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View Full Version : Mutilators and the 'Chapterhouse Effect'



Shibboleth
21-11-2012, 06:40
The chaos space marine Mutilator models are obviously very hastily put together conversions of the existing Obliterator models made to fill a gap made by the new CSM Codex in GW's miniature range, and thus a good example of what people are calling the 'Chapterhouse Effect', ie. GW putting out models to cover every Codex option before another company starts making their own versions in order to cash in on customer demand.

This strategy never made sense to me though, because if GW makes a quick, crappy model surely the customer demand will still be there for something better?

The Mutilators are so obviously, and almost universally seen as, crap that most people won't buy them anyway - and so, yes, another company has stepped in, (http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/chaos-space-marine-mutilator-chaos.html) attempting to fill the gap better than GW did.

It seems GW's response to the Chapterhouse Effect needs to better managed, because it isn't solving anything, re. competition.
Even though, with the Mutilators' example, there's rumours of a future plastic kit that can make both Obliterators and Mutilators (and must surely also be an improvement on the style) that may be years away, and meanwhile there's still a window of opportunity open for GW's competitors, despite the crappy temporary fill in models...

Charax
21-11-2012, 07:10
It makes perfect sense. If you've been keeping up to date with the chapterhouse case a lot of it hinges on which models gw have available at the time a 3rd party releases their version. Legally, it doesn't matter if the sculpting's trash, just that GW can go "look, we have a heavily armoured model armed with various melee weapons that seem to be bursting from its flesh, so do they, we went to production first, therefore infringement.

It's a lot more about being the first to market than it is about being best.

Shibboleth
21-11-2012, 07:30
That does make more sense,
but doesn't seem to stop anybody.

Hendarion
21-11-2012, 07:38
And since people's tastes differ, it never will stop anybody from doing or buying alternatives.

Wishing
21-11-2012, 08:18
This strategy never made sense to me though, because if GW makes a quick, crappy model surely the customer demand will still be there for something better?

I would say that there are two different issues here. The first is "GW doesn't make a model for this", the other is "the model that GW makes is ugly". Even though they can lead to the same result, that customers shop elsewhere, they are quite different. The first choice is absolute, the second is based on personal taste. The first has legal ramifications, as others have pointed out. The second depends on the customer making a critical choice about aesthetics, and you can never really prevent people from shopping elsewhere for product if they are determined to do so, so there isn't really anything GW can do about that. They can stop releasing "ugly" models, but I'm sure nobody from GW has ever released a model that they knew in advance would sell badly because it looked bad - I imagine their models are meant to be sold, not sit and catch dust on the LGS shelf.

Horus Lupercal
21-11-2012, 08:45
I don't care what GW complains about.

With their rediculous over pricing (I haven't bought from GW in 2 years. It's eBay for me) and terrible models(Mutilators, scout marines heads to name just 2)

I am happy to go somewhere else for good alternates. And I'm having that Peturabo. Sorry, "Pro-turbo"

But don't get me wrong. Gw produces some awesome stuff. Just on occasion they fail big time.

Shibboleth
21-11-2012, 09:07
...They can stop releasing "ugly" models, but I'm sure nobody from GW has ever released a model that they knew in advance would sell badly because it looked bad - I imagine their models are meant to be sold, not sit and catch dust on the LGS shelf.
I don't know if that's true for the Mutilators, especially if that rumour of the plastic version is true.

lordbeefy
21-11-2012, 10:18
I kinda like the mutilators....cant see what the fuss is about.

If you dont like the GW models, there are alternatives....make your own conversions or buy models from other suppliers. If you buy them from other suppliers you wont be able to field them in GW stores or official events and you have to accept that.....simple really isnt it?


edit....and for the record I love the chapterhouse/alternative stuff and will happily buy a couple for my own collection...i just wont take them into my gw store and expect to use them....no problem.

Scammel
21-11-2012, 12:03
I'm not understanding this assumption that bad models (though for what it's worth, I don't actually mind the Mutilators) put out by GW are somehow linked to the CHS case or are inetended to 'get one in' before everyone else has a shot at piggy-backing GW's work. Perhaps they're just... bad models?

