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AlphariusOmegon20
28-10-2012, 20:26
You'd think that being able to hit flyers on a 3+ would be something everyone would be all over, but I hear more and more people saying Flakk Missiles aren't worth it. Am I missing something here? Is there something I'm overlooking about Flakk Missiles that makes them not worth paying the points?

What makes the Aegis line which everyone and their brother that plays CSM takes, more worth it than Flakk Missiles?

IcedCrow
28-10-2012, 21:01
The optimizers i talk to have said its because the aegis is cheap and doesnt take a heavy slot. Flakk missiles cost a lot more so to an optimizer they arent "optimal"

IcedCrow
28-10-2012, 21:02
Of course it seems many optimizers wont play with the chaos codex anyway.

Xerkics
28-10-2012, 21:10
I got flyers and my friend thinks they are broken but he plays CSM and can buy flakk missiles but CHOOSEs not too because he claims they are too expensive. I dont get this personally cause if the situation was reversed id still buy them and thought it was a good investment. I dont get the bit where people say they arent worth it because of it. Seems like people just whining really.

Minsc
28-10-2012, 21:22
People who claim it aint worth it claim that because it simply isn't worth it.

You pay 175 pts for 5 havocs with 4 flakk-launchers. That's 175 pts for 4 BS4 S7 AP4 shots (many seem to forget that Flakk is S7, not S8), and 5 havoc's, even in cover, aren't really that hard to kill.
Against AV10 fliers they're excellent. Against AV11 they're meh, against AV12 they're straight down crap.

Most CSM players probably take Autocannons instead of Flakklaunchers, save themselves 60 pts and use those points on a Quadgun, because it's much more value for the pts.

Xerkics
28-10-2012, 21:25
Yes well but he doesnt get the quadgun he just buys the auto cannons and complains that flyers are broken and doesnt buy the flakk either. And if the flakk was too cheap then flyers wouldnt sell that well. To be honest i think GW spoiled people with the quadgun as a shameless attempt to cash in. They are so good at countering flyers at such a little investment it makes flakk look bad.

IAMNOTHERE
28-10-2012, 21:29
Damn Minsc you beat me to the punchline :)

The other problem with flakk is their targets, no one is really worried about AV 10 fliers; the problem comes at AV12. With 4 missiles, I may get a glance out of a turns shooting - poor.

Xerkics
28-10-2012, 21:31
Damn Minsc you beat me to the punchline :)

The other problem with flakk is their targets, no one is really worried about AV 10 fliers; the problem comes at AV12. With 4 missiles, I may get a glance out of a turns shooting - poor.

Well last time i ran flyers i had 2 doomscythes and a nightscythe for a 2000 game. And str 7 can glance these on 4s and pen on 5s thats not bad.

IcedCrow
28-10-2012, 21:45
If it's not a guaranteed thing then optimizer types won't use it.

Minsc
28-10-2012, 21:46
Well last time i ran flyers i had 2 doomscythes and a nightscythe for a 2000 game. And str 7 can glance these on 4s and pen on 5s thats not bad.

I'm not gonna mention anything about having 3 necronfliers @ 2000 pts, however:
Your fliers come in on your turn. Then they shoot - ofcourse the Nightscythe's start, firing their tesla-annhilators at the havocs' - bam - all havocs dead. Congratulations, your 200 pts of transporter-fliers just killed 175 pts of anti-air.


If it's not a guaranteed thing then optimizer types won't use it.

You should learn the difference between a "guaranteed thing" and a "bad thing".
Autocannon Havocs + Quadgun will be a better option than Flakk-Havocs 9 times out of 10. Autocannon Havocs are actually less guaranteed to do something against the flier, but somehow they are still the better option. How strange...

