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misterdance
11-11-2012, 18:46
As a thought experiment, I'm toying with the idea of writing rules for legendary characters from each army. I've had Sigmar pretty much fleshed out since reading Heldenhammer when it came out years ago; and have my eye on Nagash, Aenarion and the like. What are some legendary heroes that you would like to see GW make rules for? What are some epic battles you've always dreamed of recreating? What are some characters that have had rules in the past that are no longer in the army books?

Laniston
11-11-2012, 18:53
There was a high elf loremaster of saphery named Belanaer who was awesome from the old... 5th edition high elf book I think.

SimaoSegunda
11-11-2012, 19:01
Magnus the Pious was in one of the old Empire books (the first Army Book I ever got). They used to have Ariel in one of the old Wood Elf books, too. And the Everqueen in High Elves.

The Low King
11-11-2012, 20:11
None of them. Just trying to represent them in game would be crazy and if you dont make them live up to their fluff whats the point? Not to mention that a balanced points cost for them would have to be in the thousands.
Aenarion: Killed Greater Daemons with a single blow, beat 4 Exalted Greater Daemons at the same time. Weilds the most powerful weapon of all time.
Sigmar: A God
Nagash: The greatest necromancer ever, destroyed an entire kingdom with a single spell. The Greatest (un)living vampires fight over a single item that belonged to him, his servant in one of the most powerful wizards in all the current books.

How do you represent that in game?

Urgat
11-11-2012, 20:52
Aenarion: Killed Greater Daemons with a single blow, beat 4 Exalted Greater Daemons at the same time. Weilds the most powerful weapon of all time.
No, not really, no. Thanks to his dragon, they somehow won, but that was a really close call, the keeper crushed his ribs (mortally wounding him), the bloodthirster mortaly wounded the dragon, and the ultimate weapon of doom proved unable to wound the GUO, which would have eaten the elf alive if the dragon didn't toast it first. I'd like the misconceptions about Aenarion put to rest, after all that time... It's all in the HE AB, 5th ed, very detailled, and Aenarion basically died in that fight, he only managed to last a while longer because the story needed a conclusion.


Sigmar: A God
Nagash: The greatest necromancer ever, destroyed an entire kingdom with a single spell. The Greatest (un)living vampires fight over a single item that belonged to him, his servant in one of the most powerful wizards in all the current books.

How do you represent that in game?
We had Nagash in 5th ed. We still have Mazdamundi and Lord Kroak (sp?) who are on the same level. I wouldn't put Archaon, Teclis, Malekith and so on under their level either. Now I agree they're really not up to their fluff though (Well, Nagash and co in 5th ed were nasty alright. A Nagash hand of dust'ing anything would kill it right away), what I'd like to see is this guys classed in a new class of characters above lords, would be legendary character, cost at least 1000 pts with rules that fit tehir fluff, and be available only for grand armies. Storm of Magic, with its spells and crazy magic items, gives a good idea of what kind of rules they'd get.

Leogun_91
11-11-2012, 20:55
None of them. Just trying to represent them in game would be crazy and if you dont make them live up to their fluff whats the point? Not to mention that a balanced points cost for them would have to be in the thousands.
Aenarion: Killed Greater Daemons with a single blow, beat 4 Exalted Greater Daemons at the same time. Weilds the most powerful weapon of all time.
Sigmar: A God
Nagash: The greatest necromancer ever, destroyed an entire kingdom with a single spell. The Greatest (un)living vampires fight over a single item that belonged to him, his servant in one of the most powerful wizards in all the current books.

How do you represent that in game?First of all, it wouldn't be legendary if it was easy for them to do it, making their most legendary deeds something that they could pull of during a battle but that you shouldn't count on them doing would give you a good enough representation.
Aenarion with the sword of Khaine and his dragon defeated four greater daemons. A tooled up elf prince on stardragon can take on a greater daemon with a fair chance of winning as it is so we have a fairly good starting point. We start by making the sword of khaine what it should be, a godslayer, multiple wounds d6, no saves of any kinds and re-roll to wound, that makes it an ideal weapon for taking out greater daemons and a good blade against daemons overall. Then for stats, +2WS, +1S, +2W, +2I and +2A would make him a true monster quite able to destroy greater daemons with his most epic sword. For his mount let's just put him on a Great Fire Dragon and be done with it, that beast can give a proper beatdown to a greater daemon, Aenarion then gets a 4+ ward for being blessed and I think we have a decent representation. He should not be hard to fit in against an army fielding 4 greater daemons either.