Cap'n Shings
21-11-2012, 12:16
I think they are just bad models. Really bad models. Not sure it has anything to do with this "Chapterhouse effect" though. If it is, poor showing GW.

Also, I have never bought from Chapterhouse but between me and my friends often use 3rd party companies. I think its good for the hobby, nothing wrong with a little variation.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
21-11-2012, 12:35
I think GW are entirely capable of putting out bad sculpts all by their lonesome. They've done so in the past and they will do so again. As with any model company.

Wishing
21-11-2012, 12:48
Agreed, and I haven't seen any smaller company making their own versions of something like the razorgor. Though I did see a very nice looking box of 3rd party daemonettes in the Diaz style a few days ago.

Lord Inquisitor
21-11-2012, 12:56
I'm not understanding this assumption that bad models (though for what it's worth, I don't actually mind the Mutilators) put out by GW are somehow linked to the CHS case or are inetended to 'get one in' before everyone else has a shot at piggy-backing GW's work. Perhaps they're just... bad models?

I think the logic is as follows:

GW plans to make plastic obliterators, but as a second wave and not in time for the codex release. Like most plastic kits, GW plans to make it a double kit with two units, in this case "shooty oblits" and "hitty oblits". GW doesn't want to put a unit in the book without a model being available on release - those days are over thanks to the CHS court case (this has been true of every book since Ogre Kingdoms).

GW seems to have three strategies to make sure the book doesn't have units without models. (1) Make an "early wave" with WD rules, like the Terrorgheist, Daemon Chariots, WoC cavalry units. (2) Release a finecast model with the book even though you plan to redo the models in plastic soon. (3) Add the units later in a WD or game supplement. So with the mutilators it seems to be solution (2), get the sculptors to knock together a couple of quick conversions of obliterators and put them into finecast. They're placeholders for a new plastic kit that prevent people putting together "mutilator conversion kits". If people actually buy them, then bonus.

Scammel
21-11-2012, 14:27
GW plans to make plastic obliterators

The whole premise would be a good deal more sound if we could reasonably sure of this at all. Even then the logic doesn't always follow, GW put out those hideous metal Possessed and then updated them a year down the line if memory serves, almost certainly because of how bad the metal efforts were. If plastic Muties do make a showing, who's to say that they were always intended to replace the FC ones and not put out retroactively?

Adra
21-11-2012, 14:37
Curious then why they didnt bring out some alternative arms for oblitorators and make it a duel kit. would have been cheaper/easier to produce and cover them until they make a plastic duel kit. im just saying...i think we are stuck with the mutilator we have...

Caitsidhe
21-11-2012, 15:26
I don't like the Mutilators stats, so I don't need the better looking model. :) I would, however, buy that Hightech version in a heartbeat if Mutilators were worth fielding.

Mauler
21-11-2012, 15:52
I can't say that there's anything appealing about those alternative 'Multilators', I'd rather stick with the proper GW items. I've not really seen anything that's impressed me over on the CH site, in fact I'm kind astounded that they've not been koshed sooner for blatantly slapping GW's labels on half of their stuff without permission, nevermind making actual models! :wtf:


When I saw someone selling items with my band's artwork and photographs plastered over them on eBay I was all over that shiznit, pronto!

Prisoner24601
21-11-2012, 16:41
I can't say that there's anything appealing about those alternative 'Multilators', I'd rather stick with the proper GW items. I've not really seen anything that's impressed me over on the CH site, in fact I'm kind astounded that they've not been koshed sooner for blatantly slapping GW's labels on half of their stuff without permission, nevermind making actual models! :wtf:


When I saw someone selling items with my band's artwork and photographs plastered over them on eBay I was all over that shiznit, pronto!

the alternate ones dont look constipated, and cant wipe anyway as they have trees growing out of their elbows..

Flame Boy
21-11-2012, 17:44
I don't mind the models for the Mutilators, with a few minor objections:
1. The heads just look smeared rather than "corrupted"
2. The spikes sticking out of the shoulders look "tacked on" because the warped flesh around the shoulder armour looks like it's stuck on top of the shoulder pad armour rather than sprouting out of it.

The claws may look a bit oversized, but I like the style of the blades overall.

