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Grocklock
11-01-2013, 13:34
I've been thinking about the fall of the imperium, and the way the fluff is focused on there slow demise.

But what if chaos had won, and the main story was about the imperium trying to reclaim there lost worlds.

Just an idea. What u think

Menthak
11-01-2013, 14:09
From my perspective Chaos is a flame fueled by the Imperium, should the Imperium die, then so shall chaos (Except Malal, who will be laughing like the Mad Hatter watching kittens falling over).

Jack of Blades
11-01-2013, 14:20
Chaos worlds can't really be reclaimed properly. That's why the Imperium nukes worlds that are about to be lost to Chaos after they no longer see even the most far-fetched, slightest hint that the war could be turned and the planet saved instead. It's the same with any enemy that permanently destroys worlds like Tyranids. So the Imperium retaking worlds lost to Chaos would need some new explanation for why that's possible and it'd also have to be explained how the Imperium can at all remain politically without the Astronomicon, rather than countless isolated worlds and systems.

Menthak
11-01-2013, 18:08
Chaos worlds can't really be reclaimed properly. That's why the Imperium nukes worlds that are about to be lost to Chaos after they no longer see even the most far-fetched, slightest hint that the war could be turned and the planet saved instead. It's the same with any enemy that permanently destroys worlds like Tyranids. So the Imperium retaking worlds lost to Chaos would need some new explanation for why that's possible and it'd also have to be explained how the Imperium can at all remain politically without the Astronomicon, rather than countless isolated worlds and systems.

Although I generally agree, I feel obligated to point out Gereon?

MarshalFaust
11-01-2013, 18:09
Chaos did win. The big four doomed the Imperium to eternal warfare. they are laughing as the glut themselves on the anguish of billions of souls each year. Its hinted in Legion that the cabal see two basic outcomes to the heresy where Horus wins and within a few short years extinguishes humanity from the galaxy effectively dooming the Chaos gods to starve or the Imperium wins and stagnates in a crippled state over the millenium providing sustenance for the chaos gods. This is also how the Alpha legion justified to themselves for joining Horus' Rebellion. They were playing a long con and working towards to ultimate goal of killing off chaos once and for all. When you look at it from the perspective of the chaos gods things could not have played out any better for them. Horus was only one piece on heir chess board and sometimes its worth it to sacrifice your queen if it allows you to take the opponents king.

Veteran Sergeant
11-01-2013, 19:09
It's why Abaddon perpetually fails.

The Chaos Gods have no incentive to see an endgame, lol.

omgadinosaur
11-01-2013, 20:13
Then the Kroots would rule the universe

TheDungen
12-01-2013, 00:50
chaos cant win per se, if they did they would cease to exist. Chaos is by its very nature self destructive, that's where Malice draws his power from, the paradoxes within chaos that causes chaos to destroy itself.

You cant think of the chaos gods as people, they're gestalt beings formed from thousands of similar emotions stacking together in the warp.

take khorne for an example, he is the most powerful chaos god but if all mankind suffered from a single moment of peace and serenity at the same time he would cease to exist.


chaos has no final goal, sure their life would propably be easier without the imperium, but then again if the imperium didnt exist then mankind would be wiped out by aliens which wouldnt contribute (much) to the chaos gods and once again poof.

Bonzai
12-01-2013, 04:26
I agree with many of the others here. Chaos doesn't want to win. They gain far more from the endless struggle, than they ever would from victory.

Lothlanathorian
12-01-2013, 05:30
It's why Abaddon perpetually fails.

The Chaos Gods have no incentive to see an endgame, lol.

While I agree with your second point, your initial statement has been refuted repeatedly. Abaddon perpetually achieves his goals.

Lucifer216
12-01-2013, 11:53
Gereon is a good example of how unless a chaos-occupied world is retaken quickly, it soon becomes relatively worthless to the Imperium, due to wastage of its population and the siphoning of natural resources via xenos-sourced crops and daemonic/occult devices that allow water/fossil fuels/ore deposits to be teleported to worlds deeper within Chaos-held territory.

