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Cooper97
20-11-2012, 04:43
The Empire is an all round destroying machine. They have amazing foot soldiers, a range of fire power, cavalry, artillery and bucket loads of special units.

m1acca1551
20-11-2012, 05:15
The empire can be very deadly, they have a great synergy with army book lores, WP spells and unit rules... however in saying that... to get them to work well requires patience, careful planning and a great deal of luck. If lef unsupported they are really very weak and can be beaten very easily.

The current army book matches the fluff very well, a great disciplined ary backed up by powerfull warmachines, magic and weird and whacky inventions that can allow the army to go toe to toe with armies who are stronger, tougher, more numerous or skilled and beat them. If you happen to fail in your supporting actions... well yeah... your T3 troops are in for a rough day at the office

Jind_Singh
20-11-2012, 05:44
I think that the book is VERY diverse but the army is not! There was a slight points increase for most units overall with the new book - and it's very expensive to build a diverse army list with infantry, knights, warmachines - you can one or the other - sometimes squeeze in 2 of the 3 - but to build a decent and diverse force I feel is not as easy anymore

Lord Solar Plexus
20-11-2012, 05:44
The Empire is an all round destroying machine.

In my most diplomatic voice: That's a bunch of malarkey, Mr Cooper. ;)



They have amazing foot soldiers, a range of fire power, cavalry, artillery and bucket loads of special units.

True, they have INF, ART, CAV, and ARM, so it's a diverse book at first glance. This hypothetical diversity is however often squashed by the push and pull of certain builds. I swear that 90 percent of lists appear to be General/BSB, L4, Halbs, Archers, ICK, DGK, Cannon, Puckle Gun, STank, with the vast majority having a Shadow mage.

The other aspect you have interwoven in your question...answer...post about the power is often in direct relation to the wide range of support options. The infantry as such is not at all amazing. No statline of 3's is or ever was. It's purely the amount of priests, captains and luminarcs around that makes it worth the bother.

Cooper97
20-11-2012, 09:26
think whatever you want but the Empire is diverse. If you have a large empire army then you will understand. it is easy to make a diverse army ready for all opponents, ranging from the cavalry might of the Brettonians to the numerous Skaven, they are ready for the figt because they have a decent range of everything. Magic may not be a strong point of the Empires but at least we have wizards as well as so many champions. i still think they are a destroying machine.

BigbyWolf
20-11-2012, 10:39
Ever heard of the term "Jack of all trades, master of none"?

But, you go wrong in your first post, so that kind of nullifies the rest of your points:


The Empire is an all round destroying machine. They have amazing foot soldiers, a range of fire power, cavalry, artillery and bucket loads of special units.

They don't have amazing foot soldiers. They have average foot soldiers, That's what makes them The Empire.

You might be thinking of Space Marines.:yes:

Lord Solar Plexus
20-11-2012, 12:38
think whatever you want but the Empire is diverse.


Think what you want but it is not.

While that statement is not fully my opinion, I think it illustrates well the relevance of your "argument".



i still think they are a destroying machine.


I gathered as much, Cooper. May I suggest that you change the thread's title from a question into a statement then?

Thyphs
20-11-2012, 13:05
Think what you want but it is not.

While that statement is not fully my opinion, I think it illustrates well the relevance of your "argument".



I gathered as much, Cooper. May I suggest that you change the thread's title from a question into a statement then?

Exactly this - you open with a question then make a statement, then try to shout down anyone who disagrees .................

In my opinion there is diversity within the book....no doubt, but theres not alot of diversity within what is good in the army.

Does that make us less competative ....not really no

Infact the last 2 tournaments ive attended at Warhammer world have been won by Empire players .....

Kurisu313
20-11-2012, 13:10
Cooper, please stop making these childish threads with no content. There is a fan-clubs sub-forum is you wanna talk about things like this.

