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View Full Version : Would you recommend GW gaming to a friend? Why/Why not?



Herzlos
28-11-2012, 09:20
I've seen comments in threads that touch on this, but thought it might deserve it's own thread.

Say you had a friend expressing an interest in gaming, would you recommend a GW game or something else? Why?

I was thinking about it, and have to say that I probably wouldn't, and would try to steer them towards something in a smaller game size (Maulifax, EOTD, SOTR) or historics like Bolt Action. The reasoning for it would be purely down to price (the entry price for 40K is nuts, but you could could get up and running with Bolt Action for a lot less, the rule book alone is 1/3rd of the price) and the rules are just too complex (mostly due to the abundance of special rules) to pick up quickly.

I love 40K and the background, but I just don't think I could recommend it to anyone who isn't already heavily invested. If I had kids wanting to get into gaming I'd be pushing them towards something else too (still 28mm games but with less figures at better prices).

Promethius
28-11-2012, 09:24
I probably wouldn't. Personally I think that skirmish games are a better introduction to wargaming and unfortunately GW don't produce a necromunda/warhammer quest game anymore. The hobbit might change this though.

I think the main barriers are the price and the sheer number of models needed. When you get into a new game, you want it to be quick to set up and minimum work (imo). If you have less initially to worry about and a quick, simple to learn mechanic, you can get cracking with your family on xmas morning or whatever.

75hastings69
28-11-2012, 10:35
No. A hundred other mini companies make better quality, more imaginative and better value minis than GW. Anyone who wanted to start collecting minis/tabletop gaming I'd advise looking elsewhere.

Darnok
28-11-2012, 10:50
As with so many other things: it depends.

I'd talk with the friend in question, trying to find out what he/she is most interested in. That includes preferences on background, visual style of models and scenery, what importance the rules have and what should be achieved with them, scale of the system, and how regular gaming should happen. GW does suit some setups of these very well, but others not so much.

If price is an issue - which again depends on said friend - I'd advise to stay clear from GW. If not, I can see myself recommending them, if the discussion makes GW a good candidate.

williamsond
28-11-2012, 11:21
I would say yes, 40k is as good as any place to start and is still one of if not the most widley played games in the UK and to be honest its what i play so i could teach them how to as such. I would however make sure they knew what they were getting in to with regard to the cost and introduce them to the glory that is ebay rather than sending them to a GW with pants down and wallet open. GW games do have really good fluff and your buying into the security that where ever you go people will play the game which some better games just don't have. I do however accept the fact that there are much better and cheeper games about but unless you kow people who play them and theres a club or shop which supports them then your buggered. To surmise GW games are good just don't drink the GW coolade and make sure your buddy goes into it eyes open.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
28-11-2012, 11:28
I depends on what they want:

- If they want to play balanced miniature games designed for competitive play, I'd point them elsewhere.
- If they want to play miniatures games primarily to be able to paint models and play with them, I would also point them elsewhere, to less model-heavy systems, unless they really enjoy the GW aesthetic.
- If they are heavily into the background (s) from other places - RPGs, Dawn of War computer games, etc - they really have nowhere else to go. Of course, GW also has specialist games that might fit them well - if they want the huge battles 40k book fluff depicts, Epic is the best choice. DoW enthusiasts will find 40k to be close to their idea of the setting.

x-esiv-4c
28-11-2012, 11:29
No.
I'd introduce them to FoW.

Darnok
28-11-2012, 11:32
No.
I'd introduce them to FoW.

And what if your friend is in no way interested in historical games? What if he/she wants to play with bigger models than 15mm scale?

Don't get me wrong, I think FoW has a very good ruleset and a huge range of excellent models. But if you are not into historical gaming in general and specifically WW2, then it has nothing to offer to you.

Chaos and Evil
28-11-2012, 11:40
I would point them towards Troublemaker Games, 50 gets a full army and the rules are free...

What? :)

Lord Cedric
28-11-2012, 11:41
Yes. I work in a factory that employs over 500 people and is going to be hiring an additional 300-500 more by March. I am constantly meeting new aquaintences and a few of them play GW games already, though most have never heard of it. Once I get a conversation opened, a typical subject tends to go to hobbies so then I ask. I invite them over to my home or meet in a neutral setting for an intro game... or generally invite them to come and watch a game with a buddy.

My initial motive is to see if there is a possible interest in playing future games. If so, then I usually show them other armies and give a rundown on their style and overall gameplay, then let them choose which two they like most (two because I'll usually make a quick 500 point game using them both so he/she can see the models on the table.. and hope they don't pick Demons or Beastmen! lol). Anyone who wants to play I let them use my armies until they can build an army of their own. If we play a 1500 point game and they only have 500 points of models, then they can use mine to fill in the needed points.

I love playing Warhammer Fantasy. And saying that a hundred other mini companies make better quality miniatures is a matter of opinion and subjective to the individual... and that is fine. Personally, I like GW's miniature range overall. Sure there are sculpts of other manufacturers that I like.. heck I've been collecting them for D&D since the 80's. But GW has come a very long way and even to my long-time gaming buddies from the 80's like GW's sculpts along with Reaper, Dark Heaven, and Ral Partha. That being said, if I can get more people interested in playing Warhammer, then I would also be increasing my number of opponents as would they.

People seem to be very distracted by the prices. While I agree that it is somewhat costly, it is also an investment. Most people think of games as being a one-time purchase of a box set.. open, set up, play, and repeat. What many don't realize at first is that it's a hobby and as such, most hobbies that I know require spare time, room for collection/storage, and investment of money over time. This is either a big turn-off for those who like the board-style games and use to quick set up and play, or it can be an additional interest for wanting to play wargames and feel good about enjoying the journey of getting better. But no matter how one looks at it, it's designed as such. I am a medieval re-creationist and professional/competitive fighter that is also a hobby. There is no way I can start out with owning everything I'll ever need right away. I didn't start out in a fitted suit of armour trimmed in brass, I wore mismatched plastic and leather until I knew that I wanted to stay in the hobby and learned new skills to make my own, repair, and eventually save enough to purchase my dream suit which I did - all over a period of 10 years. If I had to own it all before I played.. I'd never get started. Don't like the prices? Then it's not a hobby for you at this time. It will only be a game to shelf with Monopoly and Yahtzee. Thing is.. you just don't know if a friend will like it until they give it a try and see what's its all about.

- Lord Cedric

Daniel36
28-11-2012, 11:47
If there was genuine interest in gaming in general, I would probably brush up on some ruleset like D&D (though I am working on my own rules, different story though) and play that with them, probably with a couple of miniatures of which some are from GW, but I wouldn't introduce them to GW games, no.

It's not even about entry price that much. I would encourage them to buy and paint miniatures. It's more a rules thing. Warhammer is overly complicated and while I feel the same on D&D, it's much easier to wing and suit to your style, and as such is far easier to jump into.

Herzlos
28-11-2012, 12:07
People seem to be very distracted by the prices. While I agree that it is somewhat costly, it is also an investment. Most people think of games as being a one-time purchase of a box set.. open, set up, play, and repeat. What many don't realize at first is that it's a hobby and as such, most hobbies that I know require spare time, room for collection/storage, and investment of money over time. This is either a big turn-off for those who like the board-style games and use to quick set up and play, or it can be an additional interest for wanting to play wargames and feel good about enjoying the journey of getting better. But no matter how one looks at it, it's designed as such. I am a medieval re-creationist and professional/competitive fighter that is also a hobby. There is no way I can start out with owning everything I'll ever need right away. I didn't start out in a fitted suit of armour trimmed in brass, I wore mismatched plastic and leather until I knew that I wanted to stay in the hobby and learned new skills to make my own, repair, and eventually save enough to purchase my dream suit which I did - all over a period of 10 years. If I had to own it all before I played.. I'd never get started. Don't like the prices? Then it's not a hobby for you at this time. It will only be a game to shelf with Monopoly and Yahtzee. Thing is.. you just don't know if a friend will like it until they give it a try and see what's its all about.

- Lord Cedric

Of course the price is important, and especially in terms of GW the intro price is huge (comparatively). Assuming the minimum entry to a game is the rules, army book (if required - Bolt Action contains all the core unit info and lists in the main rule book so you don't *need* a supplement), a unit, dice and glue, then you can get started in Bolt Action for 65GBP, but in 40K you'd run to either 85GBP if you want Dark Angels or Chaos, and nearer 100GBP if you want a different faction. You can get player starter sets for most games for less than that too.

Yes it's an investment, because you can re-use the figures (or sell them on later), but there's still a minimum amount required to get started with. You can add stuff as you go along, but you cannot play the game until you've got the core bits mentioned above. That's why the intro price is key.

Spectrar Ghost
28-11-2012, 12:18
Not one of the core games. There are better 28mm rulesets out there. I'd still recommend Warmaster or Epic, though.

m1acca1551
28-11-2012, 12:35
Yes i would... but i would let them first use my armies at 750-1000pts to get a taste of every phase of the game, i have done this in the past and even ended up sellinng my oop skaven to the guy for cheap, he got a 2500pt army for $300, he was stoked lol

I have a hard time introducing new people to warhammer, in my studio i have a glass cabinet featuring my VC and my FoW german panzer grenadiers... the FoW always draws attention as it is a known "subject", most people i have talked to about GW products see the price and run for the hills and unfortunatly see the entire table top gaming experience as expensive :( which makes my job harder :P

Whitwort Stormbringer
28-11-2012, 12:55
I'd introduce a friend to a GW game if they were more interested in those than in one of the non-GW games that I play, but I'd encourage them to scour eBay for cheaper minis, or discount online retailers failing that. I think I'd also recommend Lord of the Rings or Mordheim before recommending one of the bigger 2, partially because I think they're more fun, partially because there's a lower cost of entry and lower model count so it's easier to have a playable force table-ready, and partially because I still play older editions of the big two so they wouldn't really be able to play with anyone but my gaming group.

Personally, though, I'd rather get someone hooked on one of the non-GW skirmish games I play. Heck, I'd even start a new skirmish game to get a friend started if I knew they were also interested in it, since the investment is usually pretty reasonable.

Lord Cedric
28-11-2012, 12:58
Of course the price is important, and especially in terms of GW the intro price is huge (comparatively). Assuming the minimum entry to a game is the rules, army book (if required - Bolt Action contains all the core unit info and lists in the main rule book so you don't *need* a supplement), a unit, dice and glue, then you can get started in Bolt Action for 65GBP, but in 40K you'd run to either 85GBP if you want Dark Angels or Chaos, and nearer 100GBP if you want a different faction. You can get player starter sets for most games for less than that too.