While I agree that the current state of affairs is overall a great position for chaos, I've always thought that Slaanesh and Tzeentch are capable of sustainably farming in the absence of conflict. We've seen cultures that worship either god exclusively (Daemonworld for Slaanesh and Q'sal in Black Crusade for Tzeentch). In comparison, Nurgle's unstable power (it waxes and wanes as his plagues often burn themselves out) and while we have seen a Khornate daemonworld in Hammer of Daemons, I think that was only sustained by sourcing large numbers of slaves from off- world.

To put it another way, I think Slaanesh and Tzeentch are far more compatible with civilization than Khorne and Nurgle.

HBT
12-01-2013, 12:07
Although I generally agree, I feel obligated to point out Gereon?

I think that Gereon was retaken from Chaos for an entirely different reason.

The Inquisition believed that Gaunt and his unit survived because the fauna on the planet contained a chemical which made them immune to the effects of Chaos. Prior to this, Gereon was a lost cause.

Wyrmwood
12-01-2013, 12:14
The Inquisition believed that Gaunt and his unit survived because the fauna on the planet contained a chemical which made them immune to the effects of Chaos. Prior to this, Gereon was a lost cause.
:wtf: I think that requires some explanation.

HBT
12-01-2013, 12:21
:wtf: I think that requires some explanation.

The Armour of Contempt, (pages 710-712 of the omnibus The Lost,) explains why the Inquisition decided to divert the Crusade to Gereon.

It is also, I think, why that particular book is called The Armour of Contempt.

nedius
12-01-2013, 12:34
Chaos did win.

MarshalFaust got it.

Chaos wanted to create the universe as it is now - and in doing so, they ensured their future. A Horus victory would not have achieved that. An Emperor victory wouldn't have achieved that. The true winners of the Heresy were the Chaos gods.

Interestingly, that implies that whatever the Emperor was up to, trying to achive, could have defeated them...

HBT
12-01-2013, 12:56
MarshalFaust got it.

Chaos wanted to create the universe as it is now - and in doing so, they ensured their future. A Horus victory would not have achieved that. An Emperor victory wouldn't have achieved that. The true winners of the Heresy were the Chaos gods.

Interestingly, that implies that whatever the Emperor was up to, trying to achive, could have defeated them...

I think you're right.

If the Emperor had completed his webway project, there would been no need to use the warp to travel between systems. The warp gods would have been trapped.

Lucifer216
12-01-2013, 14:47
Whoops double post.

Griefbringer
12-01-2013, 15:06
But what if chaos had won, and the main story was about the imperium trying to reclaim there lost worlds.


What do you mean by "chaos victory"? Had Horus been succesful, there would not be an Imperium as we know now. Emperor would have been killed, loyalist opposition crushed, Horus would have declared himself the new ruler of the Imperium and inducted its citizens to large-scale chaos worship. How united such chaos-worshipping Imperium would have been is another matter, since the followers of chaos tend to be prone to factionalism. It would take the iron hand of Horus to hold them together, and eventually something would have probably happened to him - either violent death in the hands of rebellious followers, or ascension to daemonhood.

As for the chaos gods (rather than their mortal followers), the eternal conflict of the long war is not exactly a bad thing - it helps to fuel them.

flota
12-01-2013, 15:37
I dont believe the cabal, after all in daemon worlds there are still humans living there

Sent from Holy Terra

Istlod
12-01-2013, 16:29
Why are people under the idea that if humanity dies, Chaos dies? There are other sentient races in the universe that give the gods their power.

HBT
12-01-2013, 16:45
Why are people under the idea that if humanity dies, Chaos dies? There are other sentient races in the universe that give the gods their power.

Maybe because...

That's pretty much what the Cabal showed to Alpharius and Omegon in the book Legion?