MyNameDidntFit
20-11-2012, 13:18
Think of it as "man, how good is that movie we both love, can you reinforce my opinion?" rather than, "how good is that movie, I genuinely want your opinion?" and it makes more sense ;)

Wesser
20-11-2012, 16:16
Empire isn't the diverse army people think.

The reason is that most of the units lean on the same crutches. Knights, state troops, greatswords are all dependant on hatred or hurricanum to be worth it. War machines heavily depends on engineers.

BS-shooters don't rly work at all.

Only flagellants and the steam tank work well on their own.

It isn't diversity when every unit depends on the same gimmicks to be functional

Boreas_NL
20-11-2012, 17:26
Well, as a seasoned Empire General I can vouch for the diversity of The Empire... Units range from crap, useless, total garbage to utterly horrible! See, more than enough diversity...

Now that I have gotten that out of my system... The current army book offers a lot of different unit entries (that could be easily percieved as diversity) but most of them are so overpriced, useless, totally dependant on others or a combination of those three that they aren't fit for gaming at all (be it competitive or friendly). There are very, very few units or builds that appeal to me (but that's a personal matter) and the new book has severely limited all the cool rules and options (weapon options, magic items, special rules)... You want real diversity? Try Empire 7th edition!

Montegue
20-11-2012, 17:50
No statline of 3's is or ever was. It's purely the amount of priests, captains and luminarcs around that makes it worth the bother.


I have to disagree strenuously. Halbrediers are the best bang-for-your-buck troop in the game. With the addition of a war priest and a hero, they become unstoppable in large groups. A group of 80 with two detachments of 40 becomes an almost insurmountable foe, especially since you can still have a level 4, some Demigriffs, and artillery in the mix.

warplock
20-11-2012, 18:09
Marauders beg to differ!

Wesser
20-11-2012, 22:12
I have to disagree strenuously. Halbrediers are the best bang-for-your-buck troop in the game. With the addition of a war priest and a hero, they become unstoppable in large groups. A group of 80 with two detachments of 40 becomes an almost insurmountable foe, especially since you can still have a level 4, some Demigriffs, and artillery in the mix.

Insurmountable? Kill the warrior priest. With no hatred and prayers what do you expect those halberdiers to achieve? Remember, on their own halberdiers are not average, but inferior rather than average(only bret peasants, skavenslaves and goblins are worse troops) and are considerably overpriced too.

It's not diversity when every unit needs the same gimmick to be useful.

People who really wants diversity should go play Skaven or Ogres... and a to a lesser extent Greenskins. Those armies at least have options. Empire don't rly...its all the same

Cooper97
20-11-2012, 22:17
Sure whatever I still win with my Empire army more than I ever lose so I'm sticking to my guns.

Cooper97
20-11-2012, 22:49
I also think that many other armies are diverse. I also agree with the fact that the foot troops are ok, not amazing but in big units they are solid walls of men.

Phazael
20-11-2012, 23:27
Empire can be built a number of ways, but the Infantry clusters backed by shooting and gun wagons is the best all arounder setup. And I think most state troops are competitively priced, when you consider their narrower frontage and easy access to synergy that is not dependant on the magic phase (buff wagons, hatred, ect). The issue with the list is its dependance on characters.

Cooper97
21-11-2012, 00:11
Well said. I agree with this. We do depend on characters to much. Thank you Phazael you make suff make sense

Lord Solar Plexus
21-11-2012, 14:05
I have to disagree strenuously. Halbrediers are the best bang-for-your-buck troop in the game. With the addition of a war priest and a hero, they become unstoppable in large groups.


Disagree with what? I've identified the Priests and Captains as the source of their strength. You identify the war priest and hero as the source of their strength. What are we fighting over? It's the buffs that make them work.



A group of 80 with two detachments of 40 becomes an almost insurmountable foe, especially since you can still have a level 4, some Demigriffs, and artillery in the mix.

You're not working for the Sales Department, Section "H" coincidentally? That's a bit like saying a group of 40 Chaos Warriors plus a 3k army is an insurmountable force...my 1,000 points of Corsairs or Slaves or Ghouls can relatively easily surmount that, especially since they can have a, b and c in addition quite easily.

