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Camman1984
01-12-2012, 13:08
I am about to get one of these beautiful models and wondered about people's experiences with weapon options.

I want to use it for long range fire support and AA duties so not keen on the Kheres cannons.

How do people equip there's and what results have you had? Am right down the middle between auto and las cannons atm.

Rest of the army is
15 sternguard
20 tac marines
3 meltabacks
Ironclad
2 vindicator

hobojebus
01-12-2012, 16:27
twin linked skyfire lascannons yes please, and they can also then go tank hunting or carve apart terminators.

Bonzai
01-12-2012, 16:54
The Kheres assault cannons are amazing. If you can get central board position with them, then they work well as anti-air as well. The shorter range can hurt in that regard, but they are great all round weapons.

druchii
01-12-2012, 19:19
I'm a huge fan of the kheres assault cannons paired with the cyclone. 24" range is fairly mitigated because fliers have to move at least 18" on the table, and if you put the contemptor front and center of your deployment and he'll be shooting pretty much whatever he wants all game.

The assault cannons are also really good if you need to turn your attention to infantry, monsterous creatures, or hordes.

d

Mandragola
01-12-2012, 21:39
As an AA platform the lascannons are much better to be honest. You need the range. Also it's pretty easy to hit a flyer a bunch of times with assault cannons and not roll 6s (or roll 5 6s and kill it three times over). The lascannons, with the cyclone, will much more consistently kill a flyer and are much more likely to be in range.

No question the Kheres cannons are great fun though. It's not an easy decision.

druchii
02-12-2012, 03:38
As an AA platform the lascannons are much better to be honest. You need the range. Also it's pretty easy to hit a flyer a bunch of times with assault cannons and not roll 6s (or roll 5 6s and kill it three times over). The lascannons, with the cyclone, will much more consistently kill a flyer and are much more likely to be in range.

No question the Kheres cannons are great fun though. It's not an easy decision.

Now I'm no math guru, but I thought the math clearly favors the FOUR shot assault cannon over the lascannon for tank busting.

I'd be willing to bet that the kheres is even better. And as I said before the increased chance of rending/more high s shots makes it superior against pretty much all other targets.

You are right that the reduced range is the primary issue, but I still attest that with fliers having to movd at least 18 that the 24" range covers most of the table anyway.

d

Private_SeeD
02-12-2012, 09:29
Now I'm no math guru, but I thought the math clearly favors the FOUR shot assault cannon over the lascannon for tank busting.

I'd be willing to bet that the kheres is even better. And as I said before the increased chance of rending/more high s shots makes it superior against pretty much all other targets.

You are right that the reduced range is the primary issue, but I still attest that with fliers having to movd at least 18 that the 24" range covers most of the table anyway.

d

The Kheres fire's six rounds not four.

My Mortis Contemptor has dual Auto-Cannon's plus a CML, I was tempted to take the Kheres assault cannons but their low strength kinda put me off, so went with auto-cannon's cause imo they're right in between Kheres assault cannons and las-cannons... however I plan on magnetising those bits so if the auto-cannons don't work out I can try another load out

The Marshel
02-12-2012, 10:21
The Kheres fire's six rounds not four.

My Mortis Contemptor has dual Auto-Cannon's plus a CML, I was tempted to take the Kheres assault cannons but their low strength kinda put me off, so went with auto-cannon's cause imo they're right in between Kheres assault cannons and las-cannons... however I plan on magnetising those bits so if the auto-cannons don't work out I can try another load out

I think his point is that given the regular assault cannon kills tanks better then a lascannon, the 6 shot kheres should be stupidly better. That said, the assualt cannon is only slightly better than the lascannon, so it becomes a case of range vs viability against more targets. The additional shots from the kheres swing this well in the assualt cannons favour though.

Honestly, on a standard board you will often find it very surprising how far 24" actually is. with bs 5 the 12 assault cannon shots shred so many units its unbelievable. A Fully tooled up mortis dread is very expensive so i'd want it to be able to effectivly engage anything on the board. Cyclone missiles and a pair of kheres assault cannons is a very aggressive take or comers set up that will perform regularly.

