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corps
09-01-2013, 18:36
who have face them or played them ? are they well balanced?

Mozzamanx
09-01-2013, 18:41
I have not played against them yet, but as I understand it the book has very poor internal balance: Most of it is fairly weak, but a small handful of units are so grotesque as to completely dominate the game. Unfortunately players tend to include more of the ridiculous stuff than the underpowered units, and so it has a reputation for being pretty nasty.

Essentially it is all about the Magma Cannons and K'Daii Destroyer, while the rest of the army acts as cheerleaders. You will normally see a few Hobgoblin Bosses on Wolves to act as cheap redirectors, and the obligatory L4 Sorcerer Prophet will lead them.

corps
09-01-2013, 19:07
i notice that the hobgoblyns cavalry is a elite unit taking a important slot while not justifiying it. kadai fireborn (the smaller) can kill themselves just with probability. if i face them i won t attack them i will just have to wait for their death. their special sorcers is weaker than the comon one due to nit have acces to the same number of spell choice.

FraustyTheSnowman
10-01-2013, 01:27
I'm pretty new to fantasy, but I play chaos dwarves out of that book (there's tons of fandexes that flout around the web and an old white dwarf supliment titles Ravening Hordes, or something like that).

From what I've seen magmacannons and the destroyer are pretty solid units, and probably the things most complained about. The lore of Hashut gets some flakk too. Here's a bit of insider information...
Magmacannon...haven't used this yet, but a flame template with s5 and does d3 wounds, so I can see why people complain about three MC lists. I can tell you anything you want to know about the unit, but I don't have anything in mind as to a counter. Mostly I'm just not that familiar with what other armies can do...so other than typical antiwarmachine type stuff I'm not sure what to say. If the CD player is smart there's going to be a daemonsmith near by to protect it and other warmachines, and give it a reroll on the artillery dice.

Destroyer...Huge, fast, nightmare in closecombat, and fairly cheap. Best option is to come at it with something that ignores thunderstomp and has a good wardsave from flaming attacks. I've heard of people having their destroyer tied up with cheap heroes because of the dragonhelm/talisman things (2++vs flaming). The thing you want to watchout for is the thunderstom (I think anways) isn't affected by it's flaming attacks, so get something up there that isn't subject to TS. Otherwise, yeah, this guy's a bitch unless they roll bad on their Burning Bright roll (what makes K'daai wound themselves). I haven't used one yet, and don't know if I ever will. I want to make one, as I love sculpting and converting, but it'll probably be something I only bring out for big crazy games.

Lore of Hashut...A lot of people complain about this lore due to the signature spell and ashstorm, but fail to realize some of the others are a little lackluster. Also, for what it's worth the only way to get the lore is on the lord choice. I'll give a bit of description on each of the spells and let you ask any questions you have after...

Breath of Hatred (sig spell) - Remains in play and is faqed so if you cast it into a combat that is ongoing it still works. In short, gives a unit hatred. Can be boosted to give all units within range (12) hatred.

Burning Wrath - 8 inch magic missile for 1d6 s6 flaming hits, can be boosted to be 2d6.

Dark Subjugation - 24 inch hex that causes unit to take LD test at -3 or perm lower their LD by 1. Cumulative for multiple casting.

Curse of Hashut - 18 inch direct damage spell that targets a specific model. Model takes 2d6-their t score hits, wounds on 4+ with no armor.

Ashstorm - 24 inch hex, target suffers -1 to hit in melee -2 to hit in shooting, can't charge, march, or fly, treats all terrain as dangerous terrain, wizards can't cast spells 'cept on themselves, units effected by t spell count as being flamable. Effects last until caster's next magic phase.

Hell Hammer - direct damage hitting everything in line 3d6 inches infront of caster. Hits like a cannon. Models hit take I test or suffer s6 hit causing d3 wounds. Panic if any casualties. Can boost it to double the range.

Flames of Azgorh - direct damage spell cast on any point in casters line of sight. Small template, scatters d6. All models touched suffer s6 hit, flaming, d6 wounds. Model directly under hole takes T test at -2 or be slain outright with no saves. Can be boosted to use larger template (no mention of increasing scatter distance).

I also know a lot of comp packages will hit the Chalice of Blood and Darkness (arcane item) fairly hard. I'm still unsure of exactly how it works, but the gist is whenever it's used you lower your spell dice by d3 and the opponents dice by d3. Roll seperate dice for each, can be used in either player's magic phase. Bearer suffers a wound if both dice come up as 1, and regains a wound if both come up as 6.

Other than all that, one thing that I find particularly impressive with them are the blunderbusses. d3 s3 shots with armor piercing. The more models that fire the more benefit they gain, totaling out at 20 for no penalty to hit for moving or stand and shoot (or long range I think), and reroll to wound. Their bloody expensive, costing half a chaos dwarf each, and need to be used in pretty large units...but they make people pretty unhappy.

Anything specific you'd like to know that I didn't cover?

Kalandros
10-01-2013, 11:42
Chalice is extremely powerful, should be a lord only item but then there's Hellhearts that should also be 55 pts so meh.
Lore of Hashut has 2 broken spells and some very powerful ones otherwise.
Engineers Lv1 Fire Wizard spamming fireballs is annoying.

corps
10-01-2013, 12:30
what about their items? what useful combinaison with the rules book items?

FraustyTheSnowman
10-01-2013, 13:04
There is a hammer that adds 2 to your strength and kills anyone successfully wounded who is flamable. It sounds nice coupled with ashstorm but so far I've had a hard time fitting it on anyone.

There is a mask that adds 1 to armor, gives a 4++/2++ against flaming attacks and causes fear. Seems popular to put on the BSB for a 2+/4++2++vs flaming, or a khan (hobgoblin hero) on a wolf to go cause fear and molest warmachines.

Other than that (and the afore mentioned chalice) I can't think of anything, but I'll crack the book open tomorow and look again.

What are hellhearts?

corps
10-01-2013, 15:27
i was just thinking that a storm of magic with chaos dwarf could be interestiing.

