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View Full Version : Empire vs Skaven Hors - advice to beat these Rats please



Montroux
13-01-2013, 13:45
Hi,

I am due to face this nonsense this coming week:

Greyseer, bsb, warlock engineer
20 skaven, ratling gun
20 clanrats, ratling gun
20 clanrats, warpfire thrower
40 clanrats, screaming bell, warpfire thrower
60 slaves
60 slaves
2 hellpit abominations
11 jezzails


My normal List s as follows:

Arch Lector, heavy armour, charmed shield, talisman preservation, War Altar
Wizard Lord, level 4, Dragonbane gem, dispel scroll (hides out on archer bunker, ala Griffon style)
Warrior Priest (halberdiers), Heavy, shield, dragonhelm, van horstmanís speculum
Captain, BSB (halberdiers), Full plate, enchanted shield, crown of command
Captain (IC knights), Full plate, shield, barded warhorse, lance, white cloak of ulric?
38x Halberdiers, full command
7x archer detachment
7x archer detachment
9x Inner Circle Knights, full command, Gleaming Pennant
10x Archers, standard bearer
4x Demi Gryphs, full command, Banner of Discipline
1x Cannon
1x HBVG
1x Luminark of Hysh
1x Steam Tank


Any suggestions/tactical advice/etc?

MR. GRUMPY
13-01-2013, 16:32
Refuse to play him. :shifty:

liddan
13-01-2013, 17:56
Flip the table over and call him cheesy!

martijn
13-01-2013, 18:43
It's not really cool to field two abominations in what looks like about 2000 points. As to what to do against an abomination/dominated army is take at least something that can do flaming damage, a fire wizzard for example. 11 jezzails is also pushing it somewhat.... good luck!

Tuttivillus
13-01-2013, 20:31
Sorry double post :/

Tuttivillus
13-01-2013, 20:40
Well, first of: Put a flaming banner on demis and push them on aboms. They should fare well. Mine do. :D
He has more combat units than You. Drop one archer detechment and build up solid combat detachment. Swordsmen would be best.
Weapon teams. Cheapest and best version of HLR is now available to Your STank.
Go crazy: change hellblaster for hellstorm rockets. With that amount of rats is really hard to miss;)
You dont need that WPriest in halberdier unit, You have WAltar allready. Buy him armoured horse and put him into knight unit. They will do far better with him.
What magic Lore have You been thinking? Heavens would do some good against that list. Especially when You think of those jazzails. But maybe You have that solved :)

Shidensen
14-01-2013, 04:10
I agree with Tuttivillus' advice: the flaming banner on the Demigryphs, dropping an archer detachment and putting the warrior priest in the knights are good ideas. You also don't need that captain in the knights either. Plus the White Cloak won't do anything against the HPAs, and the rats don't have very high WS.

I'd take out the standard bearer off the archers, it's unnecessary. If you have points I'd bump up that Halberdier horde to 50. If this Skaven player is anything like my friend, he'll have a doomrocket and use it on your horde.

The Helblaster can put a dent in those units but it'd work better with an Engineer or perhaps a Fire Wizard to give it Flaming Sword of Rhuin (a spell which can make just about anything good at wounding those HPA's, and if not at them it'll ensure your Helblaster kills a lot of rats). Either way, a big fireball on a HPA will scare your opponent into using dispel dice.

Whenever I play Skaven it's always the Grey Seer, HPA and Doomrocket that give me the most trouble. If you can neutralize his monsters with fire spells (or knights with flaming attacks) that only leaves Clanrats and Slaves to contend in combat with, which aren't hard at all. His battle line is going to be packed with all of those infantry groups, and if you can get some out of his Grey Seer's leadership bubble (by making them move around buildings, other terrain, etc) they'll run much easier.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2013, 07:33
The only really dangerous units are the two HPA's and the Warpfire Throwers. The latter spell doom for infantry, the former for everything. Other than that it looks like a friendly list: Units of 20 are very easy to defeat and cannot expect to stay steadfast for long. Ratling Guns can attrite infantry and threaten single characters but are otherwise not that good, and Jezzails are pretty meh despite their decent strength because they need to hit. It also looks as if he hasn't got a Stormbanner, which allows you to field shooting at your leisure. Lastly, 60 Slaves are a great tarpit but not a threat as such (unless they gain death frenzy and are fielded as a horde).

