PDA

View Full Version : Power WEAPONS and magnets.



fred953d
06-01-2013, 19:04
So I'm having a Crimson Fist army, and as their fists are painted red I've always gone with Power Fists for sarges and so on. Now though I'm starting to think if a power wep would be more worth it, and there the Sword vs. Axe thing begin. So as a Tau player i took to my best friend magnets, to being able to magnetize between PW/PF. Then I started thinking: The weapon profile depends on what the model is having. In the army list you would just write something like "sarge with Power Weapon", as the latest FAQ says to change Power Swords to Power Weapons. So could I show up, look at the opponents army, if it's a army with where I would want the model in case to go tying up TEQs a round, give him an Axe, if not, stick him with a Sword.
Is this legal, and would you have a problem playing against this?
Also I'm not sure is this should go here or in the Rules subforum.

Freakiq
06-01-2013, 19:17
You get a choice between different Power Weapons, you can't just choose 'Power Weapon'.
What you're trying to do is answering 'Yes' to a multiple choice question.

Even if it were legal it would be very unsportsmanlike conduct.

solkan
06-01-2013, 20:03
The OP forgot to take the question to its logical conclusion: You modeled the power weapons using magnets, so swap the power weapons during the game.

I hope it's not necessary to explain why that extended version is a bad idea. "I modeled them with magnets so I can change them right before the game" is a bad idea for the same reason.

hobojebus
06-01-2013, 20:04
Isnt that basically just list tailoring though, i agree it seems unsportsmanlike.

fred953d
06-01-2013, 20:25
I think to that it is against the sprit of the game, but I am more exploring the possibility than being serious about it, though it could be handy at some times.

Lord Inquisitor
06-01-2013, 20:40
I think GW phrased the rule badly. I think the intent is very much that you have a specific model in mind when you make your list - so in effect you should have which kind of power weapon each model had on the army list.

However I don't see any issue with magnetization itself. After all I could have three identical squad leaders in my box, one with power axe, one with sword and one with maul and then pull out the advantageous one at deployment.

Magnetizing seems sensible, you can then choose when writing your list freely among the options. Picking the right option is as mentioned just list tailoring in a new form, which is okay if both players are doing it but poor form to say the least otherwise. Certainly switching power weapons out between (or during!) games at a tournament would be a big no-no.

ehlijen
06-01-2013, 20:59
I firmly believe that unless stated otherwise, army list decisions are to be made before the list is declared finished and the table set up phase starts.
"Having selected your armies, it's time to determine which Eternal War mission you will be playing."p118

And yes, selecting an army is done by models not points or concepts of models. "By adding together all the points values of the models you selected, you can find out the points value of your army." p108

So yes, if you do it right you could get away with picking a power weapon only after deployment has begun without anyone either noticing or being able to prove intent, but I really don't think it should be done unless there is a player agreement to do it anyway.

Latro_
06-01-2013, 21:00
There is nothing wrong with it from a rules perspective you write 'power weapon' on your army list. The rules say if you have power weapon on your army list you look at the model.

If it's 'douchy' or not within the spirit of the game is a debate that everyone will have an opinion on.

Personally I cant see it making that much of a difference on the whole to games you play and i'd actually welcome the variety. Plus Kudos for taking the time to model and paint the options it hits at a level of good hobbyship (not sure that is a word).

So yes you can do it, It may or may not loose you friends though.

Freakiq
06-01-2013, 21:17
There is nothing wrong with it from a rules perspective you write 'power weapon' on your army list. The rules say if you have power weapon on your army list you look at the model.

If it's 'douchy' or not within the spirit of the game is a debate that everyone will have an opinion on.

Personally I cant see it making that much of a difference on the whole to games you play and i'd actually welcome the variety. Plus Kudos for taking the time to model and paint the options it hits at a level of good hobbyship (not sure that is a word).

So yes you can do it, It may or may not loose you friends though.

But you can't just take a Power Weapon nowadays, you have to choose what kind of Power Weapon your model will have.

If I play Chaos Marines and have a character that may take items from the 'Items from the Melee Weapons wargear list' I can't just write "items from the Melee Weapons wargear list" in my army list and pick which ones at the start of a game.

You pick the wargear when you write the the list, not after.

Spiney Norman
06-01-2013, 21:31
But you can't just take a Power Weapon nowadays, you have to choose what kind of Power Weapon your model will have.

If I play Chaos Marines and have a character that may take items from the 'Items from the Melee Weapons wargear list' I can't just write "items from the Melee Weapons wargear list" in my army list and pick which ones at the start of a game.

You pick the wargear when you write the the list, not after.