Yes it's an investment, because you can re-use the figures (or sell them on later), but there's still a minimum amount required to get started with. You can add stuff as you go along, but you cannot play the game until you've got the core bits mentioned above. That's why the intro price is key.

If a person's interest is high enough, then the price is secondary. Yes, there will undoubtedly be a cap and it will fluctuate from person to person. My point is that if a person really wants to do something, then they will save for it. It makes that hobby that much more real and have a sense of accomplishment when a part of it is achieved. If you are comparing two different games/hobbies with a start up difference of 30GBP more or less and it's a *huge* difference then I don't think that either hobby would be for them at the current time if they are the type of person who wants to play immediately with their own. Why? Because all hobbies cost money with more to spend in the long run. And if money is that tight, then they should wait until they have the funds comfortably to begin investing money and will most likely end up getting discouraged because they cannot afford a certain model or grow their army after the initial purchase, unless they are the type that can wait as long as it takes to save the funds for it. If their interest is playing only and not the other aspects (or willing to wait to build up funds, but wants to learn the game).. then have them play an extra army/unit/or models or whatever game system. Not everyone who has an interest in medieval fighting can afford the armour at first. That is why there are loaner gear to get them started. I'm sure another player can lend a ruler, dice, and share a rule book when playing games - even paint as, to me anyways, it's more fun to paint with others.

The thing is, it's not up to me to decide if my friend can/should afford a hobby. It's just my responsibility to let him/her know the information so they can make their own choice. Most of my friends don't have the extra cash to get started in any hobby.. but they still play with my extra armies, or borrow an extra suit of armour. And everyday I see them they tell me they appreciated me introducing them to the game as it's a fun break from their weekly schedule and a chance to hang out. Most of them I don't expect to invest money... but they are more than happy to invest their time which is the most important factor with me.

- Lord Cedric

Skyth
28-11-2012, 13:00
No, I wouldn't. The community is too divisive with too many personal attacks for 'not playing right'. That combined with the investmentment required in both time and money make it not worthwhile any more.

m1acca1551
28-11-2012, 13:12
Having recently played mantic's KoW, i would advise a new player to start here not only for mini's (a starter army is sooooo cheap for soooo much, just checked there website :eek:) at the end of the day they can play KoW easily enough but also if they really like the fluff of GW's WFB it's an easy step to make with an army behind you already and with out facing the daunting prospect of $500 to get a small army not including what else you actually need.

RedMountainGod
28-11-2012, 13:20
I have tried to get friends into 40k for a while and have always come upon the same deterrents: Price, Time investment, Space investment, and Overall Chauvinist/ Male dominated game scene, fluff, and or armies.

keep trying though.

arthurfallz
28-11-2012, 13:29
I'm of two minds. As someone who is invested in GW games at the moment, another person becoming involved with it would be only great. More opponents to play is great, and I get just as excited to see an opposing army being built, painted and growing as I do my own.

But I also regret my GW purchases. They're very costly, and the "fun" involved does not match the investment. I see other companies with better games, stunning miniatures and much cheaper (sometimes in simple model-count), and I wish I had picked that game up instead.

I would pay a lot of attention to what they wanted out of wargaming, and emphasize that they should try out a few games before buying in. GW is not a cheap hobby, and it's a lot of time to invest as well. If the person was my friend, I would take care to not sell them something I'm unsure about.

If a stranger asked me in the store, I would tell them what I like about the game, be frank about the prices, and let them make up their own minds.

Liability
28-11-2012, 13:30
I love the game, but would feel embarrassed if I had to tell someone that starting the hobby would cost 200-300.

Herzlos
28-11-2012, 13:31
If a person's interest is high enough, then the price is secondary. Yes, there will undoubtedly be a cap and it will fluctuate from person to person. My point is that if a person really wants to do something, then they will save for it. It makes that hobby that much more real and have a sense of accomplishment when a part of it is achieved. If you are comparing two different games/hobbies with a start up difference of 30GBP more or less and it's a *huge* difference then I don't think that either hobby would be for them at the current time if they are the type of person who wants to play immediately with their own. Why? Because all hobbies cost money with more to spend in the long run. And if money is that tight, then they should wait until they have the funds comfortably to begin investing money and will most likely end up getting discouraged because they cannot afford a certain model or grow their army after the initial purchase, unless they are the type that can wait as long as it takes to save the funds for it. If their interest is playing only and not the other aspects (or willing to wait to build up funds, but wants to learn the game).. then have them play an extra army/unit/or models or whatever game system. Not everyone who has an interest in medieval fighting can afford the armour at first. That is why there are loaner gear to get them started. I'm sure another player can lend a ruler, dice, and share a rule book when playing games - even paint as, to me anyways, it's more fun to paint with others.

The thing is, it's not up to me to decide if my friend can/should afford a hobby. It's just my responsibility to let him/her know the information so they can make their own choice. Most of my friends don't have the extra cash to get started in any hobby.. but they still play with my extra armies, or borrow an extra suit of armour. And everyday I see them they tell me they appreciated me introducing them to the game as it's a fun break from their weekly schedule and a chance to hang out. Most of them I don't expect to invest money... but they are more than happy to invest their time which is the most important factor with me.

- Lord Cedric

It's a value for money proposition certainly, and I wouldn't advocate forcing a friend into a particular system, but I imagine GW becomes a bit of a hard sell when it costs 30%+ more than other gaming systems to get into.

If they like it enough then they'll save up for it, yes, but if you show them 2 similar options, one at 65GBP and one at 85GBP, the first thing they'll ask you is "why is the 2nd option 20GBP more for half as many little men?" and I think that'd be pretty hard to justify.

MalusCalibur
28-11-2012, 13:35
Absolutely not. There are far better designed games and more reasonably priced figures of equal if not superior quality everywhere. GW have nothing to offer any prospective wargamer, as far as I'm concerned.

Tarax
28-11-2012, 14:09
Since I'm veering away form GW, and into FoW, I'd be inclined to say: No.

But if I stumble upon someone who wanted to get into miniature wargaming, I'd first find out what he/she wants and steer him/her into the right direction with all the information I can give.

I'd tell them about the price, the rules, the community and about the good and bad things according to me. I'd also try to play an introductory game.

tiberius122
28-11-2012, 14:27
Yes, only getting second hand minis.

Void Reaper
28-11-2012, 14:35
No, if they were interested in the hobby I would direct them to historical gaming as it's much much cheaper to get into and the various available rules sets are better than 40k/Fantasy. (By historical gaming, I don't mean FoW, either, which has gotten about as expensive as 40k.) If sci-fi was their hankering, I might suggest Battlefleet Gothic, a game by GW that I do very much enjoy.

I think the main problem with 40k/Fantasy, aside from the price, is that it's a frankly terrible game to use to introduce people to gaming. The rules are unnecessarily complicated, small games don't reflect the system, and too much in the game can be affected by a single die roll or event.

Daniel36
28-11-2012, 14:37
I love the game, but would feel embarrassed if I had to tell someone that starting the hobby would cost 200-300.

Why? It's no more than getting into videogaming. A PS3 or X-Box or whatever costs about the same, and if you want to "expand", a videogame is pretty much the same price as a boxed set.

It really isn't that expensive if you compare it to the entry costs of other things.

Lord Cedric
28-11-2012, 14:41
It's a value for money proposition certainly, and I wouldn't advocate forcing a friend into a particular system, but I imagine GW becomes a bit of a hard sell when it costs 30%+ more than other gaming systems to get into.

If they like it enough then they'll save up for it, yes, but if you show them 2 similar options, one at 65GBP and one at 85GBP, the first thing they'll ask you is "why is the 2nd option 20GBP more for half as many little men?" and I think that'd be pretty hard to justify.

I understand where you are coming from and it comes down to personal taste, opinion, and time. For me, GW is nor more a hard sell than Avatars of War, Flames of War, or Mantic. They both sell miniatures, have a game system and books, painting and other hobby investiture to do, and have updates that would require future investment to stay current. It's a hobby and as such, it's money difference amount means little at this level of genre compared to the amount of time, involvement, and overall liking of it. If the miniatures don't appeal, then the money & time investment will look to be too much. If the rules or overall system don't appeal, then the money & time investment will look too much. Basically, if I don't like something then it's a waste of money & time and my investment will be better off on something else.. no matter if it's GW, Mantic, Warmahordes etc. I have shown different gaming systems to my group of gaming friends and showed them both the time committment, price, and value. They didn't care if one system was $20 more or even $100 more than the other. The fact that it had miniatures, needed assembly and paint, and room for storage was the main reasons for being not interested. They understood that it was a hobby so the price tag didn't matter because they wasn't interested in miniatures. The ones that liked the miniatures didn't care for the game systems or length of time playing a game. The last thing mentioned (and most times it wasn't even mentioned) was price.

If a person will have just as much fun playing Risk or Axis and Allies as they would Warhammer and the like, then why invest in the more expensive and get into any of these hobbies because then they are looking for just a game, not a hobby. If a person is trying to justify spending X amount of money of a hobby compared to another like-hobby, then they probably shouldn't be looking into getting into that type of hobby at all because the price will always be the turn-off of the fun factor. I dont' get into hobbies because it's cheaper than the other.. I get into them because whatever I invest I get back with enjoyment - whether it's from a good painting job, hard earned game victory, or spending time with another friend. If I had to worry about how much money I had to spend on this or that hobby item... it no longer becomes fun and it's time to move on or set it aside. As years go on, so do prices of all things. If money it tight, then make a budget. If a hobby isn't within your budget to the point of not having fun and getting enjoyment from it... then why stress over it in the first place and try to "find" a way to get into it? Find a different type of hobby, or find someone willing to share theirs with you until you can get started comfortably. I don't like starting something thinking that I will always be worried about price increases because that means that I am too close to maxing my budget and it will be harder for me to enjoy.

- Lord Cedric

sigur
28-11-2012, 14:46
... But if you are not into historical gaming in general and specifically WW2, then it has nothing to offer to you.

Some people I talked to would say the same about FoW even if the person is into historical wargaming and specifically ww2. :shifty:


It depends really. If someone like Space Marines and GW designs in general there's nothing wrong with 40k/WHFB. People are aware of the prices anyway. It's very pretty models, very cool backgrounds and fairly solid games.

If someone's just generally interested in wargaming there are tons of other things I would suggest though. If a friend said "I want to play that thing with the toy soldiers I've seen in those computer games" I would never say "No, don't do that, it's the worst.".

Scaryscarymushroom
28-11-2012, 14:58
I would not recommend GW games.

Here are the reasons why:

Other games are more fun
Other models are more fun to build and paint
GW pricing is difficult to justify

I would recommend Warmachine instead because:

It allows for small armies as well as large ones (just as large as 2d edition 40k anyway-- 30-40 models in a 50 point list seems fairly common and that seems big to me, but you can play a good game with just 4 models per side).
And, more importantly, It has a strong player base in my area. So, if they decide to game with people other than me, they can.