Istlod
12-01-2013, 17:05
Maybe because...

That's pretty much what the Cabal showed to Alpharius and Omegon in the book Legion?

It makes no sense, in this continuity, Slaanesh is explicitly birthed through the actions of the Eldar. That alone proves that to be false.

HBT
12-01-2013, 17:12
It makes no sense, in this continuity, Slaanesh is explicitly birthed through the actions of the Eldar. That alone proves that to be false.

Slaanesh may have been born through the actions of the Eldar; but it is humanity who provide the greater number of souls. There simply aren't enough Eldar left to feed Slaanesh's hunger.

If you forget about humanity and look at the other races we know of in the 40k universe, only the orks have a large enough base to feed the Chaos gods; and they're probably unpalatable.

Griefbringer
12-01-2013, 17:40
In the old times, Orks used to have some Khorne worshipping renegade stormboyz, though these were somewhat frowned by the mainstream orc society.

As for Eldar and Slaanesh, the stricter lifestyle of the craftworld Eldar probably provides less power to him than the more debauched pre-fall Eldar society would have done. Never mind the numbers.

naughtyGod
12-01-2013, 18:28
not really that many any more. great crusade ring any bells? the galaxy was pretty purged. tyranids and necrons certainly dont count as god worshippers.

Haskear
12-01-2013, 20:13
The grim dark 41st millennium definitely produces lots of anguish, envy, terror and hatred. In my opinion Chaos never had it so good!

I do however think there must be some positive emotions, so where are those deities?

On a separate note I'm enjoying people's inclusion of Malice/Malal. On a different thread I was berated for saying he was my preferred chaos god! I was told Malal should not be spoken about as the gw's ownership was in question!

TheDungen
12-01-2013, 21:32
slaanesh is sitting on the common ground, where human and eldar emotions are similar, but in most things the eldar are alien incomrehensible to humans the only way to fully understand an eldar is teh be an eldar, the same goes the other way of course. that is why chaos would be weakened of even destroyed if humanity was, becuase while they would be able tofeed of similiar emtions of aliens those emotions would create gods that suited them better who would devour the first chaos god. My guess is that there was human counterpart to slaanesh (unawakened of course) before the fall but he was close enough so slaanesh simply assimilated him/her.
'

i dont agree that chaos did win but they didn't do to badly either, they got their main concern out of the way, the secondary concern (that humanity is still evolving to the point where chaos will still cease to be) is still a concern of course.

Chaos is full well capable of ruling rather than destroying, martial cultures with gladitorial combat and martial pride for khorne. civilisations close the the pre fall eldar for slaanesh. planets close to barbarus (the death guard homeworld) for nurgle (oppressed people living in despair ruled over by dark immortal overlords who from time to time raid into the valley to cause fear and despair) and tzeentch is fine as long as progress is possible. and scheming.

Menthak
12-01-2013, 22:47
The grim dark 41st millennium definitely produces lots of anguish, envy, terror and hatred. In my opinion Chaos never had it so good!

I do however think there must be some positive emotions, so where are those deities?

On a separate note I'm enjoying people's inclusion of Malice/Malal. On a different thread I was berated for saying he was my preferred chaos god! I was told Malal should not be spoken about as the gw's ownership was in question!

As for positive emotions, the debate is out on that, there is or was nothing to suggest that Chaos was 'evil' Just extreme. Also in the old fluff (not sure if it's so true now) the Chaos gods had a 'good' side, for example, Khorne was honourable "Khorne is said to have inherited a martial nobility and honour, and considers the weak and helpless to be unworthy of his wrath." (From lexicanum) and I remember seeing something about him being something with Technology, but I might be wrong.

Malal was used by GW but it belonged to someone else and they had to stop using it, instead replacing him with 'Malice' in our games and Dark Heresy/Dark Crusade sessions we still use Malal though, just don't mention it just GW and things will be rosy.