Sigmar never quite reached the same degree of extreme slaying that Aenarion did but on the other hand he didn't sacrifice himself to a god for arcane power, he's just the paragon of human strength and badass. The empires best warrior at the moment is Kurt Hellborg so let's use a Kurt Hellborg with Ghal-Mharaz as our base, this is already a quite dangerous foe but not enough, obviously Sigmar would need Ld10 and an increased aura of command in order to represent the loyalty he got in...well everyone basically.Sigmar does however strain the borders of mortal possibility further so lets give him +1 in all stats, this should represent well enough the best a human can get without magical power. With these rules he should actually be able to do the things he does in the legends on the tabletop, though we must remember that his abilities as leader on and off the battlefield is what really makes him shine.

Nagash is trickier, he is a great wizard who should have monstrous stats, let's use a lord of change for our base. These are great stats but Sigmar above should be more than able to strike him down and it's not a far stretch to take a mortal human lord choice with the fellblade and kill him, that's good, that's how we want it.
Ofcourse he will have a magic artefact making him level 5 just as Arkhan has and he should probably have another one that gives him +1 to cast and dispel. He should have loremaster for Vampires, Nehekaran and Death and a special rule that lets him count all his troops as Nehekaran Undead/Undead for the effects of the lores. Give him another special rule for spellcasting and I think he's quite fitting fluffwise. Ofcourse he would be allowed to mix units from Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts with special rules for what he gets to choose.

Why
11-11-2012, 20:55
The one I would like to see have rules already has them. I just wish they were better, as is he can get beaten out by a handful of bloodletters, also his shooting is terrible and he has the most retarded break test sytem in the game.

I speak of the one and only Orion.

misterdance
11-11-2012, 21:07
Here's what I got for Sigmar. I took Karl Franz, kitted him the way Sigmar would have been kitted (and adjusted the points accordingly). Then I bumped his WS to 7. I'll also include my rules for Legendary Generals. Oh, and this is for 4000+ point games with some really wacky new special rules: Wizard Cabals, Outflanking, Flyers flying high, Devastating (but risky) Cavalry charges, Shield Wall charge reaction, adopting Phalanx position (still ironing out those last two).

Sigmar Heldenhammer (Infantry, Legendary Character) 400 points
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 7 5 4 4 4 6 4 10
Equipment:
Full Plate Armour
Hand Weapon
May take a Barded Warhorse (24 points)

Magic Items:
Ghal Maraz

Special Rules:
Hold the Line!
Immune to Psychology
Leader of Men
The God King

The God King. Destined to become the ruler of a united Empire of Men, Sigmar Heldenhammer has a 4+ Ward Save and Magic Resistance (2).

SIGMAR'S HAMMER - Army Selection
Sigmar's Hammer is the name of Sigmar's army that he lead into Blackfire Pass. As this army was at the birth of the Empire, a lot of technology was not available at the time. Thus, an Empire army that wishes to use Sigmar as its Legendary General must use the following rules for army selection.

The Legendary General
Every army must always include at least one Lord or Special Character to be its Legendary General. This character has the following rules:

Legendary Presence. The general's Inspiring Presence range is doubled.
Legendary Artefacts. Any non-Special Character general may select 200 points of magic items, following all other restrictions, instead of 100 points.
Legendary Wizard. Any Wizard, regardless of Wizard Level, chosen as a Legendary General has the Loremaster special rule.
Death of a Legend. If your Legendary General dies, every unit that can, must take a Panic test at the end of the phase. All units in close combat will suffer -1 Combat Resolution in their next combat phase (or current if the General is killed during the combat phase). Units that are Immune to Psychology are not affected.
Legendary Traits. After selecting armies and before deployment, each General may roll on one of three Legendary Trait tables: Commander, Heroic, and Tactician

Antipathy
11-11-2012, 21:54
The Vampire Progenitors; Abhorash, Vashanesh, Neferata, Ushoran, and W'Soran.