If not for the player base issue, I would recommend Malifaux, Anima Tactics, or something from Spartan Games in that order. If they really wanted large fantasy/sci-fi armies, I'd ask them if they were interested in either orcs or elves. If the answer were no, I'd point them to mantic and see if they're interested. Mantic has some butt-ugly stuff, but some really good stuff too. And it's cheap.

If they further insisted on GW stuff, I'd tell them to buy a codex and the pocket rules. Then, if they wanted to play either Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks, Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos, Dwarves, or Empire, I would suggest they bulk out their core regiments with models from another company; and get only the really special stuff (centerpiece models) from GW.

ColShaw
28-11-2012, 15:07
I've played WFB and 40K for 15 years now. I would not recommend them to a friend, not anymore. They're far too expensive, and I feel the quality of their rules is going down in both current editions. They're terrible value for money these days.

nosebiter
28-11-2012, 21:54
No.

I have begun to suggest, and have recruited friends to, Privateer Press instead.

Get 2 mates, have them share the 2 player starter box. Spend an afternoon and evening cleaning and assembling the models while you talk about the world and backstory, and teach them the game the following weekend. Bishbashbosh 2 new inmates in the asylum.

stroller
28-11-2012, 23:11
Yes I would recommend 40K. I like the background. I've spent a shedload on figures over mumble mumble years and I've had a lot of fun. My other hobbies cost money too. I dont LIKE Warmachine. Nor do I like Mantic. Tried historical: didn't like it either. I bought new when 3rd edition came out. I'm still using those figures, so I reckon I'm getitng value for money. I've trundled round the country for years on sales jobs, rolled up in nowhereville, gone to the GW store and got a game. Wouldn't know where to start looking for other systems to do that. It aint perfect - nothing is - but - it's still enjoyable - and thats the point.

6mmhero
28-11-2012, 23:16
Yes and I have done many a time. But then I gauge what their interests are while talking to them.

If they like the look of the models and think the game looks fun then I tell them to give it a go and run them through a game. A lot of people I have introduced to GW like the look of the models and the gaming group that we have is very open and friendly.

If Historical gaming is something they are interested in then I work out what periods catch their interest and also what level of period flavour they are after. For instance I have a friend who wanted to play some WW2 games and knowing that he is well read on infantry tactics from ww2 through to present day I know not to recommend some rules sets that can be quite abstract (such as Blitzkrieg Commander, a great rule set but aimed at larger actions). I also knew that he wanted to keep to roughly platoon or company level actions and didn't like certain elements being represented etc so that ruled out FOW. What we settled on was Kampfgruppe Normandy and we have played quit a few games of that and it provides every thing he wants from a game.

For dark ages look no further than SAGA as it is a brilliant set of rules that is easy to pick up and quick to play (the four player scenario is great for introducing board gaming stalwarts to table top games).

At the end of the day what I am trying to say is that I will recommend things with some advice based on experience and let people make up their own minds, if they like something and want to spend their money and time on a game system then who am I to stop them or tell them it is rubbish.

Caiphas Cain
29-11-2012, 00:55
Probably not. I get them to play infinity, BGK, etc, but not 40k/fantasy.

lbecks
29-11-2012, 01:08
For gaming? No.

shelfunit.
29-11-2012, 01:31
No and yes. Yes for the smaller unsupported games - epic, mordheim and necromunda, although that's primarily for the rules. For the main games not in a million years in their current forms. Too expensive and poorly balanced with an increasing number or poorly designed models and the worst production material currently in existence (FC). There are vastly more higher value for money games around.

Dr Zoidberg
29-11-2012, 06:30
I would.

I'd simply stress that it is expensive, and while there are cheaper alternatives out there, none of them have ever grabbed me the way 40K has in terms of minis, background, gaming etc. Because of the cost, I just don't buy as much as often as I would like.

At the end of the day, the cost of it isn't my fault, and if puts them off, that's a totally fair decision to come to.

Schmapdi
29-11-2012, 06:53
I would say no. The cost and the large amounts of painting required are too daunting. Plus the rules are a bloated, intimidating mess imo.

Depending on what they like I'd steer them elsewhere unless they were deadset on 40k/fantasy for some reason.

For people enterting the hobby alltogether I'd probably start with something small and self-contained like SDE. It's cheap, has everything needed in one box, doesn't really need to be painted, and has like 15 pages or rules to learn.

Dyrnwyn
29-11-2012, 07:23
For Specialist Games? Sure. Mordheim remains fun and relatively cheap for someone new to games and I plan on running a campaign for my FLGS next year. For any of their main lines? Absolutely not. Startup costs are horrendous and build & paint times before getting to play can be extensive. I generally recommend small systems that can be tried for $50 or so. Malifaux, Warmahordes, Infinity. Free or cheap rulebooks, small model count, starter boxes available for multiple factions. If they turn out not to like them, then they're only out $50. It also is much more successful. I tried to talk a friend into playing Grey Knights before the 5e codex - he realized he was looking at around $200 worth of purchases to play the game, and quietly declined. That selfsame friend was persuaded to try Warmahordes because he could buy a battlebox for a faction he was interested in for $50 and play a game pretty much right away. GW's lack of a similar cheap 'beginner box' for every faction keeps me from recommending them at all.

armydave
29-11-2012, 10:01
Yes I probably would. The question isn't asking about just warhammer/40k, but GW gaming. The different options that GW have for games (Epic/Warmaster, BFG/Man O War & Dreadleet, Necromunda/Mordheim, BLOODBOWL!!!!!!!!!! ) in addition to the big three keep interest for casual players, while the size and availability of the 'GW community' gives you a very good chance of finding games and making friends.

jack da greenskin
29-11-2012, 10:02
Aside from price, and the fact I think there are some much better games (Malifaux, KoW and others) out there, one other reason would completely stop me recommending GW to a friend:

The fluff, artwork, and feel of the game has become completely juvenile. I'd feel like a mug if I was talking to my mate about how great the latest (Quote) "Red fist of death" to "Smash your enemies into submission". I love the grimdark fluff, but the current codex that makes space marines amazing and abundant really rubs me up the wrong way. Lets not get started on the necron/blood angel alliance thingy.

paddyalexander
29-11-2012, 10:09
I would recommend tabletop war gaming as a hobby to anybody who shows interest but I cannot recommend the gwPLC hobby TM to anyone who doesn't have a huge amount of cash to burn and have no interest in playing well written balanced rule sets.

Durloth
29-11-2012, 10:18
I would and I have. As adults with enough disposable income to spend a little on a hobby, the price for starting Warhammer (or 40K i guess) isn't too harsh. The main draw though (asides from WFB being my main system) is how well supported you'll be playing one of GWs main games. There are endless resources online, they have their own dedicated stores, lots of independent tournaments and with all the clubs, they are definitively the systems that you'll be most likely to find other players of in most areas. FoW being a better game with cooler miniatures (I can see how some would think so at least) doesn't help if it's almost impossible to get a game in.

HereticHammer01
29-11-2012, 11:08
The fluff, artwork, and feel of the game has become completely juvenile. I'd feel like a mug if I was talking to my mate about how great the latest (Quote) "Red fist of death" to "Smash your enemies into submission". I love the grimdark fluff, but the current codex that makes space marines amazing and abundant really rubs me up the wrong way. Lets not get started on the necron/blood angel alliance thingy.
lol, I definitely agree to an extent. Its a good job Black Library is putting out some great stuff nowadays.

Personally I would recommend GW as it has a great advantage other games don't: at this point in time, its probably the easiest to find a game with a stranger with as GW stores are everywhere (at least in England). I'd introduce someone with a game of LOTR SBG as its simple and less daunting than many other games. I'd definitely make my friend aware of the time, money and effort investments necessary in such a hobby. I feel GW puts out a great product so would recommend it for these reasons.

prowla
29-11-2012, 11:52
I'd talk with the friend in question, trying to find out what he/she is most interested in. That includes preferences on background, visual style of models and scenery, what importance the rules have and what should be achieved with them, scale of the system, and how regular gaming should happen. GW does suit some setups of these very well, but others not so much.

If price is an issue - which again depends on said friend - I'd advise to stay clear from GW. If not, I can see myself recommending them, if the discussion makes GW a good candidate.

Pretty well put, Darnok! I'd be happy to discuss GW stuff with friend, but the price is a bit offsetting and pops up every time I discuss GW hobby with someone.

If a friend would show interest in other games than GW, I'd probably be happy to do research about what's available and maybe even take a leap into starting other system with him.

Whitwort Stormbringer
29-11-2012, 11:54
I feel like the initial question implies that the friend is new to wargaming altogether (if they weren't, GW probably wouldn't need any introduction and they'd have had plenty of opportunity to get involved if they had wanted to). In light of that - said new friend being a non-wargamer - the size of a given game's player base is a pretty low-priority concern for me, as it's likely that the friend will start out only playing with me and/or my existing gaming group, and may well never develop any interest in wargaming beyond that. If that's the case, and we're just playing at each other's homes or a local store, then it hardly matters how well supported the game is. Whether we're playing Warhammer, which has a following practically everywhere, or home-brewed sci-fi skirmish rules that no one has ever played, is irrelevant if you already have all the opponents you want.

Every person that I've introduced to wargaming has had this approach, and only ever played within our gaming group. Indeed, the only time I started seeking out new opponents was when I moved to a new city and started playing a new game.



That said, if they did want to play one of the big 2 Warhammer games, I'd have to introduce them to older editions and let them know that if they wanted to go in to a store or to a tournament to play, then they'd have to brush up on new edition rules. I might also recommend Mordheim as a gateway to WFB, and Kill Teams or In the Emperor's Name (I think that's what it's called, never played it myself) as a gateway to 40K. That way they could start out small and see how they like the modeling aspect of the hobby before diving into full army building.

Karak Norn Clansman
29-11-2012, 12:22
I both would and have recommended wargaming to friends. The social interaction and creative craftsmanship involved is most rewarding and may endure for a lifetime, with the natural pauses. The links to history in fantasy wargames doesn't make it worse, either. I once explained the nature of wargaming in a store for an old couple whose young grandson looked at GW products. I put forth the positives, and also stated that it is expensive as hell. They were grateful for "the lesson", as they called the small conversation.

