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View Full Version : Do I need to gunline ?



cornonthecob
13-12-2012, 10:17
As a dwarf player I try to use alternate methods of playing, heavy cc theme for example (Hammerers , great weapon troops and anvil of doom etc). I lose, all the time.

I can understand when it's my fault, but i'm starting to wonder if it's the army.

warplock
13-12-2012, 11:34
I think Dwarfs need a bit of shooting most of the time, but don't have to be gunline. They need the shooting because they're not that great in combat, and they can't buff their troops, so they want to swing the fights in their favour beforehand as much as possible. If you go full combat then unless you do some kind of Strollaz + Rangers + Miners shenanigans, you're so painfully slow that you'd be screwed if the enemy had any ranged attacks. I was under the impression that the Anvil is best for slowing units down whilst dealing damage to give your war machines more time to shoot, so if you're using it with a pure combat army you may be wasting some of its potential. Personally I think Dwarfs are best with a mixture of Hammerers and other great weapon troops, two or three war machines, and some other shooting. Also, it very much depends on what you're doing when you go for a 'heavy cc theme'. Units of 20 Dwarfs aren't going to cut it; Dwarfs without great weapons aren't going to cut it (literally!), etc.
I'm sure people will insist that, played right, Dwarfs can do pure cc, and I'm sure they can, but to me it seems very risky.

Tuttivillus
14-12-2012, 20:22
I agree with warplock. You don't need to go gunline but a couple of warmachines are needed. Make sure that they will perform well so You will pack a punch every turn. I learned that rune of reloading on both cannon and thrower works wonders (with other standard runes ofc ;) ), so You don't need to pack many machines. Use them to take down big threats (monsters, enemy war machines, etc.) , rest will be done in CC. I wouldn't underestimate shielded warriors though, they are fine and resilent anvil worth trying in bus formations. Anvil is fine with mixed lists, but darn, it is expensive, so I prefer to spend those points on other stuff in games below 3k.

theunwantedbeing
14-12-2012, 23:56
No, infact you should avoid doing it at all costs in my opinion.

All combat works when you have lots of units.
All combat doesn't work when you have very few units, the only deathstars that get to fight are those the enemy chooses to fight, or has no way of avoiding because of all the other units that are preventing them from getting out of the way.

Loads of anti-magic?
If you're getting an average of 10 dispel dice a turn and +5 to dispel the other guy is just going to 6 dice a single uber spell and there will be nothing at all you can do about it and all those points spent on anti-magic will have been wasted.

Gunline?
Guns don't force the other guy to come to you, usually all they do is force him to sit out of range of as much of it as possible and/or out of sight of it.
The issue for dwarves is that the other guy will likely have magic, which can have equally huge ranges as your war machines do so he can still hurt you, plus he'll likely have some much faster troops who can also reach out and hurt your war machines. Once those go, you're screwed as that's all you had to win the battle.

Take an all combat army.
Lots of reasonably sized units, avoid deathstars and hordes.
Take lots of cheap fighty character's.
Shooty troops and war machines should ideally be there to give you something else to do so you don't get bored but not so much that the other guy gets scared and sits back and waits for them to be gone.
I've used all khorne armies before....my god that is a dull army to use, no shooting, no magic and for the first few turns no combat either.

Feel free to listen to "Dwarf" players and gunline and take 1-2 deathstars, if that works for you then fine.
I'm merely stating what works in my own experiences from the other side of the table.

GrandmasterWang
15-12-2012, 12:45
You do not need to gunline. I generally do as well with f ight y dwarfs so it is not the army.

re: anvil and combat dwarfs. Miners are needed to make best use of the anvil imo.

Also, nothing wrong with going pure melee dwarf infantry but taking a cannon/bolt thrower/grudge thrower. Your opponents will enjoy facing this more than a pure gunline.

Mix up your lists, you'll get the hang of the stunties. Pure melee, make use of the challenfe and slowness runes to help you control the combats.

F or a lol you could try a ' ghost' list with your anvil. Deploy your anvil and thats it. Rest of the army is 3 units miners and a horde of rangers. Throw in an invisible warmachine too if you feel like it.

D epending on your play group, your opponents could be tailoring to your combat list so keep them guessing.

An important part of my success with dwarf melee lists is redirectors. 3 hordes wont cut it vs skilled opponents. Blocks of 10 warriors or 5 elites (minors, ironbreakers etc) to give you extra deployment/movement options can often help you engage on your terms

Moss
15-12-2012, 14:26
I think Dwarfs need a bit of shooting most of the time, but don't have to be gunline. They need the shooting because they're not that great in combat, and they can't buff their troops, so they want to swing the fights in their favour beforehand as much as possible. If you go full combat then unless you do some kind of Strollaz + Rangers + Miners shenanigans, you're so painfully slow that you'd be screwed if the enemy had any ranged attacks. I was under the impression that the Anvil is best for slowing units down whilst dealing damage to give your war machines more time to shoot, so if you're using it with a pure combat army you may be wasting some of its potential. Personally I think Dwarfs are best with a mixture of Hammerers and other great weapon troops, two or three war machines, and some other shooting. Also, it very much depends on what you're doing when you go for a 'heavy cc theme'. Units of 20 Dwarfs aren't going to cut it; Dwarfs without great weapons aren't going to cut it (literally!), etc.
I'm sure people will insist that, played right, Dwarfs can do pure cc, and I'm sure they can, but to me it seems very risky.

True that. Dwarf pure-cc armies are more of a gimicky/change-of-pace thing. You CAN have success with it, but it's just not the way the army is designed. It would be like taking a no-magic VC army or a Bret peasant horde. They can definitely win, but probably not consistently. Like people have said, take a balanced army with one or two warmachines and maybe a unit of quarellers. It's hardly a gunline, and that small amount of shooting does a lot to cover some of the dwarfs' weaknesses.

The Low King
15-12-2012, 23:18
minors

Im afraid there is an age limit in my army :p


The standard thing tends to be between 3 and 5 warmachines at 2400 points, about 1/4 of your army (with 5). The rest of it is all combat troops so its definatly not a gunline.
As pointed out, dwarfs need the warmachiens because they have no way of buffing units that cant compete with things like warriors and savage orc biguns anyway.

However, combat lists are reasonably viable, paticularly with the anvil. You do need to take a lot of redirectors to be effective though (Gyrocopters, small untis fo slayers/hammerers ranked 1 by 5, dragonslayers....).

raymon
16-12-2012, 12:38
I am all for the anvil in combination with miners and longbeard great weapon rangers. And line of two hordes (1 hammers the other feat weapon warriors) supported by a cannon and grudge throwers. The line holds 2 rounds while firing and then charges in. Miners and rangers try to pull apart and clog the opponents battle plan. While the anvil slows down my opponent or speeds up my units so that my opponents army comes in piece meal. Only a bsb as my other hero. Works very fine in my opinion