On the other hand, you don't even have to take Havoc's, the CSM Heavy Support-department is full of goodies.
If you as a CSM player are up against several Necron/IG fliers, not even 3 squads of flakk-Havoc's will save you. You might as well pick something else in HS that's more fun to use, and try to have a good time while your opponent beats your army to a bloody pulp. Khorne doesn't care from where the blood flows right?

red_drake
28-10-2012, 21:47
@IAMNOTHERE:
Thats more a problem with GW putting in av12 fliers.

RunepriestRidcully
28-10-2012, 22:12
Then perhaps they should have then given the the non imperial races more ways to deal with them....

igwarlord
28-10-2012, 22:48
THe biggest problem I see is the lack of interceptor with the havocs and the lack of knowing what your opponent takes.
the flakk is one of those things where if my opponent is going all flying circus then my havocs will be dead before I can fire a single missile at them
If they only have 1 or 2 flyers then the flakk missiles may help
If you end up fighting an army that doesn't get any flyers or someone who did not take any then you just wasted points on something for nothing

AlphariusOmegon20
28-10-2012, 23:31
THe biggest problem I see is the lack of interceptor with the havocs and the lack of knowing what your opponent takes.
the flakk is one of those things where if my opponent is going all flying circus then my havocs will be dead before I can fire a single missile at them
If they only have 1 or 2 flyers then the flakk missiles may help
If you end up fighting an army that doesn't get any flyers or someone who did not take any then you just wasted points on something for nothing

This must be what I'm missing. Why would you need interceptor if you already have Frag and Krak missiles? You just switch missile types for anything that ISN'T a flyer or skimmer.

The_Klobb_Maniac
28-10-2012, 23:38
175 pts = 2.66 S7 hits = .0152hpp
115 pts(?) = 1.33 S7 hits = ~.011hpp

Now.. it's half as good to take autocannon for an HS slot per an FOC measurement, but it's only about 20% less effective per point. The difference is that means you can shove a lot more into your list. The ML spam with Flakks aren't *bad*, but they're an expensive JoaT (jack of all trades) where as the ACs are a cheap JoaT that against everything AV12 and below are flat better and against infantry they're better per point. ML havocs are also decent for their cost (but if you're doing that the optimizer would argue why not go to the strictly better SW list. ACs are unique in Chaos and thus mean you'll probably want to run them so you have something with differing strengths and similar costs..)

IAMNOTHERE
28-10-2012, 23:42
GW have put AV12 fliers in 4 codex now so it's not an abnormality - its the norm. That means we need to figure out ways to deal with them reliably and most flier lists will have 2.

So we need 3 anti air units to deal with them as 2 will get taken out before they can fire; that's just an assumption and no one will take 3 units of airdefence. Players will take effective, points efficient, multiroll units like ACHavocs or objective campers in defence lines. Flakk Havocs just don't do this, I'd rather take 4 Lascannon Havocs or a tri las pred; that way if anything does hit it will actually have an effect (S9 AP2).

IcedCrow
29-10-2012, 00:03
You should learn the difference between a "guaranteed thing" and a "bad thing".

I'm aware of the difference thanks. "bad thing" will always be up to the person judging what is and is not a "bad thing".

Chem-Dog
29-10-2012, 00:14
This must be what I'm missing. Why would you need interceptor if you already have Frag and Krak missiles? You just switch missile types for anything that ISN'T a flyer or skimmer.

You need it to stop the Flyer(s) buzzing in and nuking the Havocs before they get a chance to have a go at the Flyer, because points spent on becoming able to accurately target aircraft are points wasted when said skycrate then turns the unit to mush. A unit able to accurately target them will be a high priority and most flyers can vape a small squad of heavy weapon troopers quite easily.
It's an inherent problem in an IgoUgo game that allows units to arrive midway through the game. Sacrificing a turn's shooting to "Watch the skies" wouldn't have been to hard of an addition, yet all there is is interceptor.



