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Lord Squidar
24-11-2012, 23:42
No this is not the secret hidden cheat code to Star Craft, this is the musings of a pure xenos player who has recently gone over to the dark side, marines!

In my 15 years of warhammer, I have never owned a single marine model, until dark vengeance came out. I have been strictly xenos and IG only for many years, simply because I could not stand the Mary-sueism of marine background material. That was until I stopped "downloading" my opinion from internet forums and actually read some of the marine background for myself and found myself liking it :) Dark vengeance was just an easy excuse.

I'm two months into my marine crusade (experiment sounds too tau-ish) and I must say I am enjoying it. These guys are not eldar who roll over and die at the slightest sneeze in their general direction. They have some serious armour going for them. However I am still getting to grips with the whole shooting thing they do. Maybe I am not experienced enough, and knew this before I started collecting them, but marines have a seriously lack lustre shooting phase. Now they can bring the dakka no doubt but its generally when you start dipping into forge world stuff or longfang missile launcher squads. Your average joe bob marine squad is pretty... average! What boggles my mind is people going librarian poo over a venerable dreadnaught with an assault cannon and heavy flamer. Even guard command squads can bring heavy flamers, it just makes a dread seem so blah (on paper of course, today this very dread fried a tactical squad and captain!)

I think what I am suffering from is doingstuffinreverseorderitis. See I got warp spiders first and combined with dire avengers and farseers, these dudes just shoot out loads of crystal meth awesomeness all over the place. I automatically compare the humble predator with its twin linked autocannon (whoopee basil) to the mighty fireprism (which is not that mighty, but yeah). The farseer rightfully makes an epistolary look like a kid with a crayon next to van gogh and so on and so forth.... Which is dead right since most xenos races are designed with the glass hammer style versus the marines jack of all trades style.

Now please don't get me wrong, I am loving the marines and the more I play them and the more books I read, I think deep down I am a true marine fan at heart, and might even want to collect a second army of them soon, ye gads! But has anyone else experienced this kind of thing as a result of playing a xenos force first, and can they give any tips for overcoming the compare everything to your old army sydrome I am having right now?

Wolf Lord Balrog
25-11-2012, 00:02
Welcome to the Astartes. :)

Believe it or not, a lot Marine players fell in love with our armies on their own merits, as you have. I didn't even know what 40k was yet when I picked up my first box, the old metal Long Fangs, from a bargain bin at my old LGS almost 20 years ago. And they just got even cooler once I started reading up. I wouldn't trade my Space Wolves for anything, ever.

Doppleskanger
25-11-2012, 00:37
Know exactly where you're coming from. My first army was a RT Harlequin list, which eventually expanded into lots of Eldar. I skipped over 2nd ed but when I started again in 3rd I went for Tau, because I was a Xenos player right? Well i don't know what happened... one day I was in a GW to pick up some pathfinders... I'd just been promoted... I had some cash... I walked out with a complete army of the just re-released Black Templars and then it all just got out of hand. I have a tasty BT force, a medium sized home brew Ad Mech themed army and then the Dark Angels got re-released... I started with a pure RW force... then a few DW... then a whole DW... then an entire infantry battle company... sigh so much money...
And you're right, they are average in so many ways, I think it's why I love them. Sure BA and SW have some really viscous stuff, but the normal (for a genetic freak) SM is just not very good. for me I think it's the key to their charm, you have to look after them, you have to have squads supporting each other because they just don't get the job done by themselves, I love Dreads, I have loads of them, but they aren't very good for the price, too slow to get into combat and too few attacks when they get there... and the guns are... infantry weapons. The tanks are lack lustre too. But you're army is small and tough and full of heroes. That guy who passes 16 3plus saving throws for no logical reason, that scout who puts a wound on a demon prince before being eaten whole, that chaplain who goes ape and kills swathes before being dragged down...
Slippery path mate, slippery path...

Stonerhino
25-11-2012, 01:55
The power of Space Maines is not their ability to just do damage. Their power is the ability to take other's damage on the chin and keep coming. With enough firepower to lay those damage dealing armies low.

You do want to pay attention to that slippery slope though. You may end up like... Crazy:

Lord Squidar
25-11-2012, 06:38
Love the baby bib of russ. My kids are going to have power armour jumpers when they exist! Glad to see other people know what I am talking about and I am not mad.