FraustyTheSnowman
10-01-2013, 18:11
I'm not familiar with Storm of Magic enough to say, though I do know they have no official Cataclysm spells (don't actually know what those are, just that CD only have fan made ones) and that the sorcerer prophet can ride a lamasu which can use the options out of the monster listing in the SoM book. It's their only access to the shadow lore.

corps
10-01-2013, 18:54
thank the lamasu make it more dangerous

Da Crusha
11-01-2013, 12:48
chaos dwarfs have been my main army for the last 4 1/2 years or so. I playd with ravening hordes in 7th and 8th and then switched to tamurkhan/ legion of azgorh when the book came out.

above posters pretty much said it all. we have our list and there are obvious good choices. for example, the destroyer and the siege giant are similarly costed but the destroyer has a ward save, is difficult to hurt, is much faster and hits like a truck, the siege giant can suck occasionally. the dreadquake mortar is comparable to the hellcannon in point cost and shooting but the hellcannon is an unbreakable monster capable of charging and protecting a flank. the basic chaos dwarf costs 12 points, the elite chaos dwarf costs 17 points and has +1 WS and +1S and magical. since the army has a lot of expensive choices it is typical of a chaos dwarf player to choose the cheaper set up just to fill out some ranks. the armies are typically small.

Lordcypress
11-01-2013, 13:17
I heard from a bird that the Chaos Dwarf book is on the net if you look.

FraustyTheSnowman
11-01-2013, 18:09
Granted, I haven't used it yet, but I think the dreadquake isn't the lesser choice, just a different choice. I think the effects of the Quake rule (or whatever it's called, away from my book) give it it's own niche. When people in my area get bigger armies (and I get back in my area) I'm going to try running a pair of hellcannons and a dreadquake.

As for the book being online, yeah, it probably is. There are also lots and lots of fan dexes online and I believe the ravening hordes book is available as a pdf...so trying to find the Tamurkhan book might end you up with a whole lot of the wrong thing. Honestly I'd love to have a pdf of the rules as I don't like taking my expensive forgeworld book out in the weather (my "area" is in wyoming, so the summer isn't a problem but the winter is) and REALLY don't like taking it to the game store to have gagles of sticky fingered little twits ohh and ahh over it...

corps
11-01-2013, 22:07
i have the same policy i buy the book and then have them transform in pdf because it s easier to move in a usb key than in a bag. but having the book is for me a must have. i may be nostalgique but for me paper is alive while pdf is not.

Da Crusha
12-01-2013, 06:18
Granted, I haven't used it yet, but I think the dreadquake isn't the lesser choice, just a different choice. I think the effects of the Quake rule (or whatever it's called, away from my book) give it it's own niche. When people in my area get bigger armies (and I get back in my area) I'm going to try running a pair of hellcannons and a dreadquake.


well, you will see when the dreadquake is needed to help flank a unit or kill chaff but can't because its not a hellcannon. war machines can't charge. the hellcannon being an unbreakable monster is a huge advantage when it comes to close combat. it even has the 3 handlers which are effectively 5+ ward saves following the monster and handler rules.

this is, of course, if it wasn't changed in the recent white dwarf update. not sure about that. and also may get nerfed when the new Warriors of chaos book is released.

shortlegs
12-01-2013, 10:28
I saw someone using the list to the extreme once. He proxied a CD army with 3 magmas, 3 rockets, hellcannon and the mandatory destroyer, just for the kicks of it. He smoked the ogre player. It was one of the most lopsided and boring games I've seen.

I think the book suffers from horrendous internal balance. Some units are just plain better then others, which is why almost all competitive CD lists look pretty similar.

FraustyTheSnowman
12-01-2013, 14:32
Da Crusha...No, the dreadquake isn't an unbreakable monster, but neither does the hellcannon have all the abilities the dreadquake does. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm saying their not exactly comparable. They serve differen't purposes...that's why I'm planning on using both. A hellcannon on either side of my line to do exactly like you said, protect flanks so my artillery (deathshriekers and the dreadquake) can keep firing...and the dreadquake to try and keep priority targets from hitting my lines right away.

Pretty sure the hellcannon wasn't changed in the last whitedwarf insert, though I've only caught glances of it. As for what it's going to end up as in the coming army book...yeah, I'm a little worried. As long as the general theme is still there (artillery that fights back) and it's not horribly expensive I'll be alright with it. I'm not going superduper power gamer mode with my chaos dwarfs...but knowing my luck it'll be watered down to nothing, or outright phased out of the book.

Shortlegs...like I said I'm not real familiar with fantasy, but I know at least in 40k that describes just about all of the existing codexes, even the newer ones (though they are getting better). There's always going to be units that are flat out better than others. GW has never, ever ever, given more than a passing thought to game balance when designing their rules.

shortlegs
13-01-2013, 00:59
Shortlegs...like I said I'm not real familiar with fantasy, but I know at least in 40k that describes just about all of the existing codexes, even the newer ones (though they are getting better). There's always going to be units that are flat out better than others. GW has never, ever ever, given more than a passing thought to game balance when designing their rules.
Not totally true.

I was honestly surprised by say the VC book. Some units being obviously less optimal but still have their uses, while the number of relatively comparable units are enough to allow pretty diverse but still competitive builds.

For CD, most of the better options are the warmachines. Combined with slow, overpriced core and other uninspiring specials/rares (except the destroyer of course), this leads to only 1 playstyle which is to load up with warmachines and blast the enemy off the table. Other builds are simply less effective because of the lack of internal balance.

FraustyTheSnowman
13-01-2013, 04:12
Guess we'll agree to dissagree. I've talked to people who've had luck with builds outside the warmachine heavy force, I've talked to people who don't use destroyers. Funnily enough I've gotten the impression that there's only so many really competitive builds in the VC book...

Da Crusha
13-01-2013, 08:36
there are plenty of competitive builds beside warmachine heavy lists. my favorite tournament build right now only has one warmachine, a deathshrieker rocket. the list is pretty competitive.

corps
13-01-2013, 20:48
they also have cheap hobgoblyns sacrificiable unit the one one foot because the rider could have been useful if they weren't in the elite section.

thrawn
13-01-2013, 20:56
I have not played against them yet, but as I understand it the book has very poor internal balance: Most of it is fairly weak, but a small handful of units are so grotesque as to completely dominate the game. Unfortunately players tend to include more of the ridiculous stuff than the underpowered units, and so it has a reputation for being pretty nasty.

