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RunepriestRidcully
05-01-2013, 18:45
I've been reading through some of the books for Dark heresy, and I just thought, how much knowledge does the average imperial governor and /or Arbites presence know of the traitor legions? Would it be possible for example, for a thousand sons warship to arrive at the world, and for the commanding sorcerer take the planets psykers waiting for the blackships by claiming to be acting on behest of the Inquisition? Or just any legion/warband arriving and demanding materials/supply from imperial worlds "in the name of the god emperor".?

Griefbringer
05-01-2013, 19:09
Would it be possible for example, for a thousand sons warship to arrive at the world, and for the commanding sorcerer take the planets psykers waiting for the blackships by claiming to be acting on behest of the Inquisition?

I don't think that Inquisition would be happy with any Astartes (loyalists or traitors) trying to act as substitute for the blackship captains - never mind that your average Astartes battlebarge would not likely have suitable facilities for their transportation.

baphomael
05-01-2013, 19:24
arbites and or governors would probably know very little about the traitor legions. the inquisition tends to keep a lid on knowledge relating to chaos.

however they'll probably be dimly aware, perhaps through ministorum sermons, of tales about the emperors favoured son turning traitor and taking a third of the Imperial host with him. as for specifics about the Traitor Legions are possibly beyond them (unless, perhaps, the governor has had some experience in higher level leadership through the Munitorum prior to taking on governorship).

a cannie sorcerer might be able to blag it, but a governor or arbite would probably think something's up - they'll know all about the League of Black Ships, so the sorcerer would have to disguise things pretty elaborately. claiming Inquisittrial authority may not be enough - the Inquisition doesn't run the League of Black Ships.

Scalebug
05-01-2013, 19:49
Stopping the governor from handing over psykers and/or materiel to any unknown Space Marine that shows up is in the job description of the Arbites, knowing about chaos traitors or not...

The first is a big no-no in any case, and the second might fly, under supervision, and with the governor aware that he will not be allowed to claim it as a deductible expense in the next Imperial tithe. If he wants to give away stuff to the Space Marine, that will have to be out of his own pocket, not the Emperors...

It is the Adeptus Astra Telepathica your sorcerer needs to impersonate to claim he is coming with a Black Ship. And as for the average Astartes vessel not being able to contain the psykers, that will simply be another thing you need to solve when planning a heist like this.

baphomael
05-01-2013, 20:01
to be fair all in all, I'd imagine it'd probably just be easier to take them by force in a raid or through magic warp juju

Griefbringer
05-01-2013, 20:32
Alpha Legion could try the disguise approach though, just for the sake of challenge.

baphomael
05-01-2013, 20:45
Alpha Legion could try the disguise approach though, just for the sake of challenge.

alphas would be able to pull it off, they'd probably have been seeding the world with agents for years

RunepriestRidcully
05-01-2013, 20:59
I thought the job of the arbites was to enforce imperial law? Never heard of them standing up against marines (outside of resistance to chaos raids/invasion) but I would have thought loyalist marines, whilst not having the authority of an inquisitor, would have enough to be able to take/asl for resources they need from an imperial world.

KingDeath
05-01-2013, 21:47
I thought the job of the arbites was to enforce imperial law? Never heard of them standing up against marines (outside of resistance to chaos raids/invasion) but I would have thought loyalist marines, whilst not having the authority of an inquisitor, would have enough to be able to take/asl for resources they need from an imperial world.

Unless specific treaties were made, a marine chapter has no authority whatsoever over any other imperial organisation. A planetary commander is just as much a peer of the Imperium as any Chaptermaster (although the chaptermasters word has probably quite a bit more weight ).
Regarding the Arbites question, well, i think it depends on the rank of the Arbitrator. A high ranking Marshal or Judge will probably know alot more about chaos and it's mortal servants than the rank and file of his organisation.

nedius
05-01-2013, 23:19
I'd imagine the Governors would know, or have access to information, about which chapters were traitors. They would know of the heresy, and be informed of local traitor forces (as they would be responsible for reporting any encounters with them).

However, how much they'd be aware of chaos, I'm not sure. Part of me thinks that at the governor level they'd be briefed about chaos, in order to root out heresy on their own planets. but part of me imagines they'd be kept in the dark, and not informed about chaos at all unless absolutely necessary.

baphomael
06-01-2013, 00:37
I'd imagine the Governors would know, or have access to information, about which chapters were traitors. They would know of the heresy, and be informed of local traitor forces (as they would be responsible for reporting any encounters with them).