That's for strangers, but for a friend, with more time at my hand, I would not only explain how it all works and show him different GW armies and games, but I would also stress the cost of the hobby and show him alternatives - if he or she is interested. Colours and glue can be bought cheaper from other sources, and I'd certainly show a friend Mantic, the Perry Twins' and Victrix' historical plastics to show different and cheaper routes to go. With some bases of the right kind thrown in alongside an army book and the odd GW character, one can go a long way with the cheaper options. Since GW organize virtually no tournament here in Sweden it's an open field

If someone is careful or taken aback by the prospect of painting about a hundred miniatues, I'd point at Blood Bowl, Dreadfleet, Mordheim, Kill Team and Necromunda, and remind him that for most games the warbands can be converted quite cheaply from WHFB or 40k plastics.

I would also recommend historical wargaming once I enter that in the future.

Wil Grand
29-11-2012, 12:40
And what if your friend is in no way interested in historical games? What if he/she wants to play with bigger models than 15mm scale?

Don't get me wrong, I think FoW has a very good ruleset and a huge range of excellent models. But if you are not into historical gaming in general and specifically WW2, then it has nothing to offer to you.

You can't use logic to sway a FoW player.

I'd find out what kind of game they wanted to play or would interest them. Are they likely to be interested in a rank and file block unit game or a skirmish game. In terms of video games is that Total War or Company of Heroes. I'd then work out what would match. For the snobs that go down the "there more to the hobby than GW", yes, you're right but there's also a hell of a lot more than Warmachine, Malifaux and FoW.

I wouldn't recommend FoW at all for anything, really.

Flogger
29-11-2012, 13:32
Yes. 40k is for everyone and regardless of what people say, It's not that expensive.

Dr Zoidberg
29-11-2012, 19:39
Yes. 40k is for everyone and regardless of what people say, It's not that expensive.

I was with you right up until the last 4 words.....

Wil Grand
29-11-2012, 20:25
I was with you right up until the last 4 words.....


Hey, the rules and starter are cheaper than the hobbit.


(Here comes a 15pt warning for mentioning pricing outside some buried thread)

Most GW games have been out long enough that you can throw something together easily on ebay or wherever fairly cheaply. For me pricing isn't an issue, it's whether the game is the right one for a person - and bugger "teH Awsomist roolz", if the models available aren't that nice or fun to paint or if you just don't like the aesthetic of the game then you don't want to play it. Folk are missing the key point, recommending is about showing someone something you think they'd like, not what some fanboy element of you thinks is the best.

The games I'm telling people about lately are Hail Caesar, Relics and Bolt Action. Not everyone gets those recommendations, some might get two or just the one, no point turning someone oneto something they don't like because they'll then think they "don't like wargaming".

Killgore
29-11-2012, 21:12
I would recommend 40k to any of my mates and have introduced 2 good mates and got them hooked in the last year.


Firstly I showed them the various army books and relevant sections in the main rulebook to gain their interest in an army, and reinforced this with examples of models from my collection. I would then explain the costs associated with collecting an army, recomending building the army a box at a time and lending out the army rulebook to get them started. This removes part of the whole starter price argument, as face it, you don't need a 2k army from the off.

40k and fantasy is also more recognisable then other games due to the license appearing in video games, Dawn of war was very popular! Black library produce some great series which can grab the imagination of new gamers.

So yes, let people see what the hobby can offer them in terms of enjoyment, background and cost and let them make up their own mind.

Well if GW wasn't such an appealing hobby sites like warseer wouldn't be around!

Karak Norn Clansman
29-11-2012, 21:57
Folk are missing the key point, recommending is about showing someone something you think they'd like, not what some fanboy element of you thinks is the best.

The games I'm telling people about lately are Hail Caesar, Relics and Bolt Action. Not everyone gets those recommendations, some might get two or just the one, no point turning someone oneto something they don't like because they'll then think they "don't like wargaming".

Remember that many other tabletop gamers have little to no experience with non GW-games, and even little to no experience with the Specialist games. As such there is a limited scope of games available to recommend if a friend seem to be interested.

Wil Grand
29-11-2012, 22:21
Remember that many other tabletop gamers have little to no experience with non GW-games, and even little to no experience with the Specialist games. As such there is a limited scope of games available to recommend if a friend seem to be interested.

Not really, there's hundreds of played games available.
I'm taking the point of the thread "Would you recommend GW gaming to a friend." There's leagues more to wargaming than GW and if you're in a position to have someone that needs "GW Gaming" recommended to them then they're a blank canvas in terms of modelling, painting and wargaming so unless a game and range by GW was suitable then no I wouldn't recommend GW games if there was something else that fitted their bill better. If any GW gamere were suitable then I would but I'd also make them aware of any other suitable games and ranges.

Just because someone is new to Wargames they shouldn't have to play GW games as default, not when there's many other brilliant alternatives - often better suited alternatives for that person.

Havock
30-11-2012, 00:04
And what if your friend is in no way interested in historical games? What if he/she wants to play with bigger models than 15mm scale?

Don't get me wrong, I think FoW has a very good ruleset and a huge range of excellent models. But if you are not into historical gaming in general and specifically WW2, then it has nothing to offer to you.

Introduce them to Warmachine/Hordes and/or Infinity.

Wil Grand
30-11-2012, 06:11
Introduce them to Warmachine/Hordes and/or Infinity.

Or Relics. ;)

Karak Norn Clansman
30-11-2012, 08:25
Not really, there's hundreds of played games available.
I'm taking the point of the thread "Would you recommend GW gaming to a friend." There's leagues more to wargaming than GW and if you're in a position to have someone that needs "GW Gaming" recommended to them then they're a blank canvas in terms of modelling, painting and wargaming so unless a game and range by GW was suitable then no I wouldn't recommend GW games if there was something else that fitted their bill better. If any GW gamere were suitable then I would but I'd also make them aware of any other suitable games and ranges.

Just because someone is new to Wargames they shouldn't have to play GW games as default, not when there's many other brilliant alternatives - often better suited alternatives for that person.

My point is that for a hobbyist that this far has not played non-GW games, it is hard to show would-be interested people the plethora of historical and fantasy/sci-fi games. Oh, one could point them to models from different manufacturers and also give them vague and general descriptions about some wargames which one has read about, but when one's own experience (this far) is limited to GW gaming, it is difficult to recommend something else which seem to suit the person, because one is not familiar with other systems, and one might not even know if there is a large enough community to have players of the game available around most locations.

As such I would probably show an interested person historical wargames and especially miniatures, but without knowledge of popularity and community in Sweden I would remind them that as far as my knowledge is concerned, it is limited to GW wargames, and I also know there is a large enough community at least for regular tournament wargaming. My little hobby group are also solely GW-players, and that makes a GW recommendation natural in nine cases of ten. Now, I'm more of a hobby craftsman and background-reader than a wargamer, so it's fully possible most other people are more avid players and also more likely to test different rule sets and wargames.

Wil Grand
30-11-2012, 09:27
My point is that for a hobbyist that this far has not played non-GW games, it is hard to show would-be interested people the plethora of historical and fantasy/sci-fi games. Oh, one could point them to models from different manufacturers and also give them vague and general descriptions about some wargames which one has read about, but when one's own experience (this far) is limited to GW gaming, it is difficult to recommend something else which seem to suit the person, because one is not familiar with other systems, and one might not even know if there is a large enough community to have players of the game available around most locations.

As such I would probably show an interested person historical wargames and especially miniatures, but without knowledge of popularity and community in Sweden I would remind them that as far as my knowledge is concerned, it is limited to GW wargames, and I also know there is a large enough community at least for regular tournament wargaming. My little hobby group are also solely GW-players, and that makes a GW recommendation natural in nine cases of ten. Now, I'm more of a hobby craftsman and background-reader than a wargamer, so it's fully possible most other people are more avid players and also more likely to test different rule sets and wargames.

But then if a person has only played GW then why would you recommend GW games to them? The point of the thread is would you recommend GW games to non-gaming friends(?) not about what other GW games would you recommend them since if they play one then they're at least aware of the others and their mechanics.

As you say, your knowledge of wargaming is limited to only GW and even with that basis I don't have enough information about you to recommend a non-GW game to you. I don't know what you're in to.

Whitwort Stormbringer
30-11-2012, 13:00
As I understand it, Karak Norn Clansman is saying that in many cases the hypothetical recommender, i.e. "you" in the OP's question, and not the recommendee, may not have much or any experience with non-GW games. Therefore he would recommend GW games by that virtue alone, or would have difficulty recommending non-GW games since he doesn't know much about them.

Karak Norn Clansman
30-11-2012, 14:42
But then if a person has only played GW then why would you recommend GW games to them? The point of the thread is would you recommend GW games to non-gaming friends(?) not about what other GW games would you recommend them since if they play one then they're at least aware of the others and their mechanics.

As you say, your knowledge of wargaming is limited to only GW and even with that basis I don't have enough information about you to recommend a non-GW game to you. I don't know what you're in to.

I meant that I, as a hobbyist, would barely be able to recommend anything but GW to non-hobbyists because of my limited experience with other wargames. I would mention historical games and ranges, but I would also make it clear that I do know that GW games at least have a community to run with.

Yes, Whitworth Stormbringer is correct in his understanding.

DEADMARSH
01-12-2012, 15:41
Like most folks, it's not would I recommend, I have.

Main reasons people don't get into it, cost and painting.

Is GW gaming a cheap hobby compared to say, owning a boat or restoring a classic car? Yes, obviously. Is it expensive when you look at it in the context of playing with toy soldiers? Yes, to most folks it is. I've talked about the game to a lot of people where I work (at a manufacturing plant). Most of us make a decent living, some moreso than others. The point is, anyone I talk to could afford the hobby- we're not living off our parents or working in fast food or something. When people ask how much I spent on a particular army or whatever, I usually point out how much of I got from eBay, how much I got from internet discounters, and how much I paid retail because I know the cost is off-putting, frankly.

Starting from scratch, the hobby is easily a couple hundred bucks. That's a lot of money to ask from someone who may not even like it. Especially when you compare it to other pastimes of my age and income demographic- namely video games.

Also learning to paint isn't something folks are necessarily interested in. Some are, some aren't, but for those that aren't, there's not much you can suggest as alternatives other than pre-painted games that GW don't make.

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-12-2012, 13:33
Personally, no, at least not initially. The GW gaming I do these days is restricted to maybe a handful of games a year when I go back home and visit friends so there would be little point in trying to get a new person/friend into game systems I don't want to play myself. So if they expressed interest in wargaming I'd be happy to talk about it and demo something for them to give them a taste but it wouldn't be a GW game. Now if they really wanted to play a mass battle fantasy/space fantasy game I'd point them in the direction of some of the guys playing WFB/40k down at the club and set up a demo for them, but gaming for me are board, card or skirmish.

If you want to discuss price it is a lot easier to get a taster when you, for instance, can spend ~20 and have a perfectly viable crew for Malifaux and then have your own force to play with, compared to the ~70 that's about the cheapest you can start GW for.

