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IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 12:27
So the Dark Angels codex is supposedly up next and the author of all things unholy and silver is the author of this book. Should we expect Cypher and the Grand Master of the Dark Angels to really be BFFs from childhood, exchanging battlfield stories while one upping Draigo and sticking colonoscopy bags on a trio of bloodthirsters while lulzing? Will their unique flyer be as cheap and spammed as the night scythes? Which unit do you feel will be spammed to hell and back or do you think it will be multiple units this time around?

My guess is that either the bikers or the deathwing terminators are going to be jacked up in unholy power and dropped in points to make perfect cookie-cutter netlists. Either that or dark angels tactical marines will drop in points and receive a free plasma cannon upgrade. Those sound fairly reasonable right? Better yet, the new librarian powers. Mr. Ward can paruse the sweet fantasy spell lists and come up with some gems like an imitation of Pit of Shades or Purple Sun or the 13th spell! That would be pretty cool and epic for the win. Librarian walks up to any unit he wants, casts the 13th spell of Dark Angels Awesome and 4D6 of your models turn into little monklets with no save of any kind allowed. He should cost about 50 points too. And be an elite that you can take three of to fill one slot. That sounds about balanced to me.

What do you think? Will dark green become the new silver or do you think the man has the capability to actually write something that isn't five steps above everything else in power? And then... how will the established background of the Dark Angels chapter get flushed down the toilet and rewritten? Perhaps the Dark Angels are really a bunch of circus clowns now that travel from world to world looking for "the fallen" clowns from the trapeze that they lost on Galgamair XI when their chaplain was swapping tactical advice with a keeper of secrets in the break room?

Will this be the next broken optimizers list of choice? We shall see soon.

Warrior of Chaos
24-10-2012, 12:35
Bitter much Iced? LOL

We will just have to wait and see I suppose. DA are my only 40K army and I hope he treats them right, but not a the expense of making them a cheez-fest with hoodies.

Thorien
24-10-2012, 12:43
Bitter much Iced? LOL

We will just have to wait and see I suppose. DA are my only 40K army and I hope he treats them right, but not a the expense of making them a cheez-fest with hoodies.

I'll reserve judgement until I read it, which I hope is soon, because DA is my only 40k army and right now they aren't playable.

We had rumors at the end of last year and early this year that DA would be out this past April, and that the books had been seen in a warehouse somewhere. The we got the "sheets" rumor. Who knows what the heck is going on at GW.

Malagor
24-10-2012, 12:45
The Lion secretly wished he was Guilliman and wrote in his will that he wanted the dark angels to consider Guilliman as their master. The fallen are now people who disagree with this.
Also they will get a new vehicle that is oddly enough shaped like the Omega symbol.

But seriously, I rather not think about it. Feels so calm now when the 6e has settled in.
Having a codex ala crazy Ward will just screw things up and will take this quiet as a sign to relax before the storm hits.

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 12:47
Yes yes I am very bitter ;) I just fear the dark angels being turned into the new tournament sledge hammer. I liked how the chaos codex came out in terms of its balance, I honestly don't mind the necron codex minus the people spamming the flyers everywhere, I am realllllly hoping that the dark angels codex shows Ward's ability to turn it down a notch and match his peers' power levels instead of taking their books and then cranking everything to 11 in his.

I'd really ilke a 40k where all armies are viable not just a couple of builds. When everyone is running the same couple of builds, it kills it for me.

I started with Dark Angels back in the 90s and only recently sold them to a new player as I haven't played them in years and I agree they do need a decent book (they have always been the wussified chapter compared to the others that get their own book and even against the generic marine codex)... just as you noted not at the expense of making them the cheez with hoodies. Oh no. Bill Belechick reference coming online... ;) (NFL reference)

MalusCalibur
24-10-2012, 13:03
So my favourite Space Marine Chapter since the age of about 12 is being handed over to the same man who has produced nothing but tuberculotic refuse?

I think a part of me just died.

Warrior of Chaos
24-10-2012, 13:11
I will admit I am apprehensive, but I will not scorn what I haven't seen yet. Mat Ward has a rather undesireable reputation, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt. If he screws it up, then I'll grab my pitchfork.:shifty:

Aiwass
24-10-2012, 13:16
So the Dark Angels codex is supposedly up next and the author of all things unholy and silver is the author of this book. Should we expect Cypher and the Grand Master of the Dark Angels to really be BFFs from childhood, exchanging battlfield stories while one upping Draigo and sticking colonoscopy bags on a trio of bloodthirsters while lulzing? Will their unique flyer be as cheap and spammed as the night scythes? Which unit do you feel will be spammed to hell and back or do you think it will be multiple units this time around?

My guess is that either the bikers or the deathwing terminators are going to be jacked up in unholy power and dropped in points to make perfect cookie-cutter netlists. Either that or dark angels tactical marines will drop in points and receive a free plasma cannon upgrade. Those sound fairly reasonable right? Better yet, the new librarian powers. Mr. Ward can paruse the sweet fantasy spell lists and come up with some gems like an imitation of Pit of Shades or Purple Sun or the 13th spell! That would be pretty cool and epic for the win. Librarian walks up to any unit he wants, casts the 13th spell of Dark Angels Awesome and 4D6 of your models turn into little monklets with no save of any kind allowed. He should cost about 50 points too. And be an elite that you can take three of to fill one slot. That sounds about balanced to me.

What do you think? Will dark green become the new silver or do you think the man has the capability to actually write something that isn't five steps above everything else in power? And then... how will the established background of the Dark Angels chapter get flushed down the toilet and rewritten? Perhaps the Dark Angels are really a bunch of circus clowns now that travel from world to world looking for "the fallen" clowns from the trapeze that they lost on Galgamair XI when their chaplain was swapping tactical advice with a keeper of secrets in the break room?

Will this be the next broken optimizers list of choice? We shall see soon.

It is a shame that I can't sig your whole post :(

Konovalev
24-10-2012, 13:44
The ward bandwagon again? This is going to be good.

Individual8580
24-10-2012, 13:44
The rumours were pointing towards Ward anyway, weren't they? Let's take a look at the BA and GK codecii and forget all about power levels, absurd fluff and silly names.

What they basically have is:
- Non-scout/tactical scoring units
- Flyers
- Ton of unique characters
- Special marine units (Sang guard, Death Company, the umphteen variants of GKs)
- More-powerful-than-average Dreads or dread-likes

What the DA rumours have been promising us:
- Death&Ravenwing scoring without HQs
- Flyer(s)
- Ton of characters
- Rumoured Inner Circle & Brother-Interrogators, maybe even Jetbikes
- AA-Dreads & Mortis Dreads

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Mr.Sparkle
24-10-2012, 13:48
I am already working on the fluff reasons for why I run my blood angels as dark angels.

Scammel
24-10-2012, 13:50
So my favourite Space Marine Chapter since the age of about 12 is being handed over to the same man who has produced nothing but tuberculotic refuse?

8th ed Fantasy is widely regarded to be the most fun and balanced the system's been in years. As long as he shows the same restraint evidenced by him and others in almost all 8th publications and the CSM book, this could be a brilliant codex.

dean
24-10-2012, 13:50
Should we expect Cypher and the Grand Master of the Dark Angels to really be BFFs from childhood, exchanging battlfield stories while one upping Draigo and sticking colonoscopy bags on a trio of bloodthirsters while lulzing?


Well, to be fair... the audiodrama "The Grey Angel" puts Lord Cypher squarely in the loyalist camp. My personal opinion (from before the HH Fallen Angels books) is that Cypher is a loyalist "office" not an individual's name and is used to draw Fallen in for capture and to keep the =I= and the high lords looking elsewhere.

DarthMcBob
24-10-2012, 13:55
New Rule:

Lament of the Fallen: Roll a d6. On a 1+, skip your turn, as you stand around thinking about how you will never be an Ultramarine.

MalusCalibur
24-10-2012, 13:57
8th ed Fantasy is widely regarded to be the most fun and balanced the system's been in years. As long as he shows the same restraint evidenced by him and others in almost all 8th publications and the CSM book, this could be a brilliant codex.

I disagree wholeheartedly, considering 8th Ed Fantasy to be a dreadful amalgamation of badly designed, thoroughly unenjoyable rules and overtly random elements, with the army book balance being just as poor as always. But this is not the place for that discussion.

The rules don't really concern me in either case, since I don't play GW's current games - what is far greater my worry is that the background of the Dark Angels will meet the same treatment the Blood Angels and Grey Knights received, and some atrociously designed new models will be added to the range with superb rules to sell themselves, including the now ubiquitous large flyer kit. Probably a Storm Wagtail, or something.

blackcherry
24-10-2012, 14:09
I am already working on the fluff reasons for why I run my blood angels as dark angels.
It appears I've found a brother in sarcasm :yes:

Scammel
24-10-2012, 14:14
I disagree wholeheartedly, considering 8th Ed Fantasy to be a dreadful amalgamation of badly designed, thoroughly unenjoyable rules and overtly random elements, with the army book balance being just as poor as always. But this is not the place for that discussion.

It might as well be, if we're talking about Ward's work. I think I can honestly say that you're in a small minority in regards to not liking 8th itself, but I can at least understand why you might think that. How you think the balance isn't utterly above and beyond that of 7th is much more challenging for me to comprehend.

Konovalev
24-10-2012, 14:16
my worry is that the background of the Dark Angels will meet the same treatment the Blood Angels and Grey Knights received, and some atrociously designed new models will be added to the range with superb rules to sell themselves, including the now ubiquitous large flyer kit. Probably a Storm Wagtail, or something.

Because Codex Wolfy Woof Wolf Marines with their wolf armor wolf guns wolf necklaces wolf banners wolf hats riding wolf squirrels was any better? Not to mention they have marines with the rare and legendary ability to shoot different things than their squadmates.

Also Cruddace: Valkyries/Vendettas, Tyranid codex. Nuff said.

MalusCalibur
24-10-2012, 14:36
I think I can honestly say that you're in a small minority in regards to not liking 8th itself, but I can at least understand why you might think that. How you think the balance isn't utterly above and beyond that of 7th is much more challenging for me to comprehend.

From my own observations I'd say the split is closer to 50/50 than you're suggesting. As for balance, don't forget that Ward is the one who broke 7th in the first place, or that GW's games are not designed with balance in mind. Maybe it's slightly better right now than the end of 7th was, I don't know. I have no interest. If so it's incidental, not intentional, and sooner or later, there will be *that* army book that so outshines all others that it will create the same atmosphere of 'we need a new edition to fix this!' - precisely what GW will want, so they'll far more easily be able to sell it.
Anyway, I'm digressing.



Because Codex Wolfy Woof Wolf Marines with their wolf armor wolf guns wolf necklaces wolf banners wolf hats riding wolf squirrels was any better? Not to mention they have marines with the rare and legendary ability to shoot different things than their squadmates.

Also Cruddace: Valkyries/Vendettas, Tyranid codex. Nuff said.

Worry ye not, I'm all too ready to agree; I'm of the opinion that there are currently no Army Book/Codex writers who can create truly great work. Ward is merely the greater of several evils in that regard since his restraint is almost nonexistant, especially when it comes to background material; the trash he spews is astonishing.

Antipathy
24-10-2012, 14:40
Being fair, his Codex Space Marines and 8th Edition Fantasy are well written.

Vaktathi
24-10-2012, 14:51
I'm guessing DA's will out of nowhere become a plasma-spam chapter simply based on their 3E ability to take plasma cannons in tac squads where it was unique for exactly 1 edition but everyone else could take them in RT/2E/4E/5E. We'll get terminators with plasma weapons, a predator with the IG Executioner turret and likely plasma cannon sponsons, plasma toting bikes, possibly Jetbikes contrary to all post-Rogue Trader fluff, lots of stupid naming conventions, possibly army-wide Stubborn, and some yet another silly chibi-flyer but with lots of plasma weapons and possibly plasma "dark" missiles, and perhaps some special rules for hating the witch and wearing monk robes over armor and whatnot.




Because Codex Wolfy Woof Wolf Marines with their wolf armor wolf guns wolf necklaces wolf banners wolf hats riding wolf squirrels was any better? Not to mention they have marines with the rare and legendary ability to shoot different things than their squadmates.

Also Cruddace: Valkyries/Vendettas, Tyranid codex. Nuff said.
To be fair, with Kelly, the SW book's "wolfy wolf woflness" is an out-of-the-ordinary work for him, his other books don't have the same issues. With Ward, all of his books are similarly nauseating with respect to naming conventions and fluff. Cruddace meanwhile has bonked as many new models as he's pushed, like deathstrikes/leman russ variants, pyrovores, etc.

Konovalev
24-10-2012, 14:53
his restraint is almost nonexistant

I don't disagree but I'd prefer a ward codex to a cruddace one any day of the week. So on the brighter side of things at least it's ward rumored to be writing DA not cruddace.

loveless
24-10-2012, 14:53
Ward's largest offense has been his Saturday-Morning-Cartoon-style of fiction writing. His rules have never really bothered me - internally, none of the options presented in his books are "avoid at all cost" or even "auto-include" (my perspective, YMMV).

It seems, though, that he's a big fan of "turn it up to 11" (as is Kelly in some respects, though his latest book feels tamer), which isn't followed through by some of the other designers. Imperial Guard is a book stuffed full of options that are never worth taking and the Tyranids are shadows of their former selves. I'd happily trade either book for a Ward or Kelly version.

In Fantasy, they gave Ward reign over the Core rules (and I don't think they've given him any Army Books in this edition) - it's an interesting result. Some of the most powerful options are available to the majority of armies. This core set has inspired some pretty great Army Books as well (background aside, the 8th Edition Vampire Counts book has the best ruleset for the army IMO) - there isn't an 8th edition book I wouldn't play (monetary costs and old models stand in my way in several cases).

In other words - let Ward design the business district and the buildings that others build in it make the entire area more appealing. Let Ward just design a building and you'll get one that looks good on the interior, but stands out like a sore thumb in the district.

Vaktathi
24-10-2012, 15:12
Ward's largest offense has been his Saturday-Morning-Cartoon-style of fiction writing. His rules have never really bothered me - internally, none of the options presented in his books are "avoid at all cost" or even "auto-include" (my perspective, YMMV). His internal balance is usually rather good (Vulkan being the only SM HQ I saw for the first year after the C:SM release notwithstanding...) However he tends to put in lots of stuff that either feels pulled from out of nowhere (everyone can now take dreads everywhere all the time!), is overdone and/or in an entirely inappropriate FoC slots (BA vehicles, especially Baal preds having Scout and being in FA slots), or is just very gimmicky (GK's/Necrons), or in some cases, all of them (Stormlord).

Now granted he's not the only one guilty of this, but with other authors it's nowhere near as consistent.

Col. Dash
24-10-2012, 16:15
Oh and since Ward wrote it, everything will have Dark in it. Dark Missiles on the Dark Death Fighter(and its twin linked dark plasma cannon). Storm bolters with the addition of a one shot plasma gun on the terminators as standard. Dark Executioner turret on a Predator which somehow has a dark shroud. Dark Stinger Missiles as a dev squad AA upgrade for missile launchers.

I wonder if we will get the option for two twin linked assault cannon on dreads, its the Double Dark Dreadnought. Only the most depressed and emo marines are entombed in this dreadnought to live out their dark and depressed lives forever or die trying. I had a dreadnought in my old BA army like that. He only joined for college money and hated his life but had a sense of duty so he tried to go out in a blaze of glory. Tech marines brought him back because of his honorable service and he tries to gloriously get himself killed every battle to end it and the tech marines wont let him. The big bull's eye he has painted on his sarcophagi was a badge of honor according to the tech marines.

That aside I am looking forward to seeing the new dex, I doubt I will build an army since I already have a Night Wing, an ever growing SM army, plus my regular Night Lords, and Tau, but the flyer might win me over. I am a sucker for cool flying machines.

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 16:31
Oh and since Ward wrote it, everything will have Dark in it. Dark Missiles on the Dark Death Fighter(and its twin linked dark plasma cannon). Storm bolters with the addition of a one shot plasma gun on the terminators as standard. Dark Executioner turret on a Predator which somehow has a dark shroud. Dark Stinger Missiles as a dev squad AA upgrade for missile launchers.

I wonder if we will get the option for two twin linked assault cannon on dreads, its the Double Dark Dreadnought. Only the most depressed and emo marines are entombed in this dreadnought to live out their dark and depressed lives forever or die trying. I had a dreadnought in my old BA army like that. He only joined for college money and hated his life but had a sense of duty so he tried to go out in a blaze of glory. Tech marines brought him back because of his honorable service and he tries to gloriously get himself killed every battle to end it and the tech marines wont let him. The big bull's eye he has painted on his sarcophagi was a badge of honor according to the tech marines.

That aside I am looking forward to seeing the new dex, I doubt I will build an army since I already have a Night Wing, an ever growing SM army, plus my regular Night Lords, and Tau, but the flyer might win me over. I am a sucker for cool flying machines.

Don't forget it will only cost 75 points or so for all of that. And be fieldable as an elite or a heavy. With the option to put anti air rules on its twin linked assault cannons which will also have rend all the time rerollable. Because its dark.

loveless
24-10-2012, 16:32
Oh and since Ward wrote it, everything will have Dark in it. Dark Missiles on the Dark Death Fighter(and its twin linked dark plasma cannon). Storm bolters with the addition of a one shot plasma gun on the terminators as standard. Dark Executioner turret on a Predator which somehow has a dark shroud. Dark Stinger Missiles as a dev squad AA upgrade for missile launchers.


Well, Ward isn't the only one guilty of that. Look at WolfPhil KellyWolf.

Ozendorph
24-10-2012, 16:36
I think I'll wait to actually read the book before bashing its (alleged) author. I do hope the DA finally get an opportunity to stand at the same level as their various Astartes peers, with some unique and interesting options. I love my Angels, but in terms of rules they're the "cream base" marines that makes "vanilla" seem outrageously flavorful

Konovalev
24-10-2012, 16:44
Don't forget it will only cost 75 points or so for all of that. And be fieldable as an elite or a heavy. With the option to put anti air rules on its twin linked assault cannons which will also have rend all the time rerollable. Because its dark.

And as an imperial codex, all units will come frag and krak grenades. As the latest marine codex, the tactical squads will cost 11pts per marine and come with plasma guns rather than bolters and an armywide special rule that removes gets hot. There will also be a large flier with a vulcan megabolter that can transport dreadnoughts that may fire as embarked passengers.

Not to be outdone by furry marines all Dark angel units will be able to split fire and ride animals with ambigious, or rather intentionally secretive appearences.
Likewise all DA vehicles may move 6" further than normal, and all character type models confer FNP to DA units(but not allies).

For 5 points DA units may also purchase an upgrade to "cold plasma" which increases the strength of plasma weapons by +1, and for 1pt/model "Dark Mystery" grenades thrown during the assault phase reduce enemy models to a miserable little pile of secrets.

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 16:46
That's genius. Riding secret animals. They can be models of something covered by sheets and have plasma guns strapped onto them.


I think I'll wait to actually read the book before bashing its (alleged) author. I do hope the DA finally get an opportunity to stand at the same level as their various Astartes peers, with some unique and interesting options. I love my Angels, but in terms of rules they're the "cream base" marines that makes "vanilla" seem outrageously flavorful

The bad of that is to let the DA stand at the same level of the space wolves and grey knights and to an extent the blood angels (the lesser of the big three), they would need jacked up many levels higher than the new chaos codex.