UberlordGendo
25-11-2012, 07:29
Yeah, I'm Guard and Necrons and in the process of helping my younger brother experiment and set up a CC defense for my Guard, I have found myself with nearly enough Marines for a decent army. (With guard support, of course.). Thing is, I find the firepower of Space Marines, compared to the hordes of tanks and phalanxes of the undead robots, somewhat lacking. Which is why I'm thinking of focussing on stuff that the other guys don't get like Drop Pods and Terminators. That and Maulerfiends--CSM has its allure too.
In short, yeah. I find myself most drawn to the whole MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS DEEP STRIKES now that I have BATTUL BRUTHAS.

DaemonprincePaul
25-11-2012, 09:14
I play chaos marines and daemons. I did play loyalist marines but im converting them as part of a new tzeenchian warband which ironically is my loyalist home brew chapter who the master of sorcery decided he wanted as his new pet project :3. When i had my first game of 40k ever it was with Eldar I then however started chaos marines then went to loyalist marines then back to chaos space marines then back to loyalist marines then went back to chaos marines and a couple of months ago i started daemons. I find my marine army to be alot tougher than my daemon one however i find my pink horrors shooting to be better than marines yet i still take alot of shooting in my loyalist marines. (I have lots of 24" range shooting)

TrangleC
25-11-2012, 09:38
This will sound arrogant but I really don't get how somebody who played the game for 15 years could be astonished about this.
Even if you didn't play Marines yourself for most of that time, you must have played against them often enough to get to know them.

Yes, Marines aren't a alpha strike faction and not a glass hammer faction. They are designed to take a punch and rough up an opponent over the long run instead of maximizing damage output and paying for it with a decrease in sturdiness (which is what is usually called a glass hammer).
The fact that 40k is more about holding objective markers than about destroying your opponent's army, gives Marines an advantage.
Being an Eldar player and a former Dark Eldar and Tyranid player, I prefer playing stuff that can't do everything but does one thing better than the average Marine. Getting such specialists to where they need to be when they need to be is more challenging and more rewarding than those "Doesn't matter, they can deal with everything, so why use your brain?"-Marines.
I think you'll realize that once the novelty of playing Marines has worn off for you.
There is a reason why usually newbees start off with Marines and later move to more exotic factions after all.

Still Standing
25-11-2012, 11:11
There is a reason why usually newbees start off with Marines and later move to more exotic factions after all.

Well I have been a massive Guard / Sisters / Eldar / Tyranid for 15 years, and only just moving on to Marines recently. I know many kids too who start with Orks or Dark Eldar for example. I think we're moving slowly away from the concept of Marines as the go-to army for beginners.

Knifeparty
25-11-2012, 14:00
Sometimes the style of play from certain armies just doesn't compute with your brain. For example I've played Dark Elves successfully for 12 years in Fantasy, I tried to make a Bretonnian army a few years back and got my ass handed to me every game, maybe I was over thinking it.

Because marines are jacks of all trades you can afford to put them into questionable positions every once and a while and they'll stick it for a couple of rounds but they definitely aren't invincible. I really think people take power armour in the game very literally, as if a good round of shooting wouldn't bring down your average tactical squad. The great thing about Marines is you can put them into a situation against an opponent on your terms more so than say Eldar who need to fight on thier terms. If the opponent is tau, then you get into combat with them and stomp em, if your opponent is Orcs you dakka their face off.

Marines have all the tools required to be successful but because they are a jack of all trades you may need to work in tandem with 2 units in order to effectively destroy something. I think that may be the key here is that basic Marines for the most part aren't as efficient in specific roles as a dedicated unit would be, so to counter that you need to leave your options open a bit if a plan doesn't work to pull up the rear with another unit and adapt to the situation. I think adaptation is something Marines are super good at and comes naturally to their style of play.