Were I interested in buying the Mutilators, I might look to getting third-party bits or converting them slightly. They do seem a bit rushed compared to many GW options that provide alternate parts. If I understand correctly, the Mutilators have two different head sculpts for three models, which seems a bit poor.

Lord Inquisitor
21-11-2012, 18:06
The Mutilators are so obviously, and almost universally seen as, crap that most people won't buy them anyway - and so, yes, another company has stepped in, (http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/chaos-space-marine-mutilator-chaos.html) attempting to fill the gap better than GW did.
Pretty quick off the mark too.

The thing is, GW aren't going to be that bothered about an alternative model out there, even one that is better than their own. They have a reasonably captive audience for the most part. What they need to avoid is situations where vital units like Thunderwolf Cav or Hellpit Abominations have no model forcing GW players to look around for companies that fill the gap.

Consider the following two scenarios:

- GW does make Mutilators
Customer: Hey, I want to buy some Chaos Mutilators.
Indy Staff: Here you go.

- GW doesn't make Mutilators
Customer: Hey, I want to buy some Chaos Mutilators.
Indy Staff: GW don't make them but Hi-Tech make a model that's just perfect.
Customer: Cool, I'll get that.

For a vendor, he doesn't care overmuch whether the customer buys GW or competitors, he just wants the customer to walk away with models so it's good for GW to have the models available. Also bear in mind that in the UK the majority of game stores are GW stores and a big chunk of GW's playerbase buys their models from GW stores. Supply them with the models and people will buy them. Now ugly models aren't going to sell as well as nice models and the mutilators are ugly, but if people want the models for game purposes, they'll buy them. Many are completely unaware of competing miniature companies. But if they're forced to look elsewhere because they want a Tervigon or a Hellpit Abomination or a Mountain Chimera or whatever and GW don't make one, well, that's bad. Not just that they'll buy these models but if they go looking for conversion beamers then maybe they'll be tempted by other products on the competitor's website too! Plus when GW finally got around to making a Hellpit Abomination, most existing Skaven players already had one or two, either scratchbuilt or from a competitor.

Producing a shoddy stopgap model isn't going to stop 3rd parties making better versions and your average forum-dwelling gamer nerd might well know about them or buy them in preference, but these are not the primary target for GW. GW want to keep the comparatively naive shop-going gamers from looking around. Legally speaking it gives GW ammo in case they want to sue someone (I don't think this CHS court case thing has gone to plan from the beginning), but it also protects them - conceivably they could actually be sued by a 3rd party manufacturer if GW produce a miniature too similar to one of the 3rd party's models, even if the 3rd party design was based on GW art!

Chapters Unwritten
21-11-2012, 18:07
I think the logic is as follows:

GW plans to make plastic obliterators, but as a second wave and not in time for the codex release. Like most plastic kits, GW plans to make it a double kit with two units, in this case "shooty oblits" and "hitty oblits". GW doesn't want to put a unit in the book without a model being available on release - those days are over thanks to the CHS court case (this has been true of every book since Ogre Kingdoms).

GW seems to have three strategies to make sure the book doesn't have units without models. (1) Make an "early wave" with WD rules, like the Terrorgheist, Daemon Chariots, WoC cavalry units. (2) Release a finecast model with the book even though you plan to redo the models in plastic soon. (3) Add the units later in a WD or game supplement. So with the mutilators it seems to be solution (2), get the sculptors to knock together a couple of quick conversions of obliterators and put them into finecast. They're placeholders for a new plastic kit that prevent people putting together "mutilator conversion kits". If people actually buy them, then bonus.


This pretty much sums it all up. It's good news for us to some degree, at least; there will be models available for most units now, going forward. I imagine GW will quickly find that putting out ****** ones and losing production money is not a good model and they will probably endeavor to make future codices release with mostly "real" new models, at least previewed or available for limited order. It would explain some of the delays we've seen on done books, too.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-11-2012, 18:18
If plastic Muties do make a showing, who's to say that they were always intended to replace the FC ones and not put out retroactively?
The lead time on plastic means its not something you just do and then bring out next month. If you see plastic models anywhere near to the codex release they will have been planned for. If we don't see them for another 2-3 years then it might be a reaction to poor sales.

