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meanmachine
20-11-2012, 11:12
People are saying plague marines are the best troop choice in the chaos codex

but every time i try to make an army list around them i struggle because of their huge points tag.

8 plague marines with 2 plasma guns costs 270 points without a rhino

I could take 3 squads of 20 cultilsts for that same cost
stick in a apostle and the cultists are ld10

you could easily take 10 fully upgraded nurgle marines for the same cost and they dont need a specific h/q for scoring

are 8 plague marines really better than those 2 alternatives.
are 8 t5 feel no pain bodies always better than 60 t3 bodies spread out in 3 units

Culgore
20-11-2012, 11:55
Fearless and poisoned weapons. They aren't going to run away. They can step up to a monstrous creature. Cultists ranged firepower is laughable. Their "special" weapon is Str 4. Couple that with the champions of chaos rule, the Cultist Champion has to fight any sergeant in melee... without a special weapon... he just lost and LD 8 just became leadership 7. 60 wounds is going to go quick with no armor, and they are going to cause few wounds themselves

In the 10 Nurgle Marine example, if you compare to Feel No Pain Plague Marines, you end up a little better on the Plague Marine side. Figure that they will make 2.6 extra wounds due to feel no pain saves. So you end up with the POSSIBILITY of more wounds on the PM squad. Your plague Marine squad also has poisoned weapons(though are I3).

I would argue they are still better than those two choices.

CrownAxe
20-11-2012, 11:58
PM's also have fearless, defensive grenades, and plague knives to go with that FNP.

here is some math for you. from regular bolter fire (and lets say the cultists have 5+ cover)

its take 135 hits to kill 60 cultists (assuming you get 5+ cover)
its takes 108 hits to kill 8 plague marines

considering the cultists probably won't bein doing ny damage with just autopistols and a barely more survivable, i'd still go with the plague marines

meanmachine
20-11-2012, 12:04
thanks for the posts

so how do some people use plague marines

do you normally take typhue or a lord

typhus is good but he cant join as many units as a lord

I think the best place to put typhus is in a zombie unit because you have already spent over 200 points on him and around 400 points for a couple of plague marine troops

Caitsidhe
20-11-2012, 12:22
thanks for the posts
do you normally take typhue or a lord

This depends entirely on the size of the game and whether or not you are also taking a Nurgle DP w/Black Mace and maximum Disciplines. Points get tight and Typhus isn't cheap. Most games in my area are 1850 (or less) these days and I'm hearing that is becoming pretty much standard. Fitting both Typhus and the DP in is extremely expensive. I don't use Cultists and turn them into Zombies (I prefer IG allies for cheap objective holders). I don't like that Typhus is slow in combat (durable as hell but slow). The Destroyer Hive is awesome but often tends to do far less than you expect. You still have to get him to the optimal spot. He is a Sorcerer but when your DP is better at it there is redundancy. My test games crammed Typhus and the DP in together and I found it was overkill. I swapped down to a VERY cheap Nurgle Lord to make my Plague Marines scoring. He is essentially as he comes w/Gift of Mutation and the super flame thrower. :)

If you are not using the DP (although for the love of Nurgle why wouldn't you use the Nurgle DP w/Black Mace and Disciplines), Typhus fits better because you have more points, the sorcerer aspect is helpful again, and so on. Obviously in high point games with multiple Force Org, Typhus is easily selected.


typhus is good but he cant join as many units as a lord I think the best place to put typhus is in a zombie unit because you have already spent over 200 points on him and around 400 points for a couple of plague marine troops

Zombies are a difficult subject for me. I don't like them. I think losing the shooting is a devastating price to pay. When it comes to Zombies, it is "in for a penny... in for a pound." You might as well go all in if you are going to put Zombies out and saturate the damn board with them. That is how you get a return. Crappy Cultists with FNP and Fearless are still crappy cultists. :) I'd rather have guys that can go to ground behind my Aegis while they camp that objective. Typhus is Fearless and thus will give it to the Cultists if you have him join their unit without turning them into Zombies. Don't get me wrong. I like Typhus, but I think you have to BUILD around Typhus to truly get the best return on him. I like to build all-comer lists and building that with Typhus as your anchor is a difficult proposition at lower points.

Valorel
20-11-2012, 12:33
8 plague marines with 2 plasma guns costs 270 points without a rhino

I don't know how you get 270 points with 8 PM and 2 plasma, without a rhino... Are you sure you didn't mess up your maths? ;)

Firstdeath
20-11-2012, 12:42
You can take 5 PMs with 2 special weapons and a rhino for what, 190ish points? Cheap, durable and mobile way to get specials on the table. With typhus as a strong hq, and plague zombies as cheap and semi-durable home objective sitters, you're sitting pretty with minimal investment.

Fagerlund
20-11-2012, 12:46
Couple that with the champions of chaos rule, the Cultist Champion has to fight any sergeant in melee... without a special weapon... he just lost and LD 8 just became leadership 7.

Well, it's not certain.... in my last game I *did* forget about the Champion of Chaos rule for a moment and charged my opponents Librarian in Terminator armour with my Cultists hoping to swarm him in enough saves... and then when I had moved them in I realised I had to challenge and he couldn't even decline since his unit died to shooting... I was swearing and wanted to tear my codex up, but then the Librarian missed his attacks and thanks to the 5 re-rolls I caused 4 wounds and he failed one save losing his last wound... and the Champion turned into a Daemon Prince. Never say never... x)

On Plague Marines though, I haven't tried going only Plagues - but I usually take one squad and couple with other scoring units. The Plague Marines go for midfield objectives while the normal Marines/Cultists stay in the backfield. T5 really does help them stay alive (for me Feel no Pain is worthless as I never make those rolls anyway :P ) and more importantly since they're so known for being super-durable they drag a lot of fire and high strength shooting as well - saving the rest of your army from that.

malisteen
20-11-2012, 12:53
Plagues? They're certainly the best of the cult units. If they're troops, then they're probably the best troop unit in general, if not by as much as last time around, but they're expensive enough that you're still going to want to consider some cultists or zombies to fill in your overall numbers.

But again, they're not the best by nearly as much anymore. A generic squad of to CSMs with no mark and two plasma is a very good unit for its points cost, and ubergrit khornate or slaaneshi CSMs are good, too.

The main drawback of plagues is that you have to run a nurgle lord, and nurgle lords, while decent, aren't super great. Regular lords like to be khornate for the AP2 at initiative (something Chaos really struggles with). Nurgle sorcerers tend to outclass nurgle lords, imo, but they don't make plagues troops. Typhus is great, but he's also super expensive.