Ultimately though, the thing I'd recommend are the things I'm having fun playing. If they turn out to not be interested in the games I play but want something else then I'll happily point them in the direction of other people, but it wouldn't be initial recommendations.

Lewis
02-12-2012, 18:37
No, not to an adult. I would possibly to a teenager who just wanted to make models and have fun rolling dice, but I think most adults would enjoy one of the better written rulesets if what they want to do is actually play a game and if they are starting from scratch without an adolescent nostalgia for the game worlds.

Fugazi
02-12-2012, 19:07
To Bloodbowl or Space Hulk? Sure.

To WHFB or 40k? No. I would recommend some of the miniatures, but I'd use a different ruleset.

New Cult King
02-12-2012, 20:34
I did, just before the Aussie embargo :mad:

I don't any more. Firestorm Armada however...

Thuggrim
02-12-2012, 21:39
A lot would depend on what they were looking for in the gaming, GW does fill a certain niche well and somethings are still good. I assume though we are looking at a new wargamer - in which case no. Buy in is too high, buying the army you like can lead to being repeated slaughtered on the table (Let face it some books have that one viable build still and that not even talking at tournament level - incredibly narrow and just plain bad design), release structure is poor - forcing you to buy an overpriced advert for rules which now seem to be really cheap flyers tucked into the back of the mag in order to use the new units, and service levels and permitted activity in stores is a joke.

I would happily recommend Wyrd, PP, Spartan, Warlord and even Battlefront - not tried TOR gaming but they look good, and not played any of Mantics stuff, but they seem a bit characterless and models tend to miss the mark for my personal taste (But I would encourage them to have a look and consider for themselves)

paddyalexander
02-12-2012, 22:54
The thing to remember is that there is more to the tabletop hobby than just war games. I know plenty of people who would describe themselves as gamers but have never played a war game. They play board games and rpgs. One of the best painters I know only plays rpgs. I've gotten several people into Warmachine & Hoardes over the last 5 years who've never played a gwPLC game before being introduced to games like space hulk, horus heresy & dark heresy by me.

This is a golden age for tabletop gamers because there is such a massive variety of great games to suit all tastes. The insane pricing, poor rules, poor quality models (finecast) & the active destruction of what was an amazing background story makes it impossible for me to recommend gwPLC products over their competitors many superior options.

lorelorn
03-12-2012, 00:30
No.

Price. Quality.

exceptions; blood bowl, or if they are eyeing any version of space hulk). Though from the phrase 'GW Gaming' I figure you are referring to Fantasy or 40k.

2ndCompanyVeterans
03-12-2012, 14:12
Yes definately been playing for 20 years still loving it,

lanrak
06-12-2012, 19:04
WHFB or 40k no way.
Over priced product and diffuse and over complicated rules sets.

Epic Armageddon, BFG, Space Hulk , Blood Bowl, Necromundia, Mordhiem , yes if they looked like they were interested in that genre...

Konovalev
07-12-2012, 13:26
Yes. I would and have. Three of them in fact. And they've been playing 40k for nearly 2 years now. And recently we've been getting into WFB.

We've also tried Zombies!, Infinity, and various boardgames like arkham horror, but they got boring quickly.

TheLionReturns
07-12-2012, 14:53
I couldn't recommend Fantasy or 40K to a friend in good conscience. Really it is the investment required to get started. It isn't just the price, although that is a major factor, but the number of models and the time required to paint and assemble them all. I would feel such an introduction would be too daunting and probably put them off more than anything.

I would recommend bloodbowl primarily I feel, if staying within GW. A team and required paints/brushes is only a modest investment and all that is needed otherwise is the board so space isn't a massive issue either. If they were likely to do their gaming at mine or a local club I would also recommend Necromunda or Mordheim, again because of the low model count. However, without readily available terrain, I think these could be a bit too daunting an intro too.

I see fantasy or 40K as more advanced products for people who have caught the wargaming bug, tried gaming, painting and modelling and decided they want to take the plunge. For a complete newbie there is just too much investment required (financially and otherwise) and there is a high chance wargaming won't be for them, meaning all that time and money is wasted.

2ndCompanyVeterans
07-12-2012, 15:11
It boggles my mind that people decide other peoples budget, also why on earth post here if you are so anti games workshop.

Whitwort Stormbringer
07-12-2012, 15:58
It boggles my mind that people decide other peoples budget
I suppose that depends on age group, your friend's disposable income, etc., but generally speaking for adults I agree, if I play a game and a friend is interested I might be up front about the cost but I'd also tell point out the fun aspects to the game. "Yeah the models and books can seem a tad pricey, but (bla bla bla wargames are fun don't the models look cool all painted up and so on)." If it's something that I think they would enjoy I wouldn't withhold my recommendation solely because of the price (unless the price is also keeping me away, in which case why would I recommend a game that I don't play anyways?).


also why on earth post here if you are so anti games workshop.
Well to be fair the OP was "would you recommend GW?" So if you don't like GW, you might post here to answer "No, I wouldn't recommend GW, here's why."

paddyalexander
07-12-2012, 16:22
WHFB or 40k no way.
Over priced product and diffuse and over complicated rules sets.

Epic Armageddon, BFG, Space Hulk , Blood Bowl, Necromundia, Mordhiem , yes if they looked like they were interested in that genre...

The problem is that there are other companies game systems that fill all those genres that are fully supported and in most cases better balanced. Here are some of the many alternate games:

BFG - Firestorm Armada
Epic 40k - Dystopian Wars, Heavy Gear & Firestorm Invasion
Necromunda - Infinity
Mordhiem - Malifaux & Gutshot

Why would I choose to play games that require hard to find, expesive and sometimes out of production miniatures and are not supported by the company that produces them?

GlenMorray
07-12-2012, 16:34
I wouldn't, mainly because I think you either love it and are in it, or you have no interest what so ever.

I've never met anyone that's never seen it before...Mind you I live in England soooooo...

Konovalev
07-12-2012, 16:50
why on earth post here if you are so anti games workshop.

GW General Discussion has a lot of that. For some people it seems to be the sole reason they post in this forum. The empty can rattles the most I suppose.

plantagenet
07-12-2012, 17:43
I want more people to play and help all that want to talk about it and will explain what it is if anyone asks but I don't actively advertise the game. This is much to do with the fact that there was always a huge stigma attached to the hobby when I grew up as much as it has anything to do with price.

paddyalexander
07-12-2012, 18:14
It boggles my mind that people decide other peoples budget, also why on earth post here if you are so anti games workshop.

You'll find that many of the anti-games workshop posters actualy love or at least at one point loved one or all of the universes/games that gwPLC have produced over the years. I've played games in one form or another in both the 40k & Warhammer universes over the last 20 years. Sadly I now only play the rpg and board games fantasy flight games produce as they seem to have more love and respect for the material than gwPLC themselves have shown over the last 5 years.

I would love to be able to sit down and play 40k or Warhammer without having to comprimise over the rules, the background, the cost of the models or the quality of the casts and I hope that one day I'll be able to play gwPLCs' games again with a smile on my face.

But right now the competitors that gwPLC flat out refuse to even acknowllage the existance of are providing me with all of the above with little to no comprimise required.

Scaryscarymushroom
07-12-2012, 18:37
I would love to be able to sit down and play 40k or Warhammer without having to compromise over the rules, the background, the cost of the models or the quality of the casts and I hope that one day I'll be able to play gwPLCs' games again with a smile on my face.

I want that too.

Thuggrim
07-12-2012, 18:49
The problem is that there are other companies game systems that fill all those genres that are fully supported and in most cases better balanced. Here are some of the many alternate games:

BFG - Firestorm Armada
Epic 40k - Dystopian Wars, Heavy Gear & Firestorm Invasion
Necromunda - Infinity
Mordhiem - Malifaux & Gutshot

Why would I choose to play games that require hard to find, expesive and sometimes out of production miniatures and are not supported by the company that produces them?

Would agree in general priciple except for the following points - I have never seen other games support the sheer scale of epic - and the diverse range of units. I don't think necromunda is at all comparable to infinity - infinity is a much more complex rulesset and to my mind too fiddle with special abilities and rules and ranks of abilities, which gives a very different playstyle. Mordhiem I would also argue stands on its own Malifeux is great but they are very different games - both good but different (Not played gutshot)

As I said GW do a certain niche - big model/ army scale combat at a beer and pizza level - well. Not something ideal for a begineer, while I wouldn't determine someones budget I think GW has a excessively high buy in for what is a limited experience. MUch better to show the strenghts of the hobby with another system and if they drift toward GW then thats cool.

BigbyWolf
07-12-2012, 18:54
I'd recommend fantasy to anyone. Can't really speak too much about 40K, as I don't play it.

WFB is by far my favourite war game, great setting, fun games, wonderful models. I'd have no reason not to recommend it.

Thuggrim
07-12-2012, 19:05
I'd recommend fantasy to anyone. Can't really speak too much about 40K, as I don't play it.

WFB is by far my favourite war game, great setting, fun games, wonderful models. I'd have no reason not to recommend it.

Aside from a complete lack of balance, I agree. Oh and the fact its not longer a highly tactical game in my view - to be fair 8th improved a lot of things, and made others worse which really did change the game plays. It is more fun in general but I cannot take it as a 'serious' game. Plus they are taking along whizz over the background which I am not a fan of.

Powerposey
07-12-2012, 21:29
Judging from this thread, not many of you succeed in sales. Absolutely, I would recommend GW. Why? I want more people to play this hobby, even if it is a system I might not play (like 40K). It is not me to talk about price, I sell the hobby on how much enjoyment I get from it and why I like it. Don't bring up the negatives, sell them on the positives. One negative can ruin several positives in someone's mind. If price comes up and they think it is expensive, I offer them to use one of my armies or a friend who plays that system for awhile to see if they like it. I wish more people were like Lord Cedric, I applaud his efforts in getting people involved. I find it hard enough to find players, why dissuade them with negativity from the start. First impressions are very important, if I was interested in something and someone who I respected told me "NO, that sucks, play this system" I would look at something else entirely. After you know the person is hooked in the hobby, then try and get them to play a system you prefer by showing them how that system works. If they like it better, great, if not, they might come around in the future.

You want an example, I watched a WM/H tournament at the 2012 Spring Fever Convention in Raleigh, NC. PP was there promoting it and they walked over and asked me what game I play. I replied that I play Warhammer,. The first words out of the rep's mouth, "This game is much better, Warhammer sucks" I asked him why his game was better, and all he could say was that my game (that I love and have invested over 20+ years in) was terrible. I thanked him for his time, and to this day have never played a game of WM/H. I know the rules, looked at the models, but it does nothing for me. I remember that PP rep every time I see the game.