So we need 3 anti air units to deal with them as 2 will get taken out before they can fire; that's just an assumption and no one will take 3 units of airdefence. Players will take effective, points efficient, multiroll units like ACHavocs or objective campers in defence lines. Flakk Havocs just don't do this, I'd rather take 4 Lascannon Havocs or a tri las pred; that way if anything does hit it will actually have an effect (S9 AP2).

In many ways it's the Melta issue all over again, Lascannons didn't guarantee a penning hit against AP 14 so people opted for a cheaper option (usually) that gave them more control over the damage roll.

Scribe of Khorne
29-10-2012, 00:16
S7 vs AV12
Expensive and Competing against a quite optimal choice for light Mech (AC's)
Kind of a boring unit all said.

If I was really worried about Anti-Air I would think about taking them, but I think your more likely to see a few AV12 flyers vs a swarm of AV10/11, and so your better served with mixing it up or taking allies to fill that gap.

AlphariusOmegon20
29-10-2012, 01:25
S7 vs AV12
Expensive and Competing against a quite optimal choice for light Mech (AC's)
Kind of a boring unit all said.

If I was really worried about Anti-Air I would think about taking them, but I think your more likely to see a few AV12 flyers vs a swarm of AV10/11, and so your better served with mixing it up or taking allies to fill that gap.

Funny enough, I posted this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?356173-List-vs-Modeling-Dilemma) on here, B&C, and another forum, and got about 50% of the answers I got between those 3 threads made it sound like I really didn't want to run ML's with Flakks, which caused me to research even more into the stats of it, and after realizing that you hit on 3's, I simply for the life of me could not figure out WHY everyone was saying that.

Aluinn
29-10-2012, 03:56
10 Cultists manning an Aegis Defense Line with quad gun are probably harder to kill than 5 Havocs with 4 flakk missile launchers in general, are 25 points cheaper, average about the same number of hits (in fact, very slightly more), and have Interceptor. Taking 5 CSM instead of Cultists makes the two options equal in cost but increases your average quad gun hits to ~4, and again you get Interceptor. The fact that the ADL+quad gun+cheap unit brings its own cover whereas the Havocs have to find their own (and may very well not be able to find 4+, if your DZ lacks ruins) is another point in favor of the former.

ehlijen
29-10-2012, 14:57
What about taking 10 havocs? The quadgun will also bounce off AV14 while kraks have a chance. And you still have the frag blasts for antihorde work.

Or take 5 havocs with 2 ML in a rhino. Flyers will have to chew through that box before wiping the contents out, and their movement rules will make getting more than one shot at the havocs difficult.

Just because you can doesn't mean minimum size unit + max out on options is the only good way to use them.

mughi3
29-10-2012, 15:10
@IAMNOTHERE:
Thats more a problem with GW putting in av12 fliers.
i remember when all flyers were AV10 or 11 except 2 very special superheavy flyers that were (and still are AV 12-thuinderhawks and the manta) a boatload of points to begin with before they tried to shoehorn proper flyers into 5th as skimmers.

Jump infantry used to be able to assult flyers to......FW did a better job with flyers than the main line did incorporating them into the game......but hey GW wants you to buy those pretty new flyer models and fortifications. looks like its working.

Prisoner24601
29-10-2012, 15:20
Do i spend 175pts and easily 40 on the havocs, as getting ML's is a bitch atm on bits sites, that i wont run every game.

or 150pts and 40 on a box of guard and a ADL, and getting 2 units i can run every game, as 150pts on a JoAT is not that bad.

hmm.. i wonder why no-one is spending 25pts per FlakkML

Daedalus81
29-10-2012, 15:46
Lets not ignore that the quad gun is pretty easily killed.

Vaktathi
29-10-2012, 16:18
For the same cost as 3 Flakk squads, you can get 3 Autocannon squads *AND* a Heldrake with 10pts to spare, giving you 90% of the AA effectiveness, an additional unit, and significantly more capable firepower against everything else.