Also, I'd like to see Zacharias return; a second generation Necrarch.

Griefbringer
11-11-2012, 22:07
As mentioned, Nagash used to have rules in the 4th edition undead army book.

There was even a model released for him, and I have held one in my hands.

TheDungen
11-11-2012, 22:15
none i dont even like special characters. they can never be as good as they are in the fluff on the battlefield. even less so sigmar and aenarion.

Gork or Possibly Mork
11-11-2012, 22:20
How about Grom the greatest goblin of all time. Except without Silly Nibblet

misterdance
12-11-2012, 00:27
Here's the big guy himself. Courtesy of the 4th edition rulebook (with a healthy facelift).

Nagash the Great Necromancer (Monstrous Infantry, Legendary Character) 850 points
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 7 7 8 7 7 6 6 10

Magic: Nagash is a Level 4 Wizard. He has Loremaster (Vampires, Death, and Shadow). He must be your army's Legendary General.

Special Rules: Immune to Psychology, Terror, Undead, The Great Necromancer

Magic Items:
Mortis, the Great Blade of Death
Black Armour of Nagash
Book of Nagash
Staff of Power

The Great Necromancer. Nagash is able to use Invocation of Nehek to increase any undead unit beyond their starting size. His Legendary Presence is also 36".

Mortis, the Great Blade of Death. +1 Strength (already in his statline). In addition, Nagash regains one wound for each unsaved wound inflicted by the blade up to his maximum Wound characteristic.

Black Armour of Nagash. 4+ Armour Save, not subject to Armour Save modifiers (will always receive a 4+ Armour Save, even if no armour saves are normally allowed).

Book of Nagash. Whilst Nagash has the Book of Nagash, his Wizard Level is increased to 5. If the Book of Nagash is ever destroyed, Nagash immediately loses a Wizard Level.

Staff of Power. The staff allows Nagash to channel power/dispel dice on a 5+. In addition, he may reroll up to 2 dice when he rolls for the Winds of Magic.

ARMIES OF UNDEAD - Army Selection
Nagash commands the legions of undeath like no other. Thus, any army that has Nagash as its Legendary General may select units (following normal unit restrictions) from both Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts and Warhammer Armies: Tomb Kings, except for a Hierophant. When Nagash is slain, use the Slain General rule under Generals of Undeath in Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts. Note that all spells and effects that target Undead units also includes Nehekharan Undead units.

Kayosiv
12-11-2012, 01:36
I'd like to see Walach, the most potent student of Abhorash. He is even specifically mentioned by name in Konrad's section of the book.

7th and 8th edition vampire books have been nothing but Von Carstine Vampires for their special characters.

7th edition had Vlad (Von Carstine), Isabella (Von Carstine), Konrad (Von Carstine), and TWO version of Manfred who are... you guessed it, Von Carstine vampires. Hey also guess what, THEY ARE ALL DEAD. That's right, of all the special vampire characters, only the lord level version of Manfred exists in the current timeline.

8th doesn't do anything about this. It just adds A necromancer and wight king special character and leaves us with the same 4.5 Von Carstine characters that were in the last edition. What about Lahmina, Strigoi, Blood Dragon, and Necrarch Vampires? Zacharias, Melkior, Nefarata; the list goes on.

Variety of vampires has been something that has sorely been missing from the newer books.

misterdance
12-11-2012, 02:58
Interestingly enough, since people are complaining about representing the Legends rulewise, I decided to throw some dice.

Sigmar vs. Nagash in a straight up fisticuffs. There were some pretty nail-biting rounds. There were a couple matches when they killed each other at the same time, but for the most part Nagash won most of them (though it was close a lot of times). I'm not surprised at all, given Nagash is practically a god and Sigmar is just a man (an extraordinary man nonetheless) - oh, and the necromancer costs twice the points of the barbarian king. And I just realized Sigmar's horse didn't make any attacks! (Though I had managed to remember Nagash's stomp attack).