Tokamak
21-11-2012, 18:23
I'm usually not a fan of third party miniatures but holy crap those models are excellent.

de Selby
21-11-2012, 18:29
GW has also been releasing pre-codex waves of stuff to ensure a complete range on release. I suspect it is to do with Chapterhouse et al.

Honestly the situation with the Tervigon was just ludicrous. It's not like chapterhouse sneaked in under the wire. GW released a codex that made everyone's existing monstrous creature lists rubbish, and described a new monstrous creature that was effective but with no model*. Then they waited a couple of years to release a model for it; of course people were going to turn to third parties. Crazy way to do business, and I say this as a person who actually waited for the GW kit.


*they used the opportunity to release almost-identical, almost-as-expensive plastic raveners to replace the metal ones.

Prisoner24601
21-11-2012, 18:42
its a shame CHS hasnt made a model for it... or any of the other chaos stuff.. I'd love to see their take on warp talons.. current ones just look like they took possessed and stuck FW JP on them and weird wolverine bone claws jutting out..

Lord Inquisitor
21-11-2012, 18:59
Honestly the situation with the Tervigon was just ludicrous. It's not like chapterhouse sneaked in under the wire. GW released a codex that made everyone's existing monstrous creature lists rubbish, and described a new monstrous creature that was effective but with no model*. Then they waited a couple of years to release a model for it; of course people were going to turn to third parties. Crazy way to do business, and I say this as a person who actually waited for the GW kit.
It often seems to be a unit that gets thrown in at the last minute or just hasn't been that well thought out. Or possibly the lack of a model means it doesn't get playtested? Often you see a unit that is severely unbalanced - or the best in the book anyway - and it's the thing without a model. Thunderwolf cav, Tervigons, Hellpits, Vendettas (although FW did catch that one), K'Daii destroyers, mangler squigs, etc. Some of the most broken units in both game systems have been one of those units that didn't get a model for donkey's years. Perhaps its confirmation bias (no one cares about a unit without a model when it's rubbish in the game anyway), but it definitely feels like the designers have a bad habit of throwing in an untested idea with no model and it becoming the new cheese.

Menthak
21-11-2012, 21:11
My two cents is that if other companies didn't try to profit off of GW then GW wouldn't have to be so lazy with the way it does what it does.

I'd personally never use anything other than GW products in my armies.

Lord Inquisitor
21-11-2012, 21:50
Ultimately all GW has to do to keep the competitors down is offer a superior product. I don't think anyone is forcing GW to be "lazy". If anything, having competition is a good way to prevent GW from getting lazy.

Wishing
21-11-2012, 21:50
Pretty quick off the mark too.

The thing is, GW aren't going to be that bothered about an alternative model out there, even one that is better than their own. They have a reasonably captive audience for the most part. What they need to avoid is situations where vital units like Thunderwolf Cav or Hellpit Abominations have no model forcing GW players to look around for companies that fill the gap.

Consider the following two scenarios:

- GW does make Mutilators
Customer: Hey, I want to buy some Chaos Mutilators.
Indy Staff: Here you go.

- GW doesn't make Mutilators
Customer: Hey, I want to buy some Chaos Mutilators.
Indy Staff: GW don't make them but Hi-Tech make a model that's just perfect.
Customer: Cool, I'll get that.

This is my view too. It's ultimately quite weird that it has taken this long for GW to be forced to release models to go with the rules they produce.

jt.glass
21-11-2012, 22:12
It's a lot more about being the first to market than it is about being best.From a legal point of view, first-to-the-market only matters for Trademark, and that can easily be sorted with Intent to Trade registration, as I understand it.


My two cents is that if other companies didn't try to profit off of GW then GW wouldn't have to be so lazy with the way it does what it does.You really think less competition would make GW less lazy? :wtf:


Ultimately all GW has to do to keep the competitors down is offer a superior product.Indeed, not only is that all they have to do, it is all they are allowed to do. Anything else is illegal.

IANAL. TINLA.


glass.

Menthak
21-11-2012, 22:14
I've just re-read what I put and it made no sense, my apologies.

