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Tulun
18-05-2006, 00:53
Hey.

About to start a Tomb King army, and I was curious... what tactics would you use against an All knight bret army? Thankfully, he is going with the theory of little to zero magic defence (don't take the scroll caddie, just buy another 5 knights).

What would you suggest as tactics? Overall, I'm not really looking foward to playing this, as I bet I'll end up having to be kind of a dick to beat it...

scatterlaser
18-05-2006, 02:03
Get some disposable units that can block or divert lances of knights. Fast cavalry are pretty good at this, and while they're not ideal TK light horsemen are cheap-ish enough that throwing away a couple of units to delay or divert a big lance is worth it. Park them in front of a lance, angle them so that if they overrun they'll end up in a bad position (ie in a forest or with their flank exposed) and let them crumble. If the Brets have almost no magic defense, your movement and summoning spells should have a field day. If you can avoid being charged by any really nasty units and do the charging yourself instead, you'd do pretty well.

Other units that might come in handy:

- Catapults will be forcing (at best) Ld8 Panic tests and ignore armour. Without much magic defense to stop them, you should be able to easily fire twice a turn. Any Pegasus Knights around will make a bee-line for them, though.
- Scorpions might give you an extra kill in close combat and will give you a 3d6 pursuit if you win.
- Carrion can be handy for running down fleeing units with a 20" charge. Keep them away from Pegasus Knights, though.

Alco Engineer
18-05-2006, 02:18
Scatter laser has good advice.

Also tomb guard with killing blow are awesome at negating the pesky 2+ saves of the brets.

consider chariots and angle them away so that if they get over run, the bret will have to run off at a strange angle. Once you get a flank charge they're stuffed.

Tulun
18-05-2006, 06:41
How would you suggest handling Pegasus Knights? I'll deifnately see a unit :)

Alco Engineer
18-05-2006, 06:57
Well the only time I faced them, I charged them with Dire wolves and they ran away! Straight off the board. You'll find causing fear really really helps against Brets (except against those Questing and Grail knights.....they're just pains in the butt)

I don't know but maybe get at them with a tomb scorpian? they hardcore and cause my VC's all sorts of trouble.

Tulun
18-05-2006, 07:29
Well, I am thinking in 2000+ to have at least 2 Tomb Scorpions (esspecially since my Chariots will be core)...

I wish I could rely on fear, but there are times when it'll save me and otehr times when it'll do nothing all game. Plus, several of his units are basically immune to it (Errant if they charge, Grail Knights are immune, Questing re-roll at ld 8).

Tulun
18-05-2006, 07:31
I think I'd have to use Heavy Horseman over light, btw. I should mention, thouhg he does use all Knights, he often does stray slightly and takes 1 unit of Skirmishing bowmen.. make light work of Light horseman ;)

MarcoPollo
18-05-2006, 17:31
don't fogett about raising the dead. You can really bog down his units with superbig units of skelletons and charge them from the rear. If you own the magic phase, as a TK player, you own the game. Move your units into good positions. You'll have him beat by the third turn.

A big block of archers should hurt the peg knights. just shoot them up, and then shoot them up again. Hitting on 5's no need to worry about skirmishing. Sure t4 will not help but you should be able to kill one a turn with about 20 shots.

Remember that they are worth 55 pts a piece and can suck up alot of points if they have more than 3.

Pravus
19-05-2006, 08:19
If he's fielding a RAF army you're probably buggered from the start. If its just your normal 0-1 selection, all you really need is a back stop to make him think twice about hopping over your battleline and hitting stuff in the rear - Tomb Scorpion or Carrion are good for this, although even a unit of fast cav will make him think twice. Pegasus knights should be no problem if they charge to the front. They don't do anywhere near as much damage on the charge as a standard lance so static CR should normally see them off.

With no magic defence you've got no excuse for not getting ALL the charges against him, its not like you're going to miscast ...

DeathlessDraich
22-05-2006, 17:31
1) Forget shooting. It will serve as a distraction only. If you have bowmen move and shoot always but keep in mind that they are sacrificials. You'll expect to be in combat by round 2 or 3.
2) Make sure all blocks of skellies are >25 and they will hold! - see below*
3) Use blocks of skellies to lure his centre into a charge and then magic charge him in the flanks if he takes the bait. If he doesn't, then you should be able to magically charge him with a block of tomb guard - they will win and probably cause the Brettonian unit to auto flee.

*4) Lance formation (without a character) - 8 S6 attacks and 8 S3 attacks will slay 7.3 skellies (4.4+2.7) and lose a further 5 or 6 from crumbling assuming you have a block size of more than 25, in the first turn of combat.
Summon them back in the next round and you will be facing only 7 S3 attacks. Your skellies will hold! Then flank charge if you can.

3) Keep your hierophant well hidden from the Pegasus who will be hunting him and the other liche priests. Except for your skull catapult all other units should be able to withstand a Pegasus attack.

4) A single scorpion can destroy a trebuchet and bowmen. If you have 2 scorpions use the them against the pegasus.

5) DO NOT accept challenges with you king or prince (unless you charge). Brettonian virtues are nasty in challenges.

6) Your magic enables you to choose the site of the battle - use that wisely and choose an area which is NOT open - blocked by scenery etc so that they have to funnel into that area of combat.

Alathir
24-05-2006, 14:21
Yeah, dueling Bretonnian lords are nasty if they go all out...

weapon that gives them WS 10... Armour that makes their str always 1 point higher than their opponents Toughness... Can re-roll hits and wounds in duels and no one can refuse their duel.