Are plague marines so much better than your other power armored options that they warrant taking a less effective HQ to unlock them as troops in the first place? Well, not so much, I think. If you're going for a nurgle theme anyway, such that you don't mind having to field a nurgle lord, then sure, plagues are great. If you're just taking an army of whatever's the most effective, then it's much more of a toss up.


But again, Plagues are by far the best of the cult units. Noise Marines, while potentially decent, aren't going to make you consider fielding a slaaneshii outside of a cult theme list, and 'zerkers aren't worth fielding even if you're taking a khorne lord anyway for the Axe of Blinding Fury. And tzeentch? Poor, poor tzeentch. Having to take a sorcerer with at least one power thrown away on the sub par tzeentch discipline in order to unlock horribly over-specialized and over-priced thousand sons squads. At least they've got the best in theme daemon support. For now, anyway.



In general, most Chaos armies that aren't fielding a particular alignment theme list should be quite satisfied running cultists and CSMs. Neither is great, but they're both at least functional, and not too expensive for what they do.

DaemonprincePaul
20-11-2012, 13:12
I have never quite understood the whole plague marines are still the best troops this editon as everytime i have used them so far they have dropped like flies (quite litrally)

DuskRaider
20-11-2012, 13:25
Yes... Plague Marines are honestly the best potential Troop unit you can have in a Chaos Space Marine army, if not the entire game. I've played Death Guard since 3rd and this is their best iteration yet, especially with the addition of Poisoned. They are expensive compared to other troops, but they more than make up for it. I usually field 4 squads of 7 and I can shrug off fire from most other combat squads. FNP is no longer 4+, so it's not a 50% chance any longer, but it works against more weapons, in addition to their base T5 (which was a problem in the last book). I suppose they'd even be safe in a Rhino moving up the board due to their higher endurance, but I've always footslogged.

In comparison, I've used Plague Zombies once in a game against Marines. Granted it's a lot harder to kill a Marine anyhow, but they were simply unable to effectively cause any damage in CC. What they really work for is meat shields and tying up enemy units until your more capable units (Plague Marines, Terminators, etc.) can move in and finish the enemy off. They are a great tarpit, though.

gwarsh41
20-11-2012, 13:45
Hey DuskRaider, have you tried the new Nurgle bikers yet?

DuskRaider
20-11-2012, 13:55
I have not, no. I don't really run Bikers or Raptors, they just don't fit into the fluff IMO.

gwarsh41
20-11-2012, 14:02
Ok, thanks for the response.

lordreaven448
20-11-2012, 14:02
For me it's 10 Khorne Marines with CCW, VotlW, 2 Melta guns, Champ with Powersword is only 223 points, and 233 for 2 Plasma Guns. It's a unit that can tackle anything and getting close to them leads to a nasty suprise.

DuskRaider
20-11-2012, 14:27
Honestly though gwarsh, they seem like they'd be really solid. Base T6 is nothing to scoff at, especially on a bike. I've been tempted to make Purge Bikers or something just to test them out, but I feel uncomfortable making DG Bikes. That and I see no reason why Motorcycles would be in the 41st Millenium... maybe Jetbike counts-as or something. I don't know.

malisteen
20-11-2012, 14:35
Plague bikes are really quite expensive, though. I'd lean more towards unmarked bikes in small squads, maybe khorne in larger squads. If I wanted super expensive bikes, I might go Slaanesh / IoE before nurgle. Nurgle bikes aren't bad, but... That price. I don't know if it's worth it.

damiengore
20-11-2012, 14:43
Plague marines are elites who can happen to score when you have an HQ with MoN. They should still be used like other elites and not troops. If you use them as troops your army will be small and elite (duh).
The best troops point for point are basic unupgraded CSM's, yes they are not fearless but you can put your fearless HQ in there, it is the best place for him.
Use upgrades on elites where they'll do more damage and use troops for massed anti-pers and ground taking.
What's the big plasma love all about? Why put plasma on troops? Bolters work wonders at killing 2+ saves!

DaemonprincePaul
20-11-2012, 14:44
Id argue chaos space marines with just bolter, bolt pistol mark of slaanesh icon of excess and 2 special weapons of whatever you want are better than plague marines

DuskRaider
20-11-2012, 15:19
I would still count Cult Units as troops. They were troops in the last book and very little has changed for them, stat wise.CSM are meant to be a small and elite army... although compared to other armies they don't really seem it, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Ssilmath
20-11-2012, 16:09
I disagree with that assessment, DuskRaider. Chaos Marines can make a small and elite army, but that is not the only thing they are supposed to be. It is quite possible to field a swarm of power armor, masses of cultists or mech spam. Of course, the viability of those lists and strategies rests entirely with your skill sets as a player and the local meta.

malisteen
20-11-2012, 16:29
Plague marines are elites who can happen to score when you have an HQ with MoN.

I'd disagree. The cult units are relatively "elite" troops, but they're not terminators or sternguard or the like. None of them are worth fielding as elites just for their abilities, if they aren't scoring they aren't worth taking, and they're mostly generalists that can really only go toe to toe with other generalists, so IMO they're still 'troops' quality models, to be used as troops and not as elites.


The best troops point for point are basic unupgraded CSM's, yes they are not fearless but you can put your fearless HQ in there, it is the best place for him.
I disagree here as well. Our fearless HQs are chaos lords and Apostles. The latter can be largely disregarded as a poorer version of the former, while the former is a melee monster and wants a retinue that can deliver him to the thick of combat most quickly - bikes being far and away the best option.

Unupgraded CSMs are great, but they're also the kind of unit that likes to sit on an objective behind a defense line and shoot at anything that comes close - not exactly the kind of unit you want to drop a melee-only HQ into. Better to support them with a sorcerer, or maybe even a warpsmith if you've got some vehicles camping out next to them, even if those HQs aren't fearless. If fearless is really that necessary, an Icon of Vengeance will give it to you a lot cheaper than a lord, and without burning an HQ slot.

Ubergrit CSMs are an arguably acceptable retinue for a lord, but they're sacrificing some points efficiency for those close combat weapons, and you're stuck either hoofing it or riding a rhino, which then means you have to drop a plasma to fit the HQ and... Meh. Lords ride with bikes.

Szafraniec
20-11-2012, 17:12
Plague Marines just give you so many benefits. The T5 means they'll pretty much always get their FnP. They can pack Plasma with a decent chance of avoiding Gets Hot. They are difficult to assault...you eat overwatch, blight grenades, and then get hit by poisoned weapons. They are fearless. They just have everything you want on troops. Nobody brings all that utility to a single unit.