Krasus
25-11-2012, 19:02
I kinda agree with your point of liking Xeno abilites over Marines. I started off W40k with marines, then moved to Eldar and DE. I have recently started Chaos Marines with the new book. I've never played chaos before but always wanted to. The first few games I played made me realise how much I relied on DE abilities. Now to put this into context my regular opponents are a guy who swaps armies every few months and a Guard player. So my armies performed consistently against one but DE keep getting smashed against Guard (hydras). SO I thought well maybe DE are a bad match up lets try chaos and the first thing I notice is all the things I CAN'T do! Don't get me wrong I love marines but you get used to assault open topped vehicles, poison weapons etc. I got smashed playing marine variants again. Now I feel Marines aren't a safety net, they start that way but after both players get better they lose unless your play style evolves.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
25-11-2012, 23:28
Maybe I am not experienced enough, and knew this before I started collecting them, but marines have a seriously lack lustre shooting phase. Now they can bring the dakka no doubt but its generally when you start dipping into forge world stuff or longfang missile launcher squads. Your average joe bob marine squad is pretty... average!
Oh yeah ? Good thing you didn't start a Sisters of Battle army then, imagine the same kind of shooting phase… with awful miserable incredibly bad close combat on top of it :P.

Still Standing
26-11-2012, 02:13
Sisters have a far worse shooting phase. We lack 90% of the long range support Marines have. We completely lack all close combat ability. To top it off we're about as resilient as Space Marine Scouts. :D

Watcher of Thorns
26-11-2012, 03:49
Sisters have a far worse shooting phase. We lack 90% of the long range support Marines have. We completely lack all close combat ability. To top it off we're about as resilient as Space Marine Scouts. :D

The problem with Sisters is that they're designed to be a short range shooting army - somewhat akin to Necrons - but have little in the way of melee capability. So when they get charged, which they will, they get turned into paste..

Still Standing
26-11-2012, 07:14
My Sisters very rarely get charged... It's all about positioning your Rhinos so only 1 squad can charge your units... Then utterly annihilating that squad.

Jind_Singh
26-11-2012, 07:18
I used to think the same too - the Marines find it hard to concentrate serious fire power compared to other armies.

But having played them for a bit I can say that's not really the case. YES we'll not have the range/strength of Tau shooting for e.g., or the annoying effects of a Cron's shooting phase - however Marine armies can, and do, something really well - we can concentrate firepower at a point and crush the enemy piece by piece!

Currently running foot sloggers at 1750pts with 20 Tacticals, 10 Devs, 10 storm bolter termies, 5 scouts, Chapter Master with 3 honor guard, a Storm Talon and Ageis line with Quad Cannon. Despite the lack of speed the Scouts deployment and Terminator deep strikes still allow me to add distraction units on the field when I need them the most, while the Storm Talon has excellent speed and firepower.

I will focus fire my units on the target until it's dead and then move on - target priority is HUGE when playing Marines. Packing heat is another! To this effect my 1750 list has:

6 Missile Launchers (2 on the Storm Talon)
Lascannon
2 Plasma Cannons
3 Assault cannons (One is TL on the Storm Talon)
Orbital Barrage (NEVER under estimate just how powerful this can be!)
Quad Cannon (heavy 4 TL auto-cannon)

Then there the storm bolters and bolters - while this isn't sounding like much it is when I'll throw say 40-70% of the said firepower to bring down 1-2 enemy units I've picked for destruction - overkill is the only way!

The Marines do well as they can soak up punishment AND retain combat effectiveness - even when causality ratios would have crippled other armies.

Bring the right tools in your army list and you'll do just fine. Learning how to deploy the Marines and figure out what to keep in reserve/deep strike is another - the biggest is knowing which of your OWN units you need to sacrifice in a given turn in order to give you the edge is the biggest.

Friday's game vs the Dark Eldar for e.g. saw me throw 5 Terminators away - easy pickings - but the price was significant - by taking the bait it bought me a full turn to focus fire on the right flank and take out some crucial targets - the terminators were going down fast, just the Sarge left alive in a challenge - but a succession of jammy rolls kept him alive - which spelled the doom of my opponent as 5 Tactical Marines and 3 Honor guard waded in to help out the sole Terminator Sarge.

An Agies Defense line also is a big help for the Marines as it'll keep your boys alive for longer to dish out the pain!

So to summarize..

1) Stock up on the right tools in your weapons arsenal
2) Focus fire on a target before moving on to another
3) Use speed and resilience of units to lock the opponent into taking on the wrong targets
4) Roll lots of 5's and 6's when it comes to wounding, shooting, and making your armor saves!
5) Laugh when an orbital barrage from the Chapter Master blows a Monolith to dust in the 1st turn, or takes out 7 Plague Marines and a Lord, or destroys a Fortified Bastion!