I meant that GW shouldn't have to compete with other companies for their own game systems. I dislike it when other companies make 40K products (or products that are obviously for use with 40k) Which is why I'd never use another game system. (in my earlier post, I was supposed to say that I find other companies lazy when they profit from GW being lazy) Sorry again.

Avian
21-11-2012, 22:22
Legally, it doesn't matter if the sculpting's trash, just that GW can go "look, we have a heavily armoured model armed with various melee weapons that seem to be bursting from its flesh, so do they, we went to production first, therefore infringement.
If there is anything I've learned from these legal discussions, it is that you can't copyright ideas. So legally it doesn't matter who put out heavily armoured models with semi-biological weapons first, unless they are essentially direct copies of each other.

Menthak
21-11-2012, 22:25
For me, I couldn't give a damn about copyrighting models, it's more about respect to another company.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
21-11-2012, 22:31
I meant that GW shouldn't have to compete with other companies for their own game systems.

If they supported their own game lines properly, This would not be a problem. So no sympathy from me to them here. They need to modernize their release system, or they will suffer for it. It is a simple choice.

Menthak
21-11-2012, 22:36
If they supported their own game lines properly, This would not be a problem. So no sympathy from me to them here. They need to modernize their release system, or they will suffer for it. It is a simple choice.

I get it, GW has a really poor way of doing things. But I still personally believe that fans should just convert their own minis if there isn't one for them.

Having said that, I know I'm wrong and GW should just make their own minis, I don't understand why they don't care about their own ranges anymore? do they struggle with money, or are they literally just lazy?

Chapters Unwritten
21-11-2012, 22:41
I've always had a pet theory that GW balanced the game at times by making the best units have no models, and but those days are done. There is money to be made on such models and their ability to produce them in a timely fashion is no longer as strained as it once was.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Lord Inquisitor
21-11-2012, 22:46
I've just re-read what I put and it made no sense, my apologies.

I meant that GW shouldn't have to compete with other companies for their own game systems. I dislike it when other companies make 40K products (or products that are obviously for use with 40k) Which is why I'd never use another game system. (in my earlier post, I was supposed to say that I find other companies lazy when they profit from GW being lazy) Sorry again.

To a degree I understand this (and CHS in particular have been quite arrogant about how they proceeded with things) but really, GW made this bed for themselves. How many years before GW made thunderwolf cav models (a single metal character aside). Ditto the Tervigon, HPA, GW makes rules for a given unit but no models. I don't see it as a great disrespect to GW if a company makes a product GW has decided not to, be it models, resin bases or whatever. Equally, other companies like Mantic make great models for their own game ... but they'd be foolish not to make them compatible with GW's products.

Although it isn't necessarily just about being "lazy". GW had a habit of making more unit entries than it could ever support at once on the basis that they'll get around to them (so wouldn't have to add new rules to the book when they did make a new model) or just because they had a cool idea and thought the gamers would like to be able to scratchbuild it.


I've always had a pet theory that GW balanced the game at times by making the best units have no models, and but those days are done.
How does that work? Why would that balance things? And why wouldn't GW want to make the best units be the ones with models?

Wishing
21-11-2012, 22:48
I get it, GW has a really poor way of doing things. But I still personally believe that fans should just convert their own minis if there isn't one for them.

Having said that, I know I'm wrong and GW should just make their own minis, I don't understand why they don't care about their own ranges anymore? do they struggle with money, or are they literally just lazy?

Why exactly GW, until very recently, kept putting rules for models that they didn't actually produce models for into their codexes is something that has always astounded me really. In the early days I guess they didn't really think about it too much, but the Tervigon? Why? GW are a miniature company and only make codexes so that people will buy more miniatures. So why make people want to buy miniatures and then not produce those miniatures? What do they possibly gain from that?

Kaptajn_Congoboy
21-11-2012, 22:50
It is not only their running of things. great deal of their IP is extremely derivative, which means they get litte legal protection for it in return for cultural recognition of their IP. The purest example is this is Battlefront: WW2 is just not protectable, but it has extremely strong cultural resonance. The second makes sure BF has lots of recognition, the first makes sure they get competition on models.