I like cultists, but they lack offensive power. They are excellent screening units and area denial units, but they are not a swiss army knife. A group of Plague Marines can tool around in a Rhino and just make a mess wherever they go. 4 S7 plasma shots always has some utility. They can tie up a cc unit. They can screen something else. Or they can sit back and just deny an objective. If you have a Necron Flyer and you see Plague Marines guarding an objective, you are going to go somehwere else. You don't have the firepower in that Nightscythe to shift those guys.

I like normal CSM as well with little to no upgrades, but they just aren't as scary. You can force leadership tests. You have a better chance in assault due to no blight grenades or poisoned weapons.

DuskRaider
20-11-2012, 17:25
I disagree with that assessment, DuskRaider. Chaos Marines can make a small and elite army, but that is not the only thing they are supposed to be. It is quite possible to field a swarm of power armor, masses of cultists or mech spam. Of course, the viability of those lists and strategies rests entirely with your skill sets as a player and the local meta.

A swarm of Power Armor may sound cool or look cool, but that's about it. It's extremely expensive to spam Chaos Marines points wise as well. Cultists are worse. I'd rather take IG or Vraks allies and get something better who can take actual heavy or assault weapons. Honestly, it feels like Cultists are too little too late after the Allies Matrix was released. Mech spam is possible, at a high cost. Yeah, you can technically throw down 6 Land Raiders. Good luck finding the points. That and tanks just don't last like they used to (other than Land Raiders).

Ssilmath
20-11-2012, 17:40
A swarm of Power Armor may sound cool or look cool, but that's about it. It's extremely expensive to spam Chaos Marines points wise as well. Cultists are worse. I'd rather take IG or Vraks allies and get something better who can take actual heavy or assault weapons. Honestly, it feels like Cultists are too little too late after the Allies Matrix was released. Mech spam is possible, at a high cost. Yeah, you can technically throw down 6 Land Raiders. Good luck finding the points. That and tanks just don't last like they used to (other than Land Raiders).

So, in other words, because you don't think it can be done it can't. Your playstyle is the only one that matters or is successful. Gotcha.

damiengore
20-11-2012, 17:42
I have to agree that on the surface guard allies do seem like a better choice than cultists. You get a 5+ save, flexibility with blobbing, orders, commissars and special and heavy weapons.
There are a number if problems with that assessment:

1. I play guard as well and never put anything but Flamers in blobs as they need to move. Plasma and melta are a waste on BS3 and heavy weapons ill only put on squads detailed to support the blob and its arguable if 10 guard with an auto cannon are a solid investment.

2. Guard platoons and allies invariably end up costing more than the base cultists because of the need to include an HQ and a pltn HQ (for each sizeable blob). That's an 80 pt outlay before the blob before you go dropping in some plasma and a chim on the HQ. Yes the HQs can be useful but it just ties your hands to them.

3. Guard do not benefit fe CSM buffs provided by sorcerers or apostles. It may seem small but getting LD 10 blobs for no additional cost beyond your already required HQ is nothing to be sneezed at.

I have run it both ways and there are benefits and drawbacks to both, just depends on how many points you want to throw at things.

damiengore
20-11-2012, 17:54
I disagree that lords belong on bikes, if you like running headlong into the enemy firepower and counter charge that may be your preference.
Personally I like a cheap scary lord advancing with a solid block of super cheap power armour guys. I find they mitigate both of their weaknesses and turn them both into a big problem for your opponent.

Caitsidhe
20-11-2012, 18:13
1. I play guard as well and never put anything but Flamers in blobs as they need to move. Plasma and melta are a waste on BS3 and heavy weapons ill only put on squads detailed to support the blob and its arguable if 10 guard with an auto cannon are a solid investment.

I play CSM and have tested both Cultists and Guard as allies and like yourself I rarely upgrade anything about the Platoon or the Command Squad. That isn't the point. What is the point is that I have either a solid big blob scoring unit behind an Aegis with a Lord Kommisar shooting the Gun Emplacement, or I have the option of (2) scoring units at deployment if the scenario would give me a benefit for it.


2. Guard platoons and allies invariably end up costing more than the base cultists because of the need to include an HQ and a pltn HQ (for each sizeable blob). That's an 80 pt outlay before the blob before you go dropping in some plasma and a chim on the HQ. Yes the HQs can be useful but it just ties your hands to them.

They cost more but not a lot more and they more than get a return on it with the options. Key to my own builds is the ability to phase in Sabre Gun Platforms which give me reliable Lascannon shooting and solve my AA problem all at the same time.


3. Guard do not benefit fe CSM buffs provided by sorcerers or apostles. It may seem small but getting LD 10 blobs for no additional cost beyond your already required HQ is nothing to be sneezed at.

No but they hardly need it with a Lord Kommisar nearby now do they? :) The point of cheap units is to hold objectives and shoot (in my humble opinion) and the buffs provided by those other HQ do not really matter much to me.


I have run it both ways and there are benefits and drawbacks to both, just depends on how many points you want to throw at things.

This I agree with. There are some benefits to Cultists, but the point of taking Allies isn't just the price reduction; it is the ability to fill an important gap in your selection. CSM suffers (badly) from a lack of reliable AA and/or artillery. The IG provide that while also providing a scoring unit or units. The savings garnered but Cultists are so small in comparison to the gain that it isn't really a competition.

malisteen
20-11-2012, 18:17
running headlong into enemy firepower is the only thing melee infantry can do. Bikes have the speed needed to make best use of cover, avoiding enemy LoS until within charge range. It's because I don't like just walking down the barrel of the enemy guns that I prefer to put my lord on a bike. Or maybe deep strike them with some terminators.

It's not that I don't like midfield bolter bodies. I love midfield bolter bodies. But if I'm going to supplement them with a character, it won't be a lord who's of very little use outside of melee, or an Apostle who's basically a lord with less stats and fewer options for about the same points cost. 4/5 it's going to be a sorcerer, and the remaining time it's going to be a warpsmith. Neither grants fearless, but both actually like to function in that midfielder sort of position, maybe going into melee, or maybe just parking on a central objective and letting enemy melee units march down their gun barrels.

And because I prefer sorcerers in my midfield infantry, and think nurgle bikes are too expensive, and want the blinding axe if I'm taking a lord anyway, in my armies plague marines aren't troops, and as such aren't the best troops. They're certainly not the best elites, so I won't field them that way, either.

If I were running a nurgle theme list, I'd field typhus or a nurgle lord and be happy to do so, and plagues would be great troops. But in a general mixed alignment black legion list, plague marines aren't so much better than CSMs that I'm going to let them dictate my HQ choices in order to field them.