Col. Dash
24-10-2012, 16:52
I was going to say, if they are indeed dropping power levels like Fantasy and the new chaos codex, the new DA codex needs to be on par with chaos, not the earlier power dexes.

Cold plasma? Im sold. Meet my new Night Lords. lol

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 16:54
If the new Dark Angels codex is anything like the new chaos codex then I will decree a golden age for 40k because the balance of the chaos codex is good both internal and out and has a variety of decent builds but nothing over the top. It would be a golden age because it would be a Mat Ward codex that wasn't written 5x higher than the highest current book. Or blacker than the blackest black times infinity (~Nathan Explosion)

Arbedark
24-10-2012, 16:54
Well isn't this thread absolutely full of highly original and hilarious content?

Murphey
24-10-2012, 17:03
First off, to all Dark Angels players out there: I'm very, very sorry. I'm sorry because your fluff is going to be retconned with all the care and forethought of a drunk slaughterhouse worker. I'm sorry because your army is going to be so ridiculously overpowered that people who don't know a thing about dark angels are going to start playing your codex just to win, and you'll have to deal with them regurgitating the Matt Ward tripe every time you see them.

Secondly, to anyone who thinks Ward isn't a bad writer: understand that one of the very fish things ward did when he started writing 40k codices is to retcon the ultramarines into "never making pointless last stands", the army in which 95% of of their fluff is pointless last stands, and gave them a special rule so they could always run away.

There is zero excuse for this guys writing, terrible balancing of his codices, or the fact that he's still employed at Gw.

Scammel
24-10-2012, 17:20
gave them a special rule so they could always run away.


Heaven forbid Tactical Marines could be tactical.

Daedalus81
24-10-2012, 17:25
So if the DA book turns out balanced to CSM what are you going to do with your time?

Scaryscarymushroom
24-10-2012, 17:28
Oh goody! A thread that lets me put my stamp of (dis)approval on current codex authors!

@Mat Ward. Disapprove.
I don't care much for Ward's rules in terms of how they affect actual gameplay mechanics or the way players make decisions. The rules aren't completely boring, but they aren't particularly creative or interesting. Ward's treatment of fluff is a very sad thing. However my biggest issue with Ward's writing is balance issues. I disagree with loveless about the power-level stuff. Codex GK is not internally balanced. There are definitely some units that are more powerful per point than others. Not only that, but it isn't externally balanced either. Ward's writing cheapens every other army at the time of release. I fully expect other armies to catch up to GK, some of them have already. But writing like Mat Ward's is what creates needless and absurd power creep in the first place, and it expedites the need for new codices.

@Robin Cruddace. Disapprove.
Robin Cruddace's rules also have balance issues. But in Cruddace's case, it seems to be all about *not keeping up with writers like Mat Ward!* :eek: In the case of Cruddace's writing, there are really annoying internal balance problems. Take the Tyranid codex, for example. It takes absolutely no time whatsoever to determine that spinefists are a waste of points, that the Doom is a 'No-Brainer' (pun intended) and that 'fexes, pyrovores, and rippers are a cut below the rest of the book.

Other than that, it seems that Cruddace likes to stick with "oldies, but goodies." With the exception of the IG order system, his rules are incredibly uninspired. Like stealing the poison mechanic from fantasy for tyranid gargoyles, or (generally speaking) implementing a 'faith point generation' system similar to a certain video game. :shifty: But the rules are still fun, if you really try and enjoy them. He does little more than is absolutely necessary to make an army functional (see Guard infantry re: kill points). I will never forgive Cruddace for what he did (and didn't do) to Sisters of Battle.

@Phil Kelly. Approve.
A wolf by any other name is just as wulfen. Word choice aside, Phil Kelly manages to write relatively well balanced army lists that actually involve creative rules that hit at core gameplay mechanics (lone wolves for instance). Dark Eldar and Space Wolves are the only two codices from 5th edition that I would consider worth buying, both of which he wrote. I have only briefly looked through the CSM book and was not thoroughly impressed, but hearing that the CSM codex is both balanced internally and externally doesn't surprise me considering Phil Kelly wrote it.

Ozendorph
24-10-2012, 17:38
The bad of that is to let the DA stand at the same level of the space wolves and grey knights and to an extent the blood angels (the lesser of the big three), they would need jacked up many levels higher than the new chaos codex.

It'd be worth it just to watch people lose their damn minds on this forum ;). Besides, who cares about power levels? We all know there's no place for competition in 40K. A crazy-powerful codex will serve to create a compelling narrative about stoic, hooded giants pounding the snot out of <insert your favorite army> while fighting off the effects of brainleaf fronds, and probably killing an Avatar in an undignified manner.

insectum7
24-10-2012, 17:38
So if the DA book turns out balanced to CSM what are you going to do with your time?

Ha! Seriously. Such vitriol.

To be honest, my two codexes are SM and Necron, and they're both pretty solid.

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 17:39
It'd be worth it just to watch people lose their damn minds on this forum ;). Besides, who cares about power levels? We all know there's no place for competition in 40K. A crazy-powerful codex will serve to create a compelling narrative about stoic, hooded giants pounding the snot out of <insert your favorite army> while fighting off the effects of brainleaf fronds, and probably killing an Avatar in an undignified manner.

Don't forget about triple-teaming the aforementioned in the OP trio of bloodthirsters.

Vaktathi
24-10-2012, 17:48
@Phil Kelly. Approve.
A wolf by any other name is just as wulfen. Word choice aside, Phil Kelly manages to write relatively well balanced army lists that actually involve creative rules that hit at core gameplay mechanics (lone wolves for instance). Dark Eldar and Space Wolves are the only two codices from 5th edition that I would consider worth buying, both of which he wrote. I have only briefly looked through the CSM book and was not thoroughly impressed, but hearing that the CSM codex is both balanced internally and externally doesn't surprise me considering Phil Kelly wrote it.I'd agree on DE, but SW's? I'd say they're actually some of his worst work. Awful internal balance (very few people bother with -"claw" units, stuff like vindicators, etc often just saw GH's, Long Fangs, and Rune Priests over and over) and external balance (GH's plainly superior to tac equivalents in both cost effectiveness and absolute senses), huge min/max issues, overloading on special rules for their own sake, etc.

Also, the CSM book has some notable internal balance issues, playing Tzeentch is *very* punitive for example, land raiders and defilers got bumped in cost when they were already mostly thought overcosted, possessed/spawn/dreads are still very much poor even with some changes, etc.

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 17:53
I will say: the other night I saw a game featuring 2000 pts of Thousand Sons with the new codex (pair of sorcerer lords, three units of thousand sons, tzeentch terminators, dread, helldrake, few other things) taking on 2000 pts of Blood Angels, and the Thousand Sons won. The Blood Angel force wasn't particularly powergamed IMO (it had three dreads in it) but it came down to the AP3 bolters tearing holes in his squads which did a lot of damage.

I don't think Tzeentch is as gimp as the internet makes it out to be. They are definitely not an I WIN button but the internet makes them out to be horrible and I am not seeing that at all.

Havarel
24-10-2012, 17:55
Hell, after the damp squib of the CSM codex I'd like a 'turn everything to 11' Ward codex!

Vaktathi
24-10-2012, 17:56
They're overspecialized. If they're playing against a power armored force without much in the way of tanks, they'll be brilliant. If they're playing against hordes, terminators, or tanks, then they've got issues.

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 17:59
They're overspecialized. If they're playing against a power armored force without much in the way of tanks, they'll be brilliant. If they're playing against hordes, terminators, or tanks, then they've got issues.

Hordes I can definitely see (we don't have many horde players here). He had enough anti-tank and terminator weapons though. The Blood Angel terminator squad was taken down to a trio of dudesmen before it finally got to charge (granted those three terminators carved a large hole in a squad and a half before they died)

wyvirn
24-10-2012, 18:06
Oh boy! I haven't seen an antiWard thread in months!

I think Ward has been pointed to as the author as every codex and fantasy book since 2010 or so. I wouldn't put too much money on it so early in the rumor stage.

Scaryscarymushroom
24-10-2012, 18:16
Oh boy! I haven't seen an antiWard thread in months!

I think Ward has been pointed to as the author as every codex and fantasy book since 2010 or so. I wouldn't put too much money on it so early in the rumor stage.

Ward has written quite a few of them. 4/9 makes him more productive than any other codex author for 5th edition. Granted, that's not saying much when there are only 3 authors and 9 books.

If Dark Angels are coming out any time soon, it's most likely gonna be either Ward or Cruddace. And neither prospect is good. :shifty:

@Vaktathi

OK, I admit I cast the Space Wolf book in a pretty positive light when in fact it had some serious issues. It's still my 2nd favorite 5th edition codex next to Dark Eldar. :shifty:

I mean, seriously. Let's count absurd things:

BA: Deep Striking Land Raiders. Er. I mean, Blood striking Blood Raiders.
GK: Everything.
Tyranids: Useless (except for the Doom & Pregnant 'fexes.)
IG: ... I have no complaints here actually. Maybe this would be book #3 for me, except that the idea of collecting guard infantry scares me. (expensive.)
SoB: Just as limited as Witch Hunters, but less tactically flexible.
Necrons: Scarab Swarms and Mindshackle whats-its.
SM: The fluff.
DE: ... What's wrong here? There are some minor internal balance issues, but nowhere near as striking as other books.
SW: Long Fangs, Super-troops and Scary JotWW. And Wolfy Wolf Wolves riding giant wolves (actually pretty cool imo) with Wolf Runes, Wolf claws, Wolf pelts, and Wolf beards on their Wolf faces.

Evil_Toast
24-10-2012, 19:05
Ward has written quite a few of them. 4/9 makes him more productive than any other codex author for 5th edition. Granted, that's not saying much when there are only 3 authors.

I mean, seriously. Let's count absurd things:

BA: Deep Striking Land Raiders. Er. I mean, Blood striking Blood Raiders.
GK: Everything.
Tyranids: Useless (except for the Doom & Pregnant 'fexes.)
IG: ... I have no complaints here actually. Maybe this would be book #3 for me, except that the idea of collecting guard infantry scares me. (expensive.)
SoB: Just as limited as Witch Hunters, but less tactically flexible.
Necrons: Scarab Swarms and Mindshackle whats-its.
SM: The fluff.
DE: ... What's wrong here? There are some minor internal balance issues, but nowhere near as striking as other books.
SW: Long Fangs, Super-troops and Scary JotWW. And Wolfy Wolf Wolves riding giant wolves (actually pretty cool imo) with Wolf Runes, Wolf claws, Wolf pelts, and Wolf beards on their Wolf faces.

Lets add some more 5th ed edition stuff . 6th is still to young .

BA - Pay a small pitance to give your entire army FNP . Flying Librarian Dreds :wtf: . The Deamon Prince Mephiston , what the hell is he doing with T6 ? And my favourite , BLOODstrike Missiles :eyebrows: .
Tyranids - Not going to add more here , I don't think kicking people in the groin when their on the ground already is much fun . But for a race known to be capable of evolving in the space of a single day , why the hell was the Swarmlord written into the Macragge background ? Couldn't he have appeared recently and done something awesome to someone new ?
IG - Meltavets a good codex does not make . Chimera's with 5 firepoints to to cover the 6 Lasgun ports is just plain idiotic . Heavy Weapon Teams . Half the LRBT variants . Deathstrike Launcher in 40K . Ogryns . Stormtroopers costing as much as a Tac Marine , due to their bowel loosening S3 AP3 disco lights .
SM - In hindsight , the SM fluff is actually not that bad . Simply because Ward was given more Marine codices to write later , and like an overexcited puppy , went and pee'd uncontrollably everywhere . After all , whats more believable , Calgar getting mangled taking on an Avatar or Draigo walking up to Mortarion and using his heart as a etch-a-sketch ?
DE - I like the book myself . Just Vect's entry reads like a Cartoon Villian biography . And Mandrakes , love the fluff , love the models , but on the table they really are not hot at all .
SW - Add " We hate Psykers with all our heart and soul and want to kill them all because their evil and stuff so we'll take 4 Rune Priest's with us because their , like , totally not Psykers and stuff . " Or something . :eyebrows: .

I'm waiting with baited breath for the DA release . If it can be written in the same way as the Chaos codex then 6th will be alright for me . If it follows last editions pattern of a Codex Creep Arms Race then guess it's Dust time .

The_Klobb_Maniac
24-10-2012, 19:11
Dark Angel ManBear Squad 80 pts
S5 T5 A3 LD10 3+

4 ManBears
1 ManBearPig

PlasmaBolters as standard. Add Dark cloaks to blame codex balance on global warming.

Xerkics
24-10-2012, 19:17
I think you guys are overreacting. I dont see how he can top fluff he wrote for Draigo who is already stronger than a primarch. Im sure GW staffers read forums and they know that community thinks that Wards fluff is silly. Im confident next codex will be more tame. Also regarding Phil Kelly i thought the SW fluff was ok.

tu33y
24-10-2012, 19:27
@thorien; dude you mad? the Current DA code is still very current in our group. its old but its still powerful.

im keen to see what ward does, I HOPE he has calmed down a bit but who knows? im expecting super powerful but expensive characters, lots of invulnerable saves and FNP.... the usual Ward stupidity

Scaryscarymushroom
24-10-2012, 19:34
Dark Angel ManBear Squad 80 pts
S5 T5 A3 LD10 3+

4 ManBears
1 ManBearPig

PlasmaBolters as standard. Add Dark cloaks to blame codex balance on global warming.

Why stop there?
Special rules:
Dark Favor - Dark Angel ManBears take leadership tests with 1d6.

:cheese:

IcedCrow
24-10-2012, 19:51
Why stop there?
Special rules:
Dark Favor - Dark Angel ManBears take leadership tests with 1d6.

:cheese:

50 point artefact - Gateway to Imagination Land - transports ManBearPig and any enemy unit he's in contact with to ImaginationLand, so long as the player that controls ManbearPig states that Kurt Russel is in the unit. No saves of any type allowed, the units are in essence gone forever. Into your imagination. Where they meet up with Draigo who is currently dryhumping Magnus' eye sockets while simultaneously mule-kicking Fulgrim and then gorrila pressing Angron while ressurecting the spirit of Horus back to life and killing him over and over again.

For the lulz of course.

The_Klobb_Maniac
24-10-2012, 20:10
50 point artefact - Gateway to Imagination Land - transports ManBearPig and any enemy unit he's in contact with to ImaginationLand, so long as the player that controls ManbearPig states that Kurt Russel is in the unit. No saves of any type allowed, the units are in essence gone forever. Into your imagination. Where they meet up with Draigo who is currently dryhumping Magnus' eye sockets while simultaneously mule-kicking Fulgrim and then gorrila pressing Angron while ressurecting the spirit of Horus back to life and killing him over and over again.

For the lulz of course.

lol..

"Gateway to Imagination Land - Once per (player) turn you may remove a unit from the game however you wish. Use your imagination..."

[Designers Note: We stopped trying a long time ago..]

Thorien
24-10-2012, 20:24
@thorien; dude you mad? the Current DA code is still very current in our group. its old but its still powerful.

im keen to see what ward does, I HOPE he has calmed down a bit but who knows? im expecting super powerful but expensive characters, lots of invulnerable saves and FNP.... the usual Ward stupidity

Have you been following the DW tactica? We're getting Pwnd, no AA no air power. I've finally saved the dough to put an army together and now I'm stopped, mainly due to the probable new CML rule. (and please don't suggest allies. Not gonna happen. )

Aiwass
24-10-2012, 20:43
Aegis Defence line with quad, maybe?

TheDungen
24-10-2012, 20:43
So if the DA book turns out balanced to CSM what are you going to do with your time?

Dying to everything that isnt CSM i guess?

That said this could be agood thing the HH books made the lion to weak/bad/other negative adjective. Well now Mat Ward is going to write about him. He'll be an inspiring leader who actually saved the emperor but then covered it up so that chaos wouldn't know that the emperor was still alive.

well it cant be worse than the HH portayal of him.

Fear Itself
24-10-2012, 20:48
possessed/spawn/dreads are still very much poor even with some changes, etc.

Possessed aren't terrible- just overpriced. Which is the case with many things in the codex.

Spawn are actually pretty incredible now, and cheap at that. I've used a five-man squad with MoN in two games, and had them be an incredible tar-pit unit. Overall, they're a great way to force my enemy to focus on something other than my advancing marines.

And as for hellbrutes, well, they're just as mediocre as all dreadnoughts have become now.


Now, with that being said, I'll allow you all to get back to your incredibly witty ramblings about Dark Missiles, and how Ward abused you as children.

AlphariusOmegon20
24-10-2012, 20:50
So the Dark Angels codex is supposedly up next and the author of all things unholy and silver is the author of this book. Should we expect Cypher and the Grand Master of the Dark Angels to really be BFFs from childhood, exchanging battlfield stories while one upping Draigo and sticking colonoscopy bags on a trio of bloodthirsters while lulzing? Will their unique flyer be as cheap and spammed as the night scythes? Which unit do you feel will be spammed to hell and back or do you think it will be multiple units this time around?

My guess is that either the bikers or the deathwing terminators are going to be jacked up in unholy power and dropped in points to make perfect cookie-cutter netlists. Either that or dark angels tactical marines will drop in points and receive a free plasma cannon upgrade. Those sound fairly reasonable right? Better yet, the new librarian powers. Mr. Ward can paruse the sweet fantasy spell lists and come up with some gems like an imitation of Pit of Shades or Purple Sun or the 13th spell! That would be pretty cool and epic for the win. Librarian walks up to any unit he wants, casts the 13th spell of Dark Angels Awesome and 4D6 of your models turn into little monklets with no save of any kind allowed. He should cost about 50 points too. And be an elite that you can take three of to fill one slot. That sounds about balanced to me.

What do you think? Will dark green become the new silver or do you think the man has the capability to actually write something that isn't five steps above everything else in power? And then... how will the established background of the Dark Angels chapter get flushed down the toilet and rewritten? Perhaps the Dark Angels are really a bunch of circus clowns now that travel from world to world looking for "the fallen" clowns from the trapeze that they lost on Galgamair XI when their chaplain was swapping tactical advice with a keeper of secrets in the break room?

Will this be the next broken optimizers list of choice? We shall see soon.

LOL This +1.



So my favourite Space Marine Chapter since the age of about 12 is being handed over to the same man who has produced nothing but tuberculotic refuse?

I think a part of me just died.

I so wish I had the room to quote this in my sig....

althathir
24-10-2012, 20:51
I'd agree on DE, but SW's? I'd say they're actually some of his worst work. Awful internal balance (very few people bother with -"claw" units, stuff like vindicators, etc often just saw GH's, Long Fangs, and Rune Priests over and over) and external balance (GH's plainly superior to tac equivalents in both cost effectiveness and absolute senses), huge min/max issues, overloading on special rules for their own sake, etc.

Also, the CSM book has some notable internal balance issues, playing Tzeentch is *very* punitive for example, land raiders and defilers got bumped in cost when they were already mostly thought overcosted, possessed/spawn/dreads are still very much poor even with some changes, etc.


I think a lot of that "awful" internal balance was on purpose. Kelly has always struck me as a codex writer that comes up with several builds that he thinks represents that fraction, and makes them work. I don't think he wanted wolf bikers or assault marines to be good, cause those units are identified much stronger with other chapters. He wanted the armies to built around grey hunters or wolf guard with long fangs being a key part. I think he did overreach on rune priests would've been better with the current defense and more limited powers.

That and listing vindicators is kinda of unfair cause 1 main weapon tanks were very unpopular during 5th for everyone.