Incorrect actually, I have yet to read an army list entry for which "power axe", "power sword" or "power maul" are optional pieces of wargear (CSM might, I haven't read it yet). In most cases (for example, my dark Eldar archon) You buy them the optional "power weapon" as listed in the unit entry and the type of power weapon is then determined by the weapon the model is actually carrying, so by modifying the weapon your model is carrying, or by having several different models each with different power weapon types, you could theoretically alter the type of power weapon the model is armed with right up until the point where you deploy him.

I would definitely call shenanigans on swapping magnetised arms after you had deployed him though.

The Red Pilgrim
06-01-2013, 21:34
Incorrect actually, I have yet to read an army list entry for which "power axe", "power sword" or "power maul" are optional pieces of wargear. You buy them the optional "power weapon" as listed in the unit entry and the type of power weapon is determined by what the model is actually carrying, so by modifying the weapon your model is carrying, or by having several different models each with different power weapon types you could theoretically alter the type of power weapon the model is armed with right up until the point where you deploy him.

This.


I would definitely call shenanigans on swapping magnetised arms after you had deployed him though.

As would I. Before deployment, however? Then no, I wouldn't mind.

It's no more 'unsportsmanlike' in my mind than running a cheesy flier-spam list. ;)

Lord Zarkov
06-01-2013, 21:40
Incorrect actually, I have yet to read an army list entry for which "power axe", "power sword" or "power maul" are optional pieces of wargear. You buy them the optional "power weapon" as listed in the unit entry and the type of power weapon is determined by what the model is actually carrying, so by modifying the weapon your model is carrying, or by having several different models each with different power weapon types you could theoretically alter the type of power weapon the model is armed with right up until the point where you deploy him.

I would definitely call shenanigans on swapping magnetised arms after you had deployed him though.
There are many fixed ones on special characters and Chaplains/Dark Apostles. According to the GW website Deathwing Terminator Sergeants also have to have a sword.

Space Wolves have to choose either a Frost Blade or Frost Axe

BA Sanguinary Guard have to choose between Axes and Swords in their FAQ

HH Betrayal has Apothcaries that have an optional Power Sword (and only power sword), plus Techmarines that have to have an Axe; and it restricts models with 'power weapon' in the entry to having sword, axe or maul.

Freakiq
06-01-2013, 21:41
Incorrect actually, I have yet to read an army list entry for which "power axe", "power sword" or "power maul" are optional pieces of wargear (CSM might, I haven't read it yet). In most cases (for example, my dark Eldar archon) You buy them the optional "power weapon" as listed in the unit entry and the type of power weapon is then determined by the weapon the model is actually carrying, so by modifying the weapon your model is carrying, or by having several different models each with different power weapon types, you could theoretically alter the type of power weapon the model is armed with right up until the point where you deploy him.


The entry for my Chaos Lord says he can take "items from the Melee Weapons wargear list".

By the same logic I can just write that on my list and chose the weapons during deployment.

A character with access to a power weapon can choose from the wargear list of power weapons, he can't just write the name of the list and choose his weapon later.

theunwantedbeing
06-01-2013, 21:46
It's not different to swapping out models with different weapons at the start of the game.

Ideally GW will errata it to say you have to state what type of power/force/whatever item is in the list.
Much like how in fantasy you have to do the same thing with a mage and their magic lore.

Swapping during the game however.....well, don't expect the other guy to keep playing as soon as you try it.

Although in a tournament? Well worth giving it a go if you ask me.
You can pull all sorts of cheating nonsense during a tournament provided you get a dim witted official (of which there are plenty) who will either let it fly or make you roll for it (ie. 50/50 shot at being allowed it!).

Alternate option
Give the guy a power penknife
Provided it has sword, maul and hammer attachments he can freely switch in game :P

Spiney Norman
06-01-2013, 22:06
The entry for my Chaos Lord says he can take "items from the Melee Weapons wargear list".

By the same logic I can just write that on my list and chose the weapons during deployment.

A character with access to a power weapon can choose from the wargear list of power weapons, he can't just write the name of the list and choose his weapon later.

A slightly different situation, my archons entry does not say "can take items from the power weapon wargear list", there is no reference to another "list" which must be chosen from (as there is for your chaos character) and neither is there an errata entry requiring me to. Furthermore the rule written in the brb states that the type of power weapon is determined soley by the appearance of the weapon the model is holding, in effect you choose your power weapon type when you choose your model, not when you write your army list. Magnetisation is just a way of delaying that choice.

Just out of interest, does the "Melee weapons wargear list" in the CSM codex contain power mauls, axes and swords as separate entries or is it just a single power weapon entry?