Sexiest_hero
20-11-2012, 19:21
I find that Plagues, while my favorite cult troop, are just too much for what they do outside of a tally list.A swarm of PA and Cultist work fine. I dislike IG allies, I'd rather take ork allies or necrons before them. If anything Daemons give the close combat bump you need.

Virulentus
20-11-2012, 19:22
I didn't see anyone address this, so I will..


You still have to get him to the optimal spot. He is a Sorcerer but when your DP is better at it there is redundancy.

I have to ask; how is a hideously expensive - leadership 9 character - a 'better' psyker?


If you are not using the DP (although for the love of Nurgle why wouldn't you use the Nurgle DP w/Black Mace and Disciplines), Typhus fits better because you have more points, the sorcerer aspect is helpful again, and so on. Obviously in high point games with multiple Force Org, Typhus is easily selected.

I'm assuming by disciplines, you mean mastery levels. Typhus isn't really taken because he's a psyker; if you want a psyker, you're much better off taking an unmarked, mastery level three sorcerer. I just cannot fathom why you would want to bloat the already overpriced prince even more so, by making him a psyker.


On topic, I absolutely find that my Plague Marines always do their job. They're a very resilient troop choice, and are well rounded enough to handle many threats.

thrawn
20-11-2012, 19:37
This depends entirely on the size of the game and whether or not you are also taking a Nurgle DP w/Black Mace and maximum Disciplines. Points get tight and Typhus isn't cheap. Most games in my area are 1850 (or less) these days and I'm hearing that is becoming pretty much standard. Fitting both Typhus and the DP in is extremely expensive. I don't use Cultists and turn them into Zombies (I prefer IG allies for cheap objective holders). I don't like that Typhus is slow in combat (durable as hell but slow). The Destroyer Hive is awesome but often tends to do far less than you expect. You still have to get him to the optimal spot. He is a Sorcerer but when your DP is better at it there is redundancy. My test games crammed Typhus and the DP in together and I found it was overkill. I swapped down to a VERY cheap Nurgle Lord to make my Plague Marines scoring. He is essentially as he comes w/Gift of Mutation and the super flame thrower. :)

If you are not using the DP (although for the love of Nurgle why wouldn't you use the Nurgle DP w/Black Mace and Disciplines), Typhus fits better because you have more points, the sorcerer aspect is helpful again, and so on. Obviously in high point games with multiple Force Org, Typhus is easily selected.



Zombies are a difficult subject for me. I don't like them. I think losing the shooting is a devastating price to pay. When it comes to Zombies, it is "in for a penny... in for a pound." You might as well go all in if you are going to put Zombies out and saturate the damn board with them. That is how you get a return. Crappy Cultists with FNP and Fearless are still crappy cultists. :) I'd rather have guys that can go to ground behind my Aegis while they camp that objective. Typhus is Fearless and thus will give it to the Cultists if you have him join their unit without turning them into Zombies. Don't get me wrong. I like Typhus, but I think you have to BUILD around Typhus to truly get the best return on him. I like to build all-comer lists and building that with Typhus as your anchor is a difficult proposition at lower points.

i see you gave a DP the Black Mace. Just b/c he's weilding the Black Mace it's still AP4 right? or else that would be an EPIC mean weapon.

Virulentus
20-11-2012, 19:45
i see you gave a DP the Black Mace. Just b/c he's weilding the Black Mace it's still AP4 right? or else that would be an EPIC mean weapon.

Nah, that's one of the few hidden treasures of our new codex; if the prince wields it, the mace counts as AP2.

malisteen
20-11-2012, 19:49
The 'smash' rule makes all of a monstrous creature's attacks AP2. This specifically overrides the AP of melee weapons wielded by the Monstrous Creature unless they're AP1. So yes, a daemon prince with the black made does indeed strike at AP2. Furthermore, they can opt to halve their attacks in order to double their strength up to 10, and this is done before counting charging attacks or rolling the extra d6 for the black mace. Normally you'd be wounding on 2's anyway, so it wouldn't matter, but if you're flipping a tank, smashing a walker, or just autokilling a T5 dude, the option's still there. And all of this at a ridiculous weapon skill and initiative, with additional wounds caused by the mace's curse effect at the end of the combat round, which lets you do a number on hordes even if you've been trapped in a challenge with a unit chump.

A daemon prince with a black mace has a positively hideous melee output, although it pays dearly for it with its sky high points cost and vulnerability to instant death (particularly via S10 shooting). There's not a lot of variety in princes (wings/mace/armor is all pretty obligatory, and after that your other choices don't matter too much), and their cost and vulnerability mean I doubt they're going to rock the tournament scene, but I have little reason to complain about their impact on the table, and would actually kind of like to try out a dual prince list, one rocking the black mace and one with the considerably less good, if still very good Axe of Blinding Fury. Maybe with a few heldrakes or plague flies, and a couple extra flying monsters allied in from the daemon book.


Note that while the mace very much is AP2 on the prince, there's some question regarding combat familiars. Since they're not 'weapons' I don't believe the smash rule overrides their inherent AP-, but they are still explicitly attacks made by the model, so there's some disagreement, at least until FAQ.

Ssilmath
20-11-2012, 19:55
I'm curious where the widespread vulnerability to ID is coming from. If I'm not mistaken, the only way to get Str 10 shots on the table comes from Railguns and Demolisher cannons. Perhaps Doomsday Arks? So, Broadsides, Railheads, Vindicators, Leman Russ Demolishers and...Anything else? And since blasts can't hit Swooping Princes, only Broadsides and Railheads. Is it common in your meta for people to ally in Tau for access to Broadsides? Granted, after landing Princes can be shot at by Demolisher Cannons, but there may be ways to mitigate that (Short range, staying in melee, LOS blocking).

malisteen
20-11-2012, 20:04
Remember that flying monsters can be knocked out of the air to be target by S10 cannons. I've seen tau allied for the railguns, and if I were spamming princes I know one or two more local players who might pick them up. It's less an every day occurance at the local store, and more something you could expect to run into once or twice at a tournament. Hence why I consider princes fantastic casual options, but I'm still not quite convinced of their tournament viability.

There are ways to try and get around S10 guns when you see them - perhaps hold the prince in reserve, and try to take down the offending guns with bikes, oblits, or the like before the prince arrives. In close combat, you have to deal with force weapons from grey knights and the occasional S10 hammer or the like. It doesn't ruin princes, but it is a worry, with their sky-high points cost. And then there's just streams of bolter fire - what with only T5 and a 3+ to protect you from light arms....

I'm not saying princes are bad, I think they're awesome. But they're very vulnerable for their sky high points cost, and so far that's kept people from spamming them, at least in my experience.