Sons of Lorgar
26-11-2012, 09:01
Next year by halloween, my house will be surrounded with pumpkins featuring icons of the four gods and leering daemon faces wreathed in flames!

Chapters Unwritten
26-11-2012, 16:02
Well I have been a massive Guard / Sisters / Eldar / Tyranid for 15 years, and only just moving on to Marines recently. I know many kids too who start with Orks or Dark Eldar for example. I think we're moving slowly away from the concept of Marines as the go-to army for beginners.In my group, many of us started at the same time, and we all each had our own reasons for being drawn to different armies. We intentionally decided to not have any two people with the same ones, and we found that we didn't even need to make that agreement as our different personalities drew us to different ones anyway.

gwarsh41
26-11-2012, 16:11
Just remember that as lackluster as your marines seem in this or that area, know that they make it up in every other area.

You compare a dreadnought to an IG squad, IG might be able to bring the same ranged weapons, but the dreadnought is pumping a few S10 attacks in an armored hull, plus many units cannot hurt dreadnoughts A12 prevents anything less than S6 from scratching it.

Oh, always remember, power armor.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
27-11-2012, 09:11
It's weird that this thread happened. I just found out that I'm starting Dark Angels, after receiving the Dark Angels contents of Dark Vengeance from a friend who owed me 8D. I played Steel Legion Imperial Guard in 3rd ed, and tried Orks in 5th (very briefly, I have 5000 points of Fantasy Orcs and Goblins and soon realized the madness of starting another greenskin army). I had never expected to ever collect a Marine army. It was just one of those things that I was pretty darn sure of. Guess I was wrong.

Watcher of Thorns
27-11-2012, 09:24
My Sisters very rarely get charged... It's all about positioning your Rhinos so only 1 squad can charge your units... Then utterly annihilating that squad.

In this edition, a rhino surviving that long is truly a miracle in itself; must be all that faith you have. ;)

Still Standing
27-11-2012, 13:27
No it's just the fact that I run 7 vehicles in a 1250 point army...

DEADMARSH
27-11-2012, 15:01
No this is not the secret hidden cheat code to Star Craft, this is the musings of a pure xenos player who has recently gone over to the dark side, marines!

In my 15 years of warhammer, I have never owned a single marine model, until dark vengeance came out. I have been strictly xenos and IG only for many years, simply because I could not stand the Mary-sueism of marine background material. That was until I stopped "downloading" my opinion from internet forums and actually read some of the marine background for myself and found myself liking it :) Dark vengeance was just an easy excuse.

I'm two months into my marine crusade (experiment sounds too tau-ish) and I must say I am enjoying it. These guys are not eldar who roll over and die at the slightest sneeze in their general direction. They have some serious armour going for them. However I am still getting to grips with the whole shooting thing they do. Maybe I am not experienced enough, and knew this before I started collecting them, but marines have a seriously lack lustre shooting phase. Now they can bring the dakka no doubt but its generally when you start dipping into forge world stuff or longfang missile launcher squads. Your average joe bob marine squad is pretty... average! What boggles my mind is people going librarian poo over a venerable dreadnaught with an assault cannon and heavy flamer. Even guard command squads can bring heavy flamers, it just makes a dread seem so blah (on paper of course, today this very dread fried a tactical squad and captain!)

I think what I am suffering from is doingstuffinreverseorderitis. See I got warp spiders first and combined with dire avengers and farseers, these dudes just shoot out loads of crystal meth awesomeness all over the place. I automatically compare the humble predator with its twin linked autocannon (whoopee basil) to the mighty fireprism (which is not that mighty, but yeah). The farseer rightfully makes an epistolary look like a kid with a crayon next to van gogh and so on and so forth.... Which is dead right since most xenos races are designed with the glass hammer style versus the marines jack of all trades style.

Now please don't get me wrong, I am loving the marines and the more I play them and the more books I read, I think deep down I am a true marine fan at heart, and might even want to collect a second army of them soon, ye gads! But has anyone else experienced this kind of thing as a result of playing a xenos force first, and can they give any tips for overcoming the compare everything to your old army sydrome I am having right now?