In my opinion, positive emotions do inspire deities within the warp, but it's hard to be the god of happiness when the god of skulls and brutal murder is drinking the galaxy of oppression and war through a straw.

DarthMcBob
12-01-2013, 22:54
Gereon is a good example of how unless a chaos-occupied world is retaken quickly, it soon becomes relatively worthless to the Imperium, due to wastage of its population and the siphoning of natural resources via xenos-sourced crops and daemonic/occult devices that allow water/fossil fuels/ore deposits to be teleported to worlds deeper within Chaos-held territory.

While I agree that the current state of affairs is overall a great position for chaos, I've always thought that Slaanesh and Tzeentch are capable of sustainably farming in the absence of conflict. We've seen cultures that worship either god exclusively (Daemonworld for Slaanesh and Q'sal in Black Crusade for Tzeentch). In comparison, Nurgle's unstable power (it waxes and wanes as his plagues often burn themselves out) and while we have seen a Khornate daemonworld in Hammer of Daemons, I think that was only sustained by sourcing large numbers of slaves from off- world.

To put it another way, I think Slaanesh and Tzeentch are far more compatible with civilization than Khorne and Nurgle.

In Black Crusade, Tome of Blood, we see the War Moons of Tallax, a Khorne-worshipping society that nonetheless remains productive and relatively organized, albeit very combative. Khorne is, after all, more than a mindless berzerker. Those Blood Slaughterers and Brass Scorpions don't just build themselves, you know.

The same book notes that even if half of the races in the universe embraced total peace and harmony, Khorne would still exist (albeit in a weakened state).

TheDungen
13-01-2013, 14:14
i'd say its feedback. human emotion created lets say khorne, khorne is now a god of rage connected to all humans (well nearly) he is now feedign that emotion back into the humans.

the truth is khorne doesnt exist, the fact is that all humans (again nearly) have some psychic potential, what they are really feeling is the emotions of their entire species bleeding over into them.

its like when you're out doing the last Christmas shopping. everyone's running around stressed and sweaty, now in our reality that's only pheromones but you can feel their stress affecting you, you become stressed since you react to the stress around you.

The chaos gods are the same thing but galaxy wide.

the reason there are so few positive emotions is that the chaos gods are at all times weighing down the souls of mankind.

carlisimo
15-01-2013, 21:52
I was under the impression that if humans didn’t die out, but worshipped Chaos in greater numbers, the Chaos gods would only be stronger than they are. Just as the Eye of Terror is currently their playground, they’d have more planets to play with, and potentially the whole galaxy would slide into the Warp. In other words, there IS such a thing as Chaos winning.

But a declining empire sounds more like something a British games company would make. Maybe if GW had been American it would’ve been as the original poster described.

Malagor
16-01-2013, 07:25
Slaanesh may have been born through the actions of the Eldar; but it is humanity who provide the greater number of souls. There simply aren't enough Eldar left to feed Slaanesh's hunger.

And don't forget that with the infinity engine, the Eldar are denying Slaanesh their souls when they die. Add this with their paths and they avoid feeding the other gods as well(or atleast trying to).

Avitus
16-01-2013, 22:22
Chaos has won (wink,wink)...IoM is fueling CG 10x more then in pre-heresy/heresy...

Sotek
16-01-2013, 22:46
We'd have ; Codex:World Eaters, Codex:Thousand Sons, Codex:Deathguard, Codex:Emperors Children, Codex:Wordbearers, Codex:Night Lords & Codex:Iron Warriors and then Codex: Marine Legions which would cover loyalists and Alpha Legion instead of Codex: BA, BT, SW, DA, GK & Vanilla that we have now!

Jack of Blades
20-01-2013, 03:11
I do however think there must be some positive emotions, so where are those deities?

Part of 40k's grimdark to me is that the positive emotions are encapsulated within the Great Four. It just makes things fittingly horrible on a cosmic scale.