Avian
21-11-2012, 22:57
I think it goes back to the old, old days, when this sort of thing was common with game companies. Or heck, maybe they thought people would make them out of other kits.

Menthak
21-11-2012, 23:01
I think it goes back to the old, old days, when this sort of thing was common with game companies. Or heck, maybe they thought people would make them out of other kits.

Back when GW wasn't as 'puritan' to minis? when they suggested how to make your own stuff and such?

Kaptajn_Congoboy
21-11-2012, 23:15
Oh yes...I have a shampoo landspeeder myself I made in 1992 or thereabouts. Move with the times or lose your advantage.

Delicious Ron
22-11-2012, 02:56
I meant that GW shouldn't have to compete with other companies for their own game systems.

I disagree, The more miniatures out there for me, the better.

Wishing
22-11-2012, 08:00
I think it goes back to the old, old days, when this sort of thing was common with game companies. Or heck, maybe they thought people would make them out of other kits.

I do agree with that, and I can see how this attitude makes sense from a gamer point of view. The studio designers, as creative gamers themselves, like scratch-building stuff like hover-tanks out of shampoo, and therefore put stuff into codexes without worrying about whether there will be models made for them, because they know they can leave it up to people's own imagination. That part is fine. What I struggle with is that the people that write the codexes presumably aren't the same people that make the big financial decisions about what model kits to put into production. When the the studio designer went to their corporate boss, at some pre-pre-codex production stage and said "look, we made up this tervigon which is a really cool monster that everyone will want, and it's not going to have a model so people will make their own, soooo cool", then why did the corporate boss go "OK, so people will come into our stores and ask to buy a tervigon, and will get told that it doesn't exist and they have to make their own if they want one? that seems reasonable"? Why didn't he go "OK... either we put that into production ASAP, or we push it until the next codex when we'll have a model ready"? How does GW as a business benefit from the products that people want to buy from them not existing?

Caitsidhe
22-11-2012, 15:35
I've just re-read what I put and it made no sense, my apologies.

I meant that GW shouldn't have to compete with other companies for their own game systems. I dislike it when other companies make 40K products (or products that are obviously for use with 40k) Which is why I'd never use another game system. (in my earlier post, I was supposed to say that I find other companies lazy when they profit from GW being lazy) Sorry again.

Why not? They aren't competing with other companies for their own game system. Remember that GW claims their "game system" is just a throwaway addition so you have something to do with their art. :) To hear GW tell the story, the game system is an afterthought, and to date nobody is trying to sell aftermarket versions of their game system. Other companies aren't being lazy. They see a market and they go after it. That is the very nature of business. If Games Workshop simply used it brand name and market share to cut prices and go bulk sales with quality models, there isn't a single one of these little companies that could keep up. Games Workshop has an identity crisis. It still believes (or wants to believe) that it is the only real player in the industry. That simply isn't true. They have real competition now and rather than face it as a business does, they have tried to turn to the courts. It was foolish, wasteful (from an economic standpoint) approach. The market has changed and they will either change along with it or be diminished or ultimately destroyed. That is how things work.

Lord Inquisitor
22-11-2012, 15:44
How does GW as a business benefit from the products that people want to buy from them not existing?

Particularly when, ten seconds after opening the book, every half competent player says "wow, thunderwolves/hellpits/vendettas/tervigons/K'daai are amazing ... I want as many as the army list allows!" GW's apparent refusal to accept that people buy models for in-game advantages has always boggled my mind. If I were running things I'd have a cadre of top tournament players on hand and get them to break a book - not only will it allow you to see where the list needs tweaking but you'll quickly see which units will be popular among the competitive sorts.

I was beginning to think GW were trying to correct this and were making an effort for new models to not suck especially since many of the new units (e.g. mournfang, demigryphs, mortis engines, etc in WFB and nightscythes and Grey Knights generally) have been pretty much must-haves but once again GW managed to blow any such theory out of the water with the CSM release. Last release we had possessed and spawn. This release, we have the Fiends and Helbrutes (decidedly sub-par), the Raptors and Warp Talons (raptors are iffy and warp talons are decidedly meh), mutilators (very meh) and heldrake (quite good). The only model out of these new wave of miniatures that is finding a place in tournament armies is the Heldrake.