LeSW - Add " We hate Psykers with all our heart and soul and want to kill them all because their evil and stuff so we'll take 4 Rune Priest's with us because their , like , totally not Psykers and stuff . " Or something . :eyebrows: .

I'm waiting with baited breath for the DA release . If it can be written in the same way as the Chaos codex then 6th will be alright for me . If it follows last editions pattern of a Codex Creep Arms Race then guess it's Dust time .

In all fairness fluffwise that fits with most space wolf BL stuff.


Dark Angel ManBear Squad 80 pts
S5 T5 A3 LD10 3+

4 ManBears
1 ManBearPig

PlasmaBolters as standard. Add Dark cloaks to blame codex balance on global warming.

In my super cearal opinion that unit is overpowered

AlphariusOmegon20
24-10-2012, 20:55
8th ed Fantasy is widely regarded to be the most fun and balanced the system's been in years. As long as he shows the same restraint evidenced by him and others in almost all 8th publications and the CSM book, this could be a brilliant codex.

I personally think 8th was so well done, IN SPITE OF Ward. Just take a look at all the :wtf:'s from when 6th came out. I personally believe he had far, far more influence over how 6th ended up than he did 8th.


I disagree wholeheartedly, considering 8th Ed Fantasy to be a dreadful amalgamation of badly designed, thoroughly unenjoyable rules and overtly random elements, with the army book balance being just as poor as always.

The problems with 8th have little to do with the basic rules, it's with the power creep and design process involving the Army Books themselves.

Israfael
24-10-2012, 21:00
Have we really gotten to the point where people are trash-talking Ward codices before they're even released? :eyebrows:

I'm not Ward apologist, mind you, but this is getting a bit absurd.

Vaktathi
24-10-2012, 21:12
Have we really gotten to the point where people are trash-talking Ward codices before they're even released? :eyebrows:

I'm not Ward apologist, mind you, but this is getting a bit absurd.
True, but it's not like it hasn't been earned to at least some degree. :p It'd be fun to check back in a few months and see how accurate some of these things turned out to be and how off others were.

Cheeslord
24-10-2012, 21:22
Ward-denial is soon to become a crime in all European countries...

seriously, although I never plan to collect and space marines (with the possible exception of chaos sometime in the future, but the new codex has slowed down my enthusiasm a bit), I think the power level of the next SM codex will be critical for setting the game balance for years. It will either match to CSM and we will have an age of low power creep, but with the super codices already printed being more popular than new ones, or it will go the the grey knights power level and we will have crazy imbalance, with probably every other Xeno codex, and every single marine codex, pushing the power envelope.

Mark.

The_Klobb_Maniac
24-10-2012, 22:12
In my super cearal opinion that unit is overpowered
I'm taking cloaks, so I'm blaming it on global warming :D

Evil_Toast
24-10-2012, 22:18
Then , to balance this all out , I propose we start a campaign to get Ward to give all DA the following army wide ruling .

Due to them all wearing pretty dresses , any Template incl Torrent , Melta and Soul Blaze weapon inflicts a -1T penalty on the DA models . For 2pts/model , their dresses can be upgraded to be asbestos lined .

Scaryscarymushroom
24-10-2012, 22:25
For 2pts/model , their dresses can be upgraded to be asbestos lined .

Which means they (and any models in base contact with them) need to pass a toughness test every turn or else die of lung cancer. :p (unless of course the models in base contact are ultramarines, who are immune to cancer.)

Private_SeeD
24-10-2012, 22:30
I'm a DA fanboy, I'll admit that it makes me sad that Ward looks to be written the codex, but I'm in two minds... I know he'll slaughter the fluff but that will be a sacrifice that will give use an army with somewhat balanced/goofy named units. Again this will sound selfish but I would rather a codex that has some teeth unlike the nids who got shafted.


Sent from my Omni tool via the Sol System Mass Relay

Souleater
24-10-2012, 22:35
The background can be ignored and re-written. Imbalanced rules are more of a problem.

Xerkics
24-10-2012, 22:40
I think he actually done a very good job with the SM codex mechanically if you ignore how he butchered the fluff, so i wouldnt mind him doing the sm codex again since i dont see what else he can do to it that he hasnt already done fluff wise that could be worse.

Malagor
24-10-2012, 22:53
I think he actually done a very good job with the SM codex mechanically if you ignore how he butchered the fluff, so i wouldnt mind him doing the sm codex again since i dont see what else he can do to it that he hasnt already done fluff wise that could be worse.
Yes the SM codex wasn't bad except for the fluff. I have a feeling that GW or someone told him to be careful with that hence he didn't go overboard with it, something he wasn't told when doing GK or BA.
I hope that someone tells him to keep cool when doing the 6e codexes. I want see them try to be balanced both internally and externally.
It will make for more fun games rather then 2-3 codexes that just dominates everything.

Lightning Strike!
24-10-2012, 23:09
This is going to be wasted, quickly.

AlphariusOmegon20
25-10-2012, 00:14
The background can be ignored and re-written. Imbalanced rules are more of a problem.

Umm, no because the fluff is what draws you to an army in the FIRST PLACE. If the Fluff is naff, then you'll view the army the same way, for bad or good.

Konovalev
25-10-2012, 02:35
Have we really gotten to the point where people are trash-talking Ward codices before they're even released? :eyebrows:

I'm not Ward apologist, mind you, but this is getting a bit absurd.

Why think when you can just hop the bandwagon and get patted on the shoulder by the rest of the non-thinkers?

Col. Dash
25-10-2012, 02:41
I want Ward fired and Icedcrow to write the codex. Then I will use the rules for Emperors Children because it fits the fluff better.

Putty
25-10-2012, 02:42
I like Matt Ward codices. They are solid codices that can last the test of time.

I am not exactly a fan of how he writes the fluff but then again, I never gave a crap about GW fluff anyways.

I have always rated him and Phil Kelly as solid codex writers. Vetock is also a good armybook writer but he has yet to feature a codex under his belt.

I read that Cruddace is heading the Tau project. I wish all Tau collectors / players the best of luck. =P

Inquisitor Aaron
25-10-2012, 02:46
Well looks like it's about that time we drag out the old dead ward horse and beat it some more... :shifty:

big squig
25-10-2012, 03:40
I can't wait for ravenguard with 3+FnP, psychic powers that don't count as psychic powers but use the psychic powers rules, wrist mounted poison grenade launchers, swords that summon angels of fallen marines to fight for them, and bikes with wings so they can fly over terrain while pooping land mines.

Sparowl
25-10-2012, 03:57
Being fair, his Codex Space Marines and 8th Edition Fantasy are well written.

Ah, sarcasm. I love it.


I think I'll wait to actually read the book before bashing its (alleged) author.

Why? Let's just follow his track record and assume he won't magically change.


I personally think 8th was so well done, IN SPITE OF Ward. Just take a look at all the :wtf:'s from when 6th came out. I personally believe he had far, far more influence over how 6th ended up than he did 8th.

Because his army book work in fantasy obviously was top tier. By that I mean, all of his codexs were the top tier of power. Daemons by themselves broke fantasy for awhile.


True, but it's not like it hasn't been earned to at least some degree. :p It'd be fun to check back in a few months and see how accurate some of these things turned out to be and how off others were.

:)


Well looks like it's about that time we drag out the old dead ward horse and beat it some more... :shifty:

If only it would FINALLY DIE. By which i mean Ward's writing career, not the topic.

DietDolphin
25-10-2012, 04:36
I have to admit this thread made me laugh, especially the secret (shhhh) animals and this:

I am already working on the fluff reasons for why I run my blood angels as dark angels.

Quick everybody, Hop on the bandwagon! It will leave without you! Choo! Choo!

MajorWesJanson
25-10-2012, 05:09
Well isn't this thread absolutely full of highly original and hilarious content?

I've reached the point of hoping that all these trite Ward-hating and author-hating posts will just hit critical mass and implode into a black hole, sucking the Ward hate out of the rest of the forum.

Rules-wise, Ward books tend to have a few things that are odd, like Deepstriking land raiders or Vulkan, or the naff Brotherhood champion, but otherwise just about every unit in those books can be taken without chuckles. Codex: SM's biggest losers are LotD, Vanguard Vets, and Devastators who simply need a price adjustment to work. Especially in 6th, there are a lot of builds that work rather well. Blood Angels actually improved with 6th, as FNP and Furious charge both got toned down, and rage boosted, making Death Company better. Grey Knights main issues could be fixed with the removal or limitation of some of the grenades, and maybe a few adjustments to the henchmen squads. Brotherhood champion needs a lot of work though. Necrons main advantage right now is Necron-Air, which got a boost with 6th edition, but as fliers become more normalized by players and books, that will go from a dominating build to merely a gimmick build.

Chem-Dog
25-10-2012, 06:00
I'd like to know how much freedom the writers have with a Codex, how much interaction there is between the Author of any one book and his contemporaries and how much of the content of a Codex is decided by the corporate aspect of the company.

I mean, when you're handed the brief for your next assignment as a Rules Development team member, does it include instructions to include X number of "New" units? Are you showed new units and simply told "make this fit in"? or are you left to construct your vision of X faction?
And when working on the assignment, are you free to bounce ideas off of other members of the team or are they all busy on other assignments?

From an outside view it seems very much like they are handed an list of instructions (Do's and Don'ts) and a deadline, if/when stuff sometimes comes out wonky perhaps you're seeing a reflection of that lack of creative freedom and the conflict of a true hobby enthusiast who has to do things to an army that he would never consider if given free reign, rather than simple ineptitude.

I've tried writing rules for stuff, I'm sure most of us have, and it seems easy right up until you have to decide exactly how something is supposed to work and that's without my boss telling me I have to find room for a unit of Marines riding War Sedans carried by a team of WitD or that I somehow have to explain why Deathwing can now use power Armour and like to ride to battle in chariots or some other nonsense.


At the very least, it seems that GW are largely content with what the writers are producing, so perhaps it's the company the vitriol should be aimed at, rather than the writers. After all, is it fair to assume that Mat Ward is free to defile the background as he sees fit when Messrs Abnett, Dembski-Bowden and McNeil seem to have to attend regular briefings to ensure they don't break the Horus Heresy?

Or are we to assume a large part of Alan Merret's role as "Defender of the Intellectual Property" is actually dedicated to fending off attacks from the dreaded C.S. Goto-monster?

Nazrax
25-10-2012, 06:45
I'd like to know how much freedom the writers have with a Codex, how much interaction there is between the Author of any one book and his contemporaries and how much of the content of a Codex is decided by the corporate aspect of the company.

I mean, when you're handed the brief for your next assignment as a Rules Development team member, does it include instructions to include X number of "New" units? Are you showed new units and simply told "make this fit in"? or are you left to construct your vision of X faction?
And when working on the assignment, are you free to bounce ideas off of other members of the team or are they all busy on other assignments?

From an outside view it seems very much like they are handed an list of instructions (Do's and Don'ts) and a deadline, if/when stuff sometimes comes out wonky perhaps you're seeing a reflection of that lack of creative freedom and the conflict of a true hobby enthusiast who has to do things to an army that he would never consider if given free reign, rather than simple ineptitude.

I've tried writing rules for stuff, I'm sure most of us have, and it seems easy right up until you have to decide exactly how something is supposed to work and that's without my boss telling me I have to find room for a unit of Marines riding War Sedans carried by a team of WitD or that I somehow have to explain why Deathwing can now use power Armour and like to ride to battle in chariots or some other nonsense.


At the very least, it seems that GW are largely content with what the writers are producing, so perhaps it's the company the vitriol should be aimed at, rather than the writers. After all, is it fair to assume that Mat Ward is free to defile the background as he sees fit when Messrs Abnett, Dembski-Bowden and McNeil seem to have to attend regular briefings to ensure they don't break the Horus Heresy?

Or are we to assume a large part of Alan Merret's role as "Defender of the Intellectual Property" is actually dedicated to fending off attacks from the dreaded C.S. Goto-monster?

Well said.

I too have wondered just how much freedom and collaboration the writers are allowed. I can't imagine that they just get a few nebulous statements about a given armybook/codex and then sent off to watch D&D cartoons and smoke some Maui wowie while tossing darts with monkeys to pick army fluff and special rules.

Now that said I dislike ward for the most part but I believe that he is capable of writing a decent codex/armybook.(I think the necron rules wise-aside from the Cron-Air-is actually not bad. The fluff however IMO is unforgivable.)

I am enjoying the wild hyperbole and pure unadulterated hate and malice this thread has. I am getting quite a few laughs reading this( imaginationLand rule is a riot-now someone get us a king lollipop special character!)

Azulthar
25-10-2012, 08:00
Mat Ward codices are usually fun, when it comes to all the different lists you can make with them.

That's the one positive thing I can say about them. I usually like playing Devil's Advocate and go against the popular opinion, but I'm just not too crazy about Mat Ward's codices when it comes to fluff. Not sure whether this is entirely his fault though, maybe his hands are tied by higher-ups.

DietDolphin
25-10-2012, 10:03
At the very least, it seems that GW are largely content with what the writers are producing, so perhaps it's the company the vitriol should be aimed at, rather than the writers. After all, is it fair to assume that Mat Ward is free to defile the background as he sees fit when Messrs Abnett, Dembski-Bowden and McNeil seem to have to attend regular briefings to ensure they don't break the Horus Heresy?

The thing is, Mat Ward has never actually broken the fluff, he has just added to it or gone into further detail about something previously unexplored. While I don't like Draigo doodling on a Primarchs heart or Calgar effortlessly slapping an Avatar into next week (especially considering he probably isn't tall enough to actually reach that high..), it hasn't gone against anything already established.

The sole exception is the Necrons. I highly doubt he was the one who made the call to change an entire faction.

I think most people posting in this thread are just lampooning the ridiculousness of not only some of Mat Ward's fluff, but also the hate towards him too.


Or are we to assume a large part of Alan Merret's role as "Defender of the Intellectual Property" is actually dedicated to fending off attacks from the dreaded C.S. Goto-monster?

If only Magnus hadn't ruined the web way project! C.S Goto could have been kept at bay permanently in the warp where he belongs.

Beppo1234
25-10-2012, 10:07
What will the 'Ward: Word of the Day' be with DAs? Blood Angels got Blood everything, Wolves got Wolf everything. What will DAs get?

CrownAxe
25-10-2012, 10:11
What will the 'Ward: Word of the Day' be with DAs? Blood Angels got Blood everything, Wolves got Wolf everything. What will DAs get?
Dark everything

Aiwass
25-10-2012, 10:11
Dark everything.

Malagor
25-10-2012, 10:22
I think it will be angel everything

MagicHat
25-10-2012, 10:33
Umm, no because the fluff is what draws you to an army in the FIRST PLACE. If the Fluff is naff, then you'll view the army the same way, for bad or good.

You really don't speak for all of us.
And it is easier to convince people about the homebrewed fluff for your army then it is to convince them to use your homebrewed rules if the official one is bad.
As far as I am concerned, Souleater is correct. I will much rather have Mat Ward write a SM codex then Cruddace or Kelly (though the chaos book is better written then SW at least).

My chapter is a bunch of psychotic killers, striking as hard and fast as they can, while obsessed about keeping their failing geneseed pure. A Blood Angels army fits my vision of space marines as the Angels of Death best, so I use it.

Beppo1234
25-10-2012, 10:34
not vengeance everything?

BigbyWolf
25-10-2012, 10:45
The thing is, Mat Ward has never actually broken the fluff, he has just added to it or gone into further detail about something previously unexplored. While I don't like Draigo doodling on a Primarchs heart or Calgar effortlessly slapping an Avatar into next week (especially considering he probably isn't tall enough to actually reach that high..), it hasn't gone against anything already established.

The sole exception is the Necrons. I highly doubt he was the one who made the call to change an entire faction.

I think most people posting in this thread are just lampooning the ridiculousness of not only some of Mat Ward's fluff, but also the hate towards him too.

Well said, very close to Fact #1 of the Mat Ward Defence League:


Fact #1- Mat Ward is an employee of Games Workshop. They pay him to (amongst other things) write Armybooks/ Codices for us to use with the games we do so love. These books are not simply cranked out by Mr. Ward and placed directly on GW shelves (as some people seem to think). They are reviewed and approved by the very people that pay Ward to do his job. Instead of raging about the writer who has undoubtedly put a lot of work into these books (whether you think he’s done a good job or not is unimportant), perhaps you could direct your anger at those that actually approved the work and released it…or you could…you know…just get over it?

TheDungen
25-10-2012, 10:47
Yeah as someone said earlier they don't have free reign on rules and they don't chose the new units. So blaming Kelly for the wolf riders, is stupid cause the miniatures design team made those.

As for Cruddace i just wanted to point out that his 'warhammer armies: Empire' was a solid book.

I actuallt think they should make multi writed codices again. Place Ward Kelly and a black library writer ina group and they'll write the best codex ever. Ward does internal balance, Kelly then balances it outwards and the black library writer keeps ward away from the fluff. One should not that Ward did write the current wood elf army book for warhamemr and while he still changed a lot its a really good book. But he did co-write that.

I'd say that its as simple as the designers needs to be able to have someone to bounce ideas on full time.

Cthell
25-10-2012, 11:04
What will the 'Ward: Word of the Day' be with DAs? Blood Angels got Blood everything, Wolves got Wolf everything. What will DAs get?

"Wing"? Firewing missiles, Ironwing jetbikes, Shieldwing armour...

Col. Dash
25-10-2012, 12:32
No no, it will be Dark. Dark Missiles, Dark Shroud fields, Darker Dark Dreads, Dark Plasma, Dark Stinger Missiles. He already showed with BA that Angels wont be in every name. Now the aircraft might be a DarkWing Fighter.

Oh and Darkie dark Pattern Bolters on standard marines, first shot is dark plasma which as someone explained further up, doesnt 'Get hot'. Their Deep Dark Drop Pods also have a carrying capacity of 14 and come equiped with Dark Plasma guns as standard in place of storm bolters. They also have changed the fluff where the Dark Angels and their successors have made a deal with the Eldar for plasma missiles. Also it has been retconned that Dark Angels are the merchants of the Imperium and regularly have business transactions with xenos using a universal currency known as Gold laced latinum. They have replaced their Imperial Vows with the Dark Rules of Aquisition as well

IcedCrow
25-10-2012, 12:46
You really don't speak for all of us.
And it is easier to convince people about the homebrewed fluff for your army then it is to convince them to use your homebrewed rules if the official one is bad.
As far as I am concerned, Souleater is correct. I will much rather have Mat Ward write a SM codex then Cruddace or Kelly (though the chaos book is better written then SW at least).

My chapter is a bunch of psychotic killers, striking as hard and fast as they can, while obsessed about keeping their failing geneseed pure. A Blood Angels army fits my vision of space marines as the Angels of Death best, so I use it.

Most players would rather mat ward write their codex. They know there will be a high probability that it will be broken and that they will enjoy several years of a codex that sits at the top of the pile sledgehammering all that get within 15 feet of it.