Freakiq
06-01-2013, 22:09
A slightly different situation, my archons entry does not say "can take items from the power weapon wargear list", there is no reference to another "list" which must be chosen from (as there is for your chaos character) and neither is there an errata entry requiring me to. Furthermore the rule written in the brb states that the type of power weapon is determined soley by the appearance of the weapon the model is holding, in effect you choose your power weapon type when you choose your model, not when you write your army list. Magnetisation is just a way of delaying that choice.

By magnetizing you are changing the model.
It would be just as legal to switch to a different sergeant.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that this is a loophole.
I'd just walk away if I saw someone trying to pull this.

Edit: besides, there's no 'choose model'-phase, you choose your models when writing the army list.

Spiney Norman
06-01-2013, 22:11
By magnetizing you are changing the model.
It would be just as legal to switch to a different sergeant.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that this is a loophole.
I'd just walk away if I saw someone trying to pull this.

Which is perfectly legal at any point before deployment as long as his optional wargear, as stated on his army list entry, remains the same, which in this case it does. Unless you are suggesting that we should annotate our army lists with photographs of all our models so we can prove that we are fielding the exact same models that we decided upon when we were writing the list. And if this be the case we are getting into such a bizarre realm of nasty-over-suspicious-opponentism that whether I had magnetised arms or not I would definitely walk from that game.

Generally speaking I'm relaxed enough to let anything that is not overtly illegal slide, its not like magnetised arms are going to make that much difference to the game.

And, I'm sorry to point this out, but if your opponents army list simply said "power weapon" under his wargear options (which as per the marine sergeant army list entry would be perfectly legal, in fact I'd argue it was more proper than writing "power axe" which does not appear in the list of wargear items available to the sergeant) you would never know whether someone was trying to "pull this" or not...

Freakiq
06-01-2013, 22:19
Sent a mail to GW, will probably have an official answer in a day or two.

Until then I'll keep specifying what kind of power weapon I'm using as I despise list tailoring.

dangerboyjim
06-01-2013, 23:15
Hmmm, don't see the problem here.

If both lists (yours and your opponents) are declared at the same time, then you have no chance to change it before deployment. If your list just says 'power weapon', it's an illegal list isn't it? There's no 'power weapon' in the game anymore, it's a power sword, power axe etc.

If you want to model you collection with magnets, go ahead.

Wolfyjoe
06-01-2013, 23:31
Magnetized Power Weapons are a great idea. My Space Wolves models are limited and I've always struggled to determine the best option overall but if I know I'm playing a game against DW I'd toss on the Axe before going down to the FLGS. Not during deployment!

To answer the OP if we got together and you looked over my army THEN decided what power weapons you were taking I'd be packed up and gone before you decided.

Modelling=ok
During or just before deployment= not ok

xxRavenxx
07-01-2013, 09:12
Which is perfectly legal at any point before deployment as long as his optional wargear, as stated on his army list entry, remains the same, which in this case it does. Unless you are suggesting that we should annotate our army lists with photographs of all our models so we can prove that we are fielding the exact same models that we decided upon when we were writing the list.

The point being raised, which you seem to miss, is that deliberately not writing down which upgrade the model has, so you can tailor last minute, is no different to leaving other entries blank so that you can tailor.

If I wrote down "150pt marine tank" and then checked if I needed a predator or a vindicator before the game, you'd be annoyed.

Its not about making sure someone uses an exact model, its about using an exact list.

For a sillyer example, whats to stop me writing: "1000 pts of 40k models" for my army list, and just picking what I want once my opponent has set up?

The entire point of pre-written lists is so people don't tailor. GW didn't just sneak in a special rule for smart people who spot it to let them do some tailoring, as a reward for taking imperial armies and chaos...

Latro_
07-01-2013, 09:16
The entry for my Chaos Lord says he can take "items from the Melee Weapons wargear list".

By the same logic I can just write that on my list and chose the weapons during deployment.

A character with access to a power weapon can choose from the wargear list of power weapons, he can't just write the name of the list and choose his weapon later.


The options on that list are:
Chainaxe
Lightning claw
'Power weapon'
Power fist

So the fact it is part of a sublist does nothing to detract from the fact you put 'Power weapon' on your army list. Then in combat you consult the rule book for what a power weapon does, the rule book says look at the model to determine what 'type' of power weapon it is (axe, sword mace etc)...

So there really is nothing legally wrong within the rules by doing this before a game.

As i said the benefit offered by the tactic is gonna be so small is barely worth getting upset about.



