PDA

View Full Version : About champions and dividing attacks



Frost57
13-12-2012, 17:32
A friend brought up an issue dealing with a tactic I was planning on using. To stall an opponents death star unit, I was going to throw some slayers in its path. It was a small group of 1 dragon slayer and 3 giant slayers. I picked it this way because I hoped to constantly challenge and delay, and my opponent has never been one to refuse a challenge. I was worried though if he decided not to accept the challenge, and just eat the slayers alive. However, my friend said that as they are unit champions, he has to delegate attacks to them, and when I run them in a Kongo line formation, that at most he can kill is one per turn, even if he refuses the challenge.

Is that correct? I thought that if he didn't take the challenge, that once he got past the dragon slayer, the step-up rule would allow the rest of the slayers to die. Any input is appreciated, especially with any citation of the core rule book.

Hell Storm
13-12-2012, 17:56
All attacks at the same initiative step are resolved at the same time and you can't attack someone in the second row. Thus as long as all the enemies are the same initiative step whether you challenge or not, the same amount of dragon slayers will be attacked (one). What challenging does is ether they will have one person to try and kill him or you get to move a character (not a champion) to the back.

Frost57
13-12-2012, 23:04
Lets say the dragon slayer is already dead, next combat. I challenge with one of the giant slayers, and he refuses. Now when my opponent attacks, can they only kill that one giant slayer, or the ones behind him as well?

RejjeN
13-12-2012, 23:09
If all models in Base Contact (or able to do supporting attacks) attack at the same initiative and are unable to stomp or use breath weapons then they can only hit the model in base contact (In which case the Dragon Slayer or later one of the Giant Slayers) as Hell Storm said. If you challenge and he refuses then as long as he only has one character in the unit and it's not a mounted unit (with a different Initiative, or mixed equipment unit or something) then you'll keep his attacks at the same initiative. SO as long as Giant Slayers aren't considered Rank and File (I have no idea on that one), then it would take 4 combat phases to kill the unit (This is of course assuming they all count as Champions and all attacks by the enemy unit is on the same Initiative. Just feel I gotta stress this point since it's a concept that's very easy to get confused xD)

Frost57
13-12-2012, 23:24
Alright, thanks guys. So he was right. Well, I am not going to run with all those giant slayers then, not a friendly thing to do like that.

Lord Zarkov
19-12-2012, 11:58
If they count as champions (rather than characters) then you do not have to specifically target them - champions will be killed by sufficient wounds to the rank and file.

Read "Champions and Close Combat" on p93 of the BRB.

Models in BTB with the champ can choose to direct attacks against him, but they don't have to (the can attack the unit).

If the champ is attacked directly then only he can die

If the unit is attacked then when all the R&F models are dead wounds will overflow onto the champion.

thesoundofmusica
19-12-2012, 14:36
Yes but this particular unit will have no rank n file, only champions.

Arnizipal
19-12-2012, 15:07
Yes but this particular unit will have no rank n file, only champions.
Champions are just rank-and-file troopers with some extra bonusses.
As such 4 wounds on a unit containing only Giant Slayers will kill 4 of them.

thesoundofmusica
19-12-2012, 15:39
They dont count towards 5 rank n file for the purpose of Look out Sir... Why would they be rank n file here?

Afaik they must be allocated against or killed by overflow, although allocated attacks themselfs never overflow... So yeah.

Arnizipal
19-12-2012, 22:22
That's one way of looking at it.
Another way would be this: If you don't specify attacks on the champion, you attack the unit.
But since there's nothing left of the unit, the attacks flow over onto the champion(s).

dementian
20-12-2012, 04:38
That's one way of looking at it.
Another way would be this: If you don't specify attacks on the champion, you attack the unit.
But since there's nothing left of the unit, the attacks flow over onto the champion(s).

But you can only direct attacks at things you are in base contact with so they must attack the champion. Even if there was rank and file in the unit if you were only in contact with a champion. (E.g. conga line) you would not be able to direct attacks to rank and file instead of at the champion.

thesoundofmusica
20-12-2012, 07:37
You must attack models in base contact, in this case 1 champion. You cannot target "the unit" as some kind of abstract.