Essentially it is all about the Magma Cannons and K'Daii Destroyer, while the rest of the army acts as cheerleaders. You will normally see a few Hobgoblin Bosses on Wolves to act as cheap redirectors, and the obligatory L4 Sorcerer Prophet will lead them.

i play chaos dwarfs, it's not fun to play against 2 steam tanks either . . .

i do not beard it, i only put 1 magma cannon and no destroyers . . . i still usually win though.

Kalandros
13-01-2013, 22:17
I've no problem with the K'daii and 2 magma cannons.

I have a very big issue with the Chalice and Lore of Hashut.
Neither should be allowed. :P

FraustyTheSnowman
14-01-2013, 00:18
Kalandros...can you articulate the issues with chalice/lore of hashut? I'm not trying to argue, I'm curious. I've actually been looking into the whole chalice thing. I assume the issue with it is using it after you cast a spell but before they dispell?

Da Crusha
14-01-2013, 07:11
@kalandros: if the chalice is used the way frausty has said then I can see what your gripe is with it. but most respectable players would never use it like that. its just plain cheesy.

and whats wrong with the Lore of hashut? nothing in there is as broken as mindrazor, purple sun or dwellers below.

Kalandros
14-01-2013, 10:35
Kalandros...can you articulate the issues with chalice/lore of hashut? I'm not trying to argue, I'm curious. I've actually been looking into the whole chalice thing. I assume the issue with it is using it after you cast a spell but before they dispell?

Has too great an effect on the magic phase.

As for the lore, that S6 D6W + autokill (T Test at -2) center template, when boosted doesn't deviate more?
Easy access to re-roll to hit spell is really good
Ashstorm.. come on o; That's a 25+ spell level for what.. half that casting value?

Da Crusha
14-01-2013, 11:31
Has too great an effect on the magic phase.

As for the lore, that S6 D6W + autokill (T Test at -2) center template, when boosted doesn't deviate more?
Easy access to re-roll to hit spell is really good
Ashstorm.. come on o; That's a 25+ spell level for what.. half that casting value?


the same could be said about many other lores. throne of vines etc.

our S6 D6w spell does deviate though unlike the other big spells, mindrazor, purple sun or dwellers below. the hatred spell only gives an edge, high elfs and dark elves have it automatically without having to cast a spell.

ashstorm is undercosted but its no more broken than the other big spells I mentioned.

shortlegs
14-01-2013, 12:22
Guess we'll agree to dissagree. I've talked to people who've had luck with builds outside the warmachine heavy force, I've talked to people who don't use destroyers. Funnily enough I've gotten the impression that there's only so many really competitive builds in the VC book...


there are plenty of competitive builds beside warmachine heavy lists. my favorite tournament build right now only has one warmachine, a deathshrieker rocket. the list is pretty competitive.
I think we need to define competitive a little.

When I said competitive, I was talking about tournament-level competition with no comp, and whether such lists can hold its own against the filthiest in the game. For VC, the BK bus, crypt horror heavy builds and to a lesser extent infantry heavy builds are all generally regarded as competitive when view from such a perspective, and we are not even talking about the minor permutations of the rest of the list for which there are many.

For CD, besides the warmachine heavy + destroyer armies, the list itself offers very little else that can be considered really good. Just because a particular player had some small success with other builds doesn't mean said list can really hang out with the big boys. Differences in player skill, matchups and luck are all potential bias.

I would love to be proved wrong. Maybe you can post some sample lists and talk a little bit about how they would work against other generally accepted hard lists.

Norngahl
14-01-2013, 13:15
I play CD myself and there are only 3 truly hard things in the list, but there are easy ways to counter them if you are a smart player.

1. Kdaai Destroyer
A total beast in CC, but has few weaknesses. First, his attacks are flaming, so a char with 2++ against flaming atttacks or things like HE dragonknights take him out of the game faster as you can watch, or at least, slow him down significantly to buy yourself time. Even if it is just a big block of sacrificial units (40+ blocks), it will help you to deal with the other stuff in the army pretty much. Second, he has only a 4++ wardsave.. Massed attacks, and especially POISON, are the death sentence for him. Really, poision isn't funny for this guy, he'll be dead against a horde in a single round..

2. Magma Cannon
24" S5 Flameplate, wow, granted, that is awesome. Still there are some things you should consider. First thing is CD have usually few units on the board, so your warmachine hunters (smart players have some) will easily get close to those. Because everything is expensive on CD armies, facing 3+ warmachines is rather good for you, as this means they are lacking CC power (at least at 2k games), so run into them as fast as you can. Counter Sniping with cannons is also a viable option, as the cd have only s8 deathshrieker rockets, so your WM are safer than his.. Take out the magmacannon and your block can march forward. As I said, countersniping it with cannons is the easiest way. 3 WM (2x Magma, 1x Hellcannon) is around 500 points, say easily another 600 points spend on chars only leave 900 points for the army, there go another 325 for the Destroyer and then you the CD is forced to take core units as well.. Rather expect just 1x Magma and 1 Hellcannon otherwise there is no army around. So you can't really complain about that, as these are only weapons to melt down blocks.. If you are a "i have 1 deathstar unit to beat you up" player, than yes, you'll cry as most of the kiddie players out there. CD warmachines down kill units, they just soften them up, especially the big expensive blocks. Your own fault when you put all eggs into one basket ;). On higher point games than 2k, you can easily get 1-3 decent warmachine hunters in.