Kevlar
20-11-2012, 20:10
I'm curious where the widespread vulnerability to ID is coming from. If I'm not mistaken, the only way to get Str 10 shots on the table comes from Railguns and Demolisher cannons. Perhaps Doomsday Arks? So, Broadsides, Railheads, Vindicators, Leman Russ Demolishers and...Anything else? And since blasts can't hit Swooping Princes, only Broadsides and Railheads. Is it common in your meta for people to ally in Tau for access to Broadsides? Granted, after landing Princes can be shot at by Demolisher Cannons, but there may be ways to mitigate that (Short range, staying in melee, LOS blocking).

Any dread or monstrous creature in cover will ID him before he attacks. That limits his targets quite a bit.

Sexiest_hero
20-11-2012, 20:31
No they wont as he has assault and defensive grenades. Or is that just for Daemon of chaos DPs

Virulentus
20-11-2012, 20:39
No they wont as he has assault and defensive grenades. Or is that just for Daemon of chaos DPs

The prince lacks grenades. Much like warp-talons and mutilators..

Genestealer syndrome, they call it.

Freman Bloodglaive
20-11-2012, 20:41
No they wont as he has assault and defensive grenades. Or is that just for Daemon of chaos DPs

Daemon Princes have no grenades.

CrownAxe
20-11-2012, 20:57
No they wont as he has assault and defensive grenades. Or is that just for Daemon of chaos DPs
CSM's DP don't have grenades

in fact, Chaos Daemons DPs can buy grenades if they're slaanesh or nurgle

Sexiest_hero
20-11-2012, 21:29
You guys are right. Back on topic plague marines are goof for some metas. I find basic bolter marines a solid base.

agurus1
20-11-2012, 21:35
I'm a proponent of MoK CSM as a solid troop choice, especially if you are more prone to assaults :) Plagues are just too pricy for my taste, especially cause I like units of 10, and 10 Plague Marines are not cheap, even before upgrades/transport.

DuskRaider
20-11-2012, 21:38
So, in other words, because you don't think it can be done it can't. Your playstyle is the only one that matters or is successful. Gotcha.

Described your own thinking there too, pal. My personal preference is for smaller, more durable squads than blobs. IG loves blobs. Their templates do as well.

madival
20-11-2012, 21:44
The problem wwith plague marines is that weapons that really put the hurt on marines care little for t5. Plasma guns and such will hurt a lot. My doomsday cannon has paid for itself point wise from a single shot at exposed plague marines.

SimaoSegunda
20-11-2012, 21:49
I've had a great deal of success at lower points levels using a squad of PMs basic, with a Sorcerer, and using them as my objective-clearing assault force. Sometimes instead of the sorcerer, they have a termie lord with twin lightning claws. Either way, I've found them to be a killer combat unit. Wounding on fours, and usually with re-rolls, and coming with pistols along with the knives, they're tough to shift and plenty killy.

Cooper97
20-11-2012, 21:55
Ys and no. Plague marines are effective against sustain unit types but not so effective against others. I always have a unit of them in my army list so that they can launch attacks on stronger units. They are great against space marines and necrons. I think that if your unsure as to wether or not to have some in your force, try them out and see how you like them.

Ssilmath
20-11-2012, 22:08
Described your own thinking there too, pal. My personal preference is for smaller, more durable squads than blobs. IG loves blobs. Their templates do as well.

If you'll note, I acknowledged that your playstyle was a valid one as well. Not sure where you're getting that from. Perhaps I did not make myself clear in my post, as I do not advocate blob squads (Though my 15 man squad works reasonably well) nor Land Raider Spam, nor positioning your models in such as way that IG ordnance spam can wipe them out. I was simply pointing out that there are other valid styles beyond small, elite and durable units. Just because it does not work for you, or in your meta, does not mean that it is not a valid way to play the codex.

gwarsh41
20-11-2012, 22:09
Honestly though gwarsh, they seem like they'd be really solid. Base T6 is nothing to scoff at, especially on a bike. I've been tempted to make Purge Bikers or something just to test them out, but I feel uncomfortable making DG Bikes. That and I see no reason why Motorcycles would be in the 41st Millenium... maybe Jetbike counts-as or something. I don't know.

On a different forum there are some people talking about nurgle slug riders, or daemon riders of some sort. Heck, why not just have them be daemons of some sort? Daemons can fire magical abilities like normal weapons, so you just have to make sure you are measuring from the right spot on the bike.

158022

This guy will be my mark of nurgle biker lord. I wanted him to look good and nurgly to fit the part. All of my others are just going to have a bit of decay here and there.

Caitsidhe
20-11-2012, 23:27
I didn't see anyone address this, so I will.. I have to ask; how is a hideously expensive - leadership 9 character - a 'better' psyker?

Because you can get him to a Level-3 and thus get three different abilities, two of which can come from Biomancy. A Spell Familiar allows him a reroll so the difference of a point in Leadership is negligible.



I'm assuming by disciplines, you mean mastery levels. Typhus isn't really taken because he's a psyker; if you want a psyker, you're much better off taking an unmarked, mastery level three sorcerer. I just cannot fathom why you would want to bloat the already overpriced prince even more so, by making him a psyker.

Because I want my Prince to have either the Blessing which supercharge him further or the maledictions which weaken the target before I hit them with the Black Mace. The DP is likely to be in range and position to do these things. He is always up close and personal. Moreover, I only have two HQ slots. One is for the DP. The other is for turning either Noise Marines or Plague Marines into scoring units. That precludes a Sorcerer unless it is the DP and/or Typhus.

Caitsidhe
20-11-2012, 23:29
i see you gave a DP the Black Mace. Just b/c he's weilding the Black Mace it's still AP4 right? or else that would be an EPIC mean weapon.

No. It is AP-2 in the hands of Daemon Prince.

Virulentus
21-11-2012, 05:46
Because you can get him to a Level-3 and thus get three different abilities, two of which can come from Biomancy. A Spell Familiar allows him a reroll so the difference of a point in Leadership is negligible.

I don't like to knock how another guy hobbies, but you cannot possibly consider a 355 point - single model, at that - who isn't even immune to instant death, and lacks grenades, a 'good' choice. Unless you play massive games, or just 'for fun'. This just seems crazy to me. :confused:


Because I want my Prince to have either the Blessing which supercharge him further or the maledictions which weaken the target before I hit them with the Black Mace. The DP is likely to be in range and position to do these things. He is always up close and personal. Moreover, I only have two HQ slots. One is for the DP. The other is for turning either Noise Marines or Plague Marines into scoring units. That precludes a Sorcerer unless it is the DP and/or Typhus.