However, how much they'd be aware of chaos, I'm not sure. Part of me thinks that at the governor level they'd be briefed about chaos, in order to root out heresy on their own planets. but part of me imagines they'd be kept in the dark, and not informed about chaos at all unless absolutely necessary.

yet the Ordo malleus brutally suppresses knowledge of chaos to the point of purging entire loyal regiments and mind wiping marines for coming into contact with it.

it'd be more the case that they may be aware of traitors and heretical cult threats... but that they worship the Ruinous Powers of the warp and cavort with actual, real, indestructible daemons made from nightmares is something very few know details about.

it's so paranoid few the grey knights silence anyone who has heard of them even in passing... just in case that knowledge leads to dark places.

orz192
06-01-2013, 01:17
In "Chapter War" the fourth book in the Soul Drinker's series, the chapter impersonates imperial marines when they come to the aid of a planet under attack by Orks.
The planetary Governor and the Imperial Guard Penal legion stationed there have no knowledge of traitor astartes.

bittick
06-01-2013, 03:56
The problem is, GW has treated the subject inconsistently. Sometimes the Inquisition mind-wipes Space Marines and slaughters planetary populations when a squad of Chaos Marines land on the planet for 15 minutes. Sometimes the Inquisition doesn't do anything at all. It is up to you to decide what is reasonable in your own interpretation of the background.

"So, hi everyone, I'm Bob the Chaos Marine. I just stopped by this planet because we're out of toilet paper on the ship, but since I'm here, why not look at this nice pamphlet about how Slaanesh can be your personal savior? After you die you get to go to Kingdom Come, if you know what I mean. So you guys are kind of forced to revolt against the Imperium anyway now, because the Inquisition is gonna show up in like 15 minutes and kill every last one of you to protect your souls. Anyway I'm just gonna leave this pamphlet here and if you want to take a look at it you can."

I think it is reasonable that your average person knows about "sorcery" and "dark magic", but doesn't understand anything about Chaos as an underlying concept. There's historical knowledge that Horus the Traitor attacked the Emperor, but he's probably presented more like an evil Agamemnon, some ancient historical guy rather than as a guy who was actually demonically empowered. There are enough current renegade Space Marine groups out there, like the Red Corsairs, that anyone of relatively high station should know that sometimes bad guy marines attack.

When I was a kid, my mom thought Dungeons and Dragons was satanic (hey it was the early 80s). She knew it had black magic in it, but that was about as specific as her knowledge of the subject got. She couldn't have told you what level of spell Cone of Cold was, or who the Red Wizards of Thay were. She still can't, actually. That is about as much knowledge as the average imperial citizen has. They know just enough to recognize something that looks like magic, and say "bad!" Imperial governors probably know that a ship showing up with the markings of the World Eaters are hostile raiding forces, and might know that they take their name from ancient traitors. That's probably about it.

In my view the Inquisition doesn't show up and start killing people until the sky begins raining blood, the rocks of the earth grow toothy maws and sing praises unto Khorne, zombies begin rising out of the ground, people begin morphing into giant mutant plague flies, and ribbons of screaming fire fly through the air leaving empty blackness behind them. Then it's probably time to purge some populations.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-01-2013, 04:47
From the books, Imperial citizenry know about Chaos the way they know about Space Marines- myths, folklore, dimly remembered history. Horus' name is a curse word in the manner of "Jesus wept," but the actual history (real knowledge, I suppose) is available in more coherency and volume as you go up in rank (or find it by accident and pray to the Emperor or your new Gods no one finds out. The Heresy is like the Torah, or Greek myth- it's got nuggets and chunks of history embedded in creamy, delicious legend.

The tithe is a big no-no to meddle with. During appointed collection times, security would be inane and every detail cross-referenced with every other by autosavants and cogitators. The best time to raid would be as close to collection before the vigilance starts damping up, and you'd want to seed the planet with cults, insurrection, internal strife, criminals, extremists, etc. for decades before your raid, letting a couple tithes go unmolested. Also, if you're looking for matériel, try to find ways to boost the planet's productivity to just below the next tax bracket, so to speak- working at cross purposes to riddle the planet with internal decay while expending some resources to protect it from the outside.

As far as demanding stuff goes, it's going to be like traveling pilgrims. They will probably ask very politely, but it's truly awful form to refuse unless you're destitute. Play up your role as Angels of Death, the (False) Emperor's Chosen (of the Dark Gods). Speak softly and carry the big ol' stick of the Emperor's *snicker* *snort* Wrath. If you're going to impersonate a loyalist dog, do it right, forcefully, and with as much potential profit as possible.

BooTMGSG
06-01-2013, 08:04
Going from the cain novels.
Local law enforcement would only know what they need to know, so unless they had encountered a traitor Arstartess threat, they would know little more than your average joe.
Same goes for the Governor.

There is a good chance that the local Arbite knows. They are trained to deal the threat within, they have a higher level of education (if slightly brainwashed) and are generally the person on the planet who needs to know. He can then inform the governor if a problem arises, then again he could give no reason for his action beyond I AM THE LAW!

MajorWesJanson
06-01-2013, 08:57
The average Person who does know about the Heresy knows of it as something like Allegory, like the fall of Lucifer in the bible. It's part of the religion, but it is myth and lessons. Higher up, you have people who know that there are ruinous powers, but nothing about them in specific, that Horus was real and some Space Marines were corrupted, but again, no real details.