PDA

View Full Version : WoC advice for fighting against HE.



White_13oy
21-12-2012, 03:00
Hello, So I've been having some bad luck against my friends HE, my problem stems from him with ASF and GW. I run a mono-Khorne list and just can't see what to do beyond running a wizard and blowing them up, or a Hellcannon. So I guess my questions here are:

How do you WoC player fight against HE in general?
Is it even possible to melee them?
Can a Mono-Khorne list even work?

The only thing I want to avoid is Chosen Star and Maurader hordes, even though I know they'd work perfectly, I just like the Armored Core look and style. He also sometimes uses Teclis...

BlackPawl
21-12-2012, 08:32
As a HE player in a campaign against WoC I can say that WoC are a real tough match against HE. We have only played two small games so far (500 and 1000) but so far normal Warriors with their good stats and their good save have wipe me from the table in the second game. My bowmen / spearmen can do nearly nothing against them (they hit, but have trouble to wound and if they wound there will be the 3+ / 6++ save). And small units of WL / SM get crushed by chariots.

Of course in our games the magic phase was not important enough (no teclis) to change the game.

Try some chariots against his special units and go against his speerelves with your warriors. If he can not support them with magic your warriors are strong enough on their own.
I can not tell if a Mono Khorne list will work because the list I have played against where mixed list with a sorcerer (fire / slaanesh) in it.

Sh4d0w
21-12-2012, 11:27
Ok the first thing you need to know is that HE can be quite a tricky match up for WOC depending what they take, in reality anything that runs into a 30 man white lion horde will die and since WOC don't have that many units it can be a pain to avoid. I suggest a double hellcannon however, wounds the elves on 2's, if he has a stray support unit out of BSB and general range a single hit has a slightly less than average chance to make them run. I also suggest bringing at the very least 2 warhound units to bait and redirect, you may require more. Chaos knights also work a treat, a 7 man knight unit running into anything that isnt White Lions or Swordmasters will win the war of attrition. At the end of the day though they are still a difficult matchup.

O and if he uses Teclis, just shake his hand and pack up your models because he is one of those things still left from 7th edition that just break the game.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-12-2012, 11:38
Khorne has the most problems because it lacks magic. You don't have a lot of shooting usually and Warriors/Marauders are M4. This means you're outclassed in magic, shooting and movement and can only compete in combat. Getting there will take a while, and you probably won't get even fair matchups in combat due to casualties on the way.

Horse Marauders or mounted characters can deal with Eagles and warmachines. Warriors can deal with almost any combat block of equal size unless, as BlackPawl points out (I'm his opponent), magic screws the equation. Trolls, Ogres and Knights give you some much-needed speed and mobility, and chariots do not care about ASF. Khorne Warriors will of course lose quite a chunk of models if they just front charge into White Lions, so take some precaution. Having said that, Frenzy doesn't help either!

A Hellcannon is always a good investment. Marauders...hmm, I think they'll just die in droves and won't have much effect unless you field 50-60. They give HE archers a huge target.

Rake
21-12-2012, 14:16
Lets start with the basics: Mono Khorne... as in nothing with another mark, or as in nothing that doesn't have a mark of khorne? If the former you will have the tools laid out below. If the latter, kiss your ass goodbye. You stand absolutely no chance against a player of equal skill. Even so I will list your best choices: Marauders (you will need minimum 60 preferable 2 hordes of 50) and chariots for combined charges. You might win the first game if he isnt prepared but if he adapts you die. Horribly. He beats you in HtH, you have no mobility, and no magic. So ultimately no hope.
If you field things that don't have the mark of Khorne then you have several answers. 1: Marauders (as mentioned before) 2: Chariots (as mentioned before) 3: Hellcannons (with 1 you depend on a lucky hit, with two you have to be UNlucky) 4) Throgg.
I understand if you don't run special characters, but Throgg is a beast. 12" march to the flank of the horde, wound over 20+ of them on a 2+ with no AS. End of horde. We ran a 2000 pt tournament. Between throgg, 2 hellcannons (1 hit, the rest scattered) and 2 chariots there were was no significant combat. The lions got decimated by throgg. He killed 23 of them with his breath weapon. A direct hit murdered the spearmen who were trampled by the chariots. and the PG that had teclis and the super banner never made it into significant combat (hounds FTW). The rest was pretty much chaff. So yeah the tools are there but playing mono khorne is like shooting while blindfold.