Something to consider on the kheres range issue is that any flyer that takes 12 assuaged cannon shots and 2 missiles is in serious trouble. This means that flyers will want to try to stay out of it's range, but this can become extra tricky with the flyer movement. Even if the range doesn't let you kill the flyer, neutralising it via setting up a large death zone should go along way to keeping your own units reasonably safe.

finally, even if the longer ranged options are better for AA, you shouldn't really be relying on just a single mortis dread for your AA (especially given they have to remain still to use skyfire and are so damn expensive). Given you'll likely be looking for additional means of killing flyers, the mortis likely doesn't have to be purly AA at all.

Mandragola
02-12-2012, 10:57
Now I'm no math guru, but I thought the math clearly favors the FOUR shot assault cannon over the lascannon for tank busting.

I'd be willing to bet that the kheres is even better. And as I said before the increased chance of rending/more high s shots makes it superior against pretty much all other targets.

You are right that the reduced range is the primary issue, but I still attest that with fliers having to movd at least 18 that the 24" range covers most of the table anyway.

d

My experience is that the 24" range is a genuine problem, especially if you end up playing corner or short table edge deployments. Even in dawn of war a flyer can come on at the side where the dread can't reach it. My contemptor has assault cannons and I've found it frustrating. Its short range means it wants to advance to attack stuff but if it does that it gives up interceptor. That has meant shooting phases where it didn't fire, because it waited to see if a flyer showed up. Advancing tends to mean that it finds terrain around it and that can block LoS to flyers when they do come on. A lascannon dread can sit back, probably in some good cover of its own, and cover far more of the board's area. Then it will quite consistently kill or damage any flyer that moves on.

On the maths stuff, it's a complicated issue. Assault cannons are better than lascannons against high-armour tanks, where effectively both need 6s to penetrate. Actually the difference has reduced somewhat in 6th anyway, as each lascannon hit is more likely to take hull points off and that's now how vehicles generally die.

Consider an armour 12 flyer. An assault cannon hit causes a hull point 1 time in 6. A lascannon hit causes one 4 times in 6. Assault cannons are better against armour 11 and armour 13, but on armour 12 they are near-identical. The assault cannon will only ever penetrate armour 12 and the lascannon will glance instead sometimes, so the assault cannon is somewhat more likely to get a straight explode result.

But the issue as I explained it was about the variance of probability. I tend to find that assault cannons can more easily over-succeed or fail. 2 shots that are likely to achieve a result are more consistent than 12 shots, each of which on its own is unlikely to succeed. I don't need to do 6 hull points to a vendetta, I need to do 3, so the assault cannon's ability to sometimes do really well doesn't add anything. It's tendency not to roll any 6s is irritating. I'm assuming that both have a cyclone, which will generally cause 5/6 of a hull point in damage with BS5. Lascannons are more likely to do something, in my experience.

That said, I haven't run the maths on which one is actually more likely to get a kill on a vendetta. On any of the armour 10 or 11 flyers the kheres is clearly better - though the lascannons will also tend to get the job done and the flyer is probably stuffed either way, especially with the Cyclone hitting it as well.

To conclude: the maths is complicated. The assault cannons are perhaps a bit better, but only if they are in range and line of sight. You obviously can't put a number on that chance, but I find it a significant issue.

Camman1984
02-12-2012, 11:56
I did the math yesterday, the assault cannons barring range are the best option against all armour types except 14 where they are about the same as the lascannons just through volume of shots and rending.

Of the 48" range weapons, the autocannons are lots better vs armour 10, a little better vs 11 virtually the same 0.65g/0.65p vs lascanns 0.3g/1p and the lascanns are a bit better vs 13 and much better vs 14.

So if I don't take assault cannons, autocannons seem the better option as I have plenty of multi melta, but then lascannons look better and give me the +1 damage rolls

sprugly
02-12-2012, 13:41
Assault cannons are vastly better than lascannons at anti armour let alone kheres pattern Ones with the extra shots.

It's the range issue that would be the deciding factor. Especially as you have to remain still to fire interceptor.

As dedicated anti air is go las or autocannons. For all other roles the assault cannons rule.

Sprugly

Camman1984
02-12-2012, 14:37
I did work out the Kheres too. Tbh I was shocked just how good they were, kinda glad they are 24" range for balance sake lol

Worldeaters
02-12-2012, 23:55
That thing is so good with assault cannons it intercepted my hell blade and then overwatched my prince to death in one turn, not a bad return when it wasn't even his turn!