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Theocracity
15-01-2013, 13:44
While pondering the themes of the five variant Space Marine codices that have been published, a random brainwave struck me - there's a way you can link each of them to the Kubler-Ross model, otherwise known as the Five Stages of Grief. This model is usually used for the emotional states that people go through when dealing with unavoidable trauma, like a terminal illness, but in this case the 'grief' being dealt with is the death of the Emperor and the slow collapse of the Imperium. Obviously Space Marines don't actually feel sadness ;).

I'm only dealing with the published variant lists here, and as its a random thought it might not connect exactly - it is only a model after all. It also excludes Grey Knights because I forgot about them until I just wrote this sentence.

Denial: Dark Angels. They won't admit their own role in the Heresy, and shut down any attempts to reconcile their past (or indeed anything about themselves at all).

Anger: Black Templars. Intolerant of anything even sort of resembling their old foes, they have never stopped moving and destroying things.

Bargaining: This one sounds strange in this context, but it basically means doing anything to delay the inevitable. With that in mind I think this fits the Ultramarines. Maybe if they just follow the Codex Astartes, things will be alright and the Imperium won't actually fall apart.

Depression: Blood Angels. They're emotionally stuck on the death of their Primarch to the point where visions of him can overwhelm them and turn them suicidal.

Acceptance: Space Wolves. They're the only chapter that doesn't seem to be hung up on the events of the Heresy somehow. They just do what they've always done - make epic sagas for themselves and have a fun time of it.

Thoughts?

LokkoRex
15-01-2013, 13:47
gods-dammit, why haven't anybody else thought of this?!!

very cool, makes the space wolves a bit more awesome.

nagash66
15-01-2013, 13:55
Well done a most amusing post something which has become a rarity of late.

librerian_samae
15-01-2013, 14:32
Very nice original thinking there, even if that's not what's going on it fits rather nicely

dean
15-01-2013, 14:33
We are NOT in Denial!


:p

Griefbringer
15-01-2013, 15:01
As for Space Wolves, they still go questing after their Primarch every now and then. Does that really count as acceptance?

That said, they also have the consolidation that Russ has told them that one day he will return.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-01-2013, 15:51
But it's more a hobby or maybe a summer vacation thing rather than the overriding factor of their existence as it is with most of the others.

insectum7
15-01-2013, 16:54
That would seem to indicate the Wolves not minding the idea that the Imperium is falling apart, which doesn't really sit right.

I'm not sure how the UM would be hung up on the Heresy either. They were probably the quickest to accept the situation IMO.

I couldn't flip the two though, it's not like the Space Wolves are bargaining.

Theocracity
15-01-2013, 17:53
Well, there are certainly shades of each stage in the various chapters. I'm mostly focusing on the dominant themes of each though.

A Space Wolf will still fight for the Imperium, just like a dying person who has emotionally accepted their fate will still take drugs. But when it's the end of the world and the Imperium is collapsing underneath their feet, an Ultramarine will fight to preserve any scrap of human civilization as it was - bargaining that he can hold on to the past if he tries hard enough. A Space Wolf will fight because it's the Ragnarok, the end of all sagas, and he wants to make his part of it legendary regardless of who's left to tell the tale.

insectum7
15-01-2013, 18:53
Well, there are certainly shades of each stage in the various chapters. I'm mostly focusing on the dominant themes of each though.

A Space Wolf will still fight for the Imperium, just like a dying person who has emotionally accepted their fate will still take drugs. But when it's the end of the world and the Imperium is collapsing underneath their feet, an Ultramarine will fight to preserve any scrap of human civilization as it was - bargaining that he can hold on to the past if he tries hard enough. A Space Wolf will fight because it's the Ragnarok, the end of all sagas, and he wants to make his part of it legendary regardless of who's left to tell the tale.

Or you could flip it and say that the Wolves are still fighting for the glory days of old, while the Ultramarines have accepted the need to adapt to a newer paradigm, (defensive posture of chapters rather than the aggressive legions).

I'm not actually sure that Ultramar represents the Emperors vision for humanity, so I don't think it's safe to say that the Ultramarine vision is for "civilization as it was".

There's also the assumption that the Imperium is doomed, which I'm not so sure is true. I mean, it's beset on all fronts by a myriad of threats. . . but that's hardly outside of the norm for the past 10 millennia.