A smart general would not go head-to-head against Nagash. He would wait while Nagash took some wounds from miscasts; the rest of Sigmar's army would decimate Nagash's undead host around the epic duel and may crumble due to combat res. Nagash could throw some magic at Sigmar, but he has a 2+ Ward Save from magic. I also have rules for King Marbad of the Endals who will take Sigmar's fatal wound on a 2+ if he is within 6".

Although balance is good to strive for, I'm going for a more cinematic, epic feel. And just plugging out two legendary heroes, I think I managed both balance and cinematic feel quite well.

trotsky
12-11-2012, 04:08
Caledor Dragontamer! Basically Teclis on a star dragon :)

Ville
12-11-2012, 07:57
I've been stumped why GW hasn't made better use of Neferata, the queen of vampires and the first (and most powerful?) of their kind. I mean, she is active and living in the Old World, yet we don't get anything. Recent VC armybooks have ignored a lot of the Vampire fluff and instead focused solely on Von Carsteins. There's nothing wrong with them, but I believe the Vampire lore could offer a whole lot more.

The Low King
12-11-2012, 09:03
No, not really, no. Thanks to his dragon, they somehow won, but that was a really close call, the keeper crushed his ribs (mortally wounding him), the bloodthirster mortaly wounded the dragon, and the ultimate weapon of doom proved unable to wound the GUO, which would have eaten the elf alive if the dragon didn't toast it first. I'd like the misconceptions about Aenarion put to rest, after all that time... It's all in the HE AB, 5th ed, very detailled, and Aenarion basically died in that fight, he only managed to last a while longer because the story needed a conclusion.

They still won against 4 Exalted Greater Daemons, 'the most powerful of their kind'


We had Nagash in 5th ed. We still have Mazdamundi and Lord Kroak (sp?) who are on the same level. I wouldn't put Archaon, Teclis, Malekith and so on under their level either. Now I agree they're really not up to their fluff though (Well, Nagash and co in 5th ed were nasty alright. A Nagash hand of dust'ing anything would kill it right away), what I'd like to see is this guys classed in a new class of characters above lords, would be legendary character, cost at least 1000 pts with rules that fit tehir fluff, and be available only for grand armies. Storm of Magic, with its spells and crazy magic items, gives a good idea of what kind of rules they'd get.

As i said, they would be crazy if you represented them on the field. At 1500 points each to use i would rather GW did something else with their time, and that was the question asked; 'What are some legendary heroes that you would like to see GW make rules for?'.

Now...warhammer forge releasing a series of books that had rules for them like (i think) they are doing with the Horus Heresy....that would be cool. Each book dedicated to one characters story or a cerain time period, giving us much more detail as well as armies for the time. The one thing i wouldnt want to see would be points costs though, i would simply say that any battles you used the characters in should be story battles, nothing it really balanced at that level so points costs are pointless (pun intended).


MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT.

All of those feel a bit of a letdown in terms of power to me.

One thing though: "Aenarion with the sword of Khaine and his dragon defeated four greater daemons.": they were not just greater Daemons, they were the greatest of their kind, ie, Exalted Greater Daemons (SoM book).

Griefbringer
12-11-2012, 09:06
How about Grom the greatest goblin of all time. Except without Silly Nibblet

He had rules published for him in Chronicles 2004.

BigbyWolf
12-11-2012, 09:15
Honestly? None of them. A games club I used to go to ran a campaign featuring all of them along with sizeable armies, and it just got boring having them run around decimating everything.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
12-11-2012, 10:25
I actually wonder how Grungni, Valaya and Grimnir would show up stat wise. They're arguably Old Ones, although it seems they were also just as much of the Dwarven race. Silly things.

Gromdal
12-11-2012, 11:08
I would like to see none. Warhammer is to fantastical as it is at the moment for my taste.

boli
12-11-2012, 11:21
I miss the fact Ariel was not included in the latest (although now outdated) wood elf book.

She always epitomized the other half of the wood elves; you had the savagery of the forest.... and the magic of the forest both of which changed the high elves from what they were to what they are now. The balance of Orien and Ariel were always paramount to me and I was disappointed not to see Ariel in the book.

Why
12-11-2012, 15:55
Don't worry in 3 years we'll have a new book and she'll have a fancy new model costing the equivalent of two boxes of bloodknights. She'll be as broken as Teclis and you'll have no choice but to buy her. And anyone who doesn't have wood elf army we'll wish they had held onto there's for a few more years, and then decide the want to get back into the army.