For some reason Phil Kelly decided that Missile Launchers needed to be 5pts more than autocannons (probably because of his muck-up with Long Fangs and thinking ML's should be more expensive), and then Flakk capabilities another 10pts on top of that, making each Flakk equipped Missile Launcher cost 250% what an Autocannon costs, adding up to an extra 60pts per unit over the cost of an autocannon, enough to buy a Quad gun as others have noted.




Or take 5 havocs with 2 ML in a rhino. Flyers will have to chew through that box before wiping the contents out, and their movement rules will make getting more than one shot at the havocs difficult. Sadly, the box has a lifespan of about 2 seconds in 6th ed and likely can be engaged and destroyed before the flyers need to, allowing them to directly engage the AA unit, or, with only 2 flakk missiles, may just decide to ignore them entirely given that what amounts to a single autocannon isn't exactly the greatest threat in the world.

AlphariusOmegon20
29-10-2012, 16:19
What about taking 10 havocs? The quadgun will also bounce off AV14 while kraks have a chance. And you still have the frag blasts for antihorde work.



See, that was my thinking. I've rarely, if ever, only run minimum size Havoc units in the past.

IcedCrow
29-10-2012, 16:22
See, that was my thinking. I've rarely, if ever, only run minimum size Havoc units in the past.

I think it comes down to how you play the game.

If you are over-worried about making sure that your army list is "optimal" then you won't take havocs because they aren't "optimal".

Vaktathi
29-10-2012, 16:34
That really goes for anything in this game though, and it just boils down to the fact that the extra points you pay for the AA capabilities are really above what they should be.

Carnage
29-10-2012, 16:44
Lets not ignore that the quad gun is pretty easily killed.

It's harder to kill then a typical 5 man havoc squad with anything short of lascannons/missiles.

Lord Inquisitor
29-10-2012, 17:33
The major issue seems to be with the 6th Ed flier rules. With no actual AA phase, unlike many other games, AA units without interceptor can't shoot at the aircraft before the aircraft get in range. Add to that the issue of no proper dogfight rules, aircraft on aircraft combat seems to rely on who enters the airspace second. Artefacts of previous editions leave aircraft with excessive armour. Valkyries probably shouldn't be a 12, but since they've been a skimmer for the last edition, it's easy to see why they needed the armour then.

While the proper aircraft rules was a nice addition to 40k, the execution was simply awful. I don't get it, Epic Armageddon has a functional aircraft system that, while E:A isn't IGOUGO, could be easily ported into 40k with some adjustments. There needs to be an overwatch system, a proper one not the lame stand and shoot system we have now, particularly for AA weapons. Some form of aircraft "intercept" system is required or a dogfight simulation. You could "patch" the system by giving all AA weapons the interceptor rule, including those on aircraft. This would make flying into AA appropriately risky and make approaching dead onto another aircraft (or into a bomber's defensive guns) a realistically dangerous proposition.

Until then, though, we're going to have these stupid situations where AA units are just prime targets for aircraft and will get shot by aircraft before even loosing a shot.

Daedalus81
29-10-2012, 17:38
It's harder to kill then a typical 5 man havoc squad with anything short of lascannons/missiles.

But we're talking about air coming on and sweeping them off the board and the unit of greatest discontent carries 3 TL lascannons.

In any case the point is to make them jink and flakk does that more reliably.
4 shots, 2.66 hits, .89 hps, .59 after jink - 175 for 5, 214 for 8
versus
8 shots, 1.33 hits, .44 hps, .30 after jink - 115 for 5, 154 for 8

I don't know where the other guy got his numbers, but that is 100% more hps for 52% more points - and even more effective when factoring ablative wounds.

That frees up your heavy slots for something that doesn't fire just landraider polishing ammo.

Charistoph
29-10-2012, 17:56
Crazy thought, but why not put Flavoks in the ADL and get the best of both worlds? Then there are Allied Hydra Tanks as another option.