Melkanador
07-12-2012, 21:45
You want an example, I watched a WM/H tournament at the 2012 Spring Fever Convention in Raleigh, NC. PP was there promoting it and they walked over and asked me what game I play. I replied that I play Warhammer,. The first words out of the rep's mouth, "This game is much better, Warhammer sucks" I asked him why his game was better, and all he could say was that my game (that I love and have invested over 20+ years in) was terrible. I thanked him for his time, and to this day have never played a game of WM/H. I know the rules, looked at the models, but it does nothing for me. I remember that PP rep every time I see the game.

Now you know, how many people feel when they visit a GW store for the first time.

Whitwort Stormbringer
07-12-2012, 22:12
Judging from this thread, not many of you succeed in sales.

Don't know about anyone else, but I personally don't take the salesman approach when recommending something to friends. I have little to no incentive to wax poetic about a game that I have no interest in just because it may lead to them coming over to my preferred system in the long run. If I have a friend that's interested in wargaming, I'm going to recommend the games that I enjoy playing the most. As it happens, I do play WFB and 40K, but I'd let a friend just getting into wargaming know that those are sort of "big fish" and a skirmish game is a good way to get started, plus skirmish warbands can often be incorporated into an army when you step up to the larger game anyways, so it's not as if that initial investment would be without purpose in other games.

If they were set on WFB or 40K I wouldn't deter them with the price, though. Just because you tell someone "this one is more expensive" doesn't mean you can't also tell them "but you get to field a bunch of models, use big monsters and siege engines, etc. etc."

Scaryscarymushroom
07-12-2012, 22:40
Judging from this thread, not many of you succeed in sales. Absolutely, I would recommend GW. Why? I want more people to play this hobby, even if it is a system I might not play (like 40K). It is not me to talk about price, I sell the hobby on how much enjoyment I get from it and why I like it.

Recommend vs. Sell.

Just sayin'.

I can sell something I don't enjoy. All I need to do is talk about its merits and stay mum about any reason not to buy. (Like the fact that other companies exist.)
I can't recommend something that I don't enjoy. Especially if I think other products better suit the purpose.

If I wanted more people in the hobby (which would be nice), I would just show them straight to the game I liked, rather than bothering around with them making a $250+ investment in a game I probably wouldn't play with them. Especially if I thought that their interest in the hobby in general would be strongly impacted by a first impression. Better to start them off on something that I like now than something that left a sour taste in my mouth.


First impressions are very important, if I was interested in something and someone who I respected told me "NO, that sucks, play this system" I would look at something else entirely.

In my area, the PP scene 5 years ago was full of 40k rage-quitters. I liked 40k. Having a rep (not an official rep, just a friend who quit GW) tell me "Your game sucks, this one is better" averted me from it for years before I could give it an honest chance.


After you know the person is hooked in the hobby, then try and get them to play a system you prefer by showing them how that system works. If they like it better, great, if not, they might come around in the future.

See, when I read this thread, the conversation that I imagined was,
FRIEND: "Hey buddy. What are you doing later this evening?"
ME: "I am playing some wargames later this evening!"
FRIEND: "Sounds interesting... What's it like?"
ME: "Let me recommend some things you might like.... [Not GW], [Not GW], and [Not GW] are some of my favorites."

If they got hooked and then later they wanted to try GW games, I wouldn't stop them.

If instead it were,
FRIEND: "Hey, I'm thinking of getting into Warhammer, and I know you have an army. Do you have any advice?"
ME: "Hmmm. Good question. What is appealing to you about Warhammer?"
FRIEND: "I want Warhammer because ... ... ... [Insert reason here]."
ME: "OK... ... ... [Insert advice here]."

that would be a different story. Depending on the reason, I might suggest GW and I might not. If they didn't know about other options to scratch the same itch, I'd take a moment to enlighten them. There is very little (IMO) that GW does better than every other competitor. But if their reason for being interested in Warhammer was "I played a 40k video game and the 40k universe is SO AWESOME." That's not something they could get anywhere else. My response would be "Here, let's play a quick (:rolleyes:) game and look at some books so you can see if you like the game."

It wouldn't be "OHMG SPESSHH MUREENS SUXOR PLAY SOMETHING BETTER." :shifty:

The thing about the PP rep is too bad. It seems like a common issue.

6mmhero
08-12-2012, 00:02
The problem is that there are other companies game systems that fill all those genres that are fully supported and in most cases better balanced. Here are some of the many alternate games:

BFG - Firestorm Armada
Epic 40k - Dystopian Wars, Heavy Gear & Firestorm Invasion
Necromunda - Infinity
Mordhiem - Malifaux & Gutshot

Why would I choose to play games that require hard to find, expesive and sometimes out of production miniatures and are not supported by the company that produces them?

The same reason why you visit a GW based section of the forum and comment on GW related topics when you are completely turned off their products....you find some enjoyment with GW even if it is just spending your spare time on a forum commenting on how much you dislike their products.

I like most of the games you have listed but have yet to have a game of Dystopian that I have enjoyed (mostly down to some of the players in the area.) Ireally enjoyed playing Uncharted Seas with my Shroud Mages though.

Darnok
08-12-2012, 11:56
Life is not black and white. You can like something, and still complain about it. Think about your family: I'm sure you love most of them, but I'm equally sure that you had more than one serious rant obout them as well. Same for GW (and pretty much anything else): you can love the background, models and games, but still think that not everything from GW is made of gold.


I like most of the games you have listed but have yet to have a game of Dystopian that I have enjoyed (mostly down to some of the players in the area.) Ireally enjoyed playing Uncharted Seas with my Shroud Mages though.

Interesting point, because it highlights one aspect that can not be stressed enough: it really depends on the people you play with. You can have the best models and games in the world - if you only have idiots to play with, it won't be any fun for you.

Thuggrim
08-12-2012, 14:33
Judging from this thread, not many of you succeed in sales. Absolutely, I would recommend GW. Why? I want more people to play this hobby, even if it is a system I might not play (like 40K). It is not me to talk about price, I sell the hobby on how much enjoyment I get from it and why I like it. Don't bring up the negatives, sell them on the positives. One negative can ruin several positives in someone's mind. If price comes up and they think it is expensive, I offer them to use one of my armies or a friend who plays that system for awhile to see if they like it. I wish more people were like Lord Cedric, I applaud his efforts in getting people involved. I find it hard enough to find players, why dissuade them with negativity from the start. First impressions are very important, if I was interested in something and someone who I respected told me "NO, that sucks, play this system" I would look at something else entirely. After you know the person is hooked in the hobby, then try and get them to play a system you prefer by showing them how that system works. If they like it better, great, if not, they might come around in the future.

You want an example, I watched a WM/H tournament at the 2012 Spring Fever Convention in Raleigh, NC. PP was there promoting it and they walked over and asked me what game I play. I replied that I play Warhammer,. The first words out of the rep's mouth, "This game is much better, Warhammer sucks" I asked him why his game was better, and all he could say was that my game (that I love and have invested over 20+ years in) was terrible. I thanked him for his time, and to this day have never played a game of WM/H. I know the rules, looked at the models, but it does nothing for me. I remember that PP rep every time I see the game.

Question was would you recommend it to a friend - if you hit friends with sales pitches think your missing the point of friendship. I actually used to be pretty damn good at selling GW stuff ;) I have gotten many people in wargaming because of my love of the hobby, but GW doesn't represent a package I would be comfortable promoting to a friend - as I would be glossing over too many issues.

That was poor sales on the reps part - and warmahordes is not for everyone it is an odd amalgemation of ccg and tabletop play to my view. It is also a very well written, strongly balanced games system support a variety of play styles and encouraging tactical play and rewarding player skill. The system allows for the reasonable portrayal of diverse units, provide real character to different forces - without the hideous rules crutches GW has to use as they system is narrow in scope (fnp on DE - really?). I almost never hit a point were rules are unclear - do not need to ship pages of FAQs to cover bad writing. Its downsides are that to my view it doesn't expand to large games well (Having said that I have found 6th plays better at smaller games sizes) and you on average need a better awareness of models abilities. Oh and they need to get some professional writers into the fluff department - its improved but still lacks a fair chunk of polish.

Thuggrim
08-12-2012, 14:39
Life is not black and white. You can like something, and still complain about it. Think about your family: I'm sure you love most of them, but I'm equally sure that you had more than one serious rant obout them as well. Same for GW (and pretty much anything else): you can love the background, models and games, but still think that not everything from GW is made of gold.



Interesting point, because it highlights one aspect that can not be stressed enough: it really depends on the people you play with. You can have the best models and games in the world - if you only have idiots to play with, it won't be any fun for you.

+10 interwebz sir.

6mmhero
08-12-2012, 18:24
Life is not black and white. You can like something, and still complain about it. Think about your family: I'm sure you love most of them, but I'm equally sure that you had more than one serious rant obout them as well. Same for GW (and pretty much anything else): you can love the background, models and games, but still think that not everything from GW is made of gold.

Sure, I understand life is not black and white, I moan about certain GW related things from time to time (finecast models that I have brought being the most common). But I do think there is a difference between thinking enjoying certain aspects but then moaning about everything you don't like over and over, sure get it off your chest. It just makes me wonder Why people spend their time commenting over and over about how much they don't like something. Personally it makes for fun reading and some of the most entertaining threads have been in this section of the forum.

Just to be clear people are entitled to their opinions and I am not saying that anyone is wrong to hold those opinions, it was just an observation.

simonr1978
08-12-2012, 19:15
It just makes me wonder Why people spend their time commenting over and over about how much they don't like something. Personally it makes for fun reading and some of the most entertaining threads have been in this section of the forum.

Just to put my own perspective on things, I used to love GW, we're talking way back in the days of the cross-over from Rogue Trader to 2nd Edition for me. Over the following years I gradually fell out of love with GW (For various reasons), but it still formed a very important part of my teen years, so much so in fact that even though I lurk and read on hear far more than I actually post and I haven't bought anything apart from Space Hulk in the last decade I'm still interested enough to follow the company, I've even knocked up the odd army list every once in a while (I know, I know, I said I haven't bought anything for a while so that makes me a bad person) but usually I then go to price it up and that scares me off, it doesn't help that this seems to coincide with a price rise of some description.

As for the original question, no I generally wouldn't recommend it to a friend, in fact I've actively discouraged my own eldest son from getting involved in GW gaming and it mostly comes down to cost. I know him well, I can make a rough guess how much enjoyment he'll get per pound and I'm entirely sure he'd get more bang for his buck out of his other interests and to be perfectly honest as the one who goes out to work to provide him with his pocket money I think I'm entitled to a say in how it's spent.