The point being raised, which you seem to miss, is that deliberately not writing down which upgrade the model has, so you can tailor last minute, is no different to leaving other entries blank so that you can tailor.

If I wrote down "150pt marine tank" and then checked if I needed a predator or a vindicator before the game, you'd be annoyed.

Its not about making sure someone uses an exact model, its about using an exact list.

For a sillyer example, whats to stop me writing: "1000 pts of 40k models" for my army list, and just picking what I want once my opponent has set up?

The entire point of pre-written lists is so people don't tailor. GW didn't just sneak in a special rule for smart people who spot it to let them do some tailoring, as a reward for taking imperial armies and chaos...

Thats really not even the same. Of course you can put
'Chaos Predator - xxxpts'

on you army list and nothing else for that entry. That means you have an autocannon, searchlight and smoke launchers and nothing else. In the same way you could just put:
'Chaos lord - xxxpts'

In this case you would only have:
Bolt pistol, CCW, Frag, Krak

If you purchase options from the unit entry or the wargear list only then should you really obliged to put them on there. e.g.
Chaos lord - xxxpts
Power weapon (replaces CCW).

Most people just put everything in there for their own and opponents sanity + curtosy.

So your extreme example is not the same thing as its at a different level. We can debate this to the cows come home, the simple fact is for most amries you buy a 'power weapon' and the rule book specifically says to look at the model to determine what type of power weapon it is... You do not buy a predator a pair of sponson 'machine guns' and need to consult the model to determine from the rule book what rules to use.

kieranhoare
07-01-2013, 09:17
i want to magnatise my next box of either lych guard or preatorians, not so i can tailor my list to counter things, but to save money, living in austalia and trying to collect is pretty difficult if you are a year 12 student focus on school and dont have a job, with that said, i only have friendly games, so it doesnt matter really, its like magnatising landraider redeemers.crusaders, in australia, they're $110 each

ehlijen
07-01-2013, 09:47
Magnetising models so you can pick weapons for them as you write your list is fine, and not under contention by anyone here.

However, as the rules quite clearly talk about picking models and then calculating their points to make an army list, the intention is clearly that the nature and gear of a model is chosen at that stage. Changing it after that is list tailoring. That can be fine if all players agree to it beforehand, but it is not the expected standard of the game as per the rules.

Latro_
07-01-2013, 09:58
I guess thats where i'll differ on it. You have changed absolutely nothing on your army list by doing this. In essence then by merely writing 'power weapon' you are list tailoring? even though that is the correct thing to write as that is what is in the codex.

You are in fact buying an intentionally ambiguous piece of wargear from the codex... They have developed the core rules to meld with that in mind...

I'm not saying i agree with it either way but from a straight rules point i'll say it again:
You buy a 'power weapon'
The rules say look at the model to determine what type of power weapon it is.

Thats it, There is no possible way by changing a model before the game that this effects the army list at all. You 'could' of rolled up with a power sword lord, you 'could' of rolled up with a power axe lord.

Unless you physically see them change the model you would be none the wiser... So its not a rules thing its a spirit of the game are you a douche thing.

Gaargod
07-01-2013, 10:09
Alternate option
Give the guy a power penknife
Provided it has sword, maul and hammer attachments he can freely switch in game :P

Sigged. Just lol.


The entry for my Chaos Lord says he can take "items from the Melee Weapons wargear list".

By the same logic I can just write that on my list and chose the weapons during deployment.

A character with access to a power weapon can choose from the wargear list of power weapons, he can't just write the name of the list and choose his weapon later.

No, no you really can't. I'm looking at the Chaos Wargear list page right now - Melee Weapons is very specific: Model may replace... [blah blah blah] with one of the following: ...[blah blah blah] -Power Weapon.

In other words, you have to pick which Weapon you are taking when writing the list. Apart from anything else, they're different prices, so you couldn't just choose.

However, as others have pointed out, Power Weapons are not like that. They're literally WYSIWYG-based rules - if it's recorded as a power weapon, you have to look at the actual model to work out what it does.



Edit: For the sake of argument, I personally feel that changing the model during a game would be exceptionally uncool, if not downright cheating. Changing a model between tournament games is something I think I'd frown on, principally because the whole point of multiple-game tournaments are to force you to build all-comers lists, but it's not actually cheating.

Beppo1234
07-01-2013, 10:46
don't be a rules lawyer. To be honest, both players just need to decide on when the 'adjustment' cut off is. After a given point, there is not more tuning of the army list.

Freakiq
07-01-2013, 11:14
The whole point of writing down an army list is to finalize what you will be bringing to the table.

If you're going to switch wargear between games we might just play without an army list.