But then, if I bring a horde of Marines with no Melta, Fists, Missiles, or Lascannon, should I really whine about Monoliths and Land Raiders?

Vaktathi
29-10-2012, 17:58
Most likely you're still killing Land Raiders with meltaguns either way, and even with HP's, krak missiles are desperation fire, so not a huge loss there.

If you look at what else you can take with the savings on the AC's over the ML's, then that whole equation changes.

Ozendorph
29-10-2012, 18:12
ITT I learned that in Kentucky, people able to perform simple math in their heads are known as "optomizers"

I wonder at this point if flyers (particularly AV12 flying tanks) are simply going to dominate this entire edition, or if future codices will contain real answers and CSM will be the odd men out

Daedalus81
29-10-2012, 18:22
If you look at what else you can take with the savings on the AC's over the ML's, then that whole equation changes.


I'm not seeing a massive savings. Yes, 3 flakk units translates to 3 AC units and a heldrake in points, but that completely ignore the cost effectiveness of flakk. I would never in a million years fill up my HS with 3 flakk units. One? Absolutely.

More food for thought :

Chance for 4 Flakk shots to hit : ~20%
Chance for 4 of 8 AC shots to hit : ~2.5%



I wonder at this point if flyers (particularly AV12 flying tanks) are simply going to dominate this entire edition, or if future codices will contain real answers and CSM will be the odd men out


A laughable statement and CSM will not be the odd man out. They have the answers they need for air. Play for the jink and move on. If you get a wreck - great - if not its almost a flying brick.

Ozendorph
29-10-2012, 18:46
Is it? Play against an army with 3 Vendettas (what is that, 390?) using an all-comers CSM list at 2000pts (or 1999, as it seems to be going around here) and let me know how that works out for ya. "Optomize" away, for best results.

Vaktathi
29-10-2012, 18:49
I'm not seeing a massive savings. Yes, 3 flakk units translates to 3 AC units and a heldrake in points, but that completely ignore the cost effectiveness of flakk. I would never in a million years fill up my HS with 3 flakk units. One? Absolutely. In that case you could afford a quad gun on top of the AC's assuming you'd gotten an aegis line for your havocs, there's a lot you can do with 60pts.



More food for thought :

Chance for 4 Flakk shots to hit : ~20%
Chance for 4 of 8 AC shots to hit : ~2.5% sounds about right, and I'm not arguing that the Flakks are better on this basis, only that the difference in cost allows you to field a force with similar AA abilities and better overall utility.




A laughable statement and CSM will not be the odd man out. They have the answers they need for air. Play for the jink and move on. If you get a wreck - great - if not its almost a flying brick.So essentially they have to settle for not killing flyers and hope we just force jinks so they can't shoot as well (considering many sport TL'd weapons they're still not awful)? Not exactly a great state of affairs, especially considering they're usually fairly similar to ground tanks which are far more vulnerable and easy to destroy and aren't much (if at all) cheaper.

Then you get things like the Heldrake that aren't going to care about jinking :p

IcedCrow
29-10-2012, 18:51
ITT I learned that in Kentucky, people able to perform simple math in their heads are known as "optomizers"

I am pretty sure we all know that "the ability to perform simple math" is a special ability that most people that play the game know how to do and has nothing to do with "optomizing/powergaming". :shifty:

Daedalus81
29-10-2012, 19:09
So essentially they have to settle for not killing flyers and hope we just force jinks so they can't shoot as well (considering many sport TL'd weapons they're still not awful)? Not exactly a great state of affairs, especially considering they're usually fairly similar to ground tanks which are far more vulnerable and easy to destroy and aren't much (if at all) cheaper.

Then you get things like the Heldrake that aren't going to care about jinking


We don't have to settle for it, but its the best option considering 3 hull point fliers. If I focus two squads at one Vendetta I could maybe scratch a couple hull points off and its still in the air. If each unit got a different flyer to jink it is equivalent to taking one out of action.