As for deciding other people's budgets, I don't think that's entirely unfair either. Before I'm going to recommend spending any amount of money on anything to someone I'm going to make a judgement to a degree on whether I think they can afford it. I don't mean that to sound harsh or judgemental, it's not, but for example there is a friend of mine I've kept in contact with who I would not dream of trying to talk into GW gaming, he's currently unemployed, living with his inlaws and with a young child to support. Frankly, it would be irresponsible and unfair of me to try and sell him on pretty much any GW game since it's almost certainly beyond his means at the moment and I wouldn't want to put him in the awkward position of having to say "I can't afford it." So before recommending any hobby to anyone I am going to gauge both whether I think the individual has the potential interest and the means to afford it, it's not about snobbery or deciding their budget for them, it's as much about sparing them and me embarrassment.

From my own experience I'd honestly say unless there's something in particular about GW that draws you in that no other company or system provides, there really is little to recommend it.

Powerposey
10-12-2012, 21:08
Question was would you recommend it to a friend - if you hit friends with sales pitches think your missing the point of friendship. I actually used to be pretty damn good at selling GW stuff ;) I have gotten many people in wargaming because of my love of the hobby, but GW doesn't represent a package I would be comfortable promoting to a friend - as I would be glossing over too many issues.. All relative points and I wouldn't want anyone to "sell" something they do not believe in. Having thought about it over the weekend, I just wanted to clarify some points. I think everything in life is about sales, from going to the movies with friends, trying to get a date, to going to lunch with co-workers. If you want the group or person to do something, then you are selling. It isn't a negative concept. Maybe I should have used "influence". My point that I was trying to get at was not to be negative right away. Let your friends make up their own minds, if they ask you what you think then by all means suggest the system you like. Not saying you are guilty of this, but most of the early posts on this thread are typical *insert Warseer insult* rants. I just find you get more bees with honey, but to start off with "that sux, blah blah blah" will do more damage to all wargaming than just GW.

That was poor sales on the reps part - and warmahordes is not for everyone it is an odd amalgemation of ccg and tabletop play to my view. It is also a very well written, strongly balanced games system support a variety of play styles and encouraging tactical play and rewarding player skill. The system allows for the reasonable portrayal of diverse units, provide real character to different forces - without the hideous rules crutches GW has to use as they system is narrow in scope (fnp on DE - really?). I almost never hit a point were rules are unclear - do not need to ship pages of FAQs to cover bad writing. Its downsides are that to my view it doesn't expand to large games well (Having said that I have found 6th plays better at smaller games sizes) and you on average need a better awareness of models abilities. Oh and they need to get some professional writers into the fluff department - its improved but still lacks a fair chunk of polish.I agree with everything you wrote here. GW does have its faults, I am not blind to that. That PP salesmen was horrible, I have since given it a fair look, but the models and rules aren't my thing.

Thuggrim
11-12-2012, 22:49
All relative points and I wouldn't want anyone to "sell" something they do not believe in. Having thought about it over the weekend, I just wanted to clarify some points. I think everything in life is about sales, from going to the movies with friends, trying to get a date, to going to lunch with co-workers. If you want the group or person to do something, then you are selling. It isn't a negative concept. Maybe I should have used "influence". My point that I was trying to get at was not to be negative right away. Let your friends make up their own minds, if they ask you what you think then by all means suggest the system you like. Not saying you are guilty of this, but most of the early posts on this thread are typical *insert Warseer insult* rants. I just find you get more bees with honey, but to start off with "that sux, blah blah blah" will do more damage to all wargaming than just GW.
I agree with everything you wrote here. GW does have its faults, I am not blind to that. That PP salesmen was horrible, I have since given it a fair look, but the models and rules aren't my thing.

Oh I can be pretty negative :P I except what your saying about 'selling' a hobby - in all truth I find scaller scale games ideal starters and mordhiem/necromunda are great for that - also LOTR , but business decisions and from what I have read design decision round the hobbit are a massive barrier to me. I think giving people a taste and letting them settle on their own thing is important - I also believe wargaming is something someone gets and is interested in or they don't - and if there is no interest I don't think they are ever going to 'get' it. I think the thing to me was the recommendation - if I recommend a product I like to genuinely believe it is a solid and good product, a weird value of my word thing. I have not recommended films I love, because I they are limited in appeal or done so with provisos as I am aware my tastes are ecletic and not the norm.

I don't think GW does everything wrong, in fact they still do some things exceptionally. I do think however they are a shadow of themselves in terms of business practice, and also feel they have become stale design wise - and a lot of the recent releases smack of the big model will sell - over good design. In addition I feel they have pushed the prices to the premium cost point and not matched that with quality of rules and production. I personally would would encourage a friend to explore my wide range of games - I am still picking up bits and fiddling with systems - but would always say even for a gamer they should be drawn to the aesthetic initially. So the choice kinda makes itself.

Spider-pope
12-12-2012, 13:10
Now you know, how many people feel when they visit a GW store for the first time.

I have never heard a GW employee insult another companies product or game system in more than 18 years of visiting their stores.

aenimosity
12-12-2012, 14:06
My point that I was trying to get at was not to be negative right away. Let your friends make up their own minds, if they ask you what you think then by all means suggest the system you like. Not saying you are guilty of this, but most of the early posts on this thread are typical *insert Warseer insult* rants.

I think you're getting a bit sidetracked. The original question wasn't what are the negative things you would talk about to your friend, it was:

Say you had a friend expressing an interest in gaming, would you recommend a GW game or something else? Why?

So if I had a friend interested in gaming, I'd straight out recommend warmachine. Not because I don't like GW stuff, on the contrary I love the background, most of the models and even playing the game. But I'd be more likely to push WM because it's much cheaper to get into (Australia), the games are a lot faster as well as being more balanced and with much more watertight rules.

I wouldn't badmouth GW, I probably just wouldn't even bother talking about them.

paddyalexander
12-12-2012, 16:45
I have never heard a GW employee insult another companies product or game system in more than 18 years of visiting their stores.

Would you consider outriders to be gwPLC employees because it sounded like the person who insulted gwPLCs' stuff was a press ganger. They are volunteers who promote PPs' games and support the community. They are not directly employed by PP. If you register a complaint with PP about this persons behaviour they would very likely cancel his press gang membership. For every good one I have no doubt there is a t least a bad one. I've yet to encounter a bad one myself.

I have had gwPLC gamers come up to me in various clubs and events and insult the non-gwPLC games I was playing or me directly for playing them several times over the years. Never bothered me because I was usually having fun doing what I was doing at the time.

In those same venues I've introduced people (who mainly play gwPLC or magic) to games like Warmachine and more recently X-Wing simply by playing the game, having fun and when asked discribing the game based on its' own merits.

In my opinion people with personality dificiencies like that will behave that way regardless of what game, hobby or sport they participate in.

T9nv3
12-12-2012, 17:32
My LGS owner got chewed out recently because he's been telling new customers to avoid GW and play PP games. Despite his best intentions, these customers merely felt like their intelligence was being insulted.

I've had several friends approach me on the subject. I've suggested "other games," complained about prices and rules....but nine times out of ten people really want to play GW games. I've helped a lot of people find used armies for a good price, but by and large, most people I've met want to build their own armies and really jump into the "hobby" aspect of things. I'm totally cool with that. To each their own. Most people already have their minds made up before they get into a hobby. I just try to make sure they see other options, both in terms of rules and purchases. I'm always up for a game of WHFB, I just make sure they know how much fun I also have playing Infinity.

At the end of the day, friends don't "really" care whether or not you'd recommend GW games. They really just want more information. Your attitude can affect that, but most people have already made their own decision.

Spider-pope
15-12-2012, 08:57
Would you consider outriders to be gwPLC employees because it sounded like the person who insulted gwPLCs' stuff was a press ganger. They are volunteers who promote PPs' games and support the community. They are not directly employed by PP. If you register a complaint with PP about this persons behaviour they would very likely cancel his press gang membership. For every good one I have no doubt there is a t least a bad one. I've yet to encounter a bad one myself.

I have had gwPLC gamers come up to me in various clubs and events and insult the non-gwPLC games I was playing or me directly for playing them several times over the years. Never bothered me because I was usually having fun doing what I was doing at the time.

In those same venues I've introduced people (who mainly play gwPLC or magic) to games like Warmachine and more recently X-Wing simply by playing the game, having fun and when asked discribing the game based on its' own merits.

In my opinion people with personality dificiencies like that will behave that way regardless of what game, hobby or sport they participate in.

Oh my issue wasnt with the PP guy insulting stuff. Which as you said would happen regardless of what particular hobby someone like that was in. It was the assertion that GW store staff do the same. Which in my experience is utterly false, if only because if they did so they would leave themselves liable. There is a big difference between GW players saying Game X sucks, and a member of their staff, in one of their stores saying Game X sucks. One is just opinion, the other could be misconstrued as an official statement by GW plc.

Keep up pushing X-Wing btw, i'm really hoping it takes off.

nosebiter
15-12-2012, 09:21
GW General Discussion has a lot of that. For some people it seems to be the sole reason they post in this forum. The empty can rattles the most I suppose.

Eh? So we are not aloved to post critical things about GW on the forums??

Why is that i mit ask? And are we "empty cans" eg stupid, because we prefer other products?

Spider-pope
15-12-2012, 18:23
As for the topic itself, yes i would. Why? Well i spent five hours or so today in GW Liverpool having an absolute blast playing The Hobbit SBG with several people, some old vets others new to the game. Anything that can provide that amount of entertainment is worth recommendation.

the anti santa
15-12-2012, 20:51
I've had several friends approach me on the subject. I've suggested "other games," complained about prices and rules....but nine times out of ten people really want to play GW games. I've helped a lot of people find used armies for a good price, but by and large, most people I've met want to build their own armies and really jump into the "hobby" aspect of things. I'm totally cool with that. To each their own. Most people already have their minds made up before they get into a hobby. I just try to make sure they see other options, both in terms of rules and purchases. I'm always up for a game of WHFB, I just make sure they know how much fun I also have playing Infinity.

At the end of the day, friends don't "really" care whether or not you'd recommend GW games. They really just want more information. Your attitude can affect that, but most people have already made their own decision.

Great point, I think there is a danger of recommending what you think your friend should like rather than what they would actually enjoy. It's a very common mistake and trying to push a newbie into something they aren't ready for can put them off for good.

For instance I think 40K is GW's weakest game and Bloodbowl is my favourite. But I could see a new player enjoying 40K as it's fun and even if you get beat you'll still kill a bunch of enemies as well. Bloodbowl on the other hand punishes bad play far more and making a silly mistake or getting some bad luck can end your turn on the 1st move.