Everything needs babysitting by characters, and he doesn't have a Bell, which means a 12" bubble. Kill even one character, strip ranks and you will make them run.

You already have flaming attacks in the form of the Waltar's and the Lumi's bound spell, so adding the BotEF somewhere should suffice. I'd say Lore of Shadow, Heavens or Life, and a Powerstone for some much needed PD. Van Horstman's is completely useless 90 % of the time, drop it. Archers won't do anything except baiting but you cannot bait the HPA's. Use them against weapon teams or drop some. If you can get another combat unit in there, even just a weak detachment, that would be good. Swordsmen *can* defeat 20 Clanrats and hold up 60 Slaves for quite some time. The Stank is pretty nifty to thin out units and threaten one HPA. Remember that Knights go after it, it's unlikely that they stand a chance. Demis do, but don't expect to have a unit afterwards.

Lance Tankmen
14-01-2013, 07:46
Everything needs babysitting by characters, and he doesn't have a Bell, which means a 12" bubble. Kill even one character, strip ranks and you will make them run.

the unit of 40 has the bell btw.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2013, 15:14
Ah, true, didn't see that.

dementian
14-01-2013, 15:26
Dwellers Below or Death Spells to kill his General. Get some flaming attacks for the HPA and its pretty much gg. Hit the bell with a Death Snipe on its Ld or hit it with pit or psun and its bye bye.

Montroux
14-01-2013, 21:37
Thanks for the comments and suggestions so far.

Will look at the losted options and hopefully Wednesday night is good luck for the Empire

Cheers

BlackPawl
15-01-2013, 08:37
Dwellers Below or Death Spells to kill his General. Get some flaming attacks for the HPA and its pretty much gg. Hit the bell with a Death Snipe on its Ld or hit it with pit or psun and its bye bye.

Against Dweller the Grey Seer has S5 (because of the rat ogre (combined model)), against death spells he has a 2+ ward (4++ and MR2), against purple sun he has Ini 5. So no good chance to kill a Grey Seer on bell with spells.

But cannons do a good job against a Grey Seer on bell!

Lord Solar Plexus
15-01-2013, 09:40
BlackPawl hit the nail on the head - some spells might work but not the ones mentioned above. It's probably easier to kill the unit around the Bell than the model itself with magic.

Dante blackfur
15-01-2013, 16:27
Refuse to play him. :shifty:

(Google) +1 :yes:

lol I play Skaven and even i think his list is way to Cheesy unless your in a Die hard no comp tournament. :p

Lord Solar Plexus
16-01-2013, 08:05
Really? I'd say that is just another standard list. Okay, two Aboms, but neither Jezzails nor Ratling Guns nor 20-strong Clanrats are very dangerous, no WLC's, no Plaguemonks, no Gutter Runners...unless I've missed them too...and whether you see one Abom + DW instead of two HPA's isn't really a huge drop in efficiency.

BlackPawl
16-01-2013, 09:04
Really? I'd say that is just another standard list. Okay, two Aboms, but neither Jezzails nor Ratling Guns nor 20-strong Clanrats are very dangerous, no WLC's, no Plaguemonks, no Gutter Runners...unless I've missed them too...and whether you see one Abom + DW instead of two HPA's isn't really a huge drop in efficiency.

I have the same opinion. It's not a min/max list. Two HPAs are good, but can not win the battle alone - especially now as there are many ways to stop a HPA (Luminark, Fire wizard, fire ring, Banner of eternal flame (with DG) etc.), the other can be blocked / killed with the steam tank.
So other than magic and the WFT there is no real danger in this list. The clanrats can do nothing alone and you need just one good magic missile to panic the jezzails (ld5 or max. ld 7 with general).
The general on bell will be a good target for cannons.

boli
16-01-2013, 11:16
tbh a couple of cannons, flaming attacks and a hero on a Pegasus/griffon will cause havoc in this army; outside the HPAs the units are too small or too ineffective.