3. Ash Storm
Yes, the 4th Spell of Lore of Hashut is neat. It makes a unit just beeing able to move at regular speed, unable to cast/attack/march. It is a "block a unit out for a turn and deal with the rest" spell. Usually there is only 1 turn per game where a charge/spell can change the outcome of a game.. keep your scroll for that and you are fine. Nothing more to say. Other races have this blocking option in another form, most times in a char/unit one. THink of DE Pegasus Lord with Pendant and Crown of a unit of flaggellants or such "tank and stubborn" char builds of other races. Nothing new here, just that it is a spell. The big pro is, you can keep it away from you with a scroll, but you wont get rid of the peggi lord that easy. So don't cry I'd say :)


All in all, CD are just under mediocore IMO. They have some units that are fine for their bucks (infernal guard with HW/S, Bull Centaures with GW, Deathshriekers, Hobgobs), some units are a bit overpriced (Infernal guard with GW, Kdaai Fireborn, Iron Daemon), some units are totally overpriced (Skullcracker, Slave Giant, Ironsworn, Infernal Guard with Blunderbusses), some are a bit underpriced (Magma Cannon, Destroyer), all in all everything is fairly balanced as the armylist only has 2 units (Destroyer, Magmacannon) that are auto include that are a bit underpriced, but anyone has neat auto includes. Still you won't face more than 1 Magma and 1 Destroyer on 2k, a second magma maybe on 2,5k, otherwise there is no real army left cause everything is expensive.

Me thinks both, the Destroyer and the Magmacannon can be handeld easily by any well balanced army. The players that are succesfull with CD are most propably smarter players that would rather r*pe you with any of the top tier armys. Still I'd consider CD as a style army and not a competative one, just because most of the stuff is overpriced/cost intensive and you run out of points pertty quickly.

FraustyTheSnowman
14-01-2013, 19:40
Shortlegs...I'm not familiar enough with fantasy, especially other armies, to give a solid counter argument.

Kalandros...Anything more you'd like to say on the chalice would be greatly appreciated. Again, I'm not trying to argue but trying to understand. Looking at what little I know about this system I don't see the issue, and wouldn't have a problem with people running chalice even the way I described, but I'm more than willing to admit there might be something I'm missing.

As for the lore, I remember looking at the spell you're talking about and thinking it looked solid. Hatred, ashstorm, and that one all seem like decent spells to me. I can see why people have issues with ashstorm, especially when it's noted that open terrain is still classified as terrain in the main rulebook, but I don't, as of yet, think the other two are broken. Maybe as I learn the abilities of the rest of the armies I'll change my mind though.

Norngahl
14-01-2013, 21:15
Shortlegs...I'm not familiar enough with fantasy, especially other armies, to give a solid counter argument.

Kalandros...Anything more you'd like to say on the chalice would be greatly appreciated. Again, I'm not trying to argue but trying to understand. Looking at what little I know about this system I don't see the issue, and wouldn't have a problem with people running chalice even the way I described, but I'm more than willing to admit there might be something I'm missing.

As for the lore, I remember looking at the spell you're talking about and thinking it looked solid. Hatred, ashstorm, and that one all seem like decent spells to me. I can see why people have issues with ashstorm, especially when it's noted that open terrain is still classified as terrain in the main rulebook, but I don't, as of yet, think the other two are broken. Maybe as I learn the abilities of the rest of the armies I'll change my mind though.

Thing with Chalice is the following:
Your magic phase- Say you got 7 and the enemy 5 dices. You cast a spell with 3, enemy does not counter. Then you throw the other 4. After you did this, you use the chalice. Say you are lucky and the enemy got -3 DD. So he has only two left to counter the spell, which is most propably impossible. You got, say, -2 PD, but as you have none anyway, there is no malus for you. Thing is you can use the chalice at any time you want- even inbetween the dicerolls.
His Magic Phase- He got 9, you got 5 dices. He throws out a small spell with 2 dices, you do not counter. Say he has 6 dices left. He throws a spell with 4 dices, you throw all of your 5 dices to counter. He his happy and aims to throw his final important spell. You throw the chalice, have no DD yourself so no matter the malus, but steal him 2 dices. He fails to beat the difficulty, so you only suffered a single small spell. Lvl4 effectivly taken out.

Personally I think its a nice item, but way not as broken as things like the book of hoeth, the sacrificial dagger or such of the lizardmen items/abilities. Once you suffered this suprice, you can plan your upcoming phases to encounter it.. But because this is a point of tactic, all those people just throwing dices get pissed about it.

Same with the Lore. Hatred is nice on- Horde of Infernal Guard, Bull Centaures, Kdaai Fireborn/Destroyer.. You know what spells your enemy has.. Just save your dices or scrolls to counter.. Really.. Ashstorm is only truely nice when you have an all eggs into one basket unit that HAS to charge. But then again, these are the dicerollers.. And as I already mentioned before, there are different things out there that do the same (tanks with crown like peggi lord, unbreakable/stubborn throwaway units, conga lines with crown hero attached..) on which all of the races have access.. If you love/hate the tactic, use it yourself. A smart player can handle this, as does a well balanced armylist without "THE BADASS" unit..

There are just a few things to watch against CD..
1. Snipe their Magma Cannon
2. Feed the Destroyer Crap/block it out of the game/get some poison
3. If your main unit has to charge next round, save up a scroll
4. Once combat broke out, save your DD for hatred spell


nothing more to say...

Da Crusha
15-01-2013, 04:49
I think we need to define competitive a little.

When I said competitive, I was talking about tournament-level competition with no comp, and whether such lists can hold its own against the filthiest in the game. For VC, the BK bus, crypt horror heavy builds and to a lesser extent infantry heavy builds are all generally regarded as competitive when view from such a perspective, and we are not even talking about the minor permutations of the rest of the list for which there are many.

For CD, besides the warmachine heavy + destroyer armies, the list itself offers very little else that can be considered really good. Just because a particular player had some small success with other builds doesn't mean said list can really hang out with the big boys. Differences in player skill, matchups and luck are all potential bias.

I would love to be proved wrong. Maybe you can post some sample lists and talk a little bit about how they would work against other generally accepted hard lists.

hmm, even though I frequent the tournament scene, Im not familiar enough with those builds. can you give some examples of them. how they work, what makes them good?