Theocracity
15-01-2013, 20:10
The Kubler-Ross model was originally designed to refer to a person's emotional progress when dealing with an inevitable death. So for the purposes of this argument, I am assuming that the Horus Heresy was the metaphorical onset of a terminal illness in the Imperium, and that it's been slowly degrading from the glory of the Emperor's grand vision towards humanity's eventual extinction. I think that interpretation is born out in a lot of the doom-and-gloom grim darkness of the setting - though it's obviously not the only one :).

The Ultramarines are fighting to keep humanity alive by any means - even if they have to construct a new paradigm that doesn't quite work to do it. Whether they're successful or not depends on your level of grim darkness, but if you assume that their failure is inevitable then what they're doing is pointless. A Space Wolf on the other hand has reached acceptance - whether they win or lose they'll do it in a blaze of glory, with little care if the structure of what they fought for is intact.

MvS
15-01-2013, 20:22
What about the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White Scars?

insectum7
15-01-2013, 20:34
The Kubler-Ross model was originally designed to refer to a person's emotional progress when dealing with an inevitable death. So for the purposes of this argument, I am assuming that the Horus Heresy was the metaphorical onset of a terminal illness in the Imperium, and that it's been slowly degrading from the glory of the Emperor's grand vision towards humanity's eventual extinction.

Fair enough. I tend to be on the more optimistic side for the Imperiums future, and view the wolves in this context to be. . . eh, more irresponsible maybe.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-01-2013, 20:38
Irresponsible ? Just because they care more about drinking booze than about the future of the Imperium doesn't make them irresponsible !

Theocracity
15-01-2013, 20:51
Nothing wrong with that viewpoint - in fact I don't think any of the various reactions are 'wrong,' depending on their context. I just think its an interesting framework to view the various chapters' personalities and how they react under stress.

I didn't include the other Codex chapters because there aren't enough states for each, we don't know enough about their reactions, and because they follow the Codex Astartes (the Ultramarine's work of Bargaining). Also it's better to limit it to published codexes or else we get out of hand quickly.

insectum7
15-01-2013, 21:05
Irresponsible ? Just because they care more about drinking booze than about the future of the Imperium doesn't make them irresponsible !

Lol. Well, I think some of the fans play that up a little more than it ought to be :)


I just think its an interesting framework to view the various chapters' personalities and how they react under stress.

That's definitely true, the separate reactions to the Heresey are great ways to define the personality of each chapter. The UM = bargaining just doesn't sit right with me, since the Codex Astartes was transformational and a distinct break from the past.

*But I can only half pay attention to the discussion right now, so maybe I'm missing a subtlety about "bargaining".

Theocracity
15-01-2013, 21:16
I was skeptical of how bargaining fit the framework too, but the Wikipedia summary of it made it make sense.


The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just do something to buy more time....

The idea is that the Codex Astartes and the reign of the High Lords of Terra is a temporary, unsustainable fix. It's not as strong as the pre-Heresy Imperium, and it's crumbling even as they fight to protect it.

Of course, if they're right and the Imperium pulls through, they'll have been the ones responsible for keeping it together.

insectum7
15-01-2013, 21:24
So the eventual outcome determines whether the UM are "bargaining", or were the first to "accept" the situation and just do the best they could with what they had?

Theocracity
15-01-2013, 21:31
That's my thought. Similarly, the wisdom of a terminally ill person spending their life's savings on either a longshot treatment or a blowout party changes significantly depending on whether they are miraculously cured or not.

Since we don't know the end of this story, it's a nice piece of narrative tension.

trotsky
15-01-2013, 21:36
That would seem to indicate the Wolves not minding the idea that the Imperium is falling apart, which doesn't really sit right.

I'm not sure how the UM would be hung up on the Heresy either. They were probably the quickest to accept the situation IMO.

I couldn't flip the two though, it's not like the Space Wolves are bargaining.

'Acceptance' of being terminal ill doesn't mean you don't mind dying. It just means you accept you can't stop it so just do what you can to prolonge and enjoy your life. It doesn't mean you would give up.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-01-2013, 21:55
Lol. Well, I think some of the fans play that up a little more than it ought to be :)
Come on, space wolves are the drunken army of party-goers marines ! Remember when that whole Ecclesiarchal palace was pillaged and everyone inside murdered ? The Space Wolves responsible were so drunk they didn't remember anything that happened when the woke up in the shattered remains, and thought that they came to defend it, while they actually were the one responsible because they thought one of the servants there questioned their manliness !
Other space marines have acidic blood, space wolves have alcoholic blood ! You could use it to disinfect some wounds !