Marshal_Loss
25-10-2012, 12:50
It saddens me to think of what he will do to the DA fluff

Xerkics
25-10-2012, 13:06
I seriously doubt that Ward had a free hand with SM codex as its their most important flagship product id expect there would be lots of oversight and testing at least for that 1 codex. What i really dont like is how Wards fluff made Sanguinis and Fulgrim look like chumps since Draigo and Calgar punked Avatars Bloosthirsters Daemon Primarchs etc like it was nothing while the Primarchs actually had to put in some efforts to achieVe the same effect It just beggars belief. His greatest crime is implying that EVERY single space marine wants to be an ultramarine. Also necron U - boats? I mean really?

dtjunkie19
25-10-2012, 13:34
I seriously doubt that Ward had a free hand with SM codex as its their most important flagship product id expect there would be lots of oversight and testing at least for that 1 codex. What i really dont like is how Wards fluff made Sanguinis and Fulgrim look like chumps since Draigo and Calgar punked Avatars Bloosthirsters Daemon Primarchs etc like it was nothing while the Primarchs actually had to put in some efforts to achieVe the same effect It just beggars belief. His greatest crime is implying that EVERY single space marine wants to be an ultramarine. Also necron U - boats? I mean really?

I don't think there is ever much testing going on in GWs codex development process.

nosebiter
25-10-2012, 13:39
It saddens me to think of what he will do to the DA fluff

Yeah it will be stomachchurningly bad, but also thighslappingly funny to read.

Expect Sameal to single handedly destroy a saim han army and kill a avatar. :eek:

And a squad of deathwing annihilate a small tyranid hive fleet while playing cards.:cries:

sninsch
25-10-2012, 13:40
Mat Ward wrote bad fluff and more or less overpowered rules. Crudance ruins whole armies(TK, Tyranids). So chose your fate.

Voss
25-10-2012, 13:48
What will the 'Ward: Word of the Day' be with DAs? Blood Angels got Blood everything, Wolves got Wolf everything. What will DAs get?
I find this amusing. Kelly did this as well with the sw codex so it is hardly unique to Ward. And from my point of view the da background has been ruined so many times it is impossible to do them any more damage.

Anyway I look forward to the book regardless of who wrote it. If it is Ward well some of his books are fairly solid and on par with his associates. I am hoping roar consistent 6th edition power levels. Freakouts can wait until after reading the book if they are necessary at all.

Shamana
25-10-2012, 14:07
New Rule:

Lament of the Fallen: Roll a d6. On a 1+, skip your turn, as you stand around thinking about how you will never be an Ultramarine.

So... sigworthy... mind if I do?

iamcjb
25-10-2012, 14:10
My prediction:

Phoenix Dark the Darkest Angel

Statline: 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 10

Phoenix is the darkest Dark Angel ever. He is so dark and cool that his armour has been painted white but still looks black.

Phoenix Dark's darkness is so powerful and dark it's believed he can close the Eye of Terror by punching it. He is also believed to be the powerful twin brother of El'Johnson, but darker and stronger in every way.

He is so powerful he once kepy an Avatar as his personal butler until one day he used his dark pistol (a pistol with the same stats as an earthshaker cannon) to kill it. When its army of Avatars came to seek revenge Phoenix killed them with his bare hands, breaking them in half, one by one.

However, he does not have the geneseed of Guilliman, so can never be a true Ultramarine.

Vaktathi
25-10-2012, 14:11
I seriously doubt that Ward had a free hand with SM codex as its their most important flagship product id expect there would be lots of oversight and testing at least for that 1 codex. He had a free enough hand with C:SM that he was able to change Land Raider and Drop Pod transport capacity without anyone noticing until it had already gone to the printers and was to late to be changed. He was told not to do that by his own admission (IIRC at GDUK 2009 or 2010) and that's why they haven't been changed in subsequent SM books despite the fact that all other wargear/vehicle changed were applied.

Given that that was possible, I'd say there's a rather clear lack of oversight and testing.

Col. Dash
25-10-2012, 14:13
I heard Pheonix Dark the Darkest Angel's tears grant immortality, a shame he has only cried once when Calgar told him he couldnt be an Ultramarine.

Shamana
25-10-2012, 14:18
New Rule:

Lament of the Fallen: Roll a d6. On a 1+, skip your turn, as you stand around thinking about how you will never be an Ultramarine.

Mmm, sigworthy. Mind if I do?


Kelly did this as well with the sw codex so it is hardly unique to Ward.

I may be biased, but didn't the "Wolf McWolfson with Wolfgear and Wolfbanner" trend of space wolf unit/wargear naming start before the 5e codex?

Vaktathi
25-10-2012, 14:21
To a degree yes it did, but got pushed over the line and almost into parody with Kelly's book. Though to be fair it's Kelly's one book where the fluff is naff, as opposed to Ward's multiple examples of oddity.

iamcjb
25-10-2012, 14:42
Not only do Phoenix Dark the Darkest Angel's tears grant immortality, but they also count as Phoenix Dark being equipped with a Plasma Cannon.

Tamwulf
25-10-2012, 14:52
As a long time Dark Angels Player (since RT days!), I'm tired of getting a weak sauce codex. I'm tired of being laughed at every time I put "Green PA in Dresses" on the table. I'm sick and tired of every unique thing that comes along for the Dark Angels, then next PA Codex gets the exact same options, and for way, way cheaper. I vomit every time a new power armor codex comes out and I compare our units and choices with what that codex gets- and see that the rules they have started with the test codex of the Dark Angels.

When the 5th Ed C:SM dropped, I stopped playing Dark Angels, and started playing Emerald Angels. And ya know what? It was great! I had Tactical Squads with great options. I had Terminator squads that could be lead by a Captain in Terminator Armor riding altogether in a Land Raider. Or deep strike onto the table with no scatter thanks to Scout Bikes. I got an Ironclad Dread! And a real Mortis Pattern Dreadnaught. I had bikes with outflank. Scouts with HB Hellfire and Camo Cloaks! The awesome Land Raider Redeemer! And oh, look at that! My special characters could join a full squad inside a drop pod! Then there is the Storm Talon.

Right now, there is nothing unique about the Dark Angels except the fluff, and that's been so watered down and glossed over that it barely resembles the fluff from the 3rd Ed days. Read the current codex and there is next to no mention as to why the Deathwing wear white, or why the Ravenwing wears black, and why do the green guys wear dresses? Seriously. You want an all Termy army? Loganwing and Draigowing both do it better. Want an all biker army? White scars- who can do it cheaper and get skilled rider/jink saves. All Scout Army? Again, look towards C:SM. What happened to the Book of Salvation? The Blades of Reason? How about Hunting the Fallen? Are you kidding me? The Sword of Secrets is a MC Relic Blade? Really? Or the Sword of Silence is a MC power sword? Why does the Master of the Deathwing not have an Iron Halo? Doesn't that kind of go against all the fluff about Company Masters and Iron Halo's? I could go on for DAYS about all the things that are wrong with C:DA.

They have been treated as a "Second Class Power Armor Army" since 3rd Edition. Honestly, I don't know why they even bothered giving us a unique codex in 5th. They could have included three characters in C:SM- Azrael- replace all units with Chapter Tactics with Stubborn. Belial- all Terminators gain Fearless and become troops choices. Sammael- All biker squads gain Skilled Rider and Outflank. BOOM. I just folded the entire C:DA into C:SM.

You know what I want? I want MECHANICAL LIONS that combine into a Dreadknight like model. I want to hear that the Inner Circle has been pulling the wool over the Imperium for the last 10,000 years, making them think that the Dark Angels follow the Codex Astrates, but in reality, the Inner Circle has changed the organization and geared the entire chapter towards one goal: Hunting down the Fallen and redeeming themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Yes, they are still "loyal" to the Imperium, but it's all about the Fallen.

I want new, unique units that come out of nowhere- like Sanguinary Guard, Thunderwolves, Dreadknights, Bloodravens, Storm Talons. I want special characters that are over the top- a Draigo, or Mephistan, or Sanguinar. I want stuff that no other Space Marine army has access to and will never get access to. I don't want to be laughed at any more when I put my green guys in dresses on the table. I want people to look at my army and say "Wow. I wish I could take Mechanical Lions in my army!".

If the price for this competitiveness on the table is that my treasured Dark Angels brofisted some Necron Lord, or that they are Best Buddies with the Dark Eldar because of something that happened in the Black Library, or that they sacrificed a bunch of Sisters of Battle and bathed in their blood, so be it. I can ignore the fluff, but I can't ignore the performance of my army on the table.

Matt Ward is the single best thing to happen to the Dark Angels Codex since 3rd Edition.

IcedCrow
25-10-2012, 14:59
Like I said, many rejoice knowing that they will get the sweet powergaming options that other codices have gotten, even if it goes over the top.

ErictheGreen
25-10-2012, 15:02
I have no problem with Kelly's fluff i the Space Wolf book. The internal balance though is horrendous.

Combine that with the copy/paste 4th edition eldar codex which essentially went "people complain too much about starcannons so we'll jack them up in price AND drop them to 2 shots. Oh, and we've sold enough vypers, we've got a new war walker model so let's make their rules far better. Oh, and they need a new psychic power, because they're the 'psyker race'. wouldn't it be funny to shout DOOOOOOM in every game? everything else is good, capiche?"

Dark Eldar is probably his best book, though I have a sneaking suspicion that it was written for 4th edition and just put out when the models were ready with little changes.

Cruddace is incredibly inconsistent. His books are categorised by poor internal balance - many tyranid choices are practically unplayable at any level above casual gaming and some are such complete no brainers that even the newbiest gamer can see they're good (see the doom). sisters of battle have precisely 1 build and their army quirk (the faith point system) doesn't really scale past 1250 points. Imperial guard is the best of the bunch, and even then, some choices are glaringly obvious in their power over others (vendetta).

I actually liked the Necron fluff. while it was such a move away from the 4th and 3rd ed stuff, it kinda needed to be because there was very little you could do with the existing fluff other than add more ctan and some more of their awakened servants. the fluff also struck me as that dry british humour that used to be common in the game. the brofisting with blood angels was an error, but i'll forgive that. The necron rules, clearly written with 6th edition in mind are internally balanced. Their power at the moment is purely due to the lack of anti air elsewhere (without forgeworld additions). It's a solid, if high powered, book.

Likewise, the space marine codex has decent internal balance. There are exceptions - vulkan (too good), vanguard (too pricy) - but it is a solid book that still holds up in 6th edition with a couple of builds.

Blood angels again, has exceptions - mephiston, the cheapness of FNP in the army, the cheapness and FOC of baals allowing 6 av13 hulls - but otherwise, all choice are viable.

Grey Knights was ruined by 2 things - the way henchmen squads were put together and psybolt dreadnoughts. to give an army with very good mid range shooting a premier long range shooting unit is pure idiocy. you take those 2 things out, and it's a pretty good book, bar the obscene fluff.

so inconsistancy (you can't use half your book in anything other than casual games), inconsistancy (half of your book is godawful and even a newb can tell), or relatively good internal balance with gradually less butchering of fluff on a decent power curve.

ward. any day of the week.

also, GW do playtest. they have at least 1 internal playtest group who are not part of the design team and they used to have a playtest group in germany, but i don't know if they still exist

Aiwass
25-10-2012, 15:04
I want new, unique units that come out of nowhere- like Sanguinary Guard, Thunderwolves, Dreadknights, Bloodravens, Storm Talons. I want special characters that are over the top- a Draigo, or Mephistan, or Sanguinar. I want stuff that no other Space Marine army has access to and will never get access to. I don't want to be laughed at any more when I put my green guys in dresses on the table. I want people to look at my army and say "Wow. I wish I could take Mechanical Lions in my army!".

You know what? If that happens, suddenly a lot of players begin to found very fluff reasons to switch their codex for the DA one. "My Night Lords are so dark that can use C: DA!" "Eh! My Raven Guard is also very dark :shifty: so fits better with the fluff. Assault troops? What do you mean? RAVENWING is obviously meant for us!" "My Ultramarines are so awesome that they just level up and have mechanical lions, too!" "Now my Dark Sororitas have a proper book! Yay!" "Those lions can easily be converted in mechanical lizards for my Salamanders, also plasma is the most hot heat stuff".

Tamwulf
25-10-2012, 15:19
You know what? If that happens, suddenly a lot of players begin to found very fluff reasons to switch their codex for the DA one. "My Night Lords are so dark that can use C: DA!" "Eh! My Raven Guard is also very dark :shifty: so fits better with the fluff. Assault troops? What do you mean? RAVENWING is obviously meant for us!" "My Ultramarines are so awesome that they just level up and have mechanical lions, too!" "Now my Dark Sororitas have a proper book! Yay!" "Those lions can easily be converted in mechanical lizards for my Salamanders, also plasma is the most hot heat stuff".

And that is a problem why? Oh, and that whole Plasma thing? One little blurb from a codex written how long ago that said something along the lines of "Dark Angels are the oldest Space Marine Chapter and have more access to older wargear such as Plasma weapons then other chapters" does not make the DA the masters of Plasma. I've never understood why people thought that. Rules wise, every other PA Army can do plasma just as well, or in some cases, better then DA and for cheaper. There is one exception: The Dark Angel Gunslinger Squad. A veteran squad where all the models have Bolt Pistols and Plasma Pistols:

155937

I'll mourn their loss in the next codex, but if I get Mechanical Lions, it won't matter.

Aiwass
25-10-2012, 15:24
And that is a problem why?

Because you say that.


I want new, unique units that come out of nowhere- like Sanguinary Guard, Thunderwolves, Dreadknights, Bloodravens, Storm Talons. I want special characters that are over the top- a Draigo, or Mephistan, or Sanguinar. I want stuff that no other Space Marine army has access to and will never get access to. I don't want to be laughed at any more when I put my green guys in dresses on the table. I want people to look at my army and say "Wow. I wish I could take Mechanical Lions in my army!".

Anyways, was just a comment in all of the fun, don't take it too seriously, like I didn't take your mechanical lions at all.

Col. Dash
25-10-2012, 15:30
I like the mechanical lions. And have them available in units of 5 which combine to make Voltr--- Dark Mega Lion! He is piloted by Darkay Derk and his crew is the Darkie Bunch.

IcedCrow
25-10-2012, 15:38
And that's a problem why?

It becomes a problem (for some) because having to face the same army list over and over again burns people out. That's the problem with poorly balanced books. The over the top ones draw everyone to it and then a huge percentage of your groups are running the same thing. Burnout leads to people dropping out. People dropping out leads to smaller groups and harder to find games, etc... it's overall not good for the game in many ways to have one or two army lists so uber powerful over everything else.

If he writes the codex and its balanced alongside the chaos codex and soon to be daemon codex, then things are great because the diversity will be encouraged instead of everyone flocking to power-army of the edition or counting-as the power-army of the edition.

Vaktathi
25-10-2012, 15:39
Stuff about mechanical lions and lots of angst/envy

Honestly, it sounds like you want a complete ret-con of a faction that otherwise has always been a very codex-adherent chapter (aside from the way it deploys it's first company and bike company) into something it has never been or even hinted at being.

At that point, it's an entirely new faction, and I can think of a whole lot of other things that would be more deserving and a lot more interesting as a new faction for the game.

Tamwulf
25-10-2012, 15:50
@Aiwass- Nah, I don't take it seriously at all.

The Mechanical Lions is more an euphemism, or idea about what the next Dark Angels Codex could and should have. This is a fantastic opportunity by GW to give players a truly unique codex organized in a completely different manner from any previous power armor Codex. For example, you can field the Dark Angles that the Imperium thinks exists. A Company Master, a couple tactical squads, some Deathwing, maybe a Ravenwing squad... or you can take the Inner Circle force, that unlocks an elite unit of Brother-Interrogators armed with Blades of Reason, and the special rule "Hunt the Fallen". That rule is basically a table like the Chaos Boon Table. Instead of making a model better, it would add additional objectives for the Dark Angel's player to achieve during the game. By using the Inner Circle, it changes the Force Org chart for the Dark Angels, opening up a host of new units/rules... and of course there would be draw backs, like maybe points increase, or a very rigid force org chart where you MUST take this unit, this unit, and this unit, and nothing else. Perhaps one where the Inner Circle force has the game objectives changed for the Dark Angels player, but they remain the same for his opponent.

One thing Matt Ward always has in his Codex is a unit hinted at from some older fluff, and then an entirely new unit that he has to create new fluff for (ala Sanguinary Guard, the Sanguinor, or Draigo and the Dreadknight). He doesn't shy away or doesn't seem to be concerned about retconning fluff to suit his codex. In other words, he is open to new ideas and directions, and isn't trapped in the dogma of GW. I can speculate more on that, but that's not the point. The point is that if GW has one codex author that can radically overhaul an army, it's Matt Ward.

Tamwulf
25-10-2012, 16:18
It sounds like I'm arguing for an overpowered Codex, but I'm not. I want to see the competitiveness of the Dark Angels increased, yes. IMHO, they are a joke right now. I'd like to see our special characters be, well, more special and more in line with the level of the special characters out there now. I'd like to see some points costs adjusted, and some more options added (mortis Dreads, Land Raider Redeemer, 12-man Drop Pods, Storm Talon, Sternguard, Vanguard). The problem is, if the Dark Angels get all that, then what makes them different from Codex: Space Marines? Why not just fold them into the Space Marine codex? I don't want that, and from what I'm seeing here, no one else wants that. Yet to maintain a separate codex, it has to be unique.


Honestly, it sounds like you want a complete ret-con of a faction that otherwise has always been a very codex-adherent chapter (aside from the way it deploys it's first company and bike company) into something it has never been or even hinted at being.

At that point, it's an entirely new faction, and I can think of a whole lot of other things that would be more deserving and a lot more interesting as a new faction for the game.

Very Codex-adherent chapter? They don't have a Chapter Master- they have an Inner Circle that leads the Dark Angels. They have the entire first company in tactical dreadnaught armor called "The Deathwing" that wears non-standard codex colors, deploys in a non-codex manner (deathwing assault), and can be armed in a very non-codex astartes fashion (mix and match models within Terminator Squads). They have the Ravenwing- an organization far, far outside of codex Astartes. Again, an entire company on bikes, wearing non-standard codex colors, organized in a different fashion from the rest of the Chapter. The fluff has supported on more than one occasion that the Dark Angels are hiding something from the Imperium. They are always reluctant to answer a summons, and they always pursue some objective that only the Dark Angels know. I would say the Dark Angels are probably the least adherent Space Marine Chapter in the Imperium- that includes the Space Wolves!

The Inner Circle has been a part of the Dark Angels from day 1. The way the Dark Angels deals with other space marine chapters and the Imperium in general has always been in a guarded, secretive manner. It's not that much of a stretch to believe that the Inner Circle has been fooling the Imperium for over 10,000 years, and will go to any length to keep it's secrets. The new Dark Angels codex could basically be two Codex in one: The "Astartes" organization that the Inner Circle shows the Imperium, with it's Greenwing, Deathwing, and Ravenwing. Then the "True Dark Angels" with the Inner Circle, and a completely different force organization and the obsession with Hunting the Fallen.

Spam armies- that's going to happen no matter what. There is too much net listing, too much metagame thinking, and not enough playing of the game. I don't know what to say, except if a local player continues to play the exact same list over and over and over again, they why play them? Going to a tournament? Well, that's the way it is. You go to a tournament to win and have fun. Some people want to win more then have fun, and some want to have more fun then win. There is no way you will ever balance this out unless you make every player play the exact same lists- then it'll be more about the player and his dice then his army. No thanks. Right now, the only "competitive build" for the Dark Angels is the Deathwing. Even that's been crippled by 6th Edition and the reserve rule. You can try to play Ravenwing... and Greenwing is so frustrating to play, that it's a "why bother".

Yes, I am arguing for a completely different style and organization of a Codex. It's 6th Edition, GW has shook everything up, trying to make 40K more narrative, more like playing a story on the table. What better way to do that then a completely different kind of Power Armor Codex?

wyvirn
25-10-2012, 16:24
100 Imperial Creds says that a mechanical lion will be in the next wave of rumors.