Maybe you can post some sample lists and talk a little bit about how they would work against other generally accepted hard lists.

sure, later on Ill try posting some stuff.

shortlegs
15-01-2013, 10:15
hmm, even though I frequent the tournament scene, Im not familiar enough with those builds. can you give some examples of them. how they work, what makes them good?
I'm probably embarrassing myself here in front of true hardcore tourney players, but briefly:

BK bus:
Having 2-3 combat characters in a big unit of 15+ BK as a character delivery system. The unit wrecks face with the plethora of attacks from the ASF+red fury VL and 1-2 other quickblood or red fury vamp heroes. The sheer amount of attacks that you can get can be pretty amazing. The BKs provide some backup attacks but are mainly there for the ranks and protection from spells and missile fire on the way into combat. Few units can stand up to such a unit. Chaff is extremely important in such a list to allow the bus to pick its combat, and often a terrorgheist is added to help deal with solo monsters / characters trying to hold up the bus. Quite often quoted as the most competitive build for VC.

Crypt horror:
I think the stats for crypt horrors speak for themselves especially for such a cheap cost and a potential to heal many wounds with invokation. Bring as many CHs as you can, move to engage, and just grind the opponent down. A mortis engine is optional as even a 5+ regen is great when backed up by T5 in a cheap package, and bringing more CHs instead of the engine is a benefit against warmachine heavy armies or flaming units.

Infantry heavy:
Your regular big blocks of ghouls and grave guard supported by combat heroes and maybe mortis engines. Works well with good magic support as the vampire, death and shadow lores all help vastly in combat. Still a viable build but probably less able to get a big win compared to the BK bus and less forgiving than a CH heavy list and thus likely less competitive than the other 2.

Eagerly awaiting your analysis of CD builds as my experience with them is the least among all the armies..

shortlegs
15-01-2013, 10:15
Edit: stupid double post...

Da Crusha
16-01-2013, 02:29
hmm, Ill start by showing you my favorite list right now, i've used it only half a dozen times or so. I got tired of the war machine heavy lists because of war machine hunters and the like and now go with a conservative list. Also I was spoiled with ravening hordes war machine heavy lists and 8th edition rules making an extremely nasty army. after experiencing that with all its glory, I wasn't impressed by LoA Heavy warmachine lists. RH did it better.

anyhow, my favorite list right now includes a level 4 hashut wizard with 2+ AS, 4+ ward and chalice. BSB with dragon helm, blackhammer of hashut, shield and dawnstone. another castelan, with armour of bhazrakk the cruel. the deamonsmith is a level 2 metal wizard with dispel scroll and charm shield. a hobgoblin khan with light armour and shield and spear. one unit of 20 infernal guard with full command, one unit of 20 Infernal guard with full command and great weapons, one unit of 26 infernal guard with full command, flaming banner and blunderbuss. a deathshrieker rocket battery and a destroyer.

the list is unique to many common Loa lists right now because of the duel castelans 3 units of infernal guard and single warmachine. the reason for having 2 castelans is to have 2 units with stubborn.

at the end of my deployment I can choose where to put my stubborn characters giving me the best possible positions. facing the vc bus, I would use the signature spell from the Lore of metal wizard to widdle down those numbers. to fight off their magic phase and replenishment I would use all of my dispel dice early and use the chalice when I no longer have any. during my own magic phase I would attempt to cast ashstorm on the bus unit preventing it from charging. in the shooting phase most things would be out of range of the blunderbuss but I could keep them near destroyer to help remove chaff. the deathshrieker rocket battery would be used to kill the terrorgeist with assistance from the deamonsmith. the hobgoblin hero will also be used to remove chaff. I would use the destroyer for character hunting and charge the destroyer into fighty characters I may have trouble fighting otherwise.

outside of my current list, for units such as the bus, a dreadquake mortar and an Iron deamon might be a good choice. the mortar has a S5(S10) small template with armour piercing. this would give the unit -3 modifiers when taking armour saves and then may give them dangerous terrain tests (not sure if ethereal mount will nullify that effect) if they move. the iron deamon should be able to take a charge from the bus with its T8 W8 unbreakable profile and that is when it isn't firing its S6 armour piercing shot. the major problem with the iron deamon though is its lack of mobility. it may be easy to avoid and will need some baby sitting.

I haven't fought against the list so this is all speculation right now. let me know your thoughts.

GrandmasterWang
16-01-2013, 05:36
ash storm also stops wizards doesn't it? if I recall that is why it is brutal in addition to its other effects.

the dreadquake is a worthy choice. I don't think the hellcannon shots are armor piercing? so it has an added advantage. the fact that it has 6 wounds incl the ogre make it surprisingly resilient.

I have had some great success with blunderbuss horde. they can be very useful. Against competitive lists as well but I have not tried them vs filth yet.

tomb kings really hate the black hammer!

Kalandros
16-01-2013, 08:36
Quick reminder, Chalice isn't 12 times per game, its once per full turn, so 6 times at most in a 6 turn game.
Which isn't how it was used the first time against me in a tournament so that's where my hate for it comes from

And yes, the fact that it isn't used AT THE START of the magic phase like dice generating things (banner of sorcery, etc) gives it too much control and being able to use it without having any dice on your side is also a VERY BIG advantage.
The item is too good for 50 pts.

Da Crusha
16-01-2013, 09:57
@ kalandros: you can use the chalice during any magic phase, it specifically says so.

its not as powerful as you think. in fact it is rarely even used every turn. it was much better in ravening hordes. now the amount removed varies too much to be dependable and can even take a wound from you.

Kalandros
16-01-2013, 12:19
@ kalandros: you can use the chalice during any magic phase, it specifically says so.

I'm not sure where I saw the mention of once per game turn, I'll have to look for it I guess.
edit: nvm, it was on chaos dwarfs forums and it was someone being mistaken :3
12 magic phases it is!

But anyway its incredibly annoying that it isn't used at the START of the magic phase like every other power dice-altering item :[

FraustyTheSnowman
16-01-2013, 12:31
Kalandros...thanks for explaining better. I tried opening a discussion with my group about it over facebook but only one person responded...so I'm going to show up next time I'm in town, find someone to play against, let them know the specifics, and try it out before I reserve judgement. It honestly doesn't seem that big of a deal to me, but like I've been saying, I don't have a lot of games of fantasy under my belt just yet.