That is such a huge investment though, who could be lost to a lucky instant-death weapon - or snipe. I can't see the sense in it. But to each his own, I guess.

Caitsidhe
21-11-2012, 12:29
I don't like to knock how another guy hobbies, but you cannot possibly consider a 355 point - single model, at that - who isn't even immune to instant death, and lacks grenades, a 'good' choice. Unless you play massive games, or just 'for fun'. This just seems crazy to me. :confused:

All I can say to this is try him and see how he works for you. I don't think much of the other Daemon Princes, but with Nurgle and tactical jumping from ruin to ruin you can make sure he has a 2-3+ save against the odd STR-10 attack. Moreover, with the Biomancy you have a a shot at picking up the spell which grants bonus attributes and Eternal Warrior. I don't rely on gambles, but it has come up enough to know it is in the mix. The point of the Nurgle DP w/Black Mace is board control, i.e. the massive no-man's land he creates. Objective based games require the players to get to said objectives and they won't be able to be in cover the entire time. The winged DP can easily intercept them as they try. If you have built your backfield with enough long range, annoying firepower the opponent has to get to YOU to silence those guns. I use Guard allies whose entire point is to camp an objective and fire annoying long range fire which cannot be ignored. This create a situation wherein you put the foe between a rock and a hard place. Sit back and get hammered, move forward and try to get through the DP. I am an Longstreet style player. I want to force my opponent, herd him/her into making mistakes and that is only possible by having the right tools. The very expensive DP is such a tool.


That is such a huge investment though, who could be lost to a lucky instant-death weapon - or snipe. I can't see the sense in it. But to each his own, I guess.

I have yet to have my Nurgle DP killed by instant death. Let's address the obvious. It takes STR-10 to instantly kill him. This means "other" Monstrous Creatures with their ability to double STR are a considerable threat. Don't engage them with your Nurgle DP unless the odds are heavily in your favor of killing the opponent first. Having Biomancy gives you a shot at Warp Speed which helps tremendously in this aspect. I don't like using my DP against other Monstrous Creatures unless it is a sure thing. I commented on the fact that I'm not a gambler by nature. Like Rommel, I believe that tanks are for killing infantry. Artillery is for killing tanks. I use my Guard Allies (perhaps augmented by Oblits) to shoot down big monsters. Unless they are Mark of Nurgle Daemon Princes too (tactically using the available cover to gain broken cover saves), I am usually able to shoot them down effectively. Simple tactical tip, don't waste your Monstrous Creature on other Monstrous Creatures. Leave that to the matinee of Godzilla versus the Smog Monster.

Hammerheads are STR-10. Demolisher Cannons are STR-10. The big templates can't hit a DP in the air which gives you a good place to hang out while killing said machines with your long range firepower (or Obliterators). Hammerheads are a horse of a different color. I often reserve my Nurgle DP until I have killed the Hammerheads. Everything I have will be working on silencing the offending guns. It is really win/win since ideally you want to kill Hammerheads fast even if you don't have a DP to protect. Look, the instant death thing is a pain in the butt. It isn't, however, a massive change over last edition. I never sat around and let people shoot at me if they could shrugging it off to "I'm an Eternal Warrior... try to kill me." It was more a matter of "crap... every wound gets me closer to death." Dakka was (and remains) an issue for the DP. I'm far more afraid of VOLUME OF FIRE than I am of instant death. There is a lot more Dakka this edition than there is instant death.

Virulentus
21-11-2012, 19:49
All I can say to this is try him and see how he works for you.

I don't think that's tactically sound for me, personally. I'll explain why.


I don't think much of the other Daemon Princes, but with Nurgle and tactical jumping from ruin to ruin you can make sure he has a 2-3+ save against the odd STR-10 attack. Moreover, with the Biomancy you have a a shot at picking up the spell which grants bonus attributes and Eternal Warrior.

That's just the problem; you have a 'shot' at ensuring your massively expensive monstrous-creature isn't popped like a balloon. The Chaos codex already has too many, well, 'chaotic' elements to it, to really be what one would consider a genuinely tournament quality, competitive army. This is just another thing that you cannot rely on, when it comes to fielding your prince.

In a game where so much is already left to chance, via the dice, this just seems like a bad idea.


I don't rely on gambles

Well, no. That's actually exactly what you're doing. You're gambling that the enemy doesn't outclass your 'shooting harassment', or have its own monstrous creatures, capable of tearing yours in half. Then, by making him a psyker as well, you're then adding the chance of peril wounds, and hoping for a certain psychic ability. That's all very much so a gamble.


The point of the Nurgle DP w/Black Mace is board control, i.e. the massive no-man's land he creates.

So what does your prince do when you're against an army with a resilient monstrous creature - or several? He surely isn't going to be intimidating to a dreadknight, or keeper-of-secrets. I know you said you'll just 'shoot down' the enemies monstrous creatures, but what keeps them from doing the same to you? Especially when you have a single one, not immune to ID. You can only hide in cover so long without being a waste of points, and if the enemy has no intention of coming to you - see Guard, Tau, and Necrons - then what is your next move? Intimidate them afar? Cast ominous glances at them from the safety of your ruins, Angron style? :p


Objective based games require the players to get to said objectives and they won't be able to be in cover the entire time.

But this is your entire strategy, remember? Sit in cover, and wait for the enemy to advance.

What happens when they don't? Or it's a kill-point mission, and they just castle all game?


If you have built your backfield with enough long range, annoying firepower the opponent has to get to YOU to silence those guns. I use Guard allies whose entire point is to camp an objective and fire annoying long range fire which cannot be ignored. This create a situation wherein you put the foe between a rock and a hard place.

So now, you not only have a 355 point monster, but Guard allies to make him viable? This is becoming a worse idea by the moment.

What keeps an enemy with superior shooting from just silencing your guns, and then burning the prince down? You cannot take the fight to them if they're in cover. You're just a massive genestealer.


I want to force my opponent, herd him/her into making mistakes and that is only possible by having the right tools. The very expensive DP is such a tool.

No offense intended - I genuinely mean that - but as your opponent, I'd feel that you had already made a fatal mistake by fielding the prince in a competitive game.


I have yet to have my Nurgle DP killed by instant death.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't comfort me when such a huge point-sink is on the line.


Simple tactical tip, don't waste your Monstrous Creature on other Monstrous Creatures. Leave that to the matinee of Godzilla versus the Smog Monster.

And when your opponent doesn't allow you to? What do you do when a keeper-of-secrets drags your prince out of cover, and then proceeds to charge?