What's with Warseer and loophole abusing lately?
Wasn't the Lychguard Power Axe abuse embarrassing enough?

Mauler
07-01-2013, 11:22
Freakiq for President!

Changing wargear in-game is a massive bent no-no. Changing magnetised weapons out before deployment, IMO, depends on the environment. If you've already submitted a list which specifies a particular weapon (as well it should, IMO) then you're set with that list. If you've just got a list that says "power weapon" with it being an oversight that you've not updated for 6th's new rules and/or it's a friendly game then fair enough, if you're playing an official game in any capacity then I'd expect the weapon(s) in question to be clarified after the list is submitted before any models are unpacked.

It's just an excuse to use an old rule from the previous ruleset to wrangle a minor bit of list-tailoring for a small unfair advantage. In practice as already said, it may not matter enough to be upset about, but it's the priciple.

Latro_
07-01-2013, 11:49
I just cant get my head around the rules issue here:

You put POWER WEAPON on your army list, there is no 'you'v not adjusted for 6th' that is the wargear item you buy! That is the title of it in the codex. Unless a tourney says 'declare what type of power weapon on your list' you are in no way breaking any rules by switching it up between a game.

That army exists in your case with no indication to the world what 'type' of power weapon that is. No one would ever know if you had a little grot in your case who switched the arm before game and it would have no impact on your list whatsoever, you are under no obligation like you might be with say a combi weapon to write down what that power weapon is.

I'd never do it personally but rules wise unless a tourney puts it in a rules pack I cannot see anything against doing it... thats my main point, just the RAWness of it.

Its soley a debate in how much of a 'that guy' you are etc... Which everyone will have a view on and blah blah blah internet who cares etc

Freakiq
07-01-2013, 12:00
I just cant get my head around the rules issue here:

You put POWER WEAPON on your army list, there is no 'you'v not adjusted for 6th' that is the wargear item you buy! That is the title of it in the codex. Unless a tourney says 'declare what type of power weapon on your list' you are in no way breaking any rules by switching it up between a game.

That army exists in your case with no indication to the world what 'type' of power weapon that is. No one would ever know if you had a little grot in your case who switched the arm before game and it would have no impact on your list whatsoever, you are under no obligation like you might be with say a combi weapon to write down what that power weapon is.

I'd never do it personally but rules wise unless a tourney puts it in a rules pack I cannot see anything against doing it... thats my main point, just the RAWness of it.

Its soley a debate in how much of a 'that guy' you are etc... Which everyone will have a view on and blah blah blah internet who cares etc


For me it comes down to:


As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely just a result of wishful thinking.

In this edition what kind of power weapon you take makes a difference, so you should specify which one you're using.

If I see my opponent switching power weapons after seeing that I'm bringing Terminators I'll just switch to my Necrons and deploy them instead.

Latro_
07-01-2013, 12:13
oh yea totally, i'v met most of the gw designers a few times they would of had this idea:

'power weapons are a bit boring, in 2ed they were so much cooler, how can we add in coolness and background but make it work with old codex books' thats where it would of stopped.

GW don't even have it on their radar that they'd even consider someone would even have this idea! it does not not make it any less RAW though... so again back to same old debate.

ehlijen
07-01-2013, 12:15
The way GW describes writing an army list, whether you write down 'power sword' or 'power weapon' makes no difference: you pick a model, check how much it costs in points and then write down its details in the army list (p108 as I noted earlier).

That means you have already decided at that point which model you wish to use and therefore what power weapon it has. Changing or swapping the model out after the list is finalised, is changing the army after the list is finalised, even if technically the words in the list didn't change.

You may write your army list in a different process, you you are still changing 'the army' if you change its models. The list is merely a content listing, the army itself is the models. And you're supposed to decide the army to bring before you roll for mission and deployment.

You're free to houserule this process (in fact, the BRB happily suggests changing the way you pick armies to suit your group's desires, also p108 'The Army List'), but you need to be sure everyone involved is aware and happy with it before you do it, or you'll likely walk into an argument.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-01-2013, 13:32
The entire point of pre-written lists is so people don't tailor. GW didn't just sneak in a special rule for smart people who spot it to let them do some tailoring, as a reward for taking imperial armies and chaos...

Actually I'd say that the point of a pre-written list is so you can get to the game bit quicker, rather than wait around for someone to write that list. The tailoring aspect I couldn't care less about. I'll be bringing the same list I'd always bring so it have no impact on what I'll be doing. (And I'd argue that it seems GW write at least some of there rules as if your suppose to know who/what you are playing against. The 'all-comers' tyranny is created by players, not GW).
And since swapping the weapons or even the models around should be a pretty quick process that won't delay the game I don't see it as a possible problem at all.