Citadel97501
21-12-2012, 15:31
Teclis is not that big of a deal, if you want to kill him just engage the unit he is hiding in and don't challenge, I would suggest using either the new slaanesh cavalry since it can also have ASF, which nullifies the advantage and can easily kill him with 6 attacks which wound him on 2's. It is also very cheap on points in comparison.

If Teclis is not in a unit, the Hell cannon or a Disk hero can drop him in a heart beat.

White_13oy
21-12-2012, 15:32
I'm good with things without having the MoK. I'd like to get some Trolls, but the models are just bad, and as for the chariot, I want one, but I am waiting for the new model. I do own one Hellcannon and will try it out, Just hard to fight 40+ WL.

Also, I really want to buy the Skullcrushers, are those a really bad choice against HE?

It's good that I don't normally run unit champions.

CaylenTor
21-12-2012, 15:36
A friend of mine used the Orc & Goblin River Trolls to make his Chaos Trolls - they look really good. Might be a place to start?

judaism
21-12-2012, 15:54
Skullcrushers are the best/cheapest monster cav in the game right now, so yes they work well against anything. Get them in on a flank against any kind of infantry you are worried about and you will watch the bodies pile up.

byrothegyro
21-12-2012, 16:07
I'm using river trolls as well, they are awesome models.

@citadel97501 - if his unit has a character or champion in it he will have to challenge, it's the LAW. Hellstriders are only strength 3 unless he takes a shadow sorcerer and gets mindrazor on them so they will be wounding on 3's not 2's. Also the HE will still go before them because their int is higher.

Like stated earlier hellcannons are good for that. Throgg is good because of his breath weapon and he's just awesome. You could always take stream of corruption on a character if you don't want to take a special character, it should still work pretty well. You could also put a chaos lord on a chaos dragon and stream of corruption, that would give you 3 breath weapons and really good movement to line up on the flank of the WL and just fry them. He'd be pretty crazy expensive though but it would be cool.

White_13oy
21-12-2012, 16:26
I've always wanted to try a Dragon Lord Kitted out that way, too bad there isn't a model for that, except that really old model of Ergrimm.

dementian
21-12-2012, 18:42
@citadel97501 - if his unit has a character or champion in it he will have to challenge, it's the LAW.

Hey byro.

I had a question about the WoC forced challenge mechanic. I was under the impression that the champions of his units didn't have to challenge as I thought, and was told by my friend, (friend is WoC not me) that only characters are forced to challenge because of the gift of the gods rule (or something). If a character is in the unit and there is also a champion can the WoC player challenge with a champion to keep his character out of a challenge? Or does the character since he is forced to challenge need to declare a challenge before a champion could?

I am just a little unsure about this mechanic and my friend doesn't take a lot of time to learn or explain his rules. Our battles seem to be me constantly reminding about stupid tests, rampage tests, frenzy tests etc. So I feel it is best that I figure out his army rules as well.

White_13oy
21-12-2012, 21:04
Yes, our unit champions have to challenge, they only roll on the chart if a warshrine is present.

Von Wibble
22-12-2012, 10:39
A chaos champion can challenge, yes. And if he does so then your character does not have to challenge.

My own high elves don't like enemy war machines and impact hits. Unfortunately magic is the other big weapon and Khorne doesn't do that. Chaos warriors tend to lose against eleven elites in similar numbers.

A large unit of Khorne marauders can do very well against the elites. They take a lot of casualties but they dish out just as much and cost half the price of the elves.

MyNameDidntFit
22-12-2012, 11:11
@citadel97501 - if his unit has a character or champion in it he will have to challenge, it's the LAW. Hellstriders are only strength 3 unless he takes a shadow sorcerer and gets mindrazor on them so they will be wounding on 3's not 2's. Also the HE will still go before them because their int is higher.
False. Models with ASF strike simultaneously and neither get rerolls. Initiative plays no part.


Hey byro.

I had a question about the WoC forced challenge mechanic. I was under the impression that the champions of his units didn't have to challenge as I thought, and was told by my friend, (friend is WoC not me) that only characters are forced to challenge because of the gift of the gods rule (or something). If a character is in the unit and there is also a champion can the WoC player challenge with a champion to keep his character out of a challenge? Or does the character since he is forced to challenge need to declare a challenge before a champion could?