Caitsidhe
21-11-2012, 20:57
Hey man... if it isn't for you... it isn't for you. My comments are made based on battlefield tests. The expensive Nurgle DP w/Black Mace and tricked out with magic works for me. I have yet to have him popped via instant death. He has, in every game I have played him, earned double his points back. Let me stress that again; he has always earned (i.e. killed/destroyed) at least 800pts worth of my opponent's army, win, lose or draw. In the 1850pt games which are most common in my area, that means he has killed almost 50% of my opponent's army all by his lonesome. Those are staggering returns. There are always threats to any kind of model. We both clearly understand what threats apply here. Knowing them makes them rather simple to mitigate. Unlike other DP the Nurgle DP has a huge boost to its cover save which means by hopping from ruin (or simply standing behind an Aegis at the start) it is as safe as anything can be on the board. What's not to like about the best save you can get? Losing him to a single shot before you get to do something with him is literally (assuming you took the bare minimum precautions, like getting hit by lightning. Do you like the odds on lightning? :)

I think it is clear that you don't like the DP. You get down with your bad self. I will be happy to eat crow and say that I wasn't too impressed (on paper) with the changes to the DP either. All my initial builds included Lord/Sorcerer builds combined with one Special Character or another. Then I tried the DP. Then I tried him again. I found myself making him half of every list I played because I just couldn't find a downside. Given the effectiveness and cost, I figured "what the hell... in for a penny... in for a pound," and I tried him at maximum cost (which is higher than you are estimating by the way... just shy of 400pts). He got even deadlier. IT was clearly a case of money well spent. Let me stress again, the key difference between the Nurgle DP and all the others is the increase to cover. Combined with wings to move between available cover and the option to start with an Aegis on the board assuring you have it on the 1st turn if your opponent goes first, gives you peace of mind. I'm not sure how much peace of mind you want. There is always risk. The question or not is whether or not is is a reasonable risk. If you go back over the many posts I've made you will find that I don't like random. I seek to reduce it as much as possible, seeing that skill set as part of logistics. That is why I don't consider myself a gambler. We disagree that I am taking a huge risk on the DP and so far my games against competent opponents bear out.

Again I have to ask you exactly how much STR-10 are you running into on a regular basis? :)

Virulentus
21-11-2012, 22:00
Hey man... if it isn't for you... it isn't for you.

I don't think it is, no. It's just far too many points for a single model. When one prince is comparing - in price - to Abaddon and a squad of terminators, alarms go off in my head.


In the 1850pt games

I'd be interested to see your list. Since you're dropping 400 points on a prince, I'm curious what the rest of your list looks like.


I think it is clear that you don't like the DP.

I used to run a warp-time prince in all of my old Death Guard lists, under the previous codex. It's not that I don't like them; I don't like huge investments that can become a handicap with some poor rolling.


and I tried him at maximum cost (which is higher than you are estimating by the way... just shy of 400pts).

Great Grandfather Nurgle! What all are you equipping him with?


Combined with wings to move between available cover and the option to start with an Aegis on the board assuring you have it on the 1st turn if your opponent goes first, gives you peace of mind. I'm not sure how much peace of mind you want.

So we now have an aegis defense, as well as Guard allies? You're spending sooo many points to make him viable.


Again I have to ask you exactly how much STR-10 are you running into on a regular basis? :)

You're only seeing STR 10 shooting as a threat to your prince, which tells me you're not facing a very large pool of opponents- competent or not. You're suggesting this perfect situation, where the enemy has minimal shooting, advances everything into a blender, and lacks any significant melee threat to your prince. This just is not realistic, unless your meta is nothing but Orkz and Tyranid.

Chaos Daemons: They're monstrous creatures done right. A keeper-of-secrets will destroy your prince and goes first.
Necrons: MSS, on leadership 9? Have fun with that!
Grey Knights: Hahaha.. oooh dear. Nothing needs to be specifically noted here, and we both know that.

This isn't even focusing on STR 10 shooting, or force-weapons specifically. Which can be found across more than one army.

These are just three armies - that are all too abundant in my store - that have ways to completely trash your 400 point model, that are all found in the competitive scene; just three.

Like I said, more power to you. I just can't see the sense in it. It's much like mutilators and warp-talons to me. People seem to swear by them, but I see a points handicap; and if I wanted that, I'd make a Dark Angels tactical army.

Kevlar
21-11-2012, 22:10
You don't even need anything close to str 10. Anyone that sinks 350 points worth of shooting into him will put him down in one turn. He is only T5. Fire warriors wound him on a 4+. Plasma on a 2+ and take away his armor save. Nurgle being SnP means as soon as you assault one unit you are dead. Unless it was an 800 point unit (doubtful) I fail to see how your claim of wiping half an opponent's army can possibly be true. All you would ever get against me is one MSU, probably 100-150 points.

Freman Bloodglaive
21-11-2012, 22:48
The only way I can get a Daemon Prince of Nurgle to ~400 points is Daemon of Nurgle with armour, wings, three levels, spell familiar, black mace and Palanquin, the Palanquin is not an option for Princes, only for Lords and Sorcerers, so that can't be it. 355 is as expensive as I can make it.

Certainly a Daemon Prince is a nasty customer, but at his points cost he'd better be. Myself, I'd be happy with a Khorne Lord, MoK, AoBF, CF, bike, SoC for a mere 160, and then take a level 3 unmarked on bike for 130.

Virulentus
21-11-2012, 23:20
The only way I can get a Daemon Prince of Nurgle to ~400 points is Daemon of Nurgle with armour, wings, three levels, spell familiar, black mace and Palanquin, the Palanquin is not an option for Princes, only for Lords and Sorcerers, so that can't be it. 355 is as expensive as I can make it.

I'm assuming he's just bloating it to bloat it. So even the useless stuff like ichor blood, then combat/spell familiar, etc. The whole shabang.

Freman Bloodglaive
21-11-2012, 23:33
Okay, adding ichor blood, gift of mutation and combat familiar brings it up to 385.

Caitsidhe
22-11-2012, 04:10
The all-comers list I've been running most recently is:

Aegis Defense Line w/Icarus Lascannon 85pts

Lord Commissar w/Camo Cloak 80pts
Infantry Platton w/5 Sabre Gun Platforms all upgraded to Lascannons & Spotlights. Each placed as single unit. *No upgrades on basic Platoon Squads or Command Squad. 396pts.

