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King Arthur
04-11-2012, 11:26
My friend who I play against regularly has a awsome death star combo and wanted your thoughts upon it.

He has
-50-70 clan rats FC
-A Bsb with a shield halberd and razor standard
-A warlord with either a ogre blade or sword or anti heroes and enchanted shield and dragon helm then protecting him with a 5++ on both/ or uses queek headtaker.
-A grey seer with crown of command or usually just uses a level 2 warlock engineer with crown of command
He hides the Grey seer/warlock engineer and the Bsb and usually casts death frenzy on the unit, I have only beaten it once and been very close a few times.:cries:

Quinzy
04-11-2012, 12:32
That sounds like a nice, nasty unit indeed.

What army do you field? Do you have artillery? How big or powerful are the units you are using to fight this unit? Why are you engaging this unit in combat? What spellcasters are you fielding? What lores? What equipment? Have you been allocating attacks against characters?

Don Zeko
04-11-2012, 14:35
How does he hide the Grey Seer or BSB if he's running this as a horde?

Warlord Gnashgrod
04-11-2012, 19:35
Well, first of all be aware that the rules state for frenzy that you do not get the shield parry save if the unit is frenzied. So in hth all he will get is the 5+ armor save, no additional 6+ ward. Also, I don't know why he had both a halberd and a shield on his bsb. they're useless together. you cant use a shield with a halberd. And if the unit is in horde formation, as Don Zeko said, the characters can't hide in a second rank. As for all Skaven units, template weapons will be it's bane as well. I would advise investing in some if you can take them. Also, make sure he remembers to take his D6 casualties for Death Frenzy at the end of each of his turns.

Also, as the unit is frenied, you can try redirecting it around with very small units. Put a small expendable unit directly in front of it at an angle so that if he charges it then the pursuit/overrun movement will take him away from the more valuable parts of your army. If he wins and you break, he must pursue because of frenzy. If he wipes the unit out, then he must overrun because of frenzy. Even if he doesn't take the bait, it will slow this unit down considerably. And there's always the chance he will be forced to take the bait by failing the LD test to not charge.

Quinzy has very good advice above as well.

TheDungen
04-11-2012, 20:06
"if the enemy makes an unkillable character, dont try to kill it"/ some wd guy during warhammer 5th edition. i guess the same goes for units

dementian
05-11-2012, 04:01
My friend who I play against regularly has a awsome death star combo and wanted your thoughts upon it.

He has
-50-70 clan rats FC
-A Bsb with a shield halberd and razor standard
-A warlord with either a ogre blade or sword or anti heroes and enchanted shield and dragon helm then protecting him with a 5++ on both/ or uses queek headtaker.
-A grey seer with crown of command or usually just uses a level 2 warlock engineer with crown of command
He hides the Grey seer/warlock engineer and the Bsb and usually casts death frenzy on the unit, I have only beaten it once and been very close a few times.:cries:

Couple things. First of all it would be good to know what armies you are using when playing against this Skaven list.

Depending on if you are able to: Take Lore of Life and hit the unit with Dwellers Below. Now that 50-70 models is down to 25-35. As well as having a 50:50 chance to kill the Grey Seer/Engineer. And a 1/3 chance of killing the BSB/Warlord. With this spell you not only neutered his (probably) biggest combat block you have also killed his leadership and the rest of his army will probably melt away.

Also like Don Zeko asked. How is he hiding away his characters. If this unit is a Horde (like you mentioned) there is 3 models of 10 for full command and then the Warlord, BSB, and Seer/Engi would need to also fit in the front row. If he is only running 5 wide there would still need to be either the BSB or Seer/Engi in the front row.

Also making use of the terrain features, if you can catch the unit at least partially in a river means that the unit cannot claim rank bonus (p. 120) and would be testing on rerollable leadership 7. Much nicer than rerollable leadership 10 no?

Other options to use against the unit (or Skaven in general). Aim to take out his General/BSB. Use of sniping spells from Lore of Death are huge.

TheDungen
05-11-2012, 05:20
oh sorry the quote is "There's no point in making an unkillable character if the enemy can win without killing it" same goes for units. avoid the deathstar, tarpit it or misdirect it. Or whipe it of the board with magic or artillery.

Metacarpi
05-11-2012, 07:29
He has all his character units in a Clanrat bunker?