GrandmasterWang...wizards can cast spells on themselves, but yeah, otherwise shuts them down. I LOVE blunderbusses. Most of my games I've ran a unit of thirty in horde formation, and now that I know how characters work in units and all that I'm going to up it to thirty four twelve wide. I didn't realize you had to have characters at the front rank...But yeah, BBs are amazing. So far in my group that's been the only thing even close to being complained about.

Da Crusha
16-01-2013, 13:07
the funny thing about blunderbuss is yes, they can dish out a lot of damage but the points that you spend on them could easily be spent on war machines that would do more over the course of a game. the blunderbuss has such a short effective range it will only be able to fire 2 or 3 times. and considering you have to pay +6 points per model and they aren't at full effectiveness until you've bought 20+ of them, the 120 points minimum could be better spent elsewhere. for instance in the list I posted above I bought 26 models with blunderbuss, costing 156 points just for the upgrade. this could buy me a magma cannon that could be firing most of the entire game and also has the range benefit, could possibly wound a character failing a LoS and then still does D3 wounds.

the benefits on the other hand are blunderbuss are not war machines and do not misfire and won't be stopped by typical war machine hunter units. and they don't have the nasty reputation a magma cannon has so will grant me a better comp score.

FraustyTheSnowman
16-01-2013, 18:32
That's one way to look at it for sure. There is also a limit on how many points you can spend on warmachines...granted it's not terribly limiting, with units available in both rare and special, but it's there. Mostly what I've done so far is buy a big unit of IG with blunderbusses to get my min core and either leave it at that, or pick up a couple ten man units of IG with fireglaves if the game is large enough. I don't personally feel I would be better off taking those points that I spent on buying BBs and using them to buy more basic IG.

Also, at least as of yet, the way things have gone...a unit comes toward my BB unit. I get a round or two to shoot, then I get to shoot once more due to stand and shoot. This either eliminates them completely, or those that do survive to get into melee are so decimated they don't have a leg to stand on in the fight. Granted, I don't have a lot of games in yet, and I'm sure there are things out there that can weather the fire (I'd love a heads up on any units to watch out for...). The unit is also nearish my warmachines...and so units that come in massacre a deathshriker are then left facing 20+ irate dwarves with guns...though the angles on this often get disadvantageous.

I don't mean to say BB are the shizat and anyone not using them is a dolt. But I will say they've done very well for me so far, and once I start coming up against something that seems to counter them, I'll try out something else.

Norngahl
16-01-2013, 21:40
That's one way to look at it for sure. There is also a limit on how many points you can spend on warmachines...granted it's not terribly limiting, with units available in both rare and special, but it's there. Mostly what I've done so far is buy a big unit of IG with blunderbusses to get my min core and either leave it at that, or pick up a couple ten man units of IG with fireglaves if the game is large enough. I don't personally feel I would be better off taking those points that I spent on buying BBs and using them to buy more basic IG.

Also, at least as of yet, the way things have gone...a unit comes toward my BB unit. I get a round or two to shoot, then I get to shoot once more due to stand and shoot. This either eliminates them completely, or those that do survive to get into melee are so decimated they don't have a leg to stand on in the fight. Granted, I don't have a lot of games in yet, and I'm sure there are things out there that can weather the fire (I'd love a heads up on any units to watch out for...). The unit is also nearish my warmachines...and so units that come in massacre a deathshriker are then left facing 20+ irate dwarves with guns...though the angles on this often get disadvantageous.

I don't mean to say BB are the shizat and anyone not using them is a dolt. But I will say they've done very well for me so far, and once I start coming up against something that seems to counter them, I'll try out something else.

To keep the rerolls, you need some ablative wounds. Say at least min 5, better 10.. you have to be 10 models wide, 11 when you have a hero in there so 20 models can shoot on the same time.. remember, when not 20 models shoot simultaneously, you get no reroll.. so you got to watch for beeing in 12" with all 20 modell. THe unit is pretty immobile, if combat breaks out it wont get serious ranks even with reformation.. The unit is totally point intensive.. and when you got a unit of 30 models, you need another unit to be placed in the watchtower.. but you down want to cross the min core point limit as well as there are other more shiny toys.. in the typical 2k game you gotta spend your whole core point + EXTRA points + need to have to buy a castellan (no steadfest with these few ranks...) to make that unit work.. total point grave.. even if I love them and use them pretty often, but looking at it at from a competative view..

shortlegs
17-01-2013, 12:00
hmm, Ill start by showing you my favorite list right now, i've used it only half a dozen times or so. I got tired of the war machine heavy lists because of war machine hunters and the like and now go with a conservative list. Also I was spoiled with ravening hordes war machine heavy lists and 8th edition rules making an extremely nasty army. after experiencing that with all its glory, I wasn't impressed by LoA Heavy warmachine lists. RH did it better.
Come on now, RH lists are generally broken if used in today's context.. ;)


anyhow, my favorite list right now includes a level 4 hashut wizard with 2+ AS, 4+ ward and chalice. BSB with dragon helm, blackhammer of hashut, shield and dawnstone. another castelan, with armour of bhazrakk the cruel. the deamonsmith is a level 2 metal wizard with dispel scroll and charm shield. a hobgoblin khan with light armour and shield and spear. one unit of 20 infernal guard with full command, one unit of 20 Infernal guard with full command and great weapons, one unit of 26 infernal guard with full command, flaming banner and blunderbuss. a deathshrieker rocket battery and a destroyer.

the list is unique to many common Loa lists right now because of the duel castelans 3 units of infernal guard and single warmachine. the reason for having 2 castelans is to have 2 units with stubborn.
Your army has several things that are considered good. The destroyer, chalice, cost-effective items like black hammer and the armour, death shrieker, they can all be brought in a warmachine heavy list too, so I will leave them out of any comparison. But in your list, it will be these stuff that does most of the heavy lifting I feel..