Freakiq
07-01-2013, 14:39
Actually I'd say that the point of a pre-written list is so you can get to the game bit quicker, rather than wait around for someone to write that list. The tailoring aspect I couldn't care less about. I'll be bringing the same list I'd always bring so it have no impact on what I'll be doing. (And I'd argue that it seems GW write at least some of there rules as if your suppose to know who/what you are playing against. The 'all-comers' tyranny is created by players, not GW).
And since swapping the weapons or even the models around should be a pretty quick process that won't delay the game I don't see it as a possible problem at all.

The problem isn't that it takes up time but that your opponent is making last-minute adjustments to his list based on what you're bringing.

This is something that normally isn't allowed by the rules except in this case where RAW permits it.

Lord Inquisitor
07-01-2013, 15:41
Edit: For the sake of argument, I personally feel that changing the model during a game would be exceptionally uncool, if not downright cheating. Changing a model between tournament games is something I think I'd frown on, principally because the whole point of multiple-game tournaments are to force you to build all-comers lists, but it's not actually cheating.

I don't think changing the models you use between games is or should be legal during a tournament. I don't think power weapons add anything new here.

I have to say this whole thing is much harder to spot than people think. It's not even like its necessarily some evil thing people are plotting ahead of time. For example I've got about 10 chaos terminators with a variety of axes, maces and other power weapons some of which aren't even on the list (like a "power whip"). If I make my list I'll just put down 5x terminators and any upgrades I have to pay for like power fists. I won't bother writing down every power weapon. Same in Army Builder, they're just listed as power weapons I believe. Then when I come to play I just pull 5 terminators out of my 10 in my case. In 5th I'd just pull out a selection of power weapons and it wouldn't matter which models I used. Now it matters. But if I haven't decided a priori which weapons to use and at the point I'm deploying the unit (typically via deep strike) I know what I'm playing. If I'm playing orks how many power mauls is appropriate? I'm not out to cheat but I've not even decided before this point which models to use - obviously power mauls are the best choice in this scenario. How many mauls is it reasonable to take in the unit?

This is further complicated by nonstandard models. One of the terminators has an icon and no power weapon at all. Before, I used to count him as having a power weapon and now? I guess I need to convert the model and at least add a weapon in a scabbard.

hobojebus
07-01-2013, 15:46
Look at it like this, you like terminators and they feature heavily in your army, you win deployment and set up your army and once finished you look up to see them swapping power swords for power axes.

Would you be cool with that? the players i know would not because your then arming specifically to counter your army.

In the spirit of the game your list should be 100% fixed before you even open your case, if your opponent has something your poorly equipped to deal with its too bad, you adjust your tactics and deal with it the best you can.

ntw3001
07-01-2013, 15:50
So if creating the army list is based on 'pick a model, tally up points, add it on', doesn't that make this technically illegal anyway? I mean, when you pick a model, I assume you're expected to pick the whole thing, not everything-except-the-left-hand. And once you've chosen your specific entire model, added it up and written it down, that's then the exact model you're presumed to be using. So if an army list is a record of the models you intend to use, and then you use different ones, it's illegal. It's incredibly nitpicky, but I'm open to suggestions on how to discuss this tiny issue in a way that doesn't involve reading into trivialities.

Mauler
07-01-2013, 16:05
I just cant get my head around the rules issue here:

You put POWER WEAPON on your army list, there is no 'you'v not adjusted for 6th' that is the wargear item you buy! That is the title of it in the codex. Unless a tourney says 'declare what type of power weapon on your list' you are in no way breaking any rules by switching it up between a game.

The 'rules issue' is that prior to 6th types of power weapons had no impact on the game, now they do. Yeah, you buy a 'power weapon' but the game mechanics require specifics now and 'power weapon' is hardly the level of detail required. I think we all know by now that different power weapons act differently in CC and in the case of challenges, for example, can have a direct impact on a critical character being more likely to die than not. It's not a massive thing, but in principle it's wrong and in practice list-tailoring to that level stinks of being a WAAC TFG and in practice is can, in certain scenarios, tip the balance of a game.

I think you're perfectly capable of unsterstanding the issue here. :P

IcedCrow
07-01-2013, 16:12
This is not something I personally would condone. It seems a bit WAACster to me. Its the same as being able to pick psyker powers or any other kind of personalized list tailoring (which you cannot do per the rules). A power axe is different from a power weapon is different from a power maul.