I think the crazy, over-the-top fluff has as much to do with Marines being somewhat underwhelming in the offensive output department as your experience with Xenos armies, but whatever. Tomato, to-mah-to.

The thing Marines do better than most any other army is stay alive for a relatively cheap cost. A Marine unit in cover, dinging away with some heavy weapon is tough to kill and puts out a reliable amount of damage. Does it have the wow factor of some of the flashier 40k units? No, but you can't undervalue it.

There are a lot of bad/ not optimized units in a Marine codex- you'll have that with an army that's been around forever and been super-popular throughout. GW has to make new Marine stuff so they can keep selling models to people. I experimented around with different Marine builds a ton in 4th, so take this for what it's worth, but the most successful lists I used were lists that went heavy on power armored troops, light on expensive, tooled-up stuff, and had some fast-response units like LSTs to keep my opponent honest. Again, I don't get to play much at all these days, and haven't played Marines at all in 6th, but I doubt things have changed radically from that standard. I used to throw 50-60 PA bodies out there in 1500-1850 matches and generally my opponent just flat out couldn't get them all off the board.

For me the key to winning with Marines was playing to not lose- play safe, stay in cover, resist the temptation to field what you think is some CC monster. Hang back, shoot, take objectives. If you're decent with prioritizing targets and focusing your fire, you'll do fine with Marines. They're not a push everything forward 6" until you run into the enemy kind of army.

Oh, and Dreadnoughts suck because everyone loves the model so much. I swear- they've been borderline useless for the points since at least 4th edition, but everyone wants to include one because the model is just so cool/ iconic/ whatever. If I was a cynic, I'd swear GW do stuff like that on purpose.

Jericho
27-11-2012, 15:17
It's not that Dreadnoughts suck so much as they get themselves into situations where they can't win. 2A and most opponents packing krak grenades means they really should consider just shooting... and they aren't the best gun platform out there.

AV13 Dread variants, however... suddenly you get some options for combat again. Drop Pods (especially the Lucius pattern) make them a pretty legitimate threat. They absolutely will wreck things on turn 1.

Anyway, it is a bit of a shame that Marines don't play like they fight in the books. Obviously they couldn't possibly design a game like that, but your basic Marines aren't "the hammer" or "the tip of the lance", as Marines often like to refer to themselves. My Raven Guard (Blood Angels codex) went 3W-0L-1D at the last tournament because I feigned aggression and then played cagey as hell, winning games on objectives and not sheer offense. The last game I think I could have tabled him (Deathwing/IG) if it went beyond 5 turns... but that's what my Libby's Prescience/Misfortune combo will do to a Deathwing army.

Veteran Sergeant
27-11-2012, 19:20
Sorry. Warseer decided to post this in the entirely wrong thread. lol.

Polaria
27-11-2012, 19:37
Now please don't get me wrong, I am loving the marines and the more I play them and the more books I read, I think deep down I am a true marine fan at heart, and might even want to collect a second army of them soon, ye gads! But has anyone else experienced this kind of thing as a result of playing a xenos force first, and can they give any tips for overcoming the compare everything to your old army sydrome I am having right now?

My first army was Necrons and I played them extensively untill Blood Angels came out and I found Mephiston demolishing a whole army of Necrons alone... While waiting for the GW to update my Necrons with a new Codex that would be better suited to fighting Mephiston (which they eventually did), I decided to start a Codex: Space Marine army. So I know EXACTLY how you feel. My best tip is that find the thing Marines excell at and play that to your full advantage. For example, I found that Marines weren't as tough as Necrons and died much more easily than them, but could hold their own in assaults much better. So while my Marine army was (and still is) very shooty I still charge in with the Tacticals time-to-time and never cease to wonder how well the ATSKNF and Combat Tactics hold against dedicated assault armies.

Since your previous army was Eldar I would say that you should learn to take advantage of the few things Marines do better than Eldar:
- With T4, 3+ and cheap-as-soap transport Marines live a LOT longer. Learn to use that to your advantage.
- With all-the-way solid statline even a shooty marine unit can assault and not get their asses handed over like Dire Avengers or Guardians would.
- Get some Terminators and learn to love the 2+ save. Seriously. In 6th edition its like Farseer court with Fortune but with T4, ATSKNF and not reliant on passing that psychic test on Fortune. Oh, and they got Power fists too.