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Lordcypress
31-12-2012, 17:30
So I have a question regarding Yell and Bawl.

Lets say I have the following close combat situation occur. My Giant in attacking the front of 40 Empire Spearmen in Horde formation. He is in base to base contact with 4 Spearmen. Now I have a unit of lets say 3 trolls attack the flank of the Spearmen. The Empire attack first. Doing lets say 4 wounds. Now by iniative order the Giant goes and rolls Yell and Bawl. He wins combat by 2 automatically.

Now my question is. Do the Trolls and Spearmen to the side still get to do their attacks?

My gaming group has always played it that the Trolls and Spearmen don't get to attack as the combat is over because of Yell and Bawl. But after re-reading the rules for Yell and Bawl I'm not sure this is correct.

"Yell and Bawl": The Giant yells and bawls at the enemy. This is not a pleasant experience, as Giants are deafeningly loud and tend towards poor oral hygiene. Neither the Giant nor models in contact with him actually fight it they have not already done so this round. The Giant's side automatically wins combat by 2 points (if both sides have a Giant that Yell and Bawls, the combat is a draw).

After reading the rule I think the Trolls and Spearmen to the side still get their attacks as they are not in contact with the Giant. However after their attacks the Giants side still automatically wins by 2.

Any thoughts on this situation?

Lordcypress
31-12-2012, 17:34
I suppose using Empire Spearmen is poor example as their iniative would allow them to attack anyways but you get my point.

Bloodedsoul
31-12-2012, 19:37
I believe any models not touching the giant still fight, just no matter what the giant's side wins by 2

thesoundofmusica
31-12-2012, 20:38
Never gave it much thought, but the above suggestion seems appropriate.

JDV311
31-12-2012, 20:47
Let's pretend the spearman have higher iniative. All the spearmen get to attack first...even against the trolls. Then giant does his thing and bam combat is over. The trolls do not get to attack this round.

Lordcypress
31-12-2012, 21:22
But the Trolls are not in contact with the Giant. Should they not still get their attacks?

thesoundofmusica
31-12-2012, 21:34
@ JDV311
It doesnt say the combat is over. Nowhere does it say this in the Giant entry. It says nobody in base contact with the Giant can attack unless they already have. Trolls are not in base contact with the giant in the example given by OP.

Lord Inquisitor
31-12-2012, 22:00
Exactly. ONLY THE GIANT AND MODELS IN CONTACT cannot attack.

Weirdly this means that a unit in contact with the giant that is yet to attack can make supporting attacks against the giant. (Although I think that the writers don't even consider supporting attacks when writing this sort of rule. Other examples like the nightshroud are worded the same way. They need to really let us know in a FAQ if models making a supporting attack are considered to be in base contact with the model they're attacking or not for this sort of thing.)

ihavetoomuchminis
01-01-2013, 19:54
Exactly. ONLY THE GIANT AND MODELS IN CONTACT cannot attack.

Weirdly this means that a unit in contact with the giant that is yet to attack can make supporting attacks against the giant. (Although I think that the writers don't even consider supporting attacks when writing this sort of rule. Other examples like the nightshroud are worded the same way. They need to really let us know in a FAQ if models making a supporting attack are considered to be in base contact with the model they're attacking or not for this sort of thing.)

That's one of the reasons why i usually say that AB writers don't even know the rules of the game they are writing rules for....

thesoundofmusica
01-01-2013, 20:34
That's one of the reasons why i usually say that AB writers don't even know the rules of the game they are writing rules for....

To be fair I think the Giant rules are just copy pasted from several editions back. I could be wrong of course in this particular case. Regardless I agree with you.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-01-2013, 10:07
Unless they are capable of time travel, that's a pretty unfair critique. When the WoC book was written, they probably did not know about 8th edition rules.

Figment187
07-01-2013, 10:19
Aren't the supporting attackers considered to be in contact "as they move forward to the front ranks to attack"?

Ja9nge
07-01-2013, 11:28
Aren't the supporting attackers considered to be in contact "as they move forward to the front ranks to attack"?

In my opinion "base contact" is exactly what it says. Extending the meaning would create way to much confusion.

theunwantedbeing
07-01-2013, 12:10
In my opinion "base contact" is exactly what it says. Extending the meaning would create way to much confusion.

The issue here is that the Yell & bawl rules have never used the words in base contact, merely just in contact.
Which now leads to confusion.
Even the 8th edition Orc & Goblin book has managed to let this unhelpful wording slip by.

We'll have to wait for a GW errata I suppose.

In contact could mean one of two things.
-base contact (the obvious original meaning as supporting attacks never existed back when the rules were first written)
-merely in contact somehow, which would extend to any model able to make a supporting attack

Base contact is merely one thing.
-base contact.

Ja9nge
07-01-2013, 12:56
In contact could mean one of two things.
-base contact (the obvious original meaning as supporting attacks never existed back when the rules were first written)
-merely in contact somehow, which would extend to any model able to make a supporting attack

-base contact.

If models making supporting attacks are considered to be in "contact", then I assume this also apply to bonus attack from spears and extra supporting attacks from hordes? IMHO that seems odd because this will in the rare cases penalize hordes and spears by removing attacks from the flank. And if nightshroud is worded the same way, as mentioned by lord inquisitor, Would this spell cause danderous terrain on the extra attacking ranks?

I agree that the wording are confusing.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-01-2013, 13:25
That sounds like a very farfetched and very...liberal distinction and only opens a can of worms. In fact I would go so far and say it is a redefinition of the word "contact" to encompass models not in contact. Not to sound rude but "in contact" could also mean "in contact with the Giant's nose". It could even mean "blue tree" or, as pointed out, the opposite.

Everyone not in b2b is not contacting the Giant in any way or form, not even "merely somehow". Those models might be allowed to attack or to die but that's it.

quietus1986
07-01-2013, 19:23
I most tournaments if you roll that no more attacks of that unit against the giant no seport no spears. cose u need to be in contact in a way to attac some one in close combat.

belgarath97
07-01-2013, 20:26
Exactly. ONLY THE GIANT AND MODELS IN CONTACT cannot attack.

Weirdly this means that a unit in contact with the giant that is yet to attack can make supporting attacks against the giant. (Although I think that the writers don't even consider supporting attacks when writing this sort of rule. Other examples like the nightshroud are worded the same way. They need to really let us know in a FAQ if models making a supporting attack are considered to be in base contact with the model they're attacking or not for this sort of thing.)

Don't supporting attacks say they can be made against enemy models that the model in front of the supporting model could attack? In said example, the models in front can't attack anything, thus the supporters can't. At least that's my take.

But according to the original question, the spearmen and trolls would attack.

PS: Just re-read the supporting attacks section. I hold that my above was their intent, but the wording simply says that models "can make a supporting attack if it is directly behind a friendly model that is itself in base contact with an enemy model." Emphasis mine. Given that by strict RAW then models would be able to make supporting attacks. It never says that the friendly model must itself be able to attack.

Lord Solar Plexus
08-01-2013, 13:58
The German text for Yell and Bawl in the WoC book says "base contact", just for completeness' sake.


u need to be in contact in a way to attac some one in close combat.

No, you do not. In fact, you defeat your own argument: If contact was the only prerequisite, supporting attacks would never work.