Yes, the Heldrake is a tough target, but is costed reasonably well.

We're putting the cart before the horse when we use the Vendetta as our base line. They will balance it all out eventually - if they don't then i'll eat my hat.

IAMNOTHERE
29-10-2012, 19:38
So the "solution" to flyers is to jinklock them instead of taking them out?

Stormravens and Heldrakes aside, are any other fliers bothered by this? Orks and IG maybe; Necrons and living metal?

When do you choose to jink? After the to hit roll or after the penetration roll? I'd rather risk the odd high strength shot than lots of weak ones.

UberlordGendo
29-10-2012, 20:18
Should work on all of them, since forcing evasive maneuvers is not equivalent to stun locking, ie nobody has special rules to protect them from it. The Dark Eldar have a fighter that also can vector strike as well, I think.

Daedalus81
29-10-2012, 20:18
So the "solution" to flyers is to jinklock them instead of taking them out?

Stormravens and Heldrakes aside, are any other fliers bothered by this? Orks and IG maybe; Necrons and living metal?

When do you choose to jink? After the to hit roll or after the penetration roll? I'd rather risk the odd high strength shot than lots of weak ones.

Yes - if you're facing multiple AV12 3 HP fliers.

After the pen roll. So, if its only a glance they can choose to just take it. It forces some interesting choices. They can either take the hull point and risk losing the flyer later on or gamble on a 1/3 shot of saving it. At some point they are going to need to try and save those glances.

Vaktathi
29-10-2012, 20:45
We don't have to settle for it, but its the best option considering 3 hull point fliers. If I focus two squads at one Vendetta I could maybe scratch a couple hull points off and its still in the air. If each unit got a different flyer to jink it is equivalent to taking one out of action.I get it, and as far as the current situation goes it's not bad, it's just that it's still somewhat silly given most flyers costs and how hard they are to kill relative to ground equivalents :p



Yes, the Heldrake is a tough target, but is costed reasonably well. I'd agree it's a lot more reasonable than most other flyers, but is still far and away more resilient than say, a hellhound with similar armament (and lacking Ap3) and a couple pieces of wargear (dozer blade, smoke, maybe something else) for only say 20something point difference.




We're putting the cart before the horse when we use the Vendetta as our base line. They will balance it all out eventually - if they don't then i'll eat my hat.Right, the Vendetta is a bit off, but many flyers have twin linked weapons, the NightScythe isn't much off from the vendetta in terms of sillyness (weaker weapons and lighter armor, but even higher hit rate and more damage mitigation, passengers completely safe, cheaper, and available as a dedicated transport).

Daedalus81
30-10-2012, 15:52
Sorry correction about my statement on evade...it IS before pen rolls, so its a harder choice to make for fliers.

Gorsameth
30-10-2012, 16:16
Sorry correction about my statement on evade...it IS before pen rolls, so its a harder choice to make for fliers.

Its not actualy that hard of a choise. str 7 and lack of ap 1-2 means that you can safely take hits while your on 2 HP or more.

Daedalus81
30-10-2012, 16:42
Its not actualy that hard of a choise. str 7 and lack of ap 1-2 means that you can safely take hits while your on 2 HP or more.

You have 3 HP and take 3 hits. Do you choose to jink or not? I have a 1 in 4 chance of scoring at least 2 glances.

Ozendorph
31-10-2012, 15:02
A 25% chance of 2 glances on a 3hp vehicle? I'd take that to dish out 3 TL lascannon shots the following turn. I think id only jink in that scenario if i was planning to fly off table.

Gorsameth
31-10-2012, 21:31
You have 3 HP and take 3 hits. Do you choose to jink or not? I have a 1 in 4 chance of scoring at least 2 glances.

Yes i would take the hits every single time. the chance of all 3 str 7 hits rolling a 5+ is ~4%?

IAMNOTHERE
01-11-2012, 00:42
And with POTMS you still get to fire at full BS any way.