I'd be terrified of doing that, because my opponents would just drop templates/dwellers etc on it until it was a little ratty smear on the gaming board.

warplock
05-11-2012, 08:01
I wouldn't worry too much about that unit. It has a lot of S3 attacks, sure, but low ws and no rerolls to hit. The characters are mediocre and don't do much to up their killing power. Id like to know what units you've been sending against it, because the problem is this unit will mince most other cheap or core units in the game due to its high amount of attacks. You just have to send something in which outclasses them- anything T4 with a decent save should murder them, especially as the rats take additional d6 casualties per turn from the spell.
You should be able to kill the bsb easily, he only has 5+ armour and 5+ ward. The warlord is illegal- he has two magic armours.

Tuttivillus
05-11-2012, 10:36
I've seen similar combo : 40 Queekheadtaker upgraded Stormvermin with razor standard and said Queek. They are a bane against everything armoured. My Steamtank managed to melt them to 20 before he died after a couple rounds of combat. Thanks to Sigmar for Stanks :)

lordlorien
05-11-2012, 11:36
I've seen similar combo : 40 Queekheadtaker upgraded Stormvermin with razor standard and said Queek. They...

Well that unit I would be a little scared of really ;). Even though in terms of Skaven it is really really expensive. The unit the OP mentioned I cannot really see what is so dangerous about. If fielded in 5-ranks they dont attack much. If fielded in horde formation the characters die to pretty much everthing that would oppose that unit in combat. After that it is only too expensive slaves ;).

T9nv3
05-11-2012, 15:47
This unit just feels like a huge liability. I ran a list with about 60 spearmen once (at the start of 8th ed)....it got dwellered and shot down to about 11 before it even got into combat. Needless to say I never did that again.

Meatballer
05-11-2012, 17:00
The clanrats are more scared of you than you are of them. ;) I would do my best to get in on their flank at the same time as their front. Skaven lose Strength in Numbers when disrupted. Also, templates are nice. Stone throwers and fire throwers will have trouble missing a target that size. Plus mega-spells. And maybe try out ETC comp or some such, because 70 dude units are kinda lame.

russellmoo
06-11-2012, 17:40
To the front of the unit send in a high toughness unit- T5 or better, or failing that send in a T4 unit and cast Enfeebling foe, something with a regen save would be excellent as well- once the unit is engaged to the front with a unit that is not giving up combat res, another unit moves in on the side to flank, and win combat- the goal of the unit in front is to kill Queek or the BSB- that way he will either be Ld 7 re-rollable, or LD8 without a re-roll

I also agree that Dwellers is your friend- as is any toughness buff- Skaven have a hard time dealing with high toughness-

BlackPawl
06-11-2012, 17:57
That's no deathstar - not even close!

And I think skaven can do many (evel) things, but no real deathstars ...

A good equipped Vampire lord / Chaos lord / Ogre lord / Minotaur lord ... will kill the characters really easy. Nearly ANY lord choice with the sword of anti-hereos will get +3 attacks and +3 s when he fights this unit! A savage orc big boss will have 8 attacks s8 int the first round. A High elf lord (or his dark brother) will get 7 attacks s7 - but with rerolls.

And as the others said before, he can not hide the BSB or the grey seer, so they will be dead in the first round of combat.

jtrowell
07-11-2012, 08:36
Also, note that Queek does not trust Grey Seers, and will not accept being put in the same unit as one (If I remenber his special rules correctly).

King Arthur
10-11-2012, 14:32
I play brets so usually double trebuchet but my knights of course only have a 3 wide frontage so can t reach more than 1 hero I play 15knights BSb with charmed shield sword of might and dawnstone and a prophetess beasts with crown of command it gets tarpitted and crushed I may cchange my prophetess to beasts.

envy
10-11-2012, 17:42
My regular WoC buddy runs 2 Hellcannons in his 2500 list.

He would love to face that unit.

SevenSins
11-11-2012, 08:48
Yeah not a death star as such, he'd be better of putting the seer and bsb in a bunker behind the horde and being skaven two hordes of 50 clanrats aren't all that hard to get ;) can still stuff in a few chapish warlords if needed, and with rat darts etc he can pick his fights.

Am I giving advice to the wrong side btw?