I am just a little unsure about this mechanic and my friend doesn't take a lot of time to learn or explain his rules. Our battles seem to be me constantly reminding about stupid tests, rampage tests, frenzy tests etc. So I feel it is best that I figure out his army rules as well.
Any model that may challenge, must challenge. So WoC Champions must challenge. Eye of the Gods is the rule the characters have, it simply means that if they kill a character in a challenge or put the last wound on a Large Target they get a roll on the table.

And, yes, the Champion can challenge to keep the character out of a challenge.

If he wants to check that, it's under the Eye of the Gods rule entry above the table in the army book. Second paragraph under the header, I think.

Azmodian
28-12-2012, 12:49
[QUOTE=MyNameDidntFit;6559640]False. Models with ASF strike simultaneously and neither get rerolls. Initiative plays no part.

Uh... You are incorrect on the ASF striking at the same time... It falls on Initiative if both have ASF. You are correct about the rerolls.

Shadowfane
28-12-2012, 14:28
[QUOTE=MyNameDidntFit;6559640]False. Models with ASF strike simultaneously and neither get rerolls. Initiative plays no part.

Uh... You are incorrect on the ASF striking at the same time... It falls on Initiative if both have ASF. You are correct about the rerolls.

Rulebook, page 66, ASF special rule (snipped for relevant info):
... If a model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are performed simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the rerolls normally granted by this rule.

grimnar1031
28-12-2012, 14:39
A pure Khorne army can work wonderfully, in a 2000 pt game you dont have to spend 350+pts on a wizard lord and 200 pts on a hero!!! so you can buy 2+_tooled up Fighty lords.
Give magic resistance 2 or 3 to the important units and at least half of the magic damage will be ignored, if you go with 21 warriors MoK shield + halbard +champ & st, 7 wide the front rank has 22 attacks at ws5 s5 I5 4+ save and if there are any models left in the 2nd rank they add additional attacks, if you bang in a character in as well then you could easilly add 6 more attacks to that.
Marauder horse are great against elves, flank attacks and war machine hunters equal to none, give them flails Mok and get 10 s5 attacks on the charge.
Warhounds are so valuble in any chaos army, 4 units of 5 cost 120pts - a bargain, use them in front of your expensive units and screen them from incomming fire - when they die you are immune to psychology so you dont care.
a single unit of 30 marauder foot with lgt arm + sh or flail looks intimidating, it will either be shot to death (who cares) protecting the warriors or if they ignore it then when it charges you could be looking at up to 41 s5 attacks on the charge all for somewhare in the region of 180pts.
this gives you about 400 points to spend on other fun things e.g. warshrine, hvy cavalery etc.
I use 2 units of warriors with 1 unit of marauders in the middle, against shooty armys the 4 units of hounds are spaced out in front of the 3 block units with horsemen on the flanks, you dont have to worry about frenzy due to the hounds blocking line of site, and in your turn 2 move the hounds to 1 inch away at a 30 degree angle (not flush) from the High elves (no charging) they then either have to shoot the hounds or charge them hopefully either showing the units flank (ASF with 3 models - so what) or breaks their battle line for your warriors to exploit the holes - easy win.
Dont play HE at their game - flank attack them with cavelary,use small cheap screening units (50 skavenslaves in single line in front of my skaven force or possibly 2 of them with a millimitre between them) if they have a huge unit of fighty warriors then ignore it and destroy the rest of their army first, but must importantly kill their army standard bearer as soon as you can (any army standard in any army) when you beat them by 1 or 2 you dont want them getting a re roll.
when facing teclis dont worry, magic resistance 3 and a 3+ save will help to reduce the damage until you can charge him, challange with your champion and bludgeon him to death with your basic warriors.
If all else fails then go with allies, fleshound are great against elves and a greater deamon will walk through anything.
Most importantly - have fun whilst playing

MyNameDidntFit
28-12-2012, 14:47
Wow. That's got to be the most excited I've ever seen anyone about MR. MR covers Direct Damage and Magic Missiles only. These are not the things that should trouble a Warriors of Chaos army. Buffs and Debuffs are where the real power of the magic phase lies when facing WoC. If my enemy is throwing magic missiles at me with Teclis, it's because he's got spare dice at the end of a phase or he's clearing chaff.

Magic resistance is useless.

