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Gadicitus
17-05-2006, 21:28
1/ Clanrat units - blocks of 25-30, full command - I don't want to go any bigger on these. Do I equip them with spears or not? 1pt each sounds great at face value, for a potential extra 5/6 attacks per round of combat after the first, but to equip an entire unit costs almost the same as a 20-strong unit of Slaves...

I'll mostly be facing Dark Elves...

2/ Other than using my Slaves as complete and utter fodder for RxB units, any quick advice against those evil elf things?

3/ Plague Monks - it seems the xHW is a given, for 3 attacks per rat isn't anything to scoff at - but again for a unit of 20 it's the same price as another unit of Slaves, and against DE I don't know how many attacks I'd get back in return...

4/ Would 2 Rat Ogres and 6 Giant Rats be enough to hold a flank in most 1000pt games?

5/ My army list @ 1k at the moment is basically:

Plague Priest w/ 19 Plague Monks + Full Command
30 Clanrats + Full Command
30 Clanrats + Full Command
22 Clanrat Slaves
10 Night Runners
8 Gutter Runners
6 Giant Rats
2 Rat ogres

Any very quick tweaks or advice on the units provided?

squeekenator
18-05-2006, 07:34
1/ Clanrat units - blocks of 25-30, full command - I don't want to go any bigger on these. Do I equip them with spears or not? 1pt each sounds great at face value, for a potential extra 5/6 attacks per round of combat after the first, but to equip an entire unit costs almost the same as a 20-strong unit of Slaves...

No. Definately not. It costs more and denies you the +1 to your armour save you get for a hand weapon and shield, and Skaven don't kill enemies to get combat resolution, they stay alive and win through ranks and outnumbering. I find 30 with a musician and a standard good in combat and very hard to kill. Try it.


2/ Other than using my Slaves as complete and utter fodder for RxB units, any quick advice against those evil elf things?

This may sound stupid, but Witch Elves. If you can charge those elf-things, every 4 attacks will kill a 13pt elf-thing. Pretty good for slaves. Have a unit facing them with a frontage of 8, and watch your opponent cry as his uber unit is weakened by slaves...


3/ Plague Monks - it seems the xHW is a given, for 3 attacks per rat isn't anything to scoff at - but again for a unit of 20 it's the same price as another unit of Slaves, and against DE I don't know how many attacks I'd get back in return...

A unit of 20 with extra hand weapons and the Banner of Burning Hatred whips elf-things like there's no tomorrow. T4 lets you survive even if you get charged, and with a frontage of 5, you then get an average of 4 kills in return. Against elf-things, this unit actually causes more wounds and has more static CR. In other words, against the elf-things, plague monks > all.



4/ Would 2 Rat Ogres and 6 Giant Rats be enough to hold a flank in most 1000pt games?

Oh, easily. I find a single clanrat unit enough, and some fear causers can really help, especially against the fragile and easily killed elf-things. However, you might want another giant rat pack, because one is not enough.

May the Horde be with you!

skavenguy13
18-05-2006, 11:35
I've got a question for you: why didn't you ask in the Council Of Thirteen? (look in my sig)


1/ Clanrat units - blocks of 25-30, full command - I don't want to go any bigger on these. Do I equip them with spears or not? 1pt each sounds great at face value, for a potential extra 5/6 attacks per round of combat after the first, but to equip an entire unit costs almost the same as a 20-strong unit of Slaves...

I'll mostly be facing Dark Elves...

Good size. The spears can be a good choice and sometimes they're useless. I personnally seldom take them, but it happens.

Spears will be good if you plan on having long fights, which means there's no unit that will help you on the flanks. Shields are good for survival, so if you have lower numbers (like I do) or count more on the 4+ save. I bring my clanrats in CC as a last resort, when my other units are unable to take care of the enemy. When this happens, mostly elite units are left. So I prefer shields because spears won't hurt them.



2/ Other than using my Slaves as complete and utter fodder for RxB units, any quick advice against those evil elf things?

They're clanrats with lower CC abilities, but don't cause panic. I often do a V with a clanrat and slave unit. Yes, my clanrats run away, but with 4 static CR and flank, the enemy will need many kills to win against the slaves. Plus, even if you lose, you don't really care. This sometimes wins me games (imagine 25 spearelves with a mage).



3/ Plague Monks - it seems the xHW is a given, for 3 attacks per rat isn't anything to scoff at - but again for a unit of 20 it's the same price as another unit of Slaves, and against DE I don't know how many attacks I'd get back in return...

If you take monks, it's either against a massive undead horde (skellies/zombies) or for the kills. Even if you only took them for the PCB, give them the weapon and they'll be able to kill something.



4/ Would 2 Rat Ogres and 6 Giant Rats be enough to hold a flank in most 1000pt games?

2 Rat-ogres, definately. I did that a long time with success. Though I dunno about giant rats, I often say I don't get the point of giant rats when you can take slaves. I once tried 1 pack and it always paniced off the board.



5/ My army list @ 1k at the moment is basically:

Plague Priest w/ 19 Plague Monks + Full Command
30 Clanrats + Full Command
30 Clanrats + Full Command
22 Clanrat Slaves
10 Night Runners
8 Gutter Runners
6 Giant Rats
2 Rat ogres

Any very quick tweaks or advice on the units provided?

1: split your night runners in 2 units of 5, preferably with 2 weapons.
2: with many night runners already, you could take 1 or 2 less gutter runners and make them tunnelers.
3: your monks are more important than clanrats, especially with the hero, so less clanrats and more monks.
4: give a musician to the slaves
5: I suggest removing the giant rats if you need points or for magic items (warpstone amulet). Or take a 2nd unit of slaves with musician.