Then the new eddition comes out and she get's nerfed into the ground along with the rest of the book:rolleyes:


Back on topic, sorry for the rant.

There are some characters that should stay legends. They never should be seen on a table top unless you are playing a campaign ending with a 1000000 point battle. In those circumstances I could see them being fun. Otherwise they would just unbalance the game.

The last thing we need/want is for GW to come out with racial "God" models, that count as 1500 points but wreck everything they touch turning it into huge monster versus huge monster, how warhammer was back in 4th eddition. Where the army doesn't even matter/exist.

MasterSplinter
12-11-2012, 16:27
In my opinion it would be cool to see the power of those legendary charakters represented in rules in the army books, but only given the premise that you have to ask your opponent for using them (Generally i would like to go back to the state were you had to be allowed by your opponent for the use of special chars). And yes, if they are placed on the tabletop they should dominate the entire battlefield and the opposite army - but that only for a fun game.

For Tournamental games or competitive games i dont that its got much sense.
But by the army composition rules right now it would be almost impossible to play them, if you got a 1500 points Char your gamesize would be 6000 points, and that is, in my experience, a minor size of a game.

Wesser
12-11-2012, 16:50
Hold on guys... Sigmar has been written... though whether Valten is canon I don't know.

Sigmar wasn't known as a great tactician, and Valten's rules actually represent his inspirational worth really well.

His most pwerful incarnation complete with Ghal Maraz is probably pretty close to actual sigmar




Other things aside I'd rly like to see VC characters that are still alive instead of dead Von Carsteins...those are just no fun. I think we're more than a few who want Walach, Neferata and Melkhior back

Juicy21
12-11-2012, 17:39
Gilles le breton they say he is the green knight tho;)

Urgat
12-11-2012, 18:26
They still won against 4 Exalted Greater Daemons, 'the most powerful of their kind'
He hardly owned them singled-handedly, with his left hand, as you made it sound, which leads to-


As i said, they would be crazy if you represented them on the field. At 1500 points each to use i would rather GW did something else with their time, and that was the question asked; 'What are some legendary heroes that you would like to see GW make rules for?'.

Now...warhammer forge releasing a series of books that had rules for them like (i think) they are doing with the Horus Heresy....that would be cool. Each book dedicated to one characters story or a cerain time period, giving us much more detail as well as armies for the time. The one thing i wouldnt want to see would be points costs though, i would simply say that any battles you used the characters in should be story battles, nothing it really balanced at that level so points costs are pointless (pun intended).



All of those feel a bit of a letdown in terms of power to me.
I think you're totally overestimating them, in fact. Sigmar wasn't a god when he was alive. Everybody talks about Nagash because of a spell he probably spent months casting, with a ton of help and so on. Truth is, Nagash was beaten by a guy with a skaven weapon (a potent one, sure, but crafted by skavens, not a god's weapon), and Sigmar wasn't a killing machine who could beat armies by himself either. Compare that to the slaans during the demons incursion...


One thing though: "Aenarion with the sword of Khaine and his dragon defeated four greater daemons.": they were not just greater Daemons, they were the greatest of their kind, ie, Exalted Greater Daemons (SoM book).
So? Archaon beat four greater demons, in the dark, bare-handed, and w/o a dragon to help him. So who gets the most ridicul- her... over the top... no, not that either... who's the toughest boy, really? If we can have rules for Archaon, we can have rules for Aenarion, and they shouldn't be any better. Pretty sure if you could mount Grimgor on a moon dragon, he could own any of the SoM greater demons w/o much trouble, really. That would be quite sufficient to represent aenarion, if you add a rule to represent the thing about the sword that made him keep going on even though he should have technically died. Anyway, my honest opinion is that there is no rhyme nor reason to who can beat what, it depends on the author, on the moment it's been writen, on too many things. Remember Aenarion's fluff was written when greater demons all had stats equivalent to that of the SoM ones, and that back then you could make regular lords that would totally wipe the floor with anything we currently have. Fluff and rules are completely disconnected, they've always been.