(not saying Khorne armies don't work, I rarely field a sorcerer myself, just that MR is horrible and overpriced)


Rulebook, page 66, ASF special rule (snipped for relevant info):
... If a model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are performed simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the rerolls normally granted by this rule.
Yeah. That.

danny-d-b
28-12-2012, 16:33
Bacicly try to field as many chariots/ASF as possible to take out his killing power, his core is going to be poor against you short of mindrazered spearmen/seaguard bacicly use helcannons to cut there combat units to a confortable size then charge in and take them out with impact hits and ASF

Anything that isn't a chariot/ASf take in large number or suvivable- trolls and throgg are a good idea, especialy against White lions

also try to get your combat units to match up right against his specials, he'd want his sword masters up against any of your elite infantry/trolls, and his while lions vs your knights so try and pick the fights, if you go the other way round, you should eventually win combat, even if you do take losses

Azmodian
29-12-2012, 21:18
[QUOTE=Azmodian;6564657]

Rulebook, page 66, ASF special rule (snipped for relevant info):
... If a model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are performed simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the rerolls normally granted by this rule.

Yup sir you are correct. My mistake.

Tarian
30-12-2012, 19:01
A pure Khorne army can work wonderfully, in a 2000 pt game you dont have to spend 350+pts on a wizard lord and 200 pts on a hero!!! so you can buy 2+_tooled up Fighty lords.



Give magic resistance 2 or 3 to the important units and at least half of the magic damage will be ignored, if you go with 21 warriors MoK shield + halbard +champ & st, 7 wide the front rank has 22 attacks at ws5 s5 I5 4+ save and if there are any models left in the 2nd rank they add additional attacks, if you bang in a character in as well then you could easilly add 6 more attacks to that.

Magic resistance, unfortunately, does next to nothing against the actually dangerous spells, like Mind Razor, or Flesh to Stone, etc. Another problem is that you're going to lose a lot of those MoK Warriors if they run into an elven elite unit, especially something like White Lions, as they'll be wounding on 2s with no armor saves, and they're cheaper per model than Warriors.


Marauder horse are great against elves, flank attacks and war machine hunters equal to none, give them flails Mok and get 10 s5 attacks on the charge.

Marauder Horse are perfect *for* the High Elves as they're lightly armored with low saves. Speed of Asuryan will see them off really quickly, and most of them won't ever get to attack. Not to mention if the HE player is fielding War Machines in any decent number, then they're really hurting themselves.


Warhounds are so valuble in any chaos army, 4 units of 5 cost 120pts - a bargain, use them in front of your expensive units and screen them from incomming fire - when they die you are immune to psychology so you dont care.

Warhounds will again die instantly to Speed of Asuryan, and HE ballistic shooting is really, really bad. It's the magic that you worry about at range, and the very powerful CC units they throw down.


a single unit of 30 marauder foot with lgt arm + sh or flail looks intimidating, it will either be shot to death (who cares) protecting the warriors or if they ignore it then when it charges you could be looking at up to 41 s5 attacks on the charge all for somewhare in the region of 180pts.

If there are only 30 Marauders, then that's a job for the HE core, as they're worthless against the heavily armored WoC units. Again, you need more than 30 Marauders to see you through SoA with anything that's not a small throw-away HE block. At least a second block of marauders.


this gives you about 400 points to spend on other fun things e.g. warshrine, hvy cavalery etc.
I use 2 units of warriors with 1 unit of marauders in the middle, against shooty armys the 4 units of hounds are spaced out in front of the 3 block units with horsemen on the flanks, you dont have to worry about frenzy due to the hounds blocking line of site, and in your turn 2 move the hounds to 1 inch away at a 30 degree angle (not flush) from the High elves (no charging) they then either have to shoot the hounds or charge them hopefully either showing the units flank (ASF with 3 models - so what) or breaks their battle line for your warriors to exploit the holes - easy win.

Or ignore the hounds completely and let you come to them, knowing they have magical superiority. And hardly any proper HE block will worry about a few hounds or marauders on their flank, especially the Elites, like Lions or Swordmasters. (Swordmasters are really, really bad to flank with small soft units.)


Dont play HE at their game - flank attack them with cavelary,use small cheap screening units (50 skavenslaves in single line in front of my skaven force or possibly 2 of them with a millimitre between them) if they have a huge unit of fighty warriors then ignore it and destroy the rest of their army first, but must importantly kill their army standard bearer as soon as you can (any army standard in any army) when you beat them by 1 or 2 you dont want them getting a re roll.