Blinder
25-10-2012, 16:27
The problem with all the "opportunities for new and wondrous things" is that they generally entail "new and obnoxious rules," which circumvent core mechanics. It's one of the reasons ATSKNF is so inane- army-wide "don't worry about that part of the rulebook." It's also one of the reasons GK and Necrons are so widely scorned: the power level is one thing, but the *way* they are powerful is oftentimes by sidestepping the system everyone else has to play under which is just un-fun for the poor sap on the other side of the table. It isn't just Ward, but he seems to go "above and beyond" when it comes to being annoying, and seems to be the author who most often writes stuff that is good because of how it prevents the other player from taking actions (rather than because of how well it mitigates those actions).

Kelly seems pretty good about trying to portray a faction, allow a variety of themes, and not go *way* over the top (with a notable "oops" for wolves). Cruddace seems somewhat similar but always seems to have a "cool idea gone way too far," at the expense of a lot of the rest but at least he seems to try... though I think he is a bit too firmly in the "beer and pretzels" camp... or maybe just the "narrative games" camp, leading to a lot of stuff that can't do it's thing unless both players want to see what happens and a lot of things that are ok in isolation but stupidly easy to take WAY too far (like Vendettas).

Ward... seems to like to make the army fit his latest "great idea" for cool abilities that let you bend whatever part of the game he currently hates his opponent having a go at over your knee.

What does this have to do with DA? I have no idea, because we haven't seen what's actually coming along... but I can allow folks to express a little apprehension that things are about to go from looking up to looking very dark indeed. It does annoy me that nobody at GW seems to be stopping any of the writers and saying, "hey, maybe that's a bit iffy," though if they *are* actually policing what's going on I'd love to see what a first draft of some of this stuff looks like...

nosebiter
25-10-2012, 16:35
100 Imperial Creds says that a mechanical lion will be in the next wave of rumors.

Lionfaced bikes - Lionriders

Flyer - deathlion armed with lion missiles

Predator type - lion cannon

Lionguard elites armed with lionswords.....

You know all the usual inventive Wardian names.

Jayden63
25-10-2012, 16:41
No matter what happens with the book its probably not going to effect me in any way. I don't pay DA, I don't play against anyone who does play DA. And I seriously doubt that the 3 GK players in the area are going to jump ship, their codex is already powerful enough.

However, what a new codex will do is bring another power armored codex to the front end of the power scale. It will have some facepalming fluff and maybe even a face palm worthy unit in it or two. But it will make the army competitive again and it will be a fair fight as long as your facing off against another Ward codex. However, DA vs Tau or Eldar will be a total slaughter in favor of DA. Because that is just the nature of a Matt Ward codex.

Vaktathi
25-10-2012, 16:43
Why not just fold them into the Space Marine codex? I don't want that, and from what I'm seeing here, no one else wants that. Lots of people would like it actually, it'd make development and marketing pipeline time to either try and everything done within the span of a single edition or to put something out that isn't another Space Marine variant. :p




Very Codex-adherent chapter? They don't have a Chapter Master- they have an Inner Circle that leads the Dark Angels. So...Azrael is..what then?


Because he sounds like a Chapter Master to me.



They have the entire first company in tactical dreadnaught armor called "The Deathwing" that wears non-standard codex colors, deploys in a non-codex manner (deathwing assault), and can be armed in a very non-codex astartes fashion (mix and match models within Terminator Squads). Yes, none of which needs it's own book. colors is just paint and very few chapters stick rigidly to that kind of thing. Deathwing assault is just a one-line special deployment rule. There are plenty of Chapters under Codex: Space Marines that are far more deviant. Having a full company of terminator armor just means they're equipped to the ideal they should be unlike most chapters. really, the only non-codex thing is their deployment methodology of the first company.

Not really much to justify a distinct book here or an exceptional level of deviancy from codex-standard.



They have the Ravenwing- an organization far, far outside of codex Astartes. Again, an entire company on bikes, wearing non-standard codex colors, organized in a different fashion from the rest of the Chapter. Colors, again, are irrelevant. Essentially all they've done is swapped their 2nd and 8th companies and kept them permanently mounted on bikes. Not all that radical.


The fluff has supported on more than one occasion that the Dark Angels are hiding something from the Imperium. Along with the Space Wolves, the Blood Angels, etc.


They are always reluctant to answer a summons, and they always pursue some objective that only the Dark Angels know. I would say the Dark Angels are probably the least adherent Space Marine Chapter in the Imperium- that includes the Space Wolves! Just because they're secretive? So are the Blood Angels and Space Wolves and Iron Hands Minotaurs and Charcaredons and on and on. That doesn't mean they operate on the battlefield significantly differently.



The Inner Circle has been a part of the Dark Angels from day 1. And has little to do with their battlefield, and gameplay, style. It's a circle of people who know that some Dark Angels turned traitor composed of the Chapter's codex organized officers and select members. Aside from that it really does...nothing, aside from electing members to it's circle, which is to say, elects its chapter officers. Nothing to really change the way they operate as an army.



The way the Dark Angels deals with other space marine chapters and the Imperium in general has always been in a guarded, secretive manner. So do other chapters...


It's not that much of a stretch to believe that the Inner Circle has been fooling the Imperium for over 10,000 years, and will go to any length to keep it's secrets. so we're going to invent a *new* secret now?





Yes, I am arguing for a completely different style and organization of a Codex. It's 6th Edition, GW has shook everything up, trying to make 40K more narrative, more like playing a story on the table. What better way to do that then a completely different kind of Power Armor Codex?Because we've got more than half a dozen of them and established fluff for nearly two decades has them essentially as a codex chapter that's substantially less deviant than many within C:SM? :p

Essentially all we've got is a couple of companies operate differently than they do in other chapters but are otherwise equipped to Codex standards, the other companies operate to codex standards, their size is codex standard, their officers (aside from their promotion) are relatively codex standard, etc. They just use their terminator and bike units en-masse routinely instead of usually only deployed in bits alongside other companies.

That's it really. Going back all the way to 2nd edition.

Buddha777
25-10-2012, 16:52
My opinions on Matt Ward's codex writing can be summarized as follows: Awesome rules, horrible fluff.

I'd actually love it if Ward wrote every codex's rules, but god help us GW needs someone better to write the codex fluff (I actually had to put down the GK codex out of disgust when they bathed in SoB blood to purify themselves ... ya it's even more stupid summarizing it on a screen).

Col. Dash
25-10-2012, 16:53
Be wary of what you ask for when you go for new and wondrous things. We wanted Legions back and instead Chaos ended up with Power Ranger dragons and dino-bots. I still havent figured out whether to laugh or cry.

Scaryscarymushroom
25-10-2012, 17:11
Be wary of what you ask for when you go for new and wondrous things. We wanted Legions back and instead Chaos ended up with Power Ranger dragons and dino-bots. I still havent figured out whether to laugh or cry.

Laugh and cry my friend. Laugh and cry.


What will the 'Ward: Word of the Day' be with DAs? Blood Angels got Blood everything, Wolves got Wolf everything. What will DAs get?

I'm going to arbitrarily suggest that the 'Ward: Word of the day' will fly in the face of fluff and be 'Fallen!'

Xerkics
25-10-2012, 17:57
Lament of the fallen: Thats hillarious, may i recommend it only happens on a roll of 1 da are tortured and moody but not THAT moody :)

Carlosophy
25-10-2012, 19:51
I never got the Ward hate. After Fear to Tread his Blood Angels are spot on, Space Marines haven't been redone for a reason, GK are supposed to be rock hard (given their fluff) and he made Necrons into an interesting race again.

Given his penchant for raiding 2E for ideas I fully expect a return for Cypher, Bethor and Naaman. Hopefully we'll get some cool archeotech Deathwing weapons and maybe the Rapier in place of the thunderfire. A 'knights of the inner circle' power armoured Paladin-style squad would be cool and who wouldn't want Jetbikes? Having speeder ravenwing master counting as a chariot would also be neat.

Aiwass
25-10-2012, 19:57
@Carlosophy, Matt Warp is not heated (only) by the codex design and rules, some rules are fine, but some are way OTT. It is heated (mostly) because he is a fluff rapist. To me at least :D

Vaktathi
25-10-2012, 20:03
I never got the Ward hate. After Fear to Tread his Blood Angels are spot on, Space Marines haven't been redone for a reason, GK are supposed to be rock hard (given their fluff) and he made Necrons into an interesting race again.

The problem is his fluff and the gimmickyness of his rules. BA's got particularly weird. Out of nowhere suddenly BA's had more dreads with more variations than anyone else despite never really being particularly heavy in that area and little explanation, had Fast on everything (despite previously having overcharged engines as an upgrade that operated very differently for many years and wasn't always on everything), not to mention being able to field more heavy armor than any army but the Imperial Guard (which makes...very little sense), along with many units being costed lower or just being better than their equivalents in C:SM

GK being rock hard is one thing, but we have points values to balance that out, and in many instances they're just really cheap for what they do or have abilities that are just not inherently balanceable (e.g. Cleansing Flame).


Now all of GW's developers have their mistakes and detractors, nothing is perfect and you can't please everyone. Ward however has a consistent pattern of behavior and style that consistently irk a lot of players.

Charistoph
25-10-2012, 20:34
Ever stop and think that a lot of the "Wardian" nonsense may be partially attributed to the player base? When Space Wolves came out, everyone flocked to it. It was powerful. It was characterful. It was over the top. It was written by Kelly, not Ward.

The response was so great, they directed their codex writers to try to clone the golden goose. So Cruddace makes 'Nids, and Ward makes Blood Angels, trying to make them golden. BA is met with a great marketing response, so Ward gets to keep doing Space Marines...

So, we have only ourselves to blame.

IcedCrow
25-10-2012, 21:09
Grey Knights supposed to be rock hard is great.

However in the name of balance - no one wants to play a game of chess when their opponent gets to show up with six queens and you have to use the default configuration. That's not balanced nor does it make an interesting game, but that is what Mr. Ward produces unless you play up against another of his works (ward codex vs ward codex)

IcedCrow
25-10-2012, 21:14
Ever stop and think that a lot of the "Wardian" nonsense may be partially attributed to the player base? When Space Wolves came out, everyone flocked to it. It was powerful. It was characterful. It was over the top. It was written by Kelly, not Ward.

The response was so great, they directed their codex writers to try to clone the golden goose. So Cruddace makes 'Nids, and Ward makes Blood Angels, trying to make them golden. BA is met with a great marketing response, so Ward gets to keep doing Space Marines...

So, we have only ourselves to blame.

This is very true. The problem is that people have proven to flock to whatever is the most powerful for the win. If GW would actually write a set of codices balanced against each other we'd have a golden age.

Voss
25-10-2012, 21:18
The Inner Circle has been a part of the Dark Angels from day 1. The way the Dark Angels deals with other space marine chapters and the Imperium in general has always been in a guarded, secretive manner.

Incorrect. The inner circle and the 'secrets' didn't come about until mid second-edition, if not third. You're skipping the RT indistinguishable-standard-chapter era and the Native-American-tribe-as-a-chapter era. Inner circle didn't come around until chapter-as-Inquisition monks, and now is just sort of hanging out with chapter-as-crusader knights AND inquisition-monks. In between those, they randomly turned green.

MagicHat
25-10-2012, 21:30
Also necron U - boats? I mean really?

I highly doubt that Ward has anything to do with the design process of miniatures.


Out of nowhere suddenly BA's had more dreads with more variations than anyone else despite never really being particularly heavy in that area and little explanation,

They are space vampires. Of course they have the snazziest coffins availible, it is very logical:D.
Furioso dreadnoughts were in the 3d edition codex and Moriar a DC in a dreadnought.
Ultramarines have 26 dreads, Blood Angels have 31.
Ultramarines have normal, venerables and ironclads.
Blood Angels have normal, furiosos, DC dreads and the librarian.
It is not a massive change IMO.


had Fast on everything (despite previously having overcharged engines as an upgrade that operated very differently for many years and wasn't always on everything), not to mention being able to field more heavy armor than any army but the Imperial Guard (which makes...very little sense),

Fair enough on them being in Fast attack, even if I don't consider it overpowered.
But you really didn't expect the overcharged engines to change? They even explains why all the Rhino based vehicles are fast and even mentions the old overcharged enginges.


along with many units being costed lower or just being better than their equivalents in C:SM.

You can't be serious.
Hellfire/mortis dread got 5 points cheaper.
Vanguards got a whooping 10 points cheaper. Even with DoA, they are not highly sought after.
Devastators got price cuts on all their options, a trend that exists in C: CSM and SW because vanilla devastators were overpriced.
And assault marines did get a whole lot of buffs that made them actually worth taking from their Vanilla brothers.
And of course, they pay for their fast vehicles and searchlights, plus their stormshields got more expensive.
You don't seriously wish them to repeat old mistakes do you?


Grey Knights supposed to be rock hard is great.

However in the name of balance - no one wants to play a game of chess when their opponent gets to show up with six queens and you have to use the default configuration. That's not balanced nor does it make an interesting game, but that is what Mr. Ward produces unless you play up against another of his works (ward codex vs ward codex)

Imperial Guard can take on GK more then fine. Not sure about SW, DE or Tyranids yet, but I think at least SW and BA have a chance as well.

Charistoph
25-10-2012, 21:47
This is very true. The problem is that people have proven to flock to whatever is the most powerful for the win. If GW would actually write a set of codices balanced against each other we'd have a golden age.

That has more to do with GW's codex cycle than with Mat Ward... but let's also face it, GW couldn't do a process like PP's WarmaHordes, the games's just too dang big.

wyvirn
25-10-2012, 22:10
By the way, who actually said that Ward was writing the codex? I don't think SM has said it, and he is main person spearheading the leak as far as I know.

DietDolphin
25-10-2012, 22:11
The word of the day should be secret.

"Every battle the dark angel elite ride into battle on secret lions, but no one else knows this because it is a seeeecret, don't tell anyone!"

"They also make use of secret plasma, it's origin and creation are shrouded in secrecy, S7 AP2 Range:secret"

"Their greatest mystery secret is that the last 10000 years they have been secretly hunting the mysterious fallen, it is such a super secret that the keep it the secret from themselves, they have no idea what they are actually secretly doing"
Wait, that last one is actually true....

Grimdesign
25-10-2012, 22:23
Oh and since Ward wrote it, everything will have Dark in it. Dark Missiles on the Dark Death Fighter(and its twin linked dark plasma cannon). Storm bolters with the addition of a one shot plasma gun on the terminators as standard. Dark Executioner turret on a Predator which somehow has a dark shroud. Dark Stinger Missiles as a dev squad AA upgrade for missile launchers.

I wonder if we will get the option for two twin linked assault cannon on dreads, its the Double Dark Dreadnought. Only the most depressed and emo marines are entombed in this dreadnought to live out their dark and depressed lives forever or die trying. I had a dreadnought in my old BA army like that. He only joined for college money and hated his life but had a sense of duty so he tried to go out in a blaze of glory. Tech marines brought him back because of his honorable service and he tries to gloriously get himself killed every battle to end it and the tech marines wont let him. The big bull's eye he has painted on his sarcophagi was a badge of honor according to the tech marines.

That aside I am looking forward to seeing the new dex, I doubt I will build an army since I already have a Night Wing, an ever growing SM army, plus my regular Night Lords, and Tau, but the flyer might win me over. I am a sucker for cool flying machines.


now see here! I disagree on your assertion! the nomenclature will clearly be "mystery" or "secret" based just to emphasize how the dark angels are really mysterious <waggle fingers each time you say mystery>

Mystery marine with mystery upgrade
secret sauce
mysterious vehicle-of-some-sort
secret grenade
mystery cannon with secret upgrade
KFC's 11 herbs and spices


and to keep things fresh, there wont be any page numbers in the DA codex, because Dark angels are secret like that.

TheMav80
26-10-2012, 00:09
To be fair, the stupid naming thing has been around for a long time.

Ferrus Manus has metal hands and is the leader of the Iron Hands.

Corax is the leader of the Raven Guard and his last known words were "Nevermore"

I mean come on. The background has always been full of silly things like that.

Now I think Space Marines riding giant wolves is stupid. I think Wolf Claws that are lightning claws...but different! is stupid. But Canis Wolfborn is just sort of par for the course. Other wargear (wolf tail talisman, wolf tooth necklace) are just the names for the exact thing they are. It is a necklace made out of wolf teeth.

Xerkics
26-10-2012, 00:18
Well i think a lot of people will prob agree that its hard to dislike goofy space wolf stuff since its at same time kinda cool even if its silly.

Aiwass
26-10-2012, 00:19
But there are no wolves on Fenris, right? That makes me wonder about from where they get the pelts and all that.

Xerkics
26-10-2012, 00:34
But there are no wolves on Fenris, right? That makes me wonder about from where they get the pelts and all that.

Wasnt it implied in the books that Fenrisian wolves are failed space wolf aspirants?

Aiwass
26-10-2012, 00:36
That's the point :D

Scaryscarymushroom
26-10-2012, 01:39
To be fair, the stupid naming thing has been around for a long time.

Ferrus Manus has metal hands and is the leader of the Iron Hands.

Corax is the leader of the Raven Guard and his last known words were "Nevermore"

I mean come on. The background has always been full of silly things like that.


I was going to say something about how references to dead poets are just more classy than Mat Ward's writing, but then I remembered that the internet is a place where things get blown out of proportion and the old days had both good and bad fluff, just like today.

Although I still think there has been a general decline in quality. And I think there's a difference between puns and bloodstrike missiles.

DietDolphin
26-10-2012, 02:19
Ferrus Manus has metal hands and is the leader of the Iron Hands.

Corax is the leader of the Raven Guard and his last known words were "Nevermore"

It's very much implied the Iron Hands are named as such because Ferrus Manus has metal hands (ie the legion were named after their primarchs quirk in honour of him). As for the Latin names (Ferrus manus, sanginius...), well Latin is a dead language. Unless you have actually studied Latin you are not going to get the reference/translation. Same with the "nevermore" bit, you have to actually know about the poem it refers to.

The difference between then and now is that back then they were referencing things, and without knowledge of the reference you would be none the wiser. Now it's literally "blood, blood, blood" "wolf, wolf, wolf", or when it comes to the name of iron hands ships in the HH series "iron, iron, iron". It has been dumbed down and made stupidly obvious. There is no reference, it just is, unfortunately.

I'm half expecting someone in the HH books to say "Kurze is like some sort of... Bat...MAN!?!"

Half Breed
26-10-2012, 03:10
The difference between then and now is that back then they were referencing things, and without knowledge of the reference you would be none the wiser.

Not so. While it may now be less subtle, it never required a staggering intellect to pick up on the naming issues regarding Astartes codices. Just look to C:SM- storm shield, thunder hammer, whirlwind, thunderfire cannon, land speeder storm, cyclone missile launcher, storm bolter.. seeing a theme thus far?

All the Ward and Kelly books did was cut out pseudo-latin, and multiple names all regarding wolves and blood. Would the community really complain less if these books had vitae missiles, and lupus claws? Really?

I sure don't think so.

Vaktathi
26-10-2012, 03:22
To a degree, some of that's fine, but, at least with normal marine stuff, it's not the same 2 or 3 words over and over, and they aren't re-naming stuff just to use more storm-y words like BA's did with Bloodfists. There's theme, and then there's taking it too far.