Daemon Prince of Nurgle w/Black Mace, Power Armor, Wings, Level-3 Mastery (usually 1 Nurgle and 2 Biomancy), Combat Familiar, Spell Familiar, and Black Mace. 370pts.
Chaos Terminator Lord in Terminator Armor w/Mark of Nurgle, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Gift of Mutation, and Power Sword which is included in Terminator package. 160pts.
(8) Plague Marines including the Champion 2x Melta Guns and Veterans of the Long War (Champion with Combi-Melta, Powerfist, and Gift of Mutation) 265pts
(8) Plague Marines including Champion 2x Melta Guns and Veterans of the Long War (Champion with Combi-Melta, Powerfist, and Gift of Mutation) 265pts
Obliterator w/Mark of Nurgle 76pts
Obliterator w/Mark of Nurgle 76pts
Obliterator w/Mark of Nurgle 76pts.

The Aegis sets up to the center rear of my deployment, camping tactical objective(s) w/Lord Commissar as part of the unit and forward manning the Icarus. His BS-5 makes th efact it is not twin-linked irrelevant. Being closer he will get to soak up fire for the rest of the unit. His Camo Cloak gives him a 2+ save behind the Aegis even when not going to ground. The five individual Sabre Gun Platforms are setup in best positions available for fields of fire and cover. The Obliterators, depending on the force we face, may all be back near the Aegis or kept in reserves. The fact that each is its own unit goes a long way toward expanding options. They add to the long range firepower, act as a midfield deterrent of the odd Land Raider, and provide close up plasma fire and add combat heft should something actually reach my Guard. The Plague Marines are for moving forward in support of the Daemon Prince and/or siezing objectives. The Burning Brand is useful in this course as well as being a great help against horde-style armies. The fulcrum of the offensive power (and oddly enough the defense too) is the Daemon Prince. As you point out, most people spend a lot of time and effort trying to neutralize it. This tends to draw fire off the Plague Marines who are either camping midfield objectives or moving in concert with the DP.

The idea is the massive long range fire from the firebase creating a frying pan and fire situation. Five twin-linked Lascannon shots, an Icarus, and three Obliterators can't really be ignored. Volume of fire tends to be shorter range and thus to try and silence the guns with infantry masses requires movement forward which put them into the no-man's land wherein the Plague Marines and the Daemon Prince can maneuver very effectively. The volume of Lascannon shots also allow for the destruction of opposing Monstrous Creatures or vehicles with STR-10 weaponry which pose the primary threat to to the Daemon Prince. I use the Nurgle DP in much the same way I do the Queen on a Chess Board, i.e. I use the threat and importance of the piece to dictate the initiative of the battle. They have to move to counter it or get hit. Moving to counter it means taking the withering fire from the rest. I am not speaking theoretically here. It works on the table.

The downside of my rather lean list is a low number of scoring units, a vulnerability to hordes style lists like those Orcs and Tyranids can field. I can fight them but they are much more difficult for me to deal with. Likewise, I have to get a return on the Daemon Prince (and so far I have) because as in Chess, if the Queen is the backbone of your gambit, you cannot trade her cheap. A stroke of lightning which denies me my Daemon Prince before I have removed key opposing threats would leave me hobbled. For that reason, I place a lot of emphasis on target priority.

Caitsidhe
22-11-2012, 04:19
You don't even need anything close to str 10. Anyone that sinks 350 points worth of shooting into him will put him down in one turn. He is only T5. Fire warriors wound him on a 4+. Plasma on a 2+ and take away his armor save. Nurgle being SnP means as soon as you assault one unit you are dead. Unless it was an 800 point unit (doubtful) I fail to see how your claim of wiping half an opponent's army can possibly be true. All you would ever get against me is one MSU, probably 100-150 points.

I don't assault Fire Warriors with him, at least not until I have assaulted first with supporting Plague Marines. They can fire at the incoming Marines or they can save it for the Daemon Prince. Tau are tough. In general I'm engaging them in long range duels first trying to shut down the Hammerheads and other Railguns long before either side is thinking of moving forward. MSU situations are a mixed bag. You are correct in pointing out that I don't really want to hit them with the DP because the vaporize and leave me hanging in the breeze. The upside is that I can saturate heavy fire on the odd MSU and destroy them in detail. The Rhino rush not being what it once was makes this much more probable. MSU which sit way back end up in an artillery duel. MSU which surge forward can be taken apart piecemeal and engaged Longstreet style. I haven't seen a whole lot of the MSU-style armies of late because the volume of fire in 6th seems to be acting to attrition them off.

orkmiester
22-11-2012, 09:13
I haven't seen a whole lot of the MSU-style armies of late because the volume of fire in 6th seems to be acting to attrition them off.

that is true, however 2 or 3 MSU style units are sufficient to assist an army greatly, yet not be a total liability- but that depends upon what you are using. With Dark Eldar its rather handy (2/3 venomns in miy army have tippe dthe balance on many occasions..), but with marines it works if in a different way.

on the plague marine issue

simple- they are the best all rounders in the list, no problem with that...

where it is annoying is the fact that there seems to be a stigma if you don't use them...

just use what you like the look of, or what you find works well for you. Whatever that maybe- though i'll admit plague marines are fun when they refuse to die and you keep making 5+ fnp saves:shifty:

Caitsidhe
22-11-2012, 13:10
that is true, however 2 or 3 MSU style units are sufficient to assist an army greatly, yet not be a total liability- but that depends upon what you are using. With Dark Eldar its rather handy (2/3 venomns in miy army have tippe dthe balance on many occasions..), but with marines it works if in a different way.

Yeah. Venomspam was very much in my mind as I worked on various experimental "all comer" lists. Dark Eldar (like Tau) can put a tremendous amount of Dakka out. Combine that with their immunity to Night Fighting and the availability of Poison and I you have receipe of success. Against Dark Eldar my DP has often started in reserve. I want to be as far away from the Venoms as possible allowing me to blow them up with Lascannon and reduce them to crew on foot. I cannot (with any pure CSM build) match the volume of effective fire put out by Tau or Dark Eldar. The only real option I have is to try to spam the long range and attrition their key targets and force them more into a fight where I will have the advantage.


on the plague marine issue

simple- they are the best all rounders in the list, no problem with that...

I tend to agree. I think Noise Marines are a CLOSE second. In time more testing my change my mind and move the Noise equal or greater.


where it is annoying is the fact that there seems to be a stigma if you don't use them...

I never worry what anyone else thinks of my builds too much. If I did the horror at my using such an expensive DP would be too much. :) My lists are forged in theoryhammer, tested on the battlefield, and then tuned based on what I find there. More to the point they are designed to be all comers lists which can compete at current tournaments. That means I take into account what I am likely to run into logistically, i.e. what faction and builds are almost certainly going to make an appearance. Do I have "some" way of dealing with it. I'm a big fan of optionis, i.e. lists (not just units) which can fight several different types of battle in the gestalt.