It still believes (or wants to believe) that it is the only real player in the industry. That simply isn't true. They have real competition now and rather than face it as a business does, they have tried to turn to the courts. It was foolish, wasteful (from an economic standpoint) approach. The market has changed and they will either change along with it or be diminished or ultimately destroyed. That is how things work.

I don't know, if CHS hadn't got pro bono representation, GW's tactic would have worked fine with very little cost to GW because CHS just couldn't even begin to fight. I'll bet they're regretting it now but at the time I'm sure it seemed reasonable. This seems to have been a wake-up call, they don't put model-less units in their books and from our perspective that's a bit of a shame. The Ogre book, for example, only had 4 special characters and no second wave because they were the first book started after the CHS case. They seem to have the situation better handled with the "pre-waves" that they're doing for Daemons and Warriors. This seems to be the first real sign that GW are responding to the competition and as we were saying earlier, these crappy mutilator sculpts may well be part of this response.

Scammel
22-11-2012, 16:14
This seems to have been a wake-up call, they don't put model-less units in their books and from our perspective that's a bit of a shame. The Ogre book, for example, only had 4 special characters and no second wave because they were the first book started after the CHS case.

My stance too, and not just as an Ogre player. I'd much rather GW felt comfortable to put all of their wacky ideas into their books than leave it trimmed down to what they can produce.

Caitsidhe
22-11-2012, 17:18
They need to take a card for Privateer Press and start individual releases, i.e. new models released with their own info in the packaging with the card or always with a White Dwarf release. The ensure a sale of two things and allows them to balance as they go.

ogretyrant
22-11-2012, 18:25
^ this right here!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Chapters Unwritten
22-11-2012, 21:08
The idea behind my previous remarks is that GW can ultimately create, unit that is quite good but by not producing a model the unit is not an auto include piece.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Avian
22-11-2012, 22:53
That doesn't sound like a very productive thing to do. If they actually were able to design to a desired power level and wanted to avoid auto-includes, why not aim at a more moderate power level?

Chapters Unwritten
22-11-2012, 23:22
That doesn't sound like a very productive thing to do. If they actually were able to design to a desired power level and wanted to avoid auto-includes, why not aim at a more moderate power level?

All I was getting at was that it would make sense with the units that always seem to be the ones waiting for models.

The chaos codex seems to have done away with this, but but it makes of of sense when you think about it. Imagine something as good as say the tervigon. If it had to be converted from scratch it'd be a lot less likely to see armies full of them.

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Lord Inquisitor
23-11-2012, 00:04
That still doesn't make sense. The models are designed long in advance. This would assume the units without models are deliberately overpowered or don't produce models for units with powerful rules. Why not simply make the unit not overpowered? Or cash in on overpowered units being popular by selling the models?

Moress
23-11-2012, 00:18
Somewhat off topic but those are nice models lol

Erronius
23-11-2012, 01:03
What I struggle with is that the people that write the codexes presumably aren't the same people that make the big financial decisions about what model kits to put into production. When the the studio designer went to their corporate boss, at some pre-pre-codex production stage and said "look, we made up this tervigon which is a really cool monster that everyone will want, and it's not going to have a model so people will make their own, soooo cool", then why did the corporate boss go "OK, so people will come into our stores and ask to buy a tervigon, and will get told that it doesn't exist and they have to make their own if they want one? that seems reasonable"? Why didn't he go "OK... either we put that into production ASAP, or we push it until the next codex when we'll have a model ready"? How does GW as a business benefit from the products that people want to buy from them not existing?

GW views their customers as a captive audience, in that they see themselves as the only "real" provider of a certain good. So if that is your mindset (and I think that it has been for a long time in regards to GW), the idea of releasing rules for something that they don't have a model for yet can be a good thing. People talk about it, a few will do conversions, then when they do release a model people trip over themselves trying to buy it. And, they won't stand to lose anything, at least inside of that very narrow view, because if they didn't have the model yet then they wouldn't have sold any regardless of whether the rules were made available or not. I think the view of their customers as a captive audience can explain a number of other things as well (having customers that refuse to consider alternative models doesn't help and feeds into that mindset), but I digress.