What you have suggested might look daunting at first glance but it is slow, ponderous and one-dimensional. I know what I'm talking about, I field a similar list (150 INF, L4, L2, DGK, detachments, stuff) in my current league. :)

Rake
21-11-2012, 14:35
Have to agree with the crowd here to a large degree. The options empire has are many, but you cannot include all those options into one army. The real question for me is whether there are many different viable builds to the army. None of those will include all of the models in the range, but can be put together from the models in the Empire book.

To be honest, though, verstility has not been a strong point of ANY army in warhammer except for Dark Elves. Theyre one of very few ( i would say only but I an not thinking clearly ATM) that can play pure infantry, infantry shooting, or combined infantry/cav/shooting without shooting themselves in the foot for the sake of efficiency. I say this out of a LOT of experience with them and with the self imposed handicap of no pendant, no dagger, and no 2x Hydra.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-11-2012, 15:27
The options are certainly all there. The core section is probably double or triple the pages compared to some books. Having said that, many of these options are a wee bit illusionary. Take State Troops for example: The debate about what to take and what is best has been raging since at least the last ice age, and the same goes for which General, Crossbows or Handguns, GW or Lance knights. While in other books the book makes the decision for you - there simply aren't three choices for any particular spot -, the in-game differences are often marginal (which isn't bad per se).

However, the whole concept of this book means that the supporting infrastructure is larger and costlier and more...visible than ever before (let's not forget we did take Altars and Priests before). While the manner of support is more diverse, even a couple of games' experience will seperate the ballast from the precious cargo.

Lastly, diversity and winning aren't directly related. People won with the good aulde but hardly diverse GG + Drakenhoff + Ghoul list, too.

Thyphs
21-11-2012, 16:29
I also think that many other armies are diverse. I also agree with the fact that the foot troops are ok, not amazing but in big units they are solid walls of men.


They have amazing foot soldiers

Change you mind did you :P

Cooper97
21-11-2012, 22:27
Oh sorry, can't I heed advice and change my mind. I also changed my view because I was out when I wrote that they have amazing state troops and then went home and read my army book, checked some things and changed my mind. Apologies for the mixed messages.

GrandmasterWang
22-11-2012, 04:17
Empire are very diverse, only OnG can match them in that department.

The only thing they lack is monsterous infantry.

Boreas_NL
23-11-2012, 14:01
Empire are very diverse, only OnG can match them in that department.

The only thing they lack is monsterous infantry.
That, and a decent army book...

Duke Donald
23-11-2012, 14:39
I do not find the Empire army book that diverse. There are a lot of entries in the book but many represent subtle variations on the same theme. For instance, there is less variation between the core melee troops (halberdiers, swordsmen, spearmen and free company) than can be achieved by giving various weapons and marks to chaos marauders.

Askari
23-11-2012, 22:14
It's not diverse at all, some choices are so obviously better than others you just hamstring yourself by not taking them.

The only "diversity" comes from whether you prefer a Steam Tank or Luminark/Hurricanum, and if you prefer the Lore of Shadow or Lore of Light.

Want diversity in unit options that have equal value in an army - try Vampire Counts.

Cooper97
25-11-2012, 23:36
yeah the Vampire counts are diverse in many senses but i think you underestimate the diversity of the Empire. they have the ability to mould to different situations and fight different armies with the same amount of Force. also they do have many units that can only be ordered over the websites that are ridiculously good. When i was in warhammer world, Nottingham, I had a look at some of the rare units and they are so effective against everyone. You can buy miniatures such as the marienburg soldiers or whatever they are. i am pretty sure they are great. having said this they arent as good as they could be.

Macehands
26-11-2012, 01:03
It's true that some options are better than others, sometimes obviously so. Some players learn to win with what they have access to, rather than getting whatever the latest netlist dictates.