Lawyering the rules aside (and yes by the lawyered version of the rules it is "legal") it is, at least to me, most definitely not in the spirit of how the game is conducted or played. While sly and witty, it would sour me on the player as a player and I would happily give him the game and move on to something else.

Carnage
07-01-2013, 16:16
I'm with Latro here. It's legal, it's just massively poor sportsmanship to do so.

Konovalev
07-01-2013, 18:01
I really don't see how this is any different from writing "1500 point Space Marine army" as your armylist and then building it on the spot. The codex says power weapon, the BRB lists the power weapon types, and says to look at the model. So when you build your list you select the desired power weapon type and that goes on your list. You can't have an unspecified power weapon because no such thing exists, there must be a type. And that type is assigned when you build your list, not when you unpack your army, look at your opponents army, close your eyes and TADA! POWER AXE!

dangerboyjim
07-01-2013, 18:03
I don't think it is legal.

You cannot field a model armed with a 'power weapon' like you could before. If you're army list says 'power weapon 10pts' you might as well just say 'weapon 10pt's' if your list doesn't include what your models are actually armed then you haven't finished your list...

Edit: Yes, exactly as the person above described as I was typing this.

Codsticker
07-01-2013, 18:12
It's only legal if you paid the points for the magnets. :skull:

MagicHat
07-01-2013, 18:16
The WD armylists says what weapon was bought.

unwanted
07-01-2013, 23:32
That this would ever be an issue is beyond me. I completely agree that anyone should be able to use magnets to make multi-purpose models, but to think that anyone would ever suggest switching them around at such a late stage is ludicrous. If you've set up the game in advance and know the army, but not the specific list, feel free to tailor. But doing it between games at a tourney? The very suggestion...

Lothlanathorian
07-01-2013, 23:54
The WD armylists says what weapon was bought.

Yes, because WD is a paragon of always getting the rules right and playing by strict RAW*.



I'm with Latro here. It's legal, it's just massively poor sportsmanship to do so.

I concur with this sentiment. It isn't technically illegal, but, I'd be mighty displeased if I were playing in a tourney (which is something that won't ever happen**) and I saw someone do this.



















*Hint: This is absolutely me being sarcastic. WD gets the rules wrong just about as often as they get them right.

**Not that I am opposed to tourney play or anything like that, I just play so very little at this point that it's 99.9% unlikely I will ever participate in one.

Spare Change
08-01-2013, 06:46
Lacking in sportsmanship? Absolutely.

Illegal? I don't see how.

Griefbringer
08-01-2013, 10:02
The WD armylists says what weapon was bought.

Or perhaps they rather say what weapon the model was equipped with, for the benefit of readers who might have difficulty telling it from the pictures and not being able to view the actual model in front of them?

Beppo1234
08-01-2013, 11:08
I wouldn't share my finalized list with someone, until theirs is finalized. If my opponent is tweaking up to the very last second, I expect the same courtesy.

Spiney Norman
08-01-2013, 11:36
I don't think it is legal.

You cannot field a model armed with a 'power weapon' like you could before. If you're army list says 'power weapon 10pts' you might as well just say 'weapon 10pt's' if your list doesn't include what your models are actually armed then you haven't finished your list...

Edit: Yes, exactly as the person above described as I was typing this.

Absolutely not, because afaik there are no army list entries in any GW codex that list a "weapon" as an available upgrade costing 10pts, there are however a significant number that allow you to purchase a "power weapon" for xx pts.

I have yet to come across an army list entry that stipulates the different types of power weapon, I have also yet to come across a line in the rule book or FAQ entry that requires you to list which type of power weapons you are using on your army list when the codex entry does not require you to.

Feel free to prove me wrong by posting a quote in this thread with the relevant citation, I just don't think it exists.

I would qualify that attempting this in a tournement between games could definitely be viewed as cheating, to be sure ask the tournement organiser straight out, where one-off games are concerned I would not have a problem with it at all. I imagine that most tournements will require you to include the type of power weapon used as an addition to the normal army list entry because of the unique way that tournement linked games work.

Freakiq
08-01-2013, 11:59
Doesn't matter if it's legal or not, they are changing the equipment before the game starts based on what they're facing.
It's just as bad as rewriting your army-list but happens to fall into a grey area.

Do you people really see Power Weapons as some sort of Shroedinger's Cat that materializes into what you want it to be? :wtf:

Lord Zarkov
08-01-2013, 12:04
I have yet to come across an army list entry that stipulates the different types of power weapon, I have also yet to come across a line in the rule book or FAQ entry that requires you to list which type of power weapons you are using on your army list when the codex entry does not require you to.