GW needs to get their act together IMHO, because they are going to have much more competition in the future, not less. Going after CH is not going to solve any of their problems long term - even best case scenario it's just going to stall the inevitable. Their products are already incredibly pricy, so we'll keep seeing people undercut them on price and in greater numbers (Greatcoat Troopers as one example). Then you'll have the others that will choose to match GW's price range, and compete with them in terms of quality. I've been seeing both but I can't imagine that it won't progressively get worse, especially with 3d modelling and printing getting progressively more affordable and available.

Blatant:

http://hitechminiatures.com/_shop/userFile/hitech/picture/big/Proturbo_final_gray_1a.jpg

Take Perturabo's name and change it to Proturbo, change Iron Warriors to Iron Giants, call him an ARCHfather instead of PrimARCH, hell they even gave their model a version of what could be Forgebreaker.
All I was getting at was that it would make sense with the units that always seem to be the ones waiting for models.

The chaos codex seems to have done away with this, but but it makes of of sense when you think about it. Imagine something as good as say the tervigon. If it had to be converted from scratch it'd be a lot less likely to see armies full of them.
Actually IIRC, this was true for some time prior to the model release and people did make customs. But think of what this did - awesome rules but no model, a few people create their own, and a lot of Tyranid players wanted them (and bought them when they did come out).
That still doesn't make sense. The models are designed long in advance.
I do not think that this is always true. There are a number of examples of them releasing rules w/o models, or even anything similar to said model that could easily be converted.

Chem-Dog
23-11-2012, 04:26
conceivably they could actually be sued by a 3rd party manufacturer if GW produce a miniature too similar to one of the 3rd party's models, even if the 3rd party design was based on GW art!


Ladies and gents, we have a winner. Stopgap models are there primarily to protect the Company from squatters.

Avian
23-11-2012, 06:01
With all the time and money that has been thrown into the GW vs CHS case, I think it's safe to say that the smaller third party companies won't be suing GW. You may get free representation from a legal firm for *defence*, but you're much less likely to get it to go after someone else (on really shaky terms)

Vampiric16
23-11-2012, 07:59
GW released a codex that made everyone's existing monstrous creature lists rubbish, and described a new monstrous creature that was effective but with no model*....
*they used the opportunity to release almost-identical, almost-as-expensive plastic raveners to replace the metal ones.\

What's even more ludicrous, is that they deemed demand for Pyrovores worthy of producing a model for it. They invested time and money into producing a model (admittedly a lovely one) for a model very few people would use, yet held off on the Tervigon (and by extension Tyrannofex).

Avian
23-11-2012, 08:35
Remember that rules are made to fit models, and not the other way around. So what probably happened is that they came up with the concept for another Somethingvore, to facilitate a dual plastic -vore kit somewhere down the line, and then made some rules for the model. That the rules make the Pyrovore model less desireable is probably an unlucky accident caused by GW's inability to properly balance rules.

Regarding units with powerful rules but no models, I don't think there is much of a trend there. If you look at everything that didn't get a model upon release of the codex / army book, I think you will find that there are both very powerful units and very weak ones. In the Warriors of Chaos army, for example, Forsaken lack models and have poop rules.

Wishing
23-11-2012, 10:18
GW views their customers as a captive audience, in that they see themselves as the only "real" provider of a certain good. So if that is your mindset (and I think that it has been for a long time in regards to GW), the idea of releasing rules for something that they don't have a model for yet can be a good thing. People talk about it, a few will do conversions, then when they do release a model people trip over themselves trying to buy it. And, they won't stand to lose anything, at least inside of that very narrow view, because if they didn't have the model yet then they wouldn't have sold any regardless of whether the rules were made available or not. I think the view of their customers as a captive audience can explain a number of other things as well (having customers that refuse to consider alternative models doesn't help and feeds into that mindset), but I digress.

I suppose that does make some amount of sense - that the "missing" models are seen as a kind of secret prize, something to keep the customers excited that there is more to come in the future, to keep them mentally coming back for more rather than just buying everything when the codex comes out and then thinking "now I'm done with that army". It creates expectation and hunger for something they can't have *yet*.

I definitely think the captive audience thing is true to a huge extent.