The first one says that a sniper shot can be directed at a different target unless the Model is making a stand and shoot reaction. The second part deals with how the shot is distributed, and says that a Snipe is not distributed in the normal way. So even though you have to shoot at the same unit you are being charged with the Sniper shot is still not resolved as a normal shot. It is resolved as described against a chosen model within the target.

The key is the word Target. A target for a normal Sniper shot can still be a Unit, its just that the shot is resolved in a special away, against a chosen model rather than normal firing distribution.

This is my interpretation. But I can also see that this could really do with further clarification.
Anybody with tournament rulings on this would be welcome?

To address your point specifically, Sniper shots must be allocated at their target. Their target would be a specific model/model part. The unit's target is the entire unit. You cannot on one hand say that the sniper targets the unit then say that a chosen model is the target. If the target is the unit (which makes it pointless as a sniper shot, and by definition it is not a sniper shot) you have a standard ranged attack! If it targets a specific model/model part then its target is different than its unit's! You can't have the "target" be two different things...

I understand your interpretation but you can't cherrypick only part of the rule and not apply it to context as well...

Let's break the modified paragraph down and see if we can come to a clear conclusion, including the points you raised on the second sentence:

1) Unless making a Stand and Shoot charge reaction, a model making a Sniper shot can shoot at a different target than the one chosen by his unit.
You now have two clearly defined situations: when the Sniper shot is part of a Stand and Shoot charge reaction and when it isn't. In the latter you are allowed to shoot at a different target than your unit is shooting at and in the former you do not have that exemption, i.e. you must shoot at the same target. We are focussing on the case of the former in this discussion.

2) A hit from a Sniper shot is not distributed in the same manner as other shooting attacks.
We now know that a Sniper shot is not subject to standard shooting distribution.

3) The Sniper can shoot any model he can see, including characters or champions within a unit and so on - the controlling player simply declares which model will be the Sniper's target - "Look Out Sir!" cannot be taken.
We now know that valid targets for a Sniper shot are any model that can be seen by the Sniper, including characters and chapions, which normally cannot be picked out by shooting, and that "Look Out Sir!" is dissallowed, which is another exemption.

So let's take this together:
1) The sniper must shoot at the same target as his unit if it's a stand and shoot.
2) Sniper shots do not follow the standard shooting distribution.
3) A Sniper shot may target any model seen, including characters or champions.

Now for this information to be useful you have to go through the normal shooting process:
A) The unit selects a target. The target is always a unit in front arc, within range, and that can be seen.
B) All models that can fire, fire and any hits are distributed in that classic way that is referenced all over the place.

Ok so how does the fit together? First on point A, targetting:
-Point 1 allows the model to fire at a different target than his unit (if not a stand and shoot).
-Point 3 (and the paragraph following the one under discussion) define the valid targets as not just units, but individual models/model parts.
So a Sniper shot instead may target any unit, model, or model part (in the case of things that can be targetted or hit seperately). The target may be different than that of the unit if it is not a Stand and Shoot, but must be the same as his unit if it is. Note that while it doesn't specifically disallow you from apply a Sniper shot at a unit, it would make no sense based on how the shot would be resolved (since shots at a unit would require you to follow standard shooting distribution - which is disallowed, so how would you apply the hit to a target unit?) and the resolution listed applies only at a model level otherwise you arrive at a contradiction. So implicitly (and based on some common sense too, really) sniper shots are targetted at models and model-parts only.

On point B, resolution:
-Point 2 makes it clear that the traditional form of distribution is no longer valid.
-Point 3 then describes how the shot is distributed, that is, it is not distributed but instead applied directly to the chosen target and cannot be reallocatted even by "Look Out Sir!"
So hit allocation is instead of the usual (which I won't repeat here, this post is long enough as is) you instead apply the hit directly to the target that was designated (see above for what targets were valid selections).

Note that it specifically says the hit is allocated to the Sniper's target. Note that per the first point, in a stand and shoot, you must target the same thing as your unit. In a standard ranged attack, only a unit may be selected, so in a stand and shoot the same unit may only be selected as target. A Sniper shot is relevant where the target is a specific model. Hence my statement that the only time, during a stand and shoot, that a sniper shot could hit the same target as the firing unit's shots would be firing at a single model unit where the model has no seperate parts. I further pointed out that that was pointless.

That is how I derived the conclusion that while a Sniper shot is not disallowed explicitly, it can only be managed validly in one specific (and pointless instance). The reading of the rules did lead to two other situations though that I enumerated.

Blkc57
24-10-2012, 09:30
Hahaha, that was an epic post Antares. I agree with you on principle, but as T10 began to discuss, there is an awfully grey area defining a model and a unit, one might be able to argue that they can target a specific model within a unit and still be satisfying the requirement that you are targeting the "unit".

Most likely its never gonna be clear cut until GW comes down from their high mountain and says "Yes, you may stand and shoot with your Sniper and all that the action entails" or "Don't even try it buster!"

AntaresCD
24-10-2012, 17:06
Hahaha, that was an epic post Antares. I agree with you on principle, but as T10 began to discuss, there is an awfully grey area defining a model and a unit, one might be able to argue that they can target a specific model within a unit and still be satisfying the requirement that you are targeting the "unit".

Most likely its never gonna be clear cut until GW comes down from their high mountain and says "Yes, you may stand and shoot with your Sniper and all that the action entails" or "Don't even try it buster!"
I understand that perspective, I just find it to be an awfully slippery slope to start defining "target" in such a mutable fashion. Nowhere else that I can think of (please correct me if I'm wrong here) do you have a case where your target is not actually your target. When you target a unit you target the unit as a whole. When you target a specific model you target just that model. You can't say you're targetting the model but that means you are targetting the whole unit as well (your target is in the unit, it is not the whole unit). If they intend to just say you can snipe a target in the unit you're standing and shooting against, then fine, but I find it questionable, at best, to justify it with such a mutable definition of "target."

Also, like I pointed out, as written it doesn't prevent you from sniping during a stand and shoot, it just makes it so there are no valid targets if non-snipers are shooting as well.

And yes, sorry, I tend to deconstruct things and assempble it logically when I make a reasoned summary and then someone cherrypicks afterwards. I've done it before... >.< In my mind it's the simplest way of ensuring the thought process is followed fully, assuming it gets read.

misomiso
24-10-2012, 21:44
Does anyone know any tournament rulings on this? Anyone know the ETC ruling?

decker_cky
25-10-2012, 02:26
Targeting a character or champion cannot be a different unit. If you think from a character point of view, it's confusing, but it's clear for champions. They're a part of the unit, and just happen to have some extra rules. Looking back at characters, the same logic applies. When a character joins a unit, they form a combined [character + unit] unit. The combined [character + unit] unit is what's being targeted, and sniper can target the character, the standard bearer, the musician, the champion, or any other rank and file model - so long as he has line of sight.