Some people don't want a tight well balanced rule set, they just want to roll dice kill some doods and have a laugh. So they may not want to have to put up with getting crushed in the 1st dozen games of something like Warmachine before starting to get the hang of it.

Another factor is getting games, in the UK GW has a big advantage for that as not only is it accessible to newbies, but you will be far more likely to find opponents.

So I'd say it entirely depends on the friend in question, the best solution is to give them information and ideally play through some games using your models. If a friend is completely new to wargaming then what they are initially told may well colour their opinion for quite a while. I think it would be a shame for someone to potentially miss out on the hobby because they were given advice by someone who couldn't put their own biases aside.

Sotek
15-12-2012, 21:38
Depends on what they want to do painting, playing, fluff, compeditive and so on. It is the most widespread game. I'd shoo them away from some games (*cough warmahordes cough*) and depending on if they wanted historical or sci-fi or skirmish or whatever then I'd guide them.
That said with GW I'm pretty good at squeezing out value for money (you can make 1000pts with a BA battleforce and a HQ for example) :D

Scaryscarymushroom
15-12-2012, 21:53
I'd shoo them away from some games (*cough warmahordes cough*)

Why would you do that?

Warmachine is a great game, and it has plenty to offer hobbyists.

Spider-pope
16-12-2012, 07:38
Why would you do that?

Warmachine is a great game, and it has plenty to offer hobbyists.

Other than their supply issues with the UK, leading to the occasional bout of not being able to find the mini you wan't, i can't think of a single reason to get people not to play the game. I had many an enjoyable game while my local Indie store was still around to play in.

Whitwort Stormbringer
16-12-2012, 11:12
Why would you do that?

Warmachine is a great game, and it has plenty to offer hobbyists.

I think anti santa's quote sums up why some people wouldn't want to play WarmaHordes:

Some people don't want a tight well balanced rule set, they just want to roll dice kill some doods and have a laugh. So they may not want to have to put up with getting crushed in the 1st dozen games of something like Warmachine before starting to get the hang of it.

There's nothing wrong with liking the game, but there's nothing wrong with not liking it either. Just not everyone's cup of tea, same as GW or any other miniatures game out there.

I personally have never played but am just not a fan of most of the Warmachine models, although I like the Hordes aesthetic a lot better.

Shadowheart
16-12-2012, 11:38
At the end of the day, friends don't "really" care whether or not you'd recommend GW games. They really just want more information. Your attitude can affect that, but most people have already made their own decision.
That, pretty much. I wouldn't want to be held responsible for somebody's miniature habit anyway.

What I'd recommend is for them to have a good look around at everything on offer, and to do a little planning ahead to see how big of an investment a game/army winds up being. Other than that it's your hobby, your money, your time, your decisions.

Although I would point out that for the price of a 40K/Fantasy army you could get into several different skirmish games. So even if they aren't quite as appealing individually that is something to concider.

weeble1000
16-12-2012, 18:06
I would say no because I do not think Games Workshop should be supported by anyone in the gaming community. That said, GW makes solid (if premium priced) models, its games are well established and reasonably written, and GW's products are supported by rich and accessible fictional universes.

Considering that, GW games make decent entry games, but there are also significant drawbacks to starting with GW. Price plus model count are significant barries to entry, hands down. There are ways to play GW games at lower model counts, but the games are designed for high mlodel counts, which requires a wbhole lot of work to get started. For new wargamers, this can be very tough unless you have some hand-me-down models.

I would suggest starting with a solid skirmish game, even one like Skulldread which you can play with any miniatures.

But, I feel that the best game to start with is one that sparks the imagination of the prospective player. Wargames require a great deal of investment of resources, not the least of which is time. If you want someone to become seriously invested in wargaming, interest in the game itself has to be backed up by a deep interest in the narrative, even if it is not the narrative going on in any particular game.

If your friend is interested in the Warhammer or Warhammer 40,000 universe, that is a great place to start. If Malifaux sparks his interest, start there. Start with what he/she responds to on an intellectual and emotional basis and proceed from there.

Hicks
17-12-2012, 03:36
Haha, this comes up pretty often as I hang out with a lot of geeks who have always had an eye on wargaming, but never really tried it. Being a player of many games, when they ask me about good games, I really can't recommend GW games. The ones who already know about the 40K universe for exemple, come from playing videogames. They expect a small skirmish game with every space marine being able to pull of many tasks a turn and they don't even suspect wargames can have balance issues just like videogames.

So when I give them my honest opinion on GW games, they are always convinced that they will never ever touch the thing. Why? Well I'll give GW some good points first, they have some great fluff. However, this is changing at a rapid pace. The fluff is degrading into crap meant to impress 9 year olds. Also, it's very hard to try and find a game that has terrible fluff, so it's not all that important to the noobs generally. Also the miniatures. GW makes quality plastic kits, but more and more models, at least to me, look inspired by the dreams of a 9 year old (again). Marines riding wolves, flying mecha dragons, giant evil space monkeys... those are really breaking the games aesthetics IMO.

Now the bad:

Of course prices. It just costs way too much to start a GW game. You really don't get enough bang for your buck. We wargamers have grown a bit numb about that, but outsiders just shriek in revulsion at the thought of spending $200 on a tank and 10 plastic guys (and very much rightly so!). Just getting the books and accessories to play costs $200 from the game shop. You don't even have a model in your hands and there is already a huge hole in your wallet.

Quality now. Finecasts are bendly, bubbled, overpriced crap. I don't care what others say, all the ones I've seen were terrible. They might not "all" be so terrible, but at $30 for a special character, the QC is just horrible on those.

Quantity of models. People believe this is skirmish levels. Well no it isn't. It's a huge bunch of models and most of them are just there to take bullets for the one guy in the squad with the cool gun, or sword. The stuff that each model can do in GW games is very limited. Also, people tend to frown upon GWs way of selling squads. Yeah, it's $45 for 10 guys... but really what you need is 30 of those guys per squad. 10 will just not be able to do anything really.

The rules. OMG, the rules are terrible. First, GW should really release stuff for every army at a time instead of doing whole factions in one go and never touching them for 11 years. The core rules are archaic and they don't encourage thinking. It's way random and their is just no balance at all. You got a bad codex? Well screw you for the next 5 to 12 years. You have a beautiful army already? Well now they suck, buy the new OP kit and don't forget about spamming. Why get one new huge plastic kit, when you could get 6!!!

Now I don't want to sound too sour and I have no problem with people who enjoy GW games. But if I have to suggest a game to a friend who wants to start wargaming, I can never go with a GW game. The alternatives are just way better.

Whitwort Stormbringer
17-12-2012, 13:37
There are lots of options for playing in the 40K universe without using the 40K rules:

You could use one of the many generic sci-fi/modern rule sets out there and just stat up 40K models (Flying Lead and Tomorrow's War come to mind, though I'm sure there are others)
Inquisitor tends to reflect the 40K fluff better than 40K does, you'll need a good GM to keep things balanced.
Death Squads and In the Name of the Emperor are both fan-made 40K skirmish games. Don't know much more about either one than that.
Older editions of 40K, especially 2nd edition, tended to be smaller in scale.
If they're really into the Space Marines from the games, then there's always the "Movie Marines" list from WD300. Probably not what you want to be playing all the time, but it could be a gentle introduction to pushing models around the table and fits their existing image of the setting.

If your friends are just interested in playing games at home or the local club with you and each other, and not seeking out pick up games, then there's no incentive to play the current 40K rules if you don't like them.

paddyalexander
17-12-2012, 14:19
There are lots of options for playing in the 40K universe without using the 40K rules:

You could use one of the many generic sci-fi/modern rule sets out there and just stat up 40K models (Flying Lead and Tomorrow's War come to mind, though I'm sure there are others)
Inquisitor tends to reflect the 40K fluff better than 40K does, you'll need a good GM to keep things balanced.
Death Squads and In the Name of the Emperor are both fan-made 40K skirmish games. Don't know much more about either one than that.
Older editions of 40K, especially 2nd edition, tended to be smaller in scale.
If they're really into the Space Marines from the games, then there's always the "Movie Marines" list from WD300. Probably not what you want to be playing all the time, but it could be a gentle introduction to pushing models around the table and fits their existing image of the setting.

If your friends are just interested in playing games at home or the local club with you and each other, and not seeking out pick up games, then there's no incentive to play the current 40K rules if you don't like them.

You are forgeting to mention the awesome 40k role playing games from Fantasy Flight Game which is how I've been getting my 40k fix for the last few years. With several different flavours of the setting to choose from they provide a wide variety of fun slices of the 40k universe. They also treat the background with more respect thatn gwPLC themselves, so far ignoring all of the changes that were made to the background that have been made over the last two editions of the game. When playing a Zealous Black Templar Deathwatch kill team member I don't want to have to stare lovingly at the Ultramarines squad member and sigh deeply every time he enters the same room (no matter how much Mat Ward wants me to).

Whitwort Stormbringer
17-12-2012, 14:35
Good point! I personally have never played any of them, but have heard good things.

Tupinamba
21-12-2012, 19:43
lol, I definitely agree to an extent. Its a good job Black Library is putting out some great stuff nowadays.

Personally I would recommend GW as it has a great advantage other games don't: at this point in time, its probably the easiest to find a game with a stranger with as GW stores are everywhere (at least in England). I'd introduce someone with a game of LOTR SBG as its simple and less daunting than many other games. I'd definitely make my friend aware of the time, money and effort investments necessary in such a hobby. I feel GW puts out a great product so would recommend it for these reasons.

Me too. I also quite like some of their non mainstream systems, like WOTR, BFG etc. and have more than enough fun playing WHFB to speak against it.

But Id definitely talk with my friends about alternatives, such as FOW or Spartan Games. The community/network aspect of the hobby, that is, getting games and events happening is always the strongest pro-GW argument around where I live though and something Id discuss with them too, as its one of the main reasons I play whfb myself.

Also, as to the very high entry costs and models count, there is the possibility of making fillers (which I quite like from a creative perspective) and using alternative models, so even playing the mainstream games doesnt have to be that expensive.

Whitwort Stormbringer
22-12-2012, 12:32
On the flipside to GW's near-universal player base, a) other systems will never grow if you just accept that no one's interested and don't look for opponents (or try to drum up interest), and b) many players that are brand-new to wargaming, or any hobby for that matter, aren't necessarily eager to strike out on their own and would probably rather play with people they know than wander down to the club for pick-up games with strangers.

In light of that, I'm more likely to recommend a game that fits both the criteria of something that I think they would enjoy and something that I would enjoy playing with them. If we were to start out playing something that's not WFB/40K but the friend really got into wargaming and wanted to branch out, there's nothing stopping them from picking up GW games (or any other relatively popular game, WM/H players are pretty common in most places I've lived too) at that point.