The Red Pilgrim
20-01-2013, 18:47
But what if chaos had won

Chaos did win.. :shifty:

Lord Squidar
20-01-2013, 22:02
I really like the idea that the chaos gods are playing the long game and keeping the Imperium stagnant and corrupt to feed off it slowly as opposed to gorging themselves ala Eldar Empire and slaanesh.

it does bring into light though that two recent threats, namely the Necrons and Tau, might be giving the chaos gods some sleepless nights, since both want to eradicate humanity and the Necrons have daemon trapping tech. maybe if the chaos gods turn towards the new threats it gives the Imperium one last gasp before the end. me likey.

HBT
21-01-2013, 08:43
chaos cant win per se, if they did they would cease to exist. Chaos is by its very nature self destructive, that's where Malice draws his power from, the paradoxes within chaos that causes chaos to destroy itself.

You cant think of the chaos gods as people, they're gestalt beings formed from thousands of similar emotions stacking together in the warp.

take khorne for an example, he is the most powerful chaos god but if all mankind suffered from a single moment of peace and serenity at the same time he would cease to exist.


chaos has no final goal, sure their life would propably be easier without the imperium, but then again if the imperium didnt exist then mankind would be wiped out by aliens which wouldnt contribute (much) to the chaos gods and once again poof.

I just had a thought about this and you're right.

In Ravenor Rogue, Molotoch and Culzean try and get Ravenor to join forces with them to defeat the daemon Slyte. Their reasoning is that if Slyte is unleashed on the galaxy then everything is lost, including Chaos' ability to grow on humanity.

Adramalech
22-01-2013, 07:19
Emotions sustain them like the milk of a mother sustains an infant, but it is strife and death in their names that makes them strong, just as a king is strengthened by the love of his people. Without Human worshippers to fight, debase themselves and die in the names of the chaos gods, the Gods would not have the influence and power they have "now." Without an enemy like the imperium, those worshippers could not fight and debase themselves as they do, nor would they be able to so easily recruit more heretics to the cause.


In the old times, Orks used to have some Khorne worshipping renegade stormboyz, though these were somewhat frowned by the mainstream orc society.

As for Eldar and Slaanesh, the stricter lifestyle of the craftworld Eldar probably provides less power to him than the more debauched pre-fall Eldar society would have done. Never mind the numbers.

Slaanesh feeding on the Eldar didn't stop with the Fall; He gets a steady stream of soulstuff from the Dark City.

TheDungen
22-01-2013, 20:40
the chaos gods don't work like that they don't have goals. this wasn't their goal but it works fine and the chaos gods go along with it. their goals can either be seen as extremely short time or extremely long term. The gods may find it interesting to watch the physical universe for while but mostly they don't care. individual daemons may get involved but that is beneath the gods of chaos.

its possible that even the rewarding of champions is something that is done though intermediaries (greater daemons). it has been said that the chaos gods may have access to other universes and deal with them as much as they do with the Warhammer 40k universe, its possible that even if the emperor's plan had worked that it wouldn't had destroyed the chaos gods just broken their link to this universe.

Anima
23-01-2013, 12:11
Well in order for Chaos to have won the Emperor would need to be dead. If the Emperor dies then there's nobody around to protect mankind which means, according to the daemon codex and the 6e rulebook, Chaos would then freely flood out of every human and the entire galaxy would be dragged into the Realm of Chaos where space, time and matter would cease to exist.

TheDungen
23-01-2013, 23:40
that's what happen when they let ward mess with the codices. I prefer chaos before he turned the chaos gods to regular super villains.

Anima
25-01-2013, 11:47
I don't think Ward wrote the Daemons Codex. :p

TheDungen
25-01-2013, 16:48
he didn't? well he wrote the warhammer daemons book and that was released before the codex daemons right? so he started it.

Anima
26-01-2013, 01:06
I think that both the daemons codex and the daemons army book were a simultaneous release, and I don't think there's much about the Emperor or Chaos bursting out of all the human skulls in Fantasy :D.