A Note on Power Weapons
Wherever in this book's rules a model is described as being either equipped with a 'power weapon' or has the option to take one then either a power sword, power axe or power maul (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook) may be freely chosen so long as they are clearly depicted on the model.
This implies you have to actually write down on your list which one you choose, and limits models to 3 out of the four types

Wargear (Legion Techmarine)
Power Axe

[Apothecarion Detachment] Option
The Apothecary may exchange their chainsword for:
- Power Sword
Specifies a type, only one allowed



[Warpsmith] Wargear:
Power Axe

[Dark Apostle] Wargear:
Power Maul

[Lucius the Eternal] Wargear:
Power Sword

So lots in there that specify a type - and that's just thing released since 6th, not to mention the FAQs that: split Frost Blades up into a choice between Frost Blade and Frost Axe (different entries now); force Chaplains to have Power Mauls; define the power weapons for various Special Characters; Define Howling Banshees as having power swords; define Techmarines as having Power Axes; define Glaive Encarmines as being either swords or axes; etc

If you haven't found any unit entries that list a specific type then it's because you haven't been bothered to look.

xxRavenxx
08-01-2013, 22:15
I have also yet to come across a line in the rule book or FAQ entry that requires you to list which type of power weapons you are using on your army list when the codex entry does not require you to.

There is no faq stating i cant write two lists, and switch when i see youre playing space marines.

Its a simple thing this argument. Those who use closed lists will not let people switch weapons on the fly. Those who allow tailoring, or last minute list building will not be effected.

There should be no middleground.

dangerboyjim
08-01-2013, 22:50
Absolutely not, because afaik there are no army list entries in any GW codex that list a "weapon" as an available upgrade costing 10pts, there are however a significant number that allow you to purchase a "power weapon" for xx pts..

Exactly, in the same way that 'weapon' doesn't exist, 'power weapon' doesn't exist. You can no longer take a 'power weapon' you have to take a power sword, axe, maul, pointy stick etc. Where the old entries said power weapon, you have to now take what the model is armed with or if it's ambiguous I guess you can choose.

Treat the option to take power weapons in the same way that you would treat any superceded rule. If your army list says power weapon, it's not legal, the option to take them has been superceded.

Another way to look at it, is to take for example the Tau codex the unit option says you may take items from the suit wargear list, clearly you can't just put wargear in your list and choose. just before the game.

But this is silly, would anyone really try and do this? Seems like a lot of bad will for not much advantage.

Nikolaus
11-01-2013, 13:47
Exactly, in the same way that 'weapon' doesn't exist, 'power weapon' doesn't exist. You can no longer take a 'power weapon' you have to take a power sword, axe, maul, pointy stick etc. Where the old entries said power weapon, you have to now take what the model is armed with or if it's ambiguous I guess you can choose.

Treat the option to take power weapons in the same way that you would treat any superceded rule. If your army list says power weapon, it's not legal, the option to take them has been superceded.

Another way to look at it, is to take for example the Tau codex the unit option says you may take items from the suit wargear list, clearly you can't just put wargear in your list and choose. just before the game.

But this is silly, would anyone really try and do this? Seems like a lot of bad will for not much advantage.

there are idiots out there that would rather waste 20-30mins in a tournie while we check and double check rules... and then with TO etc...

between games.. switching weapons i'd agree to.. but during, as i have seen some state they would... is downright cheating

and its a tournie.. if you cant tailor list to fight a Wing of some type... then you are letting neckbeards win..

if you pay the points for a power weapon... and he has magnetized or have an 3-4 identically equipped bar the PW models to use as a sarge or hq.. then why are people complaining?

IcedCrow
11-01-2013, 13:59
Because you are saying its ok to have points invested in "something" but not having to disclose what that "something" is until deployment.

That's the same as buying wargear for a character, but not writing it down until I know who I am facing. I just spent "100 points on wargear" that I can swap in and out between my games as I want (hell a lot of times I don't even need to model it). I don't see that as ever being right.

omgadinosaur
11-01-2013, 20:05
Because you are saying its ok to have points invested in "something" but not having to disclose what that "something" is until deployment.

That's the same as buying wargear for a character, but not writing it down until I know who I am facing. I just spent "100 points on wargear" that I can swap in and out between my games as I want (hell a lot of times I don't even need to model it). I don't see that as ever being right.

But what if all the wargear was magnetized so you could switch out the armor/weapons/iron halos/ twin linked devourers!?!?!?:p

carlisimo
11-01-2013, 20:19
Do you people really see Power Weapons as some sort of Shroedinger's Cat that materializes into what you want it to be? :wtf:

Some days, you can't swing a maybe-dead cat without hitting an ork in here!