StormCrow
25-05-2006, 09:13
Tomb Guard, destroyer of eternities, ushabti, and scorpions....and big blocks of infantry. they should see off most of those knights. And take the icon of rakaph to really mess up their tactics

Welfur
29-05-2006, 10:17
Since I'am a Bret player some insights from this side ;-)
First, if he leaves his magic at home, you will definitedly have the better cards from the beginning.
But beware with your huge Skeleten or Guard Blocks, Brets hav a nasty combination which reduces your ranks and your more minis bonus to zero, which will be a nasty suprise if you rely on holding his cav with this one huge block.
I crumbled once a 21 regiment of VC knights on foot (don't know their real name in english, in german the are called the "Verfluchten") and killed the whole regiment in the first round. So beware of the unit with the AST!

Have in every unit which holds a char a champion, since it is really dumb to loose your high point chars in a duel, which you can't win.

Another pain in the ass for all bret opponents are the grailknights.
Often they use the Banner of Defense with them, so shooting at them will not be much effective, so if he uses this banner with them, ignore them and try to kill ranks in the Lances (especially his one or two Questknightunits)
For the GK lure them away with cheap untits or threaten them with flank attacks. A real good Bret player will not let that happen, but a real good bret player would always take anti magic with him against undeads ;-)

In my opinion you should easily take the win, if you get his Pegasi and grailknights under control.
It's up to you, hopefully you can give us your experience against the brets :-)

Welfur

DeathlessDraich
29-05-2006, 11:23
Banner of the Lady? - 100pts. - enemy gets no rank bonus
Ive played only a couple of Bretonian players.
Is that banner popular?


I crumbled once a 21 regiment of VC knights on foot (don't know their real name in english, in german the are called the "Verfluchten") and killed the whole regiment in the first round. So beware of the unit with the AST!
Welfur

VC KNIGHTS on foot??
Black knights? probably Grave guard.
Thats about 11 or 12 armour saves with no 6s. Lucky.
Tomb guard are slightly better though.

Welfur
29-05-2006, 12:59
VC KNIGHTS on foot??
Black knights? probably Grave guard.
Thats about 11 or 12 armour saves with no 6s. Lucky.
Tomb guard are slightly better though.

I got really lucky but killed with a Grailknight lance "only" 6 or so and it were grave guards, the rest yust vanished cause of the overwhelming result.
I had the Banner of the Lady and the Virtue which denies the bonus for outnumbering and the warbanner ;-)
But what really helped was the +4 overkill from the challange ;-)
I love to see my General dish out with ws 10 and a lot of attacks ;-)

For the Banner:
It's quite unpopular, cause the BSB may not take any magic items if he uses the Banner of the Lady.
He may nevertheless choose an virtue.
But it can be really worth it's points, but that depends completely on the opponent.
If you expect huge regiments its really worth it's 100 Points. Against opponents with smaller mostly elite units it is quite useless.
I only take it with me against undeads and skaven :-)
Especially against undead it's a real nasty thing for your opponent since his/her regiments mostly go "poof" ;-)
Or against Lizzards but only if i know my opponent and I'am quite sure he has this pesky saurus regiments or a huge templeguard.

But this tactics has a serious drawback, if your enemy knows it, you have more than 600 Points tied up and your opponent will make sure this lance won't get any important unit to charge.

Tulun
31-05-2006, 02:05
Actually, my friend uses a Magical BSB. Warbanner, the virtue that gives him +1... and a banner itself. +3 CR, and usually 2 ranks... 5 CR before his lance even lands blows...

Malorian
31-05-2006, 02:59
This is the list he has to beat:

Paladin on warhorse w/ GW, questing vow, insignia of the quest (116)

Paladin on warhorse w/ warbanner, virtue of duty (129)

8 KoTR full command (216) *general goes here*

8 KoTR musician (200) *ASB goes here*

8 KE w/ full command and errantry banner (201)

8 Questing knights w/ full command (251)

5 Pegasus knights (275)

16 skirmishing archers (112)

Total: 1500


To get to 2000 add:

5 Grail knights (190)

8 KoTR w/ full command and banner of chalons (226)

5 mounted yeomen with musician (83)

Total: 1999


This are this lists I always use at these points. No change no matter what I face, and I'm currently 13-3-3 (still kinda new)

Count William Grey
01-06-2006, 21:29
generally speaking, try to damage the knights or charge them so you do not have to suffer from the lance formation.

Tulun
03-06-2006, 06:39
Easier said than done... it's not easy to march block knights, and they move just as fast as my own calvary-types.

It's more of a finesse thing. Of course, I chose TK for the models ^_^

Goq Gar
04-06-2006, 16:37
Shiltrons. Lots and lots of spears. All grouped together, with some counter attack units behind. Personally, my Saurus are pretty well equipped to survive some nasty charges, including silver helms... (HAHAHAA! I CAUSE Ph33r by@tch! Silver helms = teh cow@rdzorz! He couldnt charge for 3 turns heheehe)
That or a very mobile shooting army. Such as wood elves. They cant touch you in those forests mate! Empire can do what none else can do, blow them to smithereens. Hell blasters do this exceptionally well, cannons right in front can wipe them out, and anything with a -1 armour piercing makes them very vulnerable indeed!

Other than that, just try to survive the charge from a unit of knights, then charge their flank with something! (See my saurus 1000 pt list in the list thread for an idea of how to do this very well) Nothings better than seeing knights dragged off their horses and beaten to death by hundreds of angry sword bearing militia! So either have enough counter attacks to stab them in the face no matter how much damage they do, or shoot them to death where they cant touch you. When they charge, strike their sides.

Tulun
10-06-2006, 19:29
Are spears on skeletons really worth it?