Cooper97
26-11-2012, 23:41
Yeah thats true. I have learnt to win with my Stirland army pretty well. It gives me the virsitility i need to be able to effectively attack when i need to and defend when i need to. I also have two steam tanks which are my most effective killing units. They have the ability to take out loads of single units in one shot. They also let me move into battle quick and give good fire coverage to my advancing units if they are rendered immobile.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-11-2012, 08:05
Ah, a Stirland army with two Steam Tanks. Lo and behold the diversity of using multiples of the best unit in the book. Cooper, with all due respect and in my most diplomatic voice: ...ah, rather not, I don't want an infraction. Play to the theme with loads of Spearmen and archers, show me the tourney wins, and you might convince me.



they have the ability to mould to different situations and fight different armies with the same amount of Force.


Almost everyone is able to tailor his lists. What exactly is so outstanding about the Empire?



also they do have many units that can only be ordered over the websites that are ridiculously good.


Name five of the many. Marienburg, are those the Forgeworld Gunners? They are not ridiculously good.

Kula
27-11-2012, 09:01
Diverse might be correct. They have loads of different options and ways to tackle the different elements of an enemy army. So in a pure gaming environment they can be very good, with the correct general. However, they are still humans in a fantasy world, making them slightly dull and uninteresting both fluff-wise and when playing with (atleast when I played them in 6th) and against them, atleast in my experience.

Thyphs
27-11-2012, 10:25
to prove LSP point - ill show you diverse.....

last weekend me and my mate won the fantasy doubles at warhammer world with Dual empire

Heres the diversity

Halberds
Demi Gryphon knights
Steam tanks

that is all..........

jtrowell
27-11-2012, 10:46
What ? No canons ? No priests, war altar or wizard mobile ? No 5 archers detachments to use as redirectors ? No knight except for the DG (that you could have used to fill your core) ? No Hellblaster ? No engineer ?

Lord Solar Plexus
27-11-2012, 12:53
Not even a General, jtrowell. :eek:

Let's assume he's giving us the gist of it, not a full army list, okay? Because you're proving the point as well, you're just elaborating on the standard copy & paste list that has been around since what, April? People can and do take other units for all kinds of reasons, and that's fine, but they do that with other books, too. I've seen Spawn, I've seen Jezzails, I've seen HE chariots, WoC fighter Lords and Slann-less Lizzies (I very rarely see Waltars and buff wagons so I'm not sure they belong to the net list).

To address the question in some more detail and acknowledge the shades and nuances, I understand that the guys at W-E have been running a couple of Tactical Decision Games via the forum with very different army lists: A game master hands it out as well as an opposing list from another faction that he runs. Members then team up and come up with moves and actions in a process of discussion; the GM then rolls the dice, moves the pieces and draws a new map. While they do use varied lists, they also have the advantage of pooling experience and knowledge and not having to make decisions on the spur of the moment or in the "heat of battle".

Thyphs
27-11-2012, 13:10
Not even a General, jtrowell. :eek:

Let's assume he's giving us the gist of it, not a full army list, okay? Because you're proving the point as well, you're just elaborating on the standard copy & paste list that has been around since what, April? People can and do take other units for all kinds of reasons, and that's fine, but they do that with other books, too. I've seen Spawn, I've seen Jezzails, I've seen HE chariots, WoC fighter Lords and Slann-less Lizzies (I very rarely see Waltars and buff wagons so I'm not sure they belong to the net list).



Indeed - i was re-affirming my point from earlier and indeed the one just above - diversity as far as using multiples of the best units in the book.

(Yes there was a wizard lord, warrior priest and captain bsb as well as a few archer detachments) however these are somewhat mainstay of most armies and therefore not even remotely diverse, if i said i had won with 2 engineers 3 witch hunters, and 200 spearmen with a Celestial Failicanium then no doubt id be paraded through the streets as the best general alive today....however even i have my limits :p

To remake my original point - yes the book is diverse, however what makes it work well and what makes it onto the final piece of paper is a somewhat smaller choice :)