Theocracity
15-01-2013, 22:47
Come on, space wolves are the drunken army of party-goers marines ! Remember when that whole Ecclesiarchal palace was pillaged and everyone inside murdered ? The Space Wolves responsible were so drunk they didn't remember anything that happened when the woke up in the shattered remains, and thought that they came to defend it, while they actually were the one responsible because they thought one of the servants there questioned their manliness !
Other space marines have acidic blood, space wolves have alcoholic blood ! You could use it to disinfect some wounds !

Google's only relevant result for this is the comically hyperbolic 1d4chan's list of bad things that happened to Sisters, and it doesn't mention this. I'd ask for a citation if the whole rant wasn't wildly off topic in the first place :p.


'Acceptance' of being terminal ill doesn't mean you don't mind dying. It just means you accept you can't stop it so just do what you can to prolonge and enjoy your life. It doesn't mean you would give up.

Precisely.

Lothlanathorian
15-01-2013, 23:51
But it's more a hobby or maybe a summer vacation thing rather than the overriding factor of their existence as it is with most of the others.

That, and it isn't something the entire Chapter runs off and does or really even has much of a say in when it does. A Wolf Lord will, on his own, decide to take his Great Company out looking for Russ. That isn't the whole Chapter, that's the one guy.


What about the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and White Scars?

The OP was specific to Chapters that have a Codex.

DarthMarko
16-01-2013, 00:02
Come on, space wolves are the drunken army of party-goers marines ! Remember when that whole Ecclesiarchal palace was pillaged and everyone inside murdered ? The Space Wolves responsible were so drunk they didn't remember anything that happened when the woke up in the shattered remains, and thought that they came to defend it, while they actually were the one responsible because they thought one of the servants there questioned their manliness !
Other space marines have acidic blood, space wolves have alcoholic blood ! You could use it to disinfect some wounds !
LOOOOOOLLLLL - source ? This is the first time I really laugh on Warseer....+1

Son of Morkai
16-01-2013, 00:10
Iron Hands are very much in the Anger phase - not limited to just their enemies, but everyone. Much like a terminally ill person will lash out and friends and family.

Depending on your view of the Raven Guard, they'd vary between Depression and Acceptance. Their style of combat suits M41, but they do have dark secrets they've never quite forgiven themselves for.

No clue about the White Scars.

Zywus
16-01-2013, 00:18
It's a clever "theory", or brainwave, or whatever;)

It's probably no intended design or anything, but yes, it does kinda fit with into the chapters personalities.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
16-01-2013, 00:33
Google's only relevant result for this is the comically hyperbolic 1d4chan's list of bad things that happened to Sisters, and it doesn't mention this. I'd ask for a citation if the whole rant wasn't wildly off topic in the first place :p.

LOOOOOOLLLLL - source ? This is the first time I really laugh on Warseer....+1
It's mentioned on the next Eldar codex by Matt Ward. This was all carefully prepared by those evil manipulative beings ! They do get a lot of new rule to make your army do very stupid things in this codex.
(Or I just made everything up :D)

Theocracity
16-01-2013, 01:51
It's mentioned on the next Eldar codex by Matt Ward. This was all carefully prepared by those evil manipulative beings ! They do get a lot of new rule to make your army do very stupid things in this codex.
(Or I just made everything up :D)

Well, cut it out :).

Hellebore
16-01-2013, 01:52
Well, cut it out :).

Can't be any worse than what Ward makes up and GW publishes....:angel:

Hellebore

Theocracity
16-01-2013, 05:17
Well I was hoping to discuss the ways in which the stories we tell tend to draw from the common emotional experiences of us all, no matter the subject matter - how even haphazardly generated backstories about future space men designed only for war could relate back to the facets of basic emotions.

But I guess we can make up hyperbolic nonsense and complain about Mat Ward instead. Have fun.

Hellebore
16-01-2013, 06:40
you make a joke about someone else making up silly things, i simply pointed out the obvious in a similarly light hearted fashion.

As for the depth you claim above, well all I see is a clever bit of coincidental correlation and nought causation. In the same way that I could claim all the armies of 40k are represented by one of the signs of the zodiac if I tried hard enough. humans are very good at seeing patterns where we want to.