TheMav80
26-10-2012, 03:22
Exactly. One of the most complained about guys is Canis Wolfborn. He is using fake Latin for his name.

Disturbed Frog
26-10-2012, 03:29
I bet he wakes the lion up and makes him cost 100 points and have stats like the FW HH primarchs.

Gutlord Grom
26-10-2012, 03:31
Exactly. One of the most complained about guys is Canis Wolfborn. He is using fake Latin for his name.
I'm fairly certain Canis is actually Latin (genus Canis, Canis minor etc). But his name translated can be interpretted as Dog Wolfborn, so there's that

DietDolphin
26-10-2012, 03:36
Not so. While it may now be less subtle, it never required a staggering intellect to pick up on the naming issues regarding Astartes codices. Just look to C:SM- storm shield, thunder hammer, whirlwind, thunderfire cannon, land speeder storm, cyclone missile launcher, storm bolter.. seeing a theme thus far?

All the Ward and Kelly books did was cut out pseudo-latin, and multiple names all regarding wolves and blood. Would the community really complain less if these books had vitae missiles, and lupus claws? Really?

I sure don't think so.

I think there's a difference between a theme, and repetition. The storm theme of a lot of marine equipment has been ok for the most part due to the variety within that theme and it wasn't present in an over saturating way, (though its starting to become repetitious with storm raven, storm hawk, storm talon...). Are you really saying that having a themed naming convention is inherently bad?

I think running themes can and should be done, but with a bit of thought, reason and sensibility. Lately it has gone too far (the blood angels codex has literally just replaced words with "blood") compared to what is a nice balance.

emptiedashtray
26-10-2012, 04:58
I am one of those who believe that 8th edition has been dumbed down terribly, and have refused to play fantasy since early 7th ended up a violent mess. Interestingly enough, the 6th edition of 40k seems to be starting off in a similar manner as 6th ed fantasy; never before have I seen such a coherent, competitive, and balanced edition of 40K. It will all come down to the codex authors tho, and I don't think we have the same level of quality of authors right now in GW as we did during 6th edition fantasy.

side thought:
6th editions = clean and precise; with a few loopholes for the prideful lawyer types to argue over (Slaanesh)
7th edition(s) = messy rotting shadow of an earlier (better) edition (Nurgle)
8th edition(s) = WE WILL GIVE YOU RULES TO CHARGE EASIER!!! CHARGE CHARGE CHARGE! (Khorne)

Perhaps we wont see a truly fantastic, golden age edition of Fantasy/40K until 10th edition (isn't that supposedly the Emperor's number?).

Chem-Dog
26-10-2012, 05:17
The thing is, Mat Ward has never actually broken the fluff

Sanguinor. Could have been a non-rank role for a Hero of the Chapter, the Blood Angels equivalent of the Ultramarine role of "Ancient, perhaps. A ceremonial link to the Legion days but instead it's some sort of good daemon made of Space Marine wishes. That or a Space Marine that was actually at the Siege of Terra.
Anyway, my point was, if Alan Merret's policing the HH authors, he's bound to give the Codexes the once-over. isn't he?


I think most people posting in this thread are just lampooning the ridiculousness of not only some of Mat Ward's fluff, but also the hate towards him too.

Without a doubt, but it's worth highlighting that fact for those who don't fit into the category of "most people posting on this thread". ;)


If only Magnus hadn't ruined the web way project! C.S Goto could have been kept at bay permanently in the warp where he belongs.

I'm inclined to believe he's the real reason the Gods teamed up against the Emperor, they had a problem (kept causing backflipping Bloodthirsters and Multilasers were manifesting everywhere) that they were just going to flush out into the physical realm and forget, but the Emperor wasn't going to let them.


Yeah as someone said earlier they don't have free reign on rules and they don't chose the new units. So blaming Kelly for the wolf riders, is stupid cause the miniatures design team made those.

The Chicken and egg are obscured here though. I can imagine both to be true at various points in time, sometimes the rules inform the mini, sometimes it's the other way round. Codex Dark Eldar release hype suggested, for example, that Jes' designs did inform Phil's writing and that the writing informed the models too. Which I why I wonder is sometimes the :wtf: units in a Codex are the ones designed ahead of official writing work has commenced, possibly using themes that are later abandoned or significantly altered and the Writers are left scratching their heads on how to insert the thing into the Army/universe.


Most players would rather mat ward write their codex. They know there will be a high probability that it will be broken and that they will enjoy several years of a codex that sits at the top of the pile sledgehammering all that get within 15 feet of it.

I don't want to play a game with an unbeatable army in it, not as either side. I'm sure others would agree with me.


As a long time Dark Angels Player (since RT days!), I'm tired of getting a weak sauce codex. I'm tired of being laughed at....

.....You know what I want? I want MECHANICAL LIONS.....

.....I want new, unique units that come out of nowhere....I want stuff that no other Space Marine army has access to and will never get access to. I don't want to be laughed at any more ... I want people to look at my army and say "Wow. I wish I could take Mechanical Lions in my army!".

Congrats, the first time ever I have seen somebody play the "In since RT" card and then go on to beg for their background to be all but obliterated in favour of propping up you game and/or ego.

Personally, I've always felt that sticking with an army through the thick and thin of the vagaries of Codex Creep and Edition Misalignment Syndrome is an endeavour worthy of praise, respect and admiration, not ridicule.



So, we have only ourselves to blame.

Never bought into an army because it's the uber number 1 winningest thing, never will. So blame everyone else if you like, but I'm not taking any flak for this. :p



Vanguards got a whooping 10 points cheaper. Even with DoA, they are not highly sought after.

Unless I missed an FAQ. Vanguards don't get DoA and they can't HI if they are accompanied by a Character. All game balance issues. Which makes them relatively unreliable and without a real portfolio in a book full of Jumping Troops, SG can drop in more reliably and can weather far more damage (and be expected to dish more out), Jump Honourguard squads offer a unit that runs with a character and can really be tailored to your target of choice and Regular Assault Squads are cheaper in bulk, don't inhabit valuable FA slots and do score objectives. Deathcompany...Does anyone give them JP's?


That has more to do with GW's codex cycle than with Mat Ward... but let's also face it, GW couldn't do a process like PP's WarmaHordes, the games's just too dang big.

They could if they really tried. The3rd Ed BRB did it (admittedly by generating the most stripped down army lists imaginable). I think the problem is that GW's business analysis tell them that planned obsolescence will keep the money rolling in.


But there are no wolves on Fenris, right?

More, I think, an acknowledgement by the speaker, that the Space Wolves are far from the feral beasts they allowed themselves to be perceived as, rather than a sweeping evaluation of Fenris' Taxonomy. ;)



I'm half expecting someone in the HH books to say "Kurze is like some sort of... Bat...MAN!?!"

I place money on it being Ultramarine Legionary Ro'man :shifty:



All the Ward and Kelly books did was cut out pseudo-latin, and multiple names all regarding wolves and blood. Would the community really complain less if these books had vitae missiles, and lupus claws? Really?

Were Bloodfists necessary? It works exactly like a DCCW (or like a Powerfist) did it need it's own name? Bloodstrike Missiles, could have been called Thunderstrikes, would have been in line with the storm related naming convention AND swerved another superfluous use of the B word.
Wolf Tail Talisman could have simply been a Blessed Talisman, a Hunt Trophy or a pack Honour something like that, Why not make the Wolf Tooth Talisman a Kraken tooth talisman? They have those on Fenris y'know. Wolf Claws, I don't understand the need to differentiate them from regular Lightning Claws, why not make it an army wide capability to use an established weapon differently rather than having an identical weapon named differently and then having different properties.



I think running themes can and should be done, but with a bit of thought, reason and sensibility.

The last best example of a good naming convention I can think of is Tau Vehicles, the odd one out being the Sky Ray, which is a stupid name, Star Mackerel would have been less dumb, or Space Shark....oh, wait....

OgreBattle
26-10-2012, 05:57
But there are no wolves on Fenris, right? That makes me wonder about from where they get the pelts and all that.
Space wolves shave and ride each other. The canis helix must also have a sex-change or lactation factor, as it's said Canis Wolfborn was weaned by a she-space wolf.

DietDolphin
26-10-2012, 05:58
Sanguinor. Could have been a non-rank role for a Hero of the Chapter, the Blood Angels equivalent of the Ultramarine role of "Ancient, perhaps. A ceremonial link to the Legion days but instead it's some sort of good daemon made of Space Marine wishes. That or a Space Marine that was actually at the Siege of Terra.
Anyway, my point was, if Alan Merret's policing the HH authors, he's bound to give the Codexes the once-over. isn't he?

I agree that the sanguinor should have been a non-role rank kinda like the Emperor's Champion, but the Sanguinor's current story still doesn't go against any pre-established fluff, so it didn't technically break it in anyway. More like a jump the shark moment (note:I am currently preparing a noose to hang my self from after defending the Sanguinor's existence).

I think Alan Merrets job is to stop anyone outside GW from destroying the background. Black Library authors aren't really employees of GW. If this is correct it does make you wonder who is keeping an eye on things (it sure isnt an eldar avatar, thats for sure). Though at the current rate of decline in codex background, he won't have much "intellectual" property left to protect.




Without a doubt, but it's worth highlighting that fact for those who don't fit into the category of "most people posting on this thread". ;)

How does that quote go again... "If intelligent people pretend to be idiots for too long, actual idiots will think they are in like minded company"


I'm inclined to believe he's the real reason the Gods teamed up against the Emperor, they had a problem (kept causing backflipping Bloodthirsters and Multilasers were manifesting everywhere) that they were just going to flush out into the physical realm and forget, but the Emperor wasn't going to let them.

It's only got worse 10000 yrs later, Now they have to deal with backflipping, multilasering Draigos playing arts and crafts with their primarch's hearts.


The last best example of a good naming convention I can think of is Tau Vehicles, the odd one out being the Sky Ray, which is a stupid name, Star Mackerel would have been less dumb, or Space Shark....oh, wait....

It's a play on sting ray (or manta ray). Though I think they should have just stuck with either of those names.

OgreBattle
26-10-2012, 06:12
Mat Ward's fluff is fun to read though.

On the Grey Knights... they are MORALLY GREY. That's the point, it is a play on the idea of WHITE KNIGHTS and BLACK KNIGHTS. The GREY Knights are Both. They serve a higher cause, to save the Imperium they will bear the sacrifice of the few. That's what the Imperium is all about. They use sorcery, it is straight up sorcery, it's contradictory and they're suppose to be the purest of the pure. And despite their super-heroics, chapter master Samurai Jack and Justicar Jesus Christ, they cannot defeat Chaos. It says straight up in their codex they cannot win. Chaos is eternal. All they can do is struggle. That is heroism.

The Tomb Kings in SPAAACE Necrons are fantastic. He injected personality into the most sterile, boring faction in 40k.
All of their special characters have a great deal of personality and their unique insanities
"though our individual afflictions take different forms, we will eventually all be lost to madness"

Trazyn the infinite's letter to Inquisitor Valeria was humorous and fitting of the setting.

"I am not capricious nor given to cruel acts for their own sakes. It is simply a fact that you and your kind have tresspassed and thus invited extermination. Curse you for putting me to this inconvenience"
-Anrakyr the Traveller to Tau Ethereal Aun'Taniel prior to the Harvest of Ka'mais

That is genuinely funny and fits the 40k setting. The Necrons have this strange sense of humor that is of immortals to the minute mortal lifeforms beneath them. It is a refreshing change from FOR DE EMPRAH and KILL MAIM BURN

and my favorite
"I have slain gods, toppled empires and destroyed entire worlds. Compared to this, your meagre death will likely go unnoticed in history, but do not despair little hero -I shall always remember this moment"
-Anrakyr the Traveller

A line like that just encompasses the immortal nature of the Necrons and how they view the galaxy so perfectly. They are not daemons or saviors, they just are.

Stonerhino
26-10-2012, 07:12
To a degree, some of that's fine, but, at least with normal marine stuff, it's not the same 2 or 3 words over and over, and they aren't re-naming stuff just to use more storm-y words like BA's did with Bloodfists. There's theme, and then there's taking it too far.Would you have prefered "Blood Angel's patern Dreadnaught close combat fist" over "Bloodfist"??? And its not just renaming for the sake of renaming. So far the only dreadnaughts to need to differentiate what ccws they have are BAs. So to avoid confusion they just gave the BAs two different weapons that can be equiped.

Flogger
26-10-2012, 08:06
8th ed Fantasy is widely regarded to be the most fun and balanced the system's been in years. As long as he shows the same restraint evidenced by him and others in almost all 8th publications and the CSM book, this could be a brilliant codex.

Hear hear! Or +1 as the kids say nowadays..

Nubl0
26-10-2012, 08:21
It will be fine, I just hope hes got better with the naming conventions. I cant wait for my captain or whatever to be equipped with a dark sword and dark shield while riding on his dark lion of vengeance with built in dark strike missiles.

MagicHat
26-10-2012, 08:46
Unless I missed an FAQ. Vanguards don't get DoA and they can't HI if they are accompanied by a Character. All game balance issues. Which makes them relatively unreliable and without a real portfolio in a book full of Jumping Troops, SG can drop in more reliably and can weather far more damage (and be expected to dish more out), Jump Honourguard squads offer a unit that runs with a character and can really be tailored to your target of choice and Regular Assault Squads are cheaper in bulk, don't inhabit valuable FA slots and do score objectives. Deathcompany...Does anyone give them JP's?

Any BA with a jump pack has DoA, check out the armoury entry.
Vanguards are still not that popular. They can jump down and tie up a scary shooty squad to save you from some shooting and that is it.

Thorien
26-10-2012, 11:52
There is little point fussing about something that has probably been in the can for nearly a year. I'm not going to bash the codex until I see something written in it that deserves it.

IcedCrow
26-10-2012, 12:33
I don't want to play a game with an unbeatable army in it, not as either side. I'm sure others would agree with me.

I'm sure many would. But the vast majority I talk with and interact with on internet forums will flat out tell you they want a codex that is as powerful as GK and SW so that it can "compete" against them and are excited at the prospect of Mr. Ward writing the Dark Angels since of any of the current authors, the odds of it being overpowered are high with him writing it (and thus giving them a codex capable of being as broken as the GK or SW can be)

x-esiv-4c
26-10-2012, 13:40
Expect DA terminators to be 'Fexed.

Havarel
26-10-2012, 14:03
This. I'd rather have an overpowered or powerful codex to work with so that I can still assemble a reasonably competitive list against the likes of GK and BA without having to run a cookie-cutter optimised net list.

I stopped using Chaos in the last codex after being repeatedly curb-stomped by BA if I didn't spam plague marines, daemon Princes and obliterators. I've not used the new CSM codex against BA yet but I'm not optimistic.

As long as I can use most of the units in the codex without shooting myself in the foot by not taking a default unit/build I'll be happy. I want a game vs GK/BA/SW to be a game, not a fight for survival.

Ecclesiarch
26-10-2012, 14:22
So my favourite Space Marine Chapter since the age of about 12 is being handed over to the same man who has produced nothing but tuberculotic refuse?

I think a part of me just died.

I second this heartache

Charistoph
26-10-2012, 14:29
Never bought into an army because it's the uber number 1 winningest thing, never will. So blame everyone else if you like, but I'm not taking any flak for this. :p

Other than the codices, and a couple Assault Marines for Raptors, neither have I.


They could if they really tried. The3rd Ed BRB did it (admittedly by generating the most stripped down army lists imaginable). I think the problem is that GW's business analysis tell them that planned obsolescence will keep the money rolling in.

Yeah, I'd rather NOT go back to that level of codex, if we could. And I'd imagine they'd loose a few customers that way, too.


The last best example of a good naming convention I can think of is Tau Vehicles, the odd one out being the Sky Ray, which is a stupid name, Star Mackerel would have been less dumb, or Space Shark....oh, wait....

Sky Ray makes sense to me, but that was a Forgeworld name, not an original codex unit.

Spiney Norman
26-10-2012, 14:32
This. I'd rather have an overpowered or powerful codex to work with so that I can still assemble a reasonably competitive list against the likes of GK and BA without having to run a cookie-cutter optimised net list.

I stopped using Chaos in the last codex after being repeatedly curb-stomped by BA if I didn't spam plague marines, daemon Princes and obliterators. I've not used the new CSM codex against BA yet but I'm not optimistic.

As long as I can use most of the units in the codex without shooting myself in the foot by not taking a default unit/build I'll be happy. I want a game vs GK/BA/SW to be a game, not a fight for survival.

There is some truth to this statement, at least an overpowered DA codex would be a significant change of gear for an army that has been solidly on the back foot for the last, what 3 editions?

I think we can at least be sure that Mat Ward + Space marine codex will not be under powered, which has always historically been DA's problem. Of course if you play the game for the fluff, be prepared for a cataclysmic disappointment.

loveless
26-10-2012, 14:33
Expect DA terminators to be 'Fexed.

Oh, surely it won't be that bad :p

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
26-10-2012, 14:37
or do you think the man has the capability to actually write something that isn't five steps above everything else in power?
Sisters of Battle. Or maybe I'm just blinded to their true power level.

A.T.
26-10-2012, 14:41
Sisters of Battle. Or maybe I'm just blinded to their true power level.He probably just got credit for the henchmen entry.

Scaryscarymushroom
26-10-2012, 14:42
They could if they really tried. The3rd Ed BRB did it (admittedly by generating the most stripped down army lists imaginable).

They did that literally to make the game playable though. Not to improve an already "usable" army.

EDIT: pretty sure SoB was cruddace, for which the low power level would be unsurprising.

BigbyWolf
26-10-2012, 14:43
There is little point fussing about something that has probably been in the can for nearly a year. I'm not going to bash the codex until I see something written in it that deserves it.

But...but...that would be a grown-up way of looking at things?! :eek:

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
26-10-2012, 14:53
He probably just got credit for the henchmen entry.
No, I think he also did the special characters :p. Celestine and Uriah are viciously overpowered.

EDIT: pretty sure SoB was cruddace, for which the low power level would be unsurprising.
Both are credited, I don't know who did what.

Daedalus81
26-10-2012, 14:55
This. I'd rather have an overpowered or powerful codex to work with so that I can still assemble a reasonably competitive list against the likes of GK and BA without having to run a cookie-cutter optimised net list.


So you'd rather abandon efforts to balance in lieu of actually using your brain. Cool.


Also Ward has not shown any restraint in writing 8th Ed Fantasy army books because to my knowledge he has not written one yet (O&G & OK: Vetock, TK & Emp: Crud, VC: Kelly)

The whole corporate stance has changed with 8th. They've been putting out FAQs even out of cycle with army books. The one they just made some pretty large changes. 40k doesn't have the trend that 8th does yet and it could still be screwed up, but i'm optimistic.

Col. Dash
26-10-2012, 14:59
I second this heartache

Why?The Death Slap Missiles are going to be l33T! You guys will get Death Spank Missiles for your dev squads or at a minimum Death Plasma for your plasma cannons that enable AA fire. I dont see what you guys are complaining about. Death Wing will all be 3W models with a 3++ rerollable. I dont think you guys should be worried at all.

Spiney Norman
26-10-2012, 15:25
No, I think he also did the special characters :p. Celestine and Uriah are viciously overpowered.

Both are credited, I don't know who did what.

It was my understanding that Ward was responsible for the fluff and Cruddace did the rules part, part of GW's new strategy of getting all staff to work to their weaknesses.

