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Lord Squidar
20-11-2012, 20:23
Hi Guys,

I've been scouring bolter and chainsword, lexicanum and warhammer wiki for this answer, but its infuriatingly vague.

The dark angels have a strange chapter organisation, this we know. There is the death wing, raven wing and inner circle which are deviations from the codex. We also have several units in game (such as veterans) which wear the iconic robes. From my searching, the above mentioned resources say the robes are a sign of membership into the inner circle and or death wing (its vague), to which there are several levels.

Now unless I am missing something, that means that at least every dark angel who is wearing robes is (active or not) a member of the death wing, and has terminator honours. This is acceptable but still a little odd that a tactical squad seargent might have served in the first company already. They also might be members of the inner circle (and also death wingers) but given the frequency we see the robes on models, this means that the inner circle is rather larger (around 100 perhaps) than is indicated otherwise in the background.

Its frustratingly vague and either GW has got it wrong and robed up to many dudes (which is cool for looks etc) or perhaps I am missing something, in my scouring the fact that the ravenwing are the most oblivious to all of this was shocking to say the least. Anyone who could shed some light on this will earn 1 awesome point (very rare and valuable:evilgrin:)

Lord Damocles
20-11-2012, 20:38
'Dark Angels sometimes wear long robes of bone white colour over their armour. These indicate the brother's rank, role or position within the convoluted structure of the Chapter, and therefore are most often seen on Company Veterans, Veteran Sergeants and higher ranking officers.'
Codex: Dark Angels (4th ed.), pg.59

intercepta
20-11-2012, 22:16
yeah so not necessarily part of the inner circle, just veterans, they can be veterans and not have terminator honours right?

Harwammer
20-11-2012, 22:52
Aren't company veterans those marines that would normally be first company (in any other chapter) but aren't fitting to join Deathwing? Like they'd go a bit loopy if they started learning the chapter secrets?

Scalebug
20-11-2012, 23:20
Aren't company veterans those marines that would normally be first company (in any other chapter) but aren't fitting to join Deathwing? Like they'd go a bit loopy if they started learning the chapter secrets?

That, or they just haven't yet done something exceptional enough yet to warrant their initiation into the Deathwing, they just have the years of service in as for now.

Lord Squidar
21-11-2012, 05:02
thanks for the answers, its still not 100% clear to me, but then again maybe the inner cirlce are doing their job right

Rogue Star
21-11-2012, 10:11
thanks for the answers, its still not 100% clear to me, but then again maybe the inner cirlce are doing their job right

If it helps, think of it like this; There might be several layers to the Inner Circle, like a Middle Circle and Outer Circle. A Dark Angels Sergeant of a Tactical Squad in the 3rd Company, wearing a robe, might not be fully aware of the Chapter's past as a Deathwing Veteran, or even what they deliberately hunt, like the Ravenwing, but he wears a robe because the Inner Circle has noted he is a loyal, dependable character who doesn't question orders, and so can be relied on hold the line while the others might rush and stumble into things the Chapter's lords would rather they not be... burdened with.

TheDoctor
21-11-2012, 10:24
Actually, I'm fairly certain that all the veteran sarges are/were members of the first company- it's a fairly common practice with other marine chapters, and I believe it is explicitly stated in the current codex that ALL Company Masters are/were members of the deathwing.

For practical fallen hunting reasons too, it would be useful for Captains to have his immediate subordinates at least be partially aware of the truth-Bob the sarge will miss something or shoot to kill, while bob the former deathwing sarge would want to capture/investigate.

intercepta
21-11-2012, 10:32
Are we not talking about Veterans/Sergeants rather then Company Masters and Captains?

They can be Sergeants without being 1st company veterans, look at the BA books and I believe the SW ones.

Polaria
22-11-2012, 06:42
In FFG Deathwatch the robes for Dark Angels are more related to brothers social rank and achievements within the Dark Angel chapter and society as a whole. Meaning they can very well have robes without being Ravenwing, Deathwing or without being in Inner Circle. Likewise, its possible, in theory, to be Ravenwing, Deathwing or Inner Circle and NOT have robes, but it would be much rarer than other way around.

Lord Squidar
22-11-2012, 07:17
Yeah seems to be the case. Warhammer wiki also suggests that the robes are there to hide the chapters shame literally. So the more you know about the shameful past (i.e. higher you clime in the ladder) the more you want to hide yourself.

Which adds the extra confusion of pre-heresy dark angels artwork (busy reading the book so will see if its there too) depicting marines in robes.

Scalebug
22-11-2012, 08:58
Yeah seems to be the case. Warhammer wiki also suggests that the robes are there to hide the chapters shame literally. So the more you know about the shameful past (i.e. higher you clime in the ladder) the more you want to hide yourself.

Which adds the extra confusion of pre-heresy dark angels artwork (busy reading the book so will see if its there too) depicting marines in robes.

The problem is that they don't make a note of where this is from... Contributors to that wiki have not understood how to use footnotes (or how to break up walls of texts so that they are easier on the eyes... :p), so we don't know if that part is canonical or speculation. They have a long list of sources, but that is pretty useless without footnoots specifying where you cot information from in these publications (compare with lexicanum which is much better at these things).

acopp07
22-11-2012, 15:57
Tabbards from the ancient knightly orders from Caliban ? A tradition held over from their founding ?????

yabbadabba
22-11-2012, 16:25
I think you are reading too much into it mate. Damocles has the answer
within the convoluted structure of the Chapter as in its a mess of social superstitions and custom which we are not supposed to know the detail of, but to use the vagueness of that detail to make our armies look individual and amazing.

Polaria
23-11-2012, 07:52
I'll give the exact quote from Deathwatch:

"Hooded robes are a common sight amongst Dark Angels. While they are most often worn by veterans and other high ranking warriors, Battle-Brothers of all ranks may be found wearing them. The exact reason and hidden meanings of wearing such a robe a difficult to discern even for members of the Chapter."

Then there are three listed examples of different robes and reasons for wearing them:

Scholar's Robe - For being especially well-versed in some scholarly field.
Robe of Secrets - For being teached forbbidden lore on some subject (xenos, daemons, warp, chapters secrets...)
Seeker's Robe - For exceptional perceptiveness.

loveless
29-11-2012, 21:53
Scholar's Robe - For being especially well-versed in some scholarly field.
Robe of Secrets - For being teached forbbidden lore on some subject (xenos, daemons, warp, chapters secrets...)
Seeker's Robe - For exceptional perceptiveness.

Bath Robe - For exceptional cleanliness.

TheDungen
30-11-2012, 00:33
that would be awesome =P

Polaria
30-11-2012, 07:07
Yeah seems to be the case. Warhammer wiki also suggests that the robes are there to hide the chapters shame literally. So the more you know about the shameful past (i.e. higher you clime in the ladder) the more you want to hide yourself.

Which adds the extra confusion of pre-heresy dark angels artwork (busy reading the book so will see if its there too) depicting marines in robes.

The robes in pre-heresy artwork are the tabards of the knightly orders of Caliban. And that was 10 000 years ago. Things change a lot in 10 000 years. An example in real life:

Necktie is worn today for civilians as a part of formal wear when originally they were worn exclusively by soldiers as a part of battle dress.