The High Elf BSB is usually on a 2+/5++ with a Great Weapon, so he's not easy to take down. But I do agree, try to bog the HE down into a war of attrition, as they usually don't have the numbers to trade.


when facing teclis dont worry, magic resistance 3 and a 3+ save will help to reduce the damage until you can charge him, challange with your champion and bludgeon him to death with your basic warriors.

If your magic resistance does anything against Teclis, then they're using the wrong lore on him. You'll usually see something like Life, where he'll super buff his units, then Dwellers whatever he doesn't like, or Shadow, where he hexes your units to dirt, then Mindrazors the Spears and lets them wreck a powerful unit.


If all else fails then go with allies, fleshound are great against elves and a greater deamon will walk through anything.
Most importantly - have fun whilst playing
This most importantly, have fun!

Lord Solar Plexus
30-12-2012, 23:27
A pure Khorne army can work wonderfully


In your tin-foil hat land, sure, Alice. ;) Sorry for the vitriol but there was not a single point in your post that holds any water. Let's address them one by one:

- Two fighty Lords in 2k: A single naked Lord costs 210 points. He will cost above 260 points in order to be fighty, so two of them is simply impossible.

- No wizard. That's folly. Of course you can't defeat Teclis at his game and a Book mage will be brutal but no magic defence and no offense is simply not a good idea against an army which excels at close combat and whose units are at least on a par with ours AND which can field shooting in addition, and then not even try to throw a wrench into their machinations.

- MR doesn't do much unless we're talking about Metal. Those Mindrazored Spears certainly don't care. That's not magic defense, and will only save half the damage in some other universe.

- It's nice of you to quote stats in lieu of an argument. Everyone here knows the stats, so this doesn't add any relevant information. Your Khorne Warriors will not get all those attacks because 22,25 will be dead before they can even strike. I'm very much interested why you think quoting Ini and save has anything to do with this, or what relevance it might have in general.

- Marauder horse are not great against elves. They provide them with a viable target for those puny S3 arrows, dogs or not, and they will not get 10 attacks, flanks, front, rear or on top. Apart from the casualties they suffer from shooting, magic and ASF attacks, any survivors might not even all fit because everything but Spearelves won't be deeper than three models! And that's before we're talking about GE baiting those frenzied troops away from where they might potentially do something.

- Why would anyone be immune to psychology when the dogs die, and why would screening against fire be important? The important thing is to divert, that's about it.

- That single "unit of 30 marauder foot with lgt arm + sh or flail" can look whatever it likes. If it dies, its owner should care, he's down 200 points, and that's a solid win for the opposition. When it charges, you're looking at loads of dead Marauders. 41 attacks?!? Seriously? May I ask if you have ever played against Elves?

- Dogs do not block line of sight.

- Using "small cheap screening units like 50 skavenslaves in single line" is not possible, so that's the what, thirteenth point of useless advice? Using them with a millimetre between them is illegal, too. Jeeze Louise...

- Allies are illegal, too. Please don't start down that slippery slope. He's trying a mono-Khorne list, and you're seriously advising Allies...man, what did you smoke? You want his opponent to get a STank and some Ironguts?



Anything that isn't a chariot/ASf take in large number or suvivable- trolls and throgg are a good idea, especialy against White lions


Trolls are neither a chariot nor ASF nor survivable especially against WL. Trolls will simply go poof unless they flank - but that goes for nearly everything, and in my experience it's difficult to field nothing but flankers.

Tayrod
31-12-2012, 14:08
You could attempt to drown him in Marauders? Give them Great weapon and mark of tzeentch (no use giving them mark of Khorne, seeing as how they will lose frenzy in the first turn). And charge them into the white lions. You get roughly three marauders per lion, so if he has 30, you have 90. Assuming you can pass your steadfast test (keep a bsb nearby) in the first few rounds of combat you'l grind him down in no time.

(Of course you should feel free to give them MOK if you feel like staying fluffy) - Tecelis might still debuff them though, but you only really have to worry about their strenght staying up.

White_13oy
02-01-2013, 21:54
So I played two games against him again, they were both fun games with one win and one loss. I learned two things, as WoC, I hate mindrazor, so much for my superior stats and armor. And Phoenix Gaurd with MR is worse. I also have to avoid Karadian(sp?) Like the plague with my characters. Though Juggernaut Knights were amazing for me.