Fortunately there wasn't enough space for Mat Ward to do a total wreck job on the SoB fluff, aside from a couple of ridiculous stories about a Canoness killing a hive tyrant on her own and a Seraphim Superior that killed an entire eldar army it was pretty tame stuff.

Aiwass
26-10-2012, 16:00
part of GW's new strategy of getting all staff to work to their weaknesses.

That's gold.

A.T.
26-10-2012, 16:12
Fortunately there wasn't enough space for Mat Ward to do a total wreck job on the SoB fluff, aside from a couple of ridiculous stories about a Canoness killing a hive tyrant on her own and a Seraphim Superior that killed an entire eldar army it was pretty tame stuff.Praxedes is actually an old 2nd ed character, and her (brief) 3rd ed incarnation might have actually managed it with enough faith fuelling her 2++ and WS5 S10 thunderhammer.

The fluff is different though, the original Praxedes led a small army of sisters and guard in a suicidal guerrilla war to buy time for the evacuation, rather than hiding in a fortress and getting killed by the first big nid to wander in.

Sparowl
26-10-2012, 18:03
@Spiney Norman - Ward wrote the previous O&G book, which was considered ridiculously weak by most standards.

He then wrote the Daemons book, which was the top of the power curve in 7th. He even made statements to the extent of "it would be a shame if they weren't overpowered" and "take Skulltaker - he was designed to be really good for his points", which shows that he really didn't care about game balance, and certainly not the concept of a points system reflecting proper value.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
26-10-2012, 18:20
It was my understanding that Ward was responsible for the fluff and Cruddace did the rules part, part of GW's new strategy of getting all staff to work to their weaknesses.
Wait, they got someone specifically to do all that copypasta + crappy timeline ?

Fortunately there wasn't enough space for Mat Ward to do a total wreck job on the SoB fluff, aside from a couple of ridiculous stories about a Canoness killing a hive tyrant on her own and a Seraphim Superior that killed an entire eldar army it was pretty tame stuff.
I don't know why, but it seems to me most timeline are crap. Or is it Ward's timeline ? That's usually where the worst crap is. Except for Draigo.

Praxedes is actually an old 2nd ed character, and her (brief) 3rd ed incarnation might have actually managed it with enough faith fuelling her 2++ and WS5 S10 thunderhammer.
Strength 8, no ? You get 6 from the eviscerator and +2 by faith, at most.

"take Skulltaker - he was designed to be really good for his points"
What the …

Spiney Norman
26-10-2012, 18:40
@Spiney Norman - Ward wrote the previous O&G book, which was considered ridiculously weak by most standards.

He then wrote the Daemons book, which was the top of the power curve in 7th. He even made statements to the extent of "it would be a shame if they weren't overpowered" and "take Skulltaker - he was designed to be really good for his points", which shows that he really didn't care about game balance, and certainly not the concept of a points system reflecting proper value.

I dispute that the 7th O&G book was weak at the time of release, it was certainly better than its predecessor, but it suffered, as many O&G books have, of being too early in the army book cycle and was rather left in the dust by everything from the High elf book onwards when the 7th ed power creep really ramped up a gear. I actually rather enjoyed using my 7th ed night goblin army.

Also, never let it be said that I think Mat Ward designs balanced, well costed army books, he's a walking disaster zone, but having Ward write your codex is still preferable to getting crudified.

Scaryscarymushroom
26-10-2012, 19:52
Strength 8, no ? You get 6 from the eviscerator and +2 by faith, at most.

Are you sure you're thinking of the same codex? Praxedes wasn't in the witch hunters book, and neither were thunder hammers.

Although I know at some point SoB had access to all sorts of wargear that were removed from the list with the witch hunters book. Like power fists. :shifty:

A.T.
26-10-2012, 20:08
Are you sure you're thinking of the same codex? Praxedes wasn't in the witch hunters book, and neither were thunder hammers.Her 3rd ed rules were in chapter approved prior to the WH book, she had a mace that functioned as a thunder hammer but I can't remember offhand if she had S4, furious charge, or both.

I'd honestly like to know how long Cruddace had to actually write the sisters list - on his GW page article you can see he's managed to basecoat all of about 5 models in the time he was working on it, whether that's all the time he was given or if he thought sod it and wandered off to find a sheep to fondle is anyones guess.

I'll give Ward this much credit - he puts the same effort into breaking each book he touches. Nids and Sisters made be thing Cruddace didn't really want to be working on them.

Scaryscarymushroom
26-10-2012, 20:41
Her 3rd ed rules were in chapter approved prior to the WH book, she had a mace that functioned as a thunder hammer but I can't remember offhand if she had S4, furious charge, or both.

I'd honestly like to know how long Cruddace had to actually write the sisters list - on his GW page article you can see he's managed to basecoat all of about 5 models in the time he was working on it, whether that's all the time he was given or if he thought sod it and wandered off to find a sheep to fondle is anyones guess.

I'll give Ward this much credit - he puts the same effort into breaking each book he touches. Nids and Sisters made be thing Cruddace didn't really want to be working on them.

Just whipped out my old chapter approved books to check. I didn't see Praxedes in any of them either. The closest I could get to what you described was a Canoness with a 2+ armor save, 4+ save against instant death attacks, WS4, S6 (up from 3) with 5 attacks at initiative 1 from a blade of admonition (2-handed power fist).

bad dice
26-10-2012, 21:03
I dispute that the 7th O&G book was weak at the time of release, it was certainly better than its predecessor, but it suffered, as many O&G books have, of being too early in the army book cycle and was rather left in the dust by everything from the High elf book onwards when the 7th ed power creep really ramped up a gear. I actually rather enjoyed using my 7th ed night goblin army.

Also, never let it be said that I think Mat Ward designs balanced, well costed army books, he's a walking disaster zone, but having Ward write your codex is still preferable to getting crudified.

WTF where you smokeing the Q&G book before this one was so *********** bad even on the day of =release that it reduced the number of orc players to 0 in our local store. And in all the tournaments I went to during it's run time i have seen a grand total of 3 O&G armies. IT was complet and utter ****, you might as well give your dice and models to the opponent and let him play by himself cause that's about how much control you had over it.

Not to mention the laziest design ever. Case in point black orcs.
They lost all weapon options and gained a rule that they had all weapon options. And to compensate their point cost increased by the amount that it costed to take all said options in the previous book . THANK YOU MR WARD, YOU LAZY TOOL.

Also the 6th book was funny to the point of hilarity, it even mentioned little boys called Timmy the 7th book did not even have a souls.

It was bad, stupid, underpowered, broken impossible to play whit and just down right mood kill. IF you ever wanna know what it felt like to me to play whit. Then play a game whit one hand tied behind your back , while you trying to shoot yourself in the foot whit a nailgun. That is how much fun it was.

(yea it still give me issues to this day, your donations for the 7 edition O&G recovery fund can go to 12.54.54.789 netherland name of Koen van Diepen)

A.T.
26-10-2012, 21:32
Just whipped out my old chapter approved books to check. I didn't see Praxedes in any of them either.It's taken me a while to track her down - Citadel Journel 49, page 23
She's WS 5, S3, adds one to her strength on the turn she charges, and has a weapon that counts as a thunderhammer.

Helena, Jacobus, Kyrinov, and a 40pt/model repentia in the same book - Andy Hoares writing.

Chem-Dog
26-10-2012, 22:00
note:I am currently preparing a noose to hang my self from after defending the Sanguinor's existence.

"The mark of a true genius is the ability to hold two seemingly contradictory ideas in mind at once." ;)

I'll concede the point, fluff wasn't broken, but it was pretty badly bent out of shape and now won't go back in it's box.


I think Alan Merrets job is to stop anyone outside GW from destroying the background. Black Library authors aren't really employees of GW. If this is correct it does make you wonder who is keeping an eye on things (it sure isnt an eldar avatar, thats for sure). Though at the current rate of decline in codex background, he won't have much "intellectual" property left to protect.

Perhaps I'm just being too romantic, I honestly expected him to be the guy who has 40K mapped out in his head and steering the direction it goes in. :(




One last thing, lets make an agreement now that if the new DA codex contains any mechanical lions we will club together for a professional hit on Mr Ward...

Well, we have to be sure the Codex was written by him first....Would be a bit rude to off him if it was written by somebody, wouldn't it?


Any BA with a jump pack has DoA, check out the armoury entry.
Vanguards are still not that popular. They can jump down and tie up a scary shooty squad to save you from some shooting and that is it.

I'll take your word on it as my Codex is loaned out at the moment. Does sound like it would be an auto succeed combo for the Heroic Intervention that way though.


Other than the codices, and a couple Assault Marines for Raptors, neither have I.

Well, that's you and I absolved of any responsibility! :) *glowers at everyone else*




Yeah, I'd rather NOT go back to that level of codex, if we could. And I'd imagine they'd loose a few customers that way, too.

As a starting point, it wouldn't be so bad if they were then to adopt a PP style release strategy. When it comes to publishing rules, it really is only a matter of being willing. It's not even as if it's really any different from publishing multiple FAQ's to shoe-horn existing armies into the new edition, it's just approaching the beast from the other end.


Sky Ray makes sense to me, but that was a Forgeworld name, not an original codex unit.

It breaks the pattern is all, everything else is a name of a fish, the Sky Ray is the only one that isn't. And that it's a FW name means GW had the chance to amend that and didn't. It's a little bit OCD of me, I know.


They did that literally to make the game playable though. Not to improve an already "usable" army.

As I said, not unthinkable if the business model were to be changed to gradual drip-feed support for all factions at once.



Both are credited, I don't know who did what.

As far as I know the mechanics were all RC, the background was MW's work.


"take Skulltaker - he was designed to be really good for his points"

I honestly don't understand this. Are some characters deliberately designed to be a horrible point-sink that nobody in their right mind would ever use in a battle? Surely that's a bit counter productive, you know, for a miniatures company that happens to write rules to play a game with it's miniatures.

The_Klobb_Maniac
26-10-2012, 22:13
@Chem
You realize Rays are a type of fish yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manta_ray

sulla
26-10-2012, 22:24
I honestly don't understand this. Are some characters deliberately designed to be a horrible point-sink that nobody in their right mind would ever use in a battle? Surely that's a bit counter productive, you know, for a miniatures company that happens to write rules to play a game with it's miniatures.It did seem a pretty silly comment to make... But one thing I think they used to do wrong in the older books was to price things for their maximum potential, rather than what they were likely to do. So jack of all trades models were priced as if you were getting top value out of them in all phases, rather than the more likely sub-par couple of phases you usually got out of them. Guys like Malekith in fantasy spring to mind; a fighter-mage type with items with no particular synergy. You could easily afford a better fighter and a better mage for the same or a lesser price resulting in him being a worthless unit entry because he simply sees no game time.

Chem-Dog
26-10-2012, 22:38
@Chem
You realize Rays are a type of fish yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manta_ray


I do indeed. I'm also aware that, to date, science hasn't described a single one that lives any part of it's life in the sky.

Which is my point.

Scaryscarymushroom
26-10-2012, 23:00
"take Skulltaker - he was designed to be really good for his points"

I honestly don't understand this. Are some characters deliberately designed to be a horrible point-sink that nobody in their right mind would ever use in a battle? Surely that's a bit counter productive, you know, for a miniatures company that happens to write rules to play a game with it's miniatures.

Here's a theory! It took some thinking though.

GW doesn't see point values as a balancing mechanic. They see it as an arbitrary game mechanic that wraps the rest of the game up into a nice, neat little package. It allows GW (and their players) an exceptional amount of freedom in deciding how to set up and start a game. Importantly, it provides the illusion of balance. Actual balance aside, how would you even start to play Warhammer without point values? You'd need to have army lists written for you by the game designers, or else implement another system that is equally arbitrary, such as leaving it up to the players to decide how many HQ's, units and transports to field. You could agree on a 1500 point game just as easily as agree on playing a "1 HQ, 7 squadron" game.

Although, the rules for units would have been designed differently had GW used a squadron system rather than points. Room for abuse could still exist. In that case, Mat Ward would write rules for Squadrons of up to 30 Death Company and Cruddace would write rules for up to 10 grots, each of which would cost "1 Squadron" to field. Then the Ork players would be just as angry at Cruddace as Tyranid players are now, and Ward would still be a Troll. (If you think of Killpoints from 5th, they're kind of like this.)

MagicHat
26-10-2012, 23:19
I'll take your word on it as my Codex is loaned out at the moment. Does sound like it would be an auto succeed combo for the Heroic Intervention that way though.


BA codex, page 62: "In addition, a Blood Angels model with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule".
Otherwise, honour guard and all of the generic characters would be unable to use DoA, which would be weird.
Still, in this day and age of random charge length, nothing is certain.

TheDungen
27-10-2012, 00:14
Mat Ward's fluff is fun to read though.

On the Grey Knights... they are MORALLY GREY. That's the point, it is a play on the idea of WHITE KNIGHTS and BLACK KNIGHTS. The GREY Knights are Both. They serve a higher cause, to save the Imperium they will bear the sacrifice of the few. That's what the Imperium is all about. They use sorcery, it is straight up sorcery, it's contradictory and they're suppose to be the purest of the pure. And despite their super-heroics, chapter master Samurai Jack and Justicar Jesus Christ, they cannot defeat Chaos. It says straight up in their codex they cannot win. Chaos is eternal. All they can do is struggle. That is heroism.

The Tomb Kings in SPAAACE Necrons are fantastic. He injected personality into the most sterile, boring faction in 40k.
All of their special characters have a great deal of personality and their unique insanities
"though our individual afflictions take different forms, we will eventually all be lost to madness"

Trazyn the infinite's letter to Inquisitor Valeria was humorous and fitting of the setting.

"I am not capricious nor given to cruel acts for their own sakes. It is simply a fact that you and your kind have tresspassed and thus invited extermination. Curse you for putting me to this inconvenience"
-Anrakyr the Traveller to Tau Ethereal Aun'Taniel prior to the Harvest of Ka'mais

That is genuinely funny and fits the 40k setting. The Necrons have this strange sense of humor that is of immortals to the minute mortal lifeforms beneath them. It is a refreshing change from FOR DE EMPRAH and KILL MAIM BURN

and my favorite
"I have slain gods, toppled empires and destroyed entire worlds. Compared to this, your meagre death will likely go unnoticed in history, but do not despair little hero -I shall always remember this moment"
-Anrakyr the Traveller

A line like that just encompasses the immortal nature of the Necrons and how they view the galaxy so perfectly. They are not daemons or saviors, they just are.

Yeah so someone that cant fall is really morally grey? The point with having characters do evil for the 'greater good' is that its supposed to be a slippery slope. well we now know that the grey knights cant slip which makes them uninspiring.

As for superior aliens... oh no its not like we didnt have those before. Actually if someone had attributed those quotes to Eldrad Ulthran i wouldnt have know the diffrence. Or maybe Asdrubal Vect in the last case. So grats now the necrons are Eldar. i hope they're happy.

Nazrax
27-10-2012, 03:31
Yeah so someone that cant fall is really morally grey? The point with having characters do evil for the 'greater good' is that its supposed to be a slippery slope. well we now know that the grey knights cant slip which makes them uninspiring.

As for superior aliens... oh no its not like we didnt have those before. Actually if someone had attributed those quotes to Eldrad Ulthran i wouldnt have know the diffrence. Or maybe Asdrubal Vect in the last case. So grats now the necrons are Eldar. i hope they're happy.

Lol, well evidently Necrons have to jump the turnstyles to get on the webway train to do any sort of meaningful travel but somehow manage to be able to destroy stars anywhere in the galaxy pretty much at a whim. So maybe Necrons are so crazy cause they want to be Eldar but never will? Hmm, sounds familiar doesnt it?

If Ward is writing the DA codex I can only hope that he has wizened up abit and learned to not go GK on everything. Maybe he learned that with the Necrons and helping to write 8th Ed. I dont think the Necron codex is crazy over-the-top awesome. It really seems that its more the 6th Ed. fliers rules and lack of 6th Ed codieces(spelling?) that cause the OP claims. I would like to think that Ward will do a better job of balancing DA rules and writing any DA fluff. I wouldnt hold my breath however.

I also hope that GW realizes the possible trouble that he could cause by writing the DA codex and any subsequent Marines codex, and put him on a short leash and/or have the codex coauthored.
At this point all we have is speculation and the wild hyperbole that is so common when anyone so much as whispers his name. Although I must say it is very enjoyable to read the crazy hate filled rants that invoking his name causes. I say keep that malice, spite, agonizingly painful whining and never ending angst coming!

lordreaven448
27-10-2012, 03:52
I just realized Ward worked on the Wood Elves too with Anthony Reynolds:eek:.

big squig
27-10-2012, 05:15
Also, never let it be said that I think Mat Ward designs balanced, well costed army books, he's a walking disaster zone, but having Ward write your codex is still preferable to getting crudified.

Both of them could go and I would be happy.

Cthell
27-10-2012, 07:59
I do indeed. I'm also aware that, to date, science hasn't described a single one that lives any part of it's life in the sky.

Which is my point.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1298362/Flying-giants-Incredibly-rare-display-manta-rays-leap-3ft-water-air.html

FallenAfh
27-10-2012, 08:39
I'll take Ward over Kelly/Cruddace everyday of the week. I'd rather have an actual codex that I can use with multiple viable builds, then "bland aspect warriors everywhere" Kelly and Cruddex. I can live with the 1d3 pieces of subpar fluff (which all authors are guilty off) that neckbeards like to blow out of proportion.

BlackJuju
27-10-2012, 09:42
I'll take Ward over Kelly/Cruddace everyday of the week. I'd rather have an actual codex that I can use with multiple viable builds, then "bland aspect warriors everywhere" Kelly and Cruddex. I can live with the 1d3 pieces of subpar fluff (which all authors are guilty off) that neckbeards like to blow out of proportion.
I cant live with sub-par fluff and NO, not all authors are guilty, lets see if the Dark Angels will be the next space marine chapter that Necrons team up to fight Tyranids.
Mat Ward is guilt of ruining the Necrons fluff for ever, turning the C'tan into pokemon. Lets pray Dark Angels will be safe this time !

Endobai
27-10-2012, 10:15
I'll take Ward over Kelly/Cruddace everyday of the week. I'd rather have an actual codex that I can use with multiple viable builds, then "bland aspect warriors everywhere" Kelly and Cruddex.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Codex Orks even considering how old it is offers several viable builds and is well written skillfully using pieces of background which are iconic to the army, the race and the game. Codex DE is problably one of the best in years and made me collect second 40k army - after 12 years of playing. Codex Eldar even if it is a Gavdex update as it is still is more than decent and doesn't need to many changes to work well in the 6th edition.
CSM Codex was a disappoitment though.

Compared to that SM codex is pretty good, BA codex powerful and GK dex is an abomination with horrible pieces of extremely cheap wargear (how much are psychotroke granades and psychobolts, please enlighten me) which can destroy whole units with little effort.





I can live with the 1d3 pieces of subpar fluff (which all authors are guilty off) that neckbeards like to blow out of proportion.

Oh no. It is not about random pieces of WTF stuff added randomly which you can ignore because the rest is decent, but about nightmarish pieces of pure garbage writing a 12 year old would get a D where I am living - for which the author was paid, for something you are paying real money and pieces which are literally ruining whole blocks of background established by much more mature writers.
Codex GK is the prime suspect here, but codex Space Marines is not a jewel either.

As a person who is the receiver of this stuff I can and I will continue to demand some quality - it not communist 1980s where I had to agree to accept poor quality because there was nothing else.