Certainly it was a clever connection to make, but I would draw the line at claiming GW's currently printed marine codices actually relate back to the 'facets of basic human emotion' via the stages of grief. Sure the authors' all invested some emotion in their writing, but it's impossible not to. The fact that each of these codices is built on the writings of multiple authors over (in some cases) the last 20 years* doesn't really support any notion of clear emotional direction implied by using the stages of grief.

They're a mishmash of ideas, tropes and emotions that if you squint happen to kind of fit into the one of the stages of grief. Of course WHAT about the chapters fits those stages is subjective and has already been shown, people can find evidence for different conclusions easily enough.

For example, the whole disappearance of Russ and the Great Hunts. As much as I'd love to see my space wolves as those who've taken on acceptance, this whole story reeks of 'don't worry Timmy, little pete is on a farm with all his friends'. Russ 'leaves' but the chapter can't accept that he dies, so they go out desperately trying to find the better place he went to. That looks like denial to me. But due to the subjectivity of the comparisons, it's no more correct than saying they're at 'acceptance'. 'Leaving' is classic child psychology for something being dead, because it means they don't 'lose' the individual, they just can't see them.

*The space wolf codex celebrates its birth in second editon this year. Yes, it's been 20 years since GW first printed a 40k codex (the space wolf codex was the first).

Hellebore

FerociousBeast
16-01-2013, 11:08
Ultramarines are the soul of acceptance. Hell, they benefited the most from the events of the Heresy. Honestly, I'm not sure I see the UMs as giving a crap at all, so I'm not sure they should be in any kind of grief list.

But, if you need someone for bargaining, I think Ward's new take on the Grey Knights fits quite peachy...

Theocracity
16-01-2013, 14:05
you make a joke about someone else making up silly things, i simply pointed out the obvious in a similarly light hearted fashion.

As for the depth you claim above, well all I see is a clever bit of coincidental correlation and nought causation. In the same way that I could claim all the armies of 40k are represented by one of the signs of the zodiac if I tried hard enough. humans are very good at seeing patterns where we want to.

Certainly it was a clever connection to make, but I would draw the line at claiming GW's currently printed marine codices actually relate back to the 'facets of basic human emotion' via the stages of grief. Sure the authors' all invested some emotion in their writing, but it's impossible not to. The fact that each of these codices is built on the writings of multiple authors over (in some cases) the last 20 years* doesn't really support any notion of clear emotional direction implied by using the stages of grief.

They're a mishmash of ideas, tropes and emotions that if you squint happen to kind of fit into the one of the stages of grief. Of course WHAT about the chapters fits those stages is subjective and has already been shown, people can find evidence for different conclusions easily enough.

For example, the whole disappearance of Russ and the Great Hunts. As much as I'd love to see my space wolves as those who've taken on acceptance, this whole story reeks of 'don't worry Timmy, little pete is on a farm with all his friends'. Russ 'leaves' but the chapter can't accept that he dies, so they go out desperately trying to find the better place he went to. That looks like denial to me. But due to the subjectivity of the comparisons, it's no more correct than saying they're at 'acceptance'. 'Leaving' is classic child psychology for something being dead, because it means they don't 'lose' the individual, they just can't see them.

*The space wolf codex celebrates its birth in second editon this year. Yes, it's been 20 years since GW first printed a 40k codex (the space wolf codex was the first).

Hellebore

A lot of analysis of actual literature actually falls into the same category of what you're talking about. Even writers like Hemingway have said that they didn't intend to put in all the symbolism that people see. You're right that humans are good at seeing patterns, but we're also good at creating patterns based on our experiences.

I know that GW didn't intend to write that level of psychology into their backstory. But I find it interesting that of the five main marine chapters they've written more about, they way they fleshed each out reflected a different way of reacting to situations - even among a faction who's known for being single-minded. Why did they make those decisions? Could it be partly because a story is more interesting when you have a range of possible emotions reflected in its characters?

Think about it with another form of media. In a survival horror movie, you often have a range of cliche characters - the hero, the spaz, the untrustworthy one, the hothead, etc. Why do we always have this same variation of character types? Why is it always one character of each personality? If you think about it, this range of personality traits sort of maps onto the Marine chapters as well (Ultramarines are the hero type, Black Templars the hothead, Dark Angels the untrustworthy one, etc). Two types of pop culture, each with very different forms of creation, but both unconsciously use similar tools to develop its characters.

Analyzing the base ways we tells stories, and how they're reflected even in something as silly as plastic spaceman games, is interesting to me. I'd rather talk about that, even if it's half made up, than more terminally boring 'lol mat ward' garbage.