Your entire army basically consists of 3 small units of troops, 1 warmachine, 1 destroyer and characters. It really is way, way too small, one of the smallest 2500 points army I've seen. Units of 20-26 isn't going to last very long against most things. Stubborn or not, they will quickly be cut down to the last man. I really cannot see how such units can go up against other hard hitting or horde units at all. Too many points in characters and expensive upgrades like GW and blunderbusses on the IG, IMO.

I mean no offense, but I really do not understand how such an army can work.

Memnos
17-01-2013, 12:38
Come on now, RH lists are generally broken if used in today's context.. ;)


Your army has several things that are considered good. The destroyer, chalice, cost-effective items like black hammer and the armour, death shrieker, they can all be brought in a warmachine heavy list too, so I will leave them out of any comparison. But in your list, it will be these stuff that does most of the heavy lifting I feel..

Your entire army basically consists of 3 small units of troops, 1 warmachine, 1 destroyer and characters. It really is way, way too small, one of the smallest 2500 points army I've seen. Units of 20-26 isn't going to last very long against most things. Stubborn or not, they will quickly be cut down to the last man. I really cannot see how such units can go up against other hard hitting or horde units at all. Too many points in characters and expensive upgrades like GW and blunderbusses on the IG, IMO.

I mean no offense, but I really do not understand how such an army can work.

My guess? Black Hammer of Hashut with Ash to take down Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry, the Destroyer to play mop-up duties and the flaming Blunderbuss' to eliminate large units: Getting potentially 78 shots that reroll to wound with armour piercing is pretty spectacular.

If I were to guess, I'd say the large unit of Blunderbuss' is deployed centrally, usually, to force the maximum number of shots to be in range. It's probably flanked by the Destroyer, which is a 4+ ward save that can't get wounded on a 2 by most war machines.

The Destroyer is, really, the only truly unbalanced thing in the book. It's a Greater Daemon for half the cost. You have to deal with it as you would a Greater daemon.

FraustyTheSnowman
17-01-2013, 22:47
Nornghal...My units have been 11 wide since I found out characters had to be in the first rank, so I've still been getting the rerolls. All being within 12 is a good point, and I've had that problem come up before. Generally speaking the point of the unit is stand and shoot. My opponents either die charging me, are severely wounded charging me, or don't charge me. So far I haven't come up against a lot of magic that can hurt the squad (this is likely due partially to the armies I've fought and low number of games), and most ranged weapons seem to be s3 so not much of an issue against t4 3+. As of yet only thing I think I've had problems with are warmachines. This means my huge expensive unit is a whole bunch of victory points my opponent isn't going to earn easily.

As for the watchtower, that's a very good point. A lot of my group is still learning the game, so we've mostly been playing whoever gets more victory points wins, and I haven't given the missions the thought that I should. I'm away from my book right now, but if memory serves, you can have one unit in the watchtower, and ten models can fire from it per floor...so if I'm undestanding things right ten can fire on the ground floor, ten can fire on the second floor, and ten can fire from the paripat/top? We don't have the official GW watchtower, so maybe I'm just not remembering what it looks like right...If I'm completely off on all that, I'd likely throw a unit of ten fireglaves in the tower and lower my BB unit as necessary. Also, is there anything stopping me from putting a deathshrieker in the watchtower?

Da Crusha
17-01-2013, 23:17
Come on now, RH lists are generally broken if used in today's context.. ;)
they were weak though, no elites. They just had the beautiful earthshakers. O nevermind I have to forget about it. ;)


Your army has several things that are considered good. The destroyer, chalice, cost-effective items like black hammer and the armour, death shrieker, they can all be brought in a warmachine heavy list too, so I will leave them out of any comparison. But in your list, it will be these stuff that does most of the heavy lifting I feel..
Well, they have to be considered, you asked for a viable non heavy warmachine list.

Your entire army basically consists of 3 small units of troops, 1 warmachine, 1 destroyer and characters. It really is way, way too small, one of the smallest 2500 points army I've seen. Units of 20-26 isn't going to last very long against most things. Stubborn or not, they will quickly be cut down to the last man. I really cannot see how such units can go up against other hard hitting or horde units at all. Too many points in characters and expensive upgrades like GW and blunderbusses on the IG, IMO.

hmm, actually its not a small army for an LoA army, that's the thing. most people blow all the points on big war machines and only have 2 blocks of infantry. that would be a typical LoA list. you can see a ton of lists just like that at the chaos dwarf forum. Typically it’s the level 4 hashut, a low lvl wiz, a bsb, a hobgoblin khan on wolf, 2 blocks of infernal guard, a destroyer, and then anything else, usually war machines. Also, lets not forget infernal guard are nothing to scoff at, they are essentially black orcs with better armor and leadership.

recently I was thinking about dropping the great weapons and perhaps blunderbuss upgrades because, like you said they cost too much. that would free up some 156 + 60 = 216. going with the theory of the magma cannon being better I would buy one of those and be left with some 71 points. that is hardly enough to buy numbers. Id get 5 Infernal guard or 17 hobgoblins.



I mean no offense, but I really do not understand how such an army can work.
none taken, this is a good discussion.

shortlegs
18-01-2013, 19:08
hmm, actually its not a small army for an LoA army, that's the thing. most people blow all the points on big war machines and only have 2 blocks of infantry. that would be a typical LoA list. you can see a ton of lists just like that at the chaos dwarf forum. Typically it’s the level 4 hashut, a low lvl wiz, a bsb, a hobgoblin khan on wolf, 2 blocks of infernal guard, a destroyer, and then anything else, usually war machines. Also, lets not forget infernal guard are nothing to scoff at, they are essentially black orcs with better armor and leadership.
Yes most LoA lists are really small, but the warmachines they pack are there to balance the equation.

An equal pointage of warmachines will almost always, barring bad luck, kill more than an equal pointage of IG, especially when your IG units are just 20 strong. IG are good troops stats and rules-wise, no doubt, but they are simply over-costed.

If I were to play CD, I'll first consider dropping the level 4 (oh the heresy!) He costs a huge amount of points that could be used to finance another medium sized block, more daemonsmiths (which to me are a great buy), or more warmachines. With the new 8th edition books removing abilities to generate huge amounts of power dice, the lack of a level 4 may not hurt as much once the offenders like DE, HE, LM and skaven gets a new book..