Arnizipal
20-12-2012, 18:25
Ah, indeed you are correct...
Seems like a glitch in the rules to me though.

sulla
24-12-2012, 20:51
Ah, indeed you are correct...
Seems like a glitch in the rules to me though.
Not the first though, is it?

leopard
27-12-2012, 19:12
So if I read this correctly, if you are in base contact with a single champion (only) regardless of a challenge you can only hit that champion? presumably how stuff like snake knights avoid damage when flanked - have the champion on the flank and the only model to hit?

Presumably a unit of "champions" such as slayers then does indeed need attacks nominating and allocating?

Would that also apply to Grail Knights? (not got the army book in easy access, they can all issue/accept challenges, and IIRC are all "champions")

T10
27-12-2012, 22:41
Ah, indeed you are correct...
Seems like a glitch in the rules to me though.

It seems to me that the rules ommit stating core mechanics and instead describe how these unstated rules come into play.

For example, it is pretty obvious the core mechanic is that each attack must be resolved against a specific model. Rank-and-file models are actually an exception to the default rule:

1. If you kill a rank-and-file model, you don't remove that actual model but in its place you remove a rank-and-file model from the rear of the unit.
2. If multiple attacks are resolved against the same rank-and-file model, resulting in the model getting killed more than once, then you remove a rank-and-file model from the rear of the unit for each kill.

Since the rank-and-file model is the most common target for attacks the rulebook deals with them first, giving the impression that the default behaviour in combat is that attacks are resolved against the unit, and that the models in the unit are little more than the unit's Wounds score...

belgarath97
28-12-2012, 23:06
Alright, thanks guys. So he was right. Well, I am not going to run with all those giant slayers then, not a friendly thing to do like that.

No they are all wrong. Champions can be killed if enough wounds have been done to the unit. Yes you must remove rank and file models first, then the musician, then the champion, followed by the standard bearer. As they are all champion models they can be killed, regardless of the rank they are in.


But you can only direct attacks at things you are in base contact with so they must attack the champion. Even if there was rank and file in the unit if you were only in contact with a champion. (E.g. conga line) you would not be able to direct attacks to rank and file instead of at the champion.

No, even if I am in base contact with the champion, if I do not allocate, the wounds go to the unit first.

Champions do count as rank and file for a character's look out sir, just not the champions version. Or am I completely wrong here?

Arnizipal
28-12-2012, 23:33
Champions do count as rank and file for a character's look out sir, just not the champions version. Or am I completely wrong here?
See the box at the bottom of page 93. For a "Look Out Sir!" you need 5 regular troopers (specifically not champions, though standard bearers and musicians are ok).

Also, please don't post three times in a row. Just edit the original post.

thesoundofmusica
28-12-2012, 23:58
No they are all wrong. Champions can be killed if enough wounds have been done to the unit. Yes you must remove rank and file models first, then the musician, then the champion, followed by the standard bearer. As they are all champion models they can be killed, regardless of the rank they are in.

No, even if I am in base contact with the champion, if I do not allocate, the wounds go to the unit first.

Champions do count as rank and file for a character's look out sir, just not the champions version. Or am I completely wrong here?

Yes you are completely wrong.

belgarath97
29-12-2012, 01:03
Yes you are completely wrong.

Wow I guess I am. Champions are't counted for characters, hmmm... been playing that wrong.

Page 93, first paragraph under CHAMPIONS AND CLOSE COMBAT, last sentence:"Note that any extra wounds inflicted upon a champion do not carry over onto the rest of the unit - once a champion is slain, excess wounds are lost.

So in this example, if everyone in the unit was at the same I value, it would take multiple rounds to get through the Giant slayers. If however the models in base contact (and supporting) with the slayers have different I values, these are separate attacks and could remove more than one Giant Slayer per round. For example:

XXX
CLH
_G_

The Lord (L) could attack a Giant Slayer (G), and if the Giant Slayer dies any excess wounds are lost, and another Giant Slayer steps up to take his place.
The Hero (H) could attack a Giant Slayer (G), and if the Giant Slayer dies any excess wounds are lost, and another Giant Slayer steps up to take his place.
The Champion (C) and all the supporting attcks (X) could attack a Giant Slayer (G), and if the Giant Slayer dies any excess wounds are lost, and another Giant Slayer steps up to take his place.

A very likely scenario against a Death Star unit, using the make way rule. The above does assume the the Lord, Hero, and Unit have different Initiative values.

@Arnizipal My apologies.