BlackJuju
27-10-2012, 13:34
Lets all agree that Matt Ward is to Warhammer world the equivalent of Damon Lindelof is to Hollywood, they both ruining our games/movies we loved since we were kids.


And... fluff is the number 1 factor(and the only one actually together with how the models appeal to me) why I choose a certain army to play with

TheDungen
27-10-2012, 14:30
I just realized Ward worked on the Wood Elves too with Anthony Reynolds:eek:.

Yeah he's a fairly decent writer when he has someone to hold him back from going to crazy. As i said earlier (or maybe in another thread) having to people co-write the books worked way better.

Horus Lupercal
27-10-2012, 15:00
The thing is my only main gripe with the BA codex is the Necron bromance and I'm sure a space marine battles novel could clear it up quite well and make it look more like the grudging cease fire between the 2 to survive rather than the full blown tactical joint assault the codex seems to imply.

That and blood fist. It's just a dread CCW!

Tamwulf
27-10-2012, 16:15
The thing is my only main gripe with the BA codex is the Necron bromance and I'm sure a space marine battles novel could clear it up quite well and make it look more like the grudging cease fire between the 2 to survive rather than the full blown tactical joint assault the codex seems to imply.

That and blood fist. It's just a dread CCW!

I have issues with how the Blood Angels gestalt somehow manifested this being called "The Sanguinor", and how no one else in the Imperium seems to care that the Blood Angels have manifested not one, but two Daemon Princes- the Sanguinor and Mephiston. Fast vehicles... eh. Blood Angels are red, and GW long ago said "red ones go fastah!" I also don't mind Librarian Dreadnoughts, but it opens up a whole host of other questions, like why don't other chapters have Librarian or even Chaplain dreads? What makes the BA so special?

Actually, I can answer my own last question there: It makes the BA unique. Without it, they might as well be just a foot note in the C:SM like the Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists, Ravenguard, Salamanders, and White Scares.

Matt Ward writes a competitive codex with bad fluff. :D

AlphariusOmegon20
27-10-2012, 17:04
Let's not forget that when Ward DID have the opportunity to write core rules by himself (WOTR) he botched them so badly, the game wasn't even playable. (just one example was him leaving out the most important rule of ANY game, you ALWAYS fail on a 1. A couple of units can hit on a one in WOTR.)

Voss
27-10-2012, 19:09
Hmm. I found WotR to be a vastly superior ruleset to 7th edition fantasy. It had a couple problems, but not nearly as many as Fantasy did at the time. Much more enjoyable as well.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
27-10-2012, 19:22
Are you sure you're thinking of the same codex?
You're right, I completely forgot the Chapter Approved, which I think I never had the chance to read.

It's taken me a while to track her down - Citadel Journel 49, page 23
Woaw, is there good fluff around it ? I'd like to see that.

What makes the BA so special?
The power of marine-sue !

Haravikk
27-10-2012, 20:32
In fairness the Mat Ward codexes are somewhat balanced against one another, and many of the rules are interesting and fun, though there are some obvious gaffs (such as the Necro flyers and a lot of the Grey Knight pricing); that said he absolutely shouldn't be allowed to write background or name things, because the last thing we need is a Grey Knights-like psi-everything.

If someone else is involved to keep things sane and do the background instead of him, then we could be alright, though we'll be lucky if we can get a decent codex and avoid having some kind of cartoony crap added to the model lineup.

A.T.
27-10-2012, 21:02
Woaw, is there good fluff around it ? I'd like to see that.Just two paragraphs in the 2nd ed book - led a counter-attack of Sisters and guardsmen on Tyranid forces when they reached the Cardinal Palace, bested a Hive Tyrant and broke the nid push buying time for evacuations, opting to push on and fight a hit and run war against the nids around the space port rather than withdraw to the shuttles to make sure they all got out.

Gavin Thorpe Praxedes died fighting impossible odds behind enemy lines to save a few extra shuttles of civilians rather than saving herself.
Ward/Cruddace Praxedes got killed when the nids managed to break through the lines of artillery she was hiding behind, and got in a lucky dying blow.

Freman Bloodglaive
27-10-2012, 22:06
Unless I missed an FAQ. Vanguards don't get DoA and they can't HI if they are accompanied by a Character. All game balance issues. Which makes them relatively unreliable and without a real portfolio in a book full of Jumping Troops, SG can drop in more reliably and can weather far more damage (and be expected to dish more out), Jump Honourguard squads offer a unit that runs with a character and can really be tailored to your target of choice and Regular Assault Squads are cheaper in bulk, don't inhabit valuable FA slots and do score objectives. Deathcompany...Does anyone give them JP's?

All Blood Angels with jump packs get decent of angels, it's in the jump pack rules. p62

Sparowl
28-10-2012, 01:57
Lets all agree that Matt Ward is to Warhammer world the equivalent of Damon Lindelof is to Hollywood, they both ruining our games/movies we loved since we were kids.

And... fluff is the number 1 factor(and the only one actually together with how the models appeal to me) why I choose a certain army to play with

I would say he's more like the Michael Bay of warhammer. BOOM! WOOSH! SUPER-AWESOME-KILLEY-FIGHT-SCENE-GO! ("How did we get to this scene?" "STOP QUESTIONING AND BLOW MORE STUFF UP!")

And yes, fluff is hugely important.

I like you, we agree on things. :)


Hmm. I found WotR to be a vastly superior ruleset to 7th edition fantasy. It had a couple problems, but not nearly as many as Fantasy did at the time. Much more enjoyable as well.

Are we talking about the initial WotR ruleset? Not the newer stuff? Cause it was basically unplayable. Vs 7th edition, which was fine (for a GW product, which means flaws are expected). 7th just had terrible army books, the worst offender of which was.......Daemons.......written by.......Mat Ward. Amazing.

Inquisitor Samos
28-10-2012, 03:49
I have issues with how the Blood Angels gestalt somehow manifested this being called "The Sanguinor", and how no one else in the Imperium seems to care that the Blood Angels have manifested not one, but two Daemon Princes- the Sanguinor and Mephiston.
The "BA gestalt" thing is just one theory, not an established "fact" IIRC. I'd hardly equate either Mephiston or the Sanguinor to "daemon princes," except possibly in terms of roughly equivalent game function (and maybe not even then). And the BAs are far from the only ones connected to such occurrences: St. Celestine comes to mind, for example, as a manifestation not all that different from the Sanguinor. The Legion of the Damned are another, at least in terms of their "miraculous interventions."

Voss
28-10-2012, 04:15
Are we talking about the initial WotR ruleset? Not the newer stuff? Cause it was basically unplayable. Vs 7th edition, which was fine (for a GW product, which means flaws are expected). 7th just had terrible army books, the worst offender of which was.......Daemons.......written by.......Mat Ward. Amazing.
I'm talking about WotR, not the SBG. Big Blue Book. So, whatever you mean by 'newer,' I'm not really sure, but it was a lot more playable than 7th. (though since I was in the states, had fewer players, though only just, since 7th had killed the local scene completely).

Actually, I'd say the 7th ruleset as a whole was just awful. Regardless of the army books, the system was just terribly flawed, largely because it had been allowed to proliferate the flaws of the previous editions (out of conservatism) rather than stride boldly forward. Daemons was just one of several heavily flawed army books, written by a variety of people, including Vetock's skaven and Alessio's (or was it Gav's?) Vampires.

But anyway, since this is pretty much just another hate thread, I'm going to go about my business elsewhere.

Chem-Dog
28-10-2012, 05:39
Here's a theory! It took some thinking though....

I read somewhere on WarSeer recently that GW has two points value equations, one for WHFB and one for 40K. These are used arrive at a starting value when working out points values for units in comparison to a single standard item and are then tweaked according to "feel". In WHFB it's a "Man", in 40K it's a Marine. Not sure how legit that is, but if it is it'd definitely support your theory.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1298362/Flying-giants-Incredibly-rare-display-manta-rays-leap-3ft-water-air.html

Touché.


I have issues with how the Blood Angels gestalt somehow manifested this being called "The Sanguinor", and how no one else in the Imperium seems to care that the Blood Angels have manifested not one, but two Daemon Princes- the Sanguinor and Mephiston. Fast vehicles... eh. Blood Angels are red, and GW long ago said "red ones go fastah!" I also don't mind Librarian Dreadnoughts, but it opens up a whole host of other questions, like why don't other chapters have Librarian or even Chaplain dreads? What makes the BA so special?

Actually, I can answer my own last question there: It makes the BA unique. Without it, they might as well be just a foot note in the C:SM like the Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists, Ravenguard, Salamanders, and White Scares.

Matt Ward writes a competitive codex with bad fluff. :D

Bad fluff begets bad fluff though (whoever writes it), and that's what we (I) don't want, for any faction. Eventually a throwaway line of fluff will become the cornerstone of the next iteration of the Codex and then there's no way back.
3rd decided Blood Angels should turbo-charge their Rhinos (because they are so bloodthirsty and battle hungry :rolleyes: ), and now we have Fast Whirlwinds/Vindicators.

Hadriel Caine
28-10-2012, 12:22
Only just stumbled across this thread. Received a text from a friend this morning saying '...and then cypher took off his helm, and to all's disbelief, it was true... there before the Khornate wizard... stood Guilliman... back to save the universe.'

'Nuff said.

@Dean's post on p1. I really like that concept for Cypher.

Carlosophy
28-10-2012, 12:23
Realistically then, what exactly are people expecting Ward to mess up in the Dark Angels book (back on topic)?

Cthell
28-10-2012, 13:01
Realistically then, what exactly are people expecting Ward to mess up in the Dark Angels book (back on topic)?

All of it? :p

More realistically, I expect him to decide that the "watchers in the dark" are too mysterious (and need to be turned into super-killy demons summoned by the Dark Angels despair at not being ultramarines)

Minsc
28-10-2012, 13:21
As a long time Dark Angels Player (since RT days!), I'm tired of getting a weak sauce codex. I'm tired of being laughed at every time I put "Green PA in Dresses" on the table. I'm sick and tired of every unique thing that comes along for the Dark Angels, then next PA Codex gets the exact same options, and for way, way cheaper. I vomit every time a new power armor codex comes out and I compare our units and choices with what that codex gets- and see that the rules they have started with the test codex of the Dark Angels.

When the 5th Ed C:SM dropped, I stopped playing Dark Angels, and started playing Emerald Angels. And ya know what? It was great! I had Tactical Squads with great options. I had Terminator squads that could be lead by a Captain in Terminator Armor riding altogether in a Land Raider. Or deep strike onto the table with no scatter thanks to Scout Bikes. I got an Ironclad Dread! And a real Mortis Pattern Dreadnaught. I had bikes with outflank. Scouts with HB Hellfire and Camo Cloaks! The awesome Land Raider Redeemer! And oh, look at that! My special characters could join a full squad inside a drop pod! Then there is the Storm Talon.

Right now, there is nothing unique about the Dark Angels except the fluff, and that's been so watered down and glossed over that it barely resembles the fluff from the 3rd Ed days. Read the current codex and there is next to no mention as to why the Deathwing wear white, or why the Ravenwing wears black, and why do the green guys wear dresses? Seriously. You want an all Termy army? Loganwing and Draigowing both do it better. Want an all biker army? White scars- who can do it cheaper and get skilled rider/jink saves. All Scout Army? Again, look towards C:SM. What happened to the Book of Salvation? The Blades of Reason? How about Hunting the Fallen? Are you kidding me? The Sword of Secrets is a MC Relic Blade? Really? Or the Sword of Silence is a MC power sword? Why does the Master of the Deathwing not have an Iron Halo? Doesn't that kind of go against all the fluff about Company Masters and Iron Halo's? I could go on for DAYS about all the things that are wrong with C:DA.

They have been treated as a "Second Class Power Armor Army" since 3rd Edition. Honestly, I don't know why they even bothered giving us a unique codex in 5th. They could have included three characters in C:SM- Azrael- replace all units with Chapter Tactics with Stubborn. Belial- all Terminators gain Fearless and become troops choices. Sammael- All biker squads gain Skilled Rider and Outflank. BOOM. I just folded the entire C:DA into C:SM.

You know what I want? I want MECHANICAL LIONS that combine into a Dreadknight like model. I want to hear that the Inner Circle has been pulling the wool over the Imperium for the last 10,000 years, making them think that the Dark Angels follow the Codex Astrates, but in reality, the Inner Circle has changed the organization and geared the entire chapter towards one goal: Hunting down the Fallen and redeeming themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Yes, they are still "loyal" to the Imperium, but it's all about the Fallen.

I want new, unique units that come out of nowhere- like Sanguinary Guard, Thunderwolves, Dreadknights, Bloodravens, Storm Talons. I want special characters that are over the top- a Draigo, or Mephistan, or Sanguinar. I want stuff that no other Space Marine army has access to and will never get access to. I don't want to be laughed at any more when I put my green guys in dresses on the table. I want people to look at my army and say "Wow. I wish I could take Mechanical Lions in my army!".

If the price for this competitiveness on the table is that my treasured Dark Angels brofisted some Necron Lord, or that they are Best Buddies with the Dark Eldar because of something that happened in the Black Library, or that they sacrificed a bunch of Sisters of Battle and bathed in their blood, so be it. I can ignore the fluff, but I can't ignore the performance of my army on the table.

Matt Ward is the single best thing to happen to the Dark Angels Codex since 3rd Edition.

It's such a shame that there isn't a "like"-button in this forum.
I don't like Ward, but you are absolutely right that he is the best thing to happen to the DA for a long time.
Shame he didn't write C:CSM.


As for Cruddace i just wanted to point out that his 'warhammer armies: Empire' was a solid book.

Empire suffers from severe internal balance issues, just like most/all of Cruddace's work.
If you don't believe me, try playing the same opponent two times: once with mostly Cavalry/Warmachines, and once with mostly Infantery/Warmachines - then tell us which list performed the best.


I just realized Ward worked on the Wood Elves too with Anthony Reynolds

Wood Elves where really good when they came out in 6th Ed.
I know, because Wood Elves was my first WFB-army, and I started with them a week before they got their 6th Ed. codex, and despite being a beginner at WFB, I rarely lost with them during 6th Ed.
How's that for balance? It's sort of like a new 40kplayer playing Necrons/GK, repeatedly beating the snot out of a 10-year veteran who plays DA/4th Ed. CSM - you don't need skill to win, just a good army.

On topic I really hope that DA become balanced, in line with the current CSM. Otherwise we will have a new era of powercreep, where CSM are yet again left of the bottom, with every new codex getting more and more powerful, except for those written by Cruddace.

Xerkics
28-10-2012, 13:24
I have issues with how the Blood Angels gestalt somehow manifested this being called "The Sanguinor", and how no one else in the Imperium seems to care that the Blood Angels have manifested not one, but two Daemon Princes- the Sanguinor and Mephiston.
Matt Ward writes a competitive codex with bad fluff. :D

Ah but the imperium at large doesnt have a clue that Mephiston has a statline of daemon prince and about sanguinor etc. We know because we have seen the book but Imperium doesnt there is only 1 Sanguinor and Mephiston manifestation there while there are tens of thousands of BA armies using both. And astartes are hugely secretive and pretty independent so its not unusual for the imperium at large not to have a clue what they are up to. 99% of population never seen a space marine anyway.

TheDungen
28-10-2012, 23:26
I'm still hoping cypher get retconned to being the lion but considering what we know from the HH books i guess the odds are slim.

Sparowl
28-10-2012, 23:49
I'm talking about WotR, not the SBG. Big Blue Book. So, whatever you mean by 'newer,' I'm not really sure, but it was a lot more playable than 7th. (though since I was in the states, had fewer players, though only just, since 7th had killed the local scene completely).

Actually, I'd say the 7th ruleset as a whole was just awful. Regardless of the army books, the system was just terribly flawed, largely because it had been allowed to proliferate the flaws of the previous editions (out of conservatism) rather than stride boldly forward. Daemons was just one of several heavily flawed army books, written by a variety of people, including Vetock's skaven and Alessio's (or was it Gav's?) Vampires.

But anyway, since this is pretty much just another hate thread, I'm going to go about my business elsewhere.

Ah, I saw WotR and my brain translated to LotR, so I thought we were talking about the several attempts GW has made at making them into a wargame. I don't have any personal experience with anything past SBG, since it was so bad that I decided to let it be.

I'd like to hear your problems with the 7th ruleset itself. Around here it was perfectly fine until the run of, as you mentioned, Daemons, Vampires and Skaven. That began the slow decline of fantasy in the area, and 8th edition pretty much hammered it home.


Only just stumbled across this thread. Received a text from a friend this morning saying '...and then cypher took off his helm, and to all's disbelief, it was true... there before the Khornate wizard... stood Guilliman... back to save the universe.'

'Nuff said.

@Dean's post on p1. I really like that concept for Cypher.

I might steal that for my signature. I can't tell you the number of people I've shown it who laughed for several minutes. Good work, there. :)

IcedCrow
29-10-2012, 00:21
7th edition ruleset - the dance of the 1/8" inch. Where every army was a cavalry/chariot line of some type and they were all jockeying around each other until one screwed up and got within the 1/8" of an inch of charge distance of the other and then got charged and tabled.

murgel2006
29-10-2012, 10:31
Personally I shall be very sad if Ward did the DA codex, because if he did/does it is very unlikely that he will do the Eldar one.



Matt Ward is the single best thing to happen to the Dark Angels Codex since 3rd Edition.

I could not agree more. Deathwing termies were my first miniatures and I always loved the models and the fluff.
But one thing is for sure, it is more than time for a power enhance simply because the codex currently is inconsistent. The order is said to have access to some very old and obscure tech but I don't see anything in the rules. etc.
No, Ward will be a blessing for the DA.

Frankly, I'm a bit annoyed by all the screaming about OP this and OP that. Most players and most lists I see discussed in the net are all about tournament/spam/fluffignoring but at the same time I read complains about powerful units in the other player's codices.
So basically it is ok if your codex has powerful options and it is ok if you ignore fluff, but the competition shall have very fluffy lists and balanced units only....

Well, I would like to see what Ward and Kelly would come up with for the DA.

Besides, it is not about balance or about fluff, it is about GW wanting to sell miniatures and if a OP codex with lots of OP new units and models will do that, then the order for the writer will be: "Make this happen."
Because GW is not in it for our fun, but for our money.

Athlan na Dyr
29-10-2012, 11:53
I would say he's more like the Michael Bay of warhammer. BOOM! WOOSH! SUPER-AWESOME-KILLEY-FIGHT-SCENE-GO! ("How did we get to this scene?" "STOP QUESTIONING AND BLOW MORE STUFF UP!")

And yes, fluff is hugely important.

I like you, we agree on things. :)

I see your fight scene and raise you one 'Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle.. uh... Aliens?'


I'm still hoping cypher get retconned to being the lion but considering what we know from the HH books i guess the odds are slim.

Oh god no! A fragment of the Lion (or whats-his-face) maybe (if dodgy).
A random no namer/ half-warp-entity/ thing fine.
An unexplained phenomenon that remains shrouded, bingo. He should remain as he always has been - an unknown, dual pistol wielding badass with a broken sword and a C'tan phase sword.

So of course, Mat Ward will turn him into the hero of the Imperium who runs around punching Avatars, having a fling with female members of the inquisition and carving 'El'Jonson was the best!' on the hearts of the surviving daemonic primarchs (and Russ). :p

(that said, I do actually like Trazyn somewhat).

DarthMcBob
29-10-2012, 19:00
So... sigworthy... mind if I do?

Not at all.

Sorry for how long it took to reply.