Food for thought..

Norngahl
19-01-2013, 01:24
Nornghal...My units have been 11 wide since I found out characters had to be in the first rank, so I've still been getting the rerolls. All being within 12 is a good point, and I've had that problem come up before. Generally speaking the point of the unit is stand and shoot. My opponents either die charging me, are severely wounded charging me, or don't charge me. So far I haven't come up against a lot of magic that can hurt the squad (this is likely due partially to the armies I've fought and low number of games), and most ranged weapons seem to be s3 so not much of an issue against t4 3+. As of yet only thing I think I've had problems with are warmachines. This means my huge expensive unit is a whole bunch of victory points my opponent isn't going to earn easily.

As for the watchtower, that's a very good point. A lot of my group is still learning the game, so we've mostly been playing whoever gets more victory points wins, and I haven't given the missions the thought that I should. I'm away from my book right now, but if memory serves, you can have one unit in the watchtower, and ten models can fire from it per floor...so if I'm undestanding things right ten can fire on the ground floor, ten can fire on the second floor, and ten can fire from the paripat/top? We don't have the official GW watchtower, so maybe I'm just not remembering what it looks like right...If I'm completely off on all that, I'd likely throw a unit of ten fireglaves in the tower and lower my BB unit as necessary. Also, is there anything stopping me from putting a deathshrieker in the watchtower?

Biggest problem with 11 wide 30+ men units that its only a real "stand and shoot" unit. You put it in the centre and wait for the enemy to come in range. Sure, if the enemy does and isn't heavily armored, you will propably wipe him off the board pretty easy. In this case I do not doubt the strength of the unit. But once your enemy goes for a or both flanks, you will have fun with reforming the unit with 3" moving dwarves.. you will also leave your WM pretty much in the open, as you put this block in front of them.. But movement is just one thing.
Face a fairly armored enemy (chaos, bretonia) and your guns become less effective as you might think. Even if they kill some enemies, the rest of the enemy unit will propably hold them up for the rest of the game, as their AS lend to a long time grinddown on both units without the true chance to wipe the enemy off without external help, not nice with a 600 point unit + BSB.. But the biggest point is- there are armys that easily outgun you, in cases of raw firepower and, and that is the bigger part, RANGE. Ever fighting a dwarf with a shooty CD list? Not funny when you spent 600 points on a unit that has to march 3 rounds to actually get in range of fire.. while this you soaked 3 rounds of dwarf shooting damage. This applies to the Imperium as well. Thing is- you want an all comers armylist, and blunderbusses doesn't fit this role pretty good. Also think about ogres.. ogre cavalry might only leave you 2 rounds of shooting, if you are unlucky, it's just stand and shoot when they get some nice rolls, same goes for bretonia. DE just send their peggi heroes in to block you out.. a noble dark elf BSB with cloak of hag graef and dawnstone and 1+ AS is something impossible to gun down. He just has to flank charge to hold you up for a round or two until the hydras charge in, or the obvious dark elf lord with 1+ AS, pendant and crown. Don't forget about purple sun/pit of shades from the nicer mages and your unit will suffer heavy losses as well. Sure, this applies to HW/S infernal guard as well, but they don't cost as much. Or think about +3 T or regeneration spells or spells that hit every model in the unit.. the first make your guns only causing few losses, the last hits hard on 18 points models.. Also, Ehterals that block their shooting or hard flying units likr vargheists (2 of course, as you can only S&S once) will block the unit out long enough to make the main army arrive..
As you see, most of the armies can easily counter a big BB unit. As well if they reduce just their numbers to 19, that removes much of the units punch. When you have a 30+ unit, having the possibility to fire 2 rounds and then S&S, while the enemy has a armor of 4+ or worse and a T lower or equal of 4, BB will cause harvoc. But really, a smart player can easily handle them and some armies naturally have a strengh due to their army composition to rely either on speed/armor/shooting/magic neutralize the BB short range shooting strengh.. While it is awesome to see this unit work.. there are too much ifs to make them work.

Watchtower is 20 Models core models only. And you don't want a 20 BB unit as one loss means they lost much of their punch. Heck I wouldnt even take 20 HW/S IG, as I think they are not durable enough. There should be at least 25.

And 10 Fireglaives.. better take 20 gobs, they profit from beeing stubborn, with genereal in range they have LD10 stubborn, and 20 bodies is hard to remove via shooting/magic in 1-2 turns. When the main CD army arrived, gob rests go out and an other unit takes the tower. As well, gobs do look great and let some classic CD feeling come up. AND you have a nice 1 turn flank protection or sacrificial unit or way blocker.

See, I don't want to make BB bad as they are a nice choice.. they are just not worth their points, and as CD have many cost intensive units, you have to think rational about what
a) works against all opponents
b) saves you some points to get more flesh onto the field
c) lowers the value of the unit to avoid giving too much points to the enemy when the unit got killed with uber spells or concentrated fire.

Never have a unit that costs more than 350 points. That is beside the Sorcerer Prophet, of course. Rather look to keep units cheap, while cheap means still around 300-350 points per usefull CD unit beside the hobgoblin units. I speak of 25 IG with HW/S, 6x Bull Centaures with GW, a Destroyer or such. Threat WM the same way. All WM shouldnt cost more then 350 points all together.. Otherwise you will get problems when one element is lost (WM gunned down by cannons or eaten by good WM hunters). What I want to say- avoid putting all eggs into one basket when playing CD. They don't work this way.

GrandmasterWang
23-01-2013, 02:46
at 2500 pts I have run 40 bb s with 2 castellans a couple of times. while they don't dish the pain like wm do they are much... much harder to get the pts off. they fill all the core pts and often the opp is so scared they don't even engage it. thus far this unit has given up 0 vps in about 4 games.

Kalandros
23-01-2013, 07:23
Master of points denial

corps
23-01-2013, 20:43
what is " master of denial"?

what allies would be best for the chaos dwarf?

chaos of course but bestmen, deamons, are also viable. strangely i also like the idea of goblins but not skavens. what allies would you choose?