Now that doesn't mean it's the best combination. It means that's what I would do because I'm better at playing this than what you listed. There is no best army, but some can be better for your playing style. For example, I play all my units as supports for each other. No skaven unit can act alone. So I seldom use monks and I don't remember the last time I took stormvermins.

Sasquatch
18-05-2006, 13:51
All good advice so far.

I'd also suggest dropping the Giant Rats. Six just aren't enough. Use the points to buy extra hand weapons for the night runners or poison for the gutters.

I'd suggest you keep the night runners as one unit. Five are only good at taking table quarters (though this is quite useful) and then, only if they don't take a wound. Ten, with xhw can actually cause a lot of damage, especially against elves which generally have T3 and low armor saves.

Drop the champions on the clanrats, they're only good to protect your heroes by accepting challenges. They cost three time the price of a normal rat and only give one extra attack, not worth it.

Gadicitus
18-05-2006, 14:01
Thanks very much for the advice, chaps! I'm at work at the moment so I can't easily tweak my list - but when I get home I'll have a tinker and put forth the ranks of Clan Ak'hash for scrutiny...

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-05-2006, 14:45
This may sound stupid, but Witch Elves. If you can charge those elf-things, every 4 attacks will kill a 13pt elf-thing. Pretty good for slaves. Have a unit facing them with a frontage of 8, and watch your opponent cry as his uber unit is weakened by slaves...


That wide a frontage is a distinctly bad idea. Sure, you get a lovely wide angle of charge, but your unit is also horrifically unwiedly. Plus, any Witch Elves encountered aren't going to be wide enough for you to really benefit from it. If they have a frontage of 4, your only getting 6 in BTB, which, according to your assesment above, would only guarantee one dead Witch Elf. And then, provided they have a Champion, they chuck out 10 poisoned attacks straight back, or, another way to put, chew up your unit and spit it back out! Your best off shooting Witch Elves if you ask me!

Gadicitus
21-05-2006, 21:13
Righto - my opponent is fielding a fluffy 'raiding force' - lots of Repeater Crossbows, lots of Dark Riders and Corsairs.

Basically, he can stand and shoot and I'm going to die. In my other games with him he has used his Dark Riders to flank me, and with their ridicolous movement it's pretty much invevitable. Also, he's got a unit of Harpies that are used to march block and generally harass me.

With an army based on sheer numbers, the thought of someone being able to so thoroughly dictate the battle like that really scares me!

Obviously in larger point games I'm going to field a couple of Ratling Guns and a Warp Lightning Cannon which along with Rat Ogres and Rat Swarms should hopefully be enough to hold my flanks

Any tips based on these extra bits of info? :)


PS. Here's my latest painted model:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/wayerst/Skaven/rogre1.jpg

skavenguy13
22-05-2006, 02:47
What about putting a ratling gun on each flank? You won't have any left for the center, but dark riders won't be able to flank you at all. And the harpies will need very precise spots to land behind you AND out of range of the ratling guns.

If you use screens of slaves, you should then be able to resist the crossbows and go for the kill.

May I suggest looking at the Council Of Thirteen for advice?
should be about there --------------l

Artemis_Quinn
22-05-2006, 03:00
OK, here's how I personally would take care of some of this....

My clanrat units would not have 30 rats to them or spears or even a command for that matter (except for the monks) I always run clanrats in units of 25 without command..... this is because generally speaking 25 outnumbers anyways, cancelling out the standard and usually I can have a support unit to pitch in and even out the battle or even tip it in my favor.... so my clanrat units cost 50pnts less than yours each!

Also, I think night runners in your situation are slightly more useable than gutter runners... I say this just because for the points you're paying for the gutter runners to go out and harass the enemy (which sounds like a gunline with dark rider/harpy harassment of its own) you're being harassed worse. I'd take two units of 10 with 2 hand weapons and have them provide a flank watching duty, barring dark riders from getting too close, and harpies from wanting to get charged by them. This will hopefully free you from so much march blocking. And if I'm thinking correctly,if you can get the charge you should probably be able to do at least descent damage to either unit

I'm not going to comment on the ogres or rats since I don't use them myself so have no reason to say anything.

BTW... i love plague monks...... they are une unit I never leave home without.

Lastly.... how much magic do you guys play with generally? If those dark riders are really giving you that much a of a problem then that's nothing a warplightning can't fix :D..... I would say find points for a ratling, but those never workl for me either, I'm bad at placing them so they always end-up not being able to see something or moving..... Approximately how many dark riders does he feild and in what unit sizes? this would help me to know if the night runners stand a chance.

best of luck.

Ganymede
22-05-2006, 03:39
No amount of slaves can hold against witch elves, don't let anyone fool you. six witch elves average damn near eight kills. Already the slaves are losing by four, and if the witches have a standard or a rank or two, it is game over. Additionally, it takes six slave attacks to guarantee a kill against a witch elf; remember that it is WS 2 versus WS 5, they need 5+ to hit.

skavenguy13
22-05-2006, 11:51
it takes six slave attacks to guarantee a kill against a witch elf

A kill is NEVER guaranteed.
I'd say ratlings, warpfire throwers or rat-ogres (at least 3) might be good against them. Though I never played against witchies personally...

EDIT: a flank charge could be very good, especially with clanrats.

Ganymede
23-05-2006, 02:10
"guaranteed" is simply a colliquilism for having a near 1 to 1 chance.

Censer bearers will utterly evaporate a unit of witch elves. The smog alone will kill half of those in base to base contact. Then you factor in the attacks, each individual censer bearer is capable of killing an elf, with eight censer bearers that's eight kills.

In fact, Censer bearers are incredible against many different unit types.