MajorWesJanson
16-01-2013, 14:13
'Acceptance' of being terminal ill doesn't mean you don't mind dying. It just means you accept you can't stop it so just do what you can to prolonge and enjoy your life. It doesn't mean you would give up.

That would make Acceptance fit best with Grey Knights. They know the fight is neverending, but fight on anyways.

As for some of the other First Founders, I'd put
Salamanders- Denial: still seeking out their long lost Primarch, clinging to his relics.
Iron Hands- Bargaining: Their Primarch fell, but if they convert from flesh to Iron they will be stronger
Imperial Fists- Depression: They have taken the loss of the Emperor despite Dorn's defense of him hard, and now have their stubborn stoicism hiding masochistic habits.
Raven Guard- not sure
White Scars- not sure

Theocracity
16-01-2013, 14:14
Ultramarines are the soul of acceptance. Hell, they benefited the most from the events of the Heresy. Honestly, I'm not sure I see the UMs as giving a crap at all, so I'm not sure they should be in any kind of grief list.

But, if you need someone for bargaining, I think Ward's new take on the Grey Knights fits quite peachy...

I don't think that's quite true. The Ultramarines worked really hard to establish the current Imperium after the Emperor's death, even though that establishment wasn't capable of truly handling a galactic civilization - leading to the slow rot that has created the grim darkness of the far future. That seems very similar to the idea of bargaining - making massive changes to your life in order to avoid the inevitable.

The Grey Knights don't really fit the model. If anything, they're the doctor caring for the terminally ill patient - trying to do whatever they can to cure it, but willing to take extreme steps if the disease becomes contagious.

On a storytelling level, the Grey Knight's role of the flawless paladin is more of an idealist creation - they don't reflect humanity because humanity is necessarily flawed. That makes them a little less interesting for telling good stories - which may be one of the reasons they've become such a punching bag around here.

Sai-Lauren
16-01-2013, 14:49
I read the first post, and wondered for a second whether I'd actually been redirected away from Warseer to somewhere more highbrow. :)

Possibly one of the best posts ever on this site.



Think about it with another form of media. In a survival horror movie, you often have a range of cliche characters - the hero, the spaz, the untrustworthy one, the hothead, etc.

I guess it gives the audience a way to quickly identify each character (and in some ways identify with them), without needless character exposition that some forms of media can't really spend time on - if we take the final four Colonial Marines in Aliens, you could kind of go down that list with Hicks, Hudson, Gorman and Vasquez in order (ok, some people will almost certainly disagree with those assessments). Only in a series is there time to expand each of those character stereotypes into more complex individuals, such as the original Scooby Gang in Buffy (Buffy, Willow, Giles and Xander) - each of them probably takes a different role of those mentioned at different times. And if you looked at the five chapters you mentioned now versus how they were first fleshed out, you'd almost certainly find they were very different entities (and maybe even occupied different places on that list).

Stereotypes and cliches aren't necessarily bad things, but not expanding outside of them when you'd got the chance is. Say, the Space Wolves are generally depicted as the fun-loving party guys who care for the general population, but there must come instances where they'd slaughter every human in the area without any remorse, but not just as a mercy kill or to prevent the spread of something.

The trick, of course, is to write the latter so it still fits in with the former...

Xisor
16-01-2013, 15:10
Theo, love the line of thinking on it. Whilst I do doubt it's done with any serious forethought (as Hellebore notes), for reasons soon explained, I do find the analysis interesting. Indeed, from the point of view of inspiring a 'where next' line of thinking, it's wonderful.

So, what's the flaw?

Well, there's a passage from Battle of the Fang which, in my esteem, puts Space Wolves firmly in the denial stage. That is: Their entire MO is geared around ignoring their own ancestor's culpability in things. The 30k Space Wolves & Russ had an opportunity to do something greater. The Battle of the Fang era Wolves had a similar opportunity to 'move on'. But they can't. They won't. They revel in their belief that there's 'no problem at all'. Look at the outcome of The Emperor's Gift, try and tell me that the whole arc was a fairly ordinary and welcome trajectory of affairs? Bah!

The Dark Angels, on the otherhand... I'm not sure I'd pin them at acceptance - perhaps they can go into bargaining? They're obsessed with putting it right, pleading to overrule the sins of the past, very carefully trying to restructure things so that it can all go back to being 'just so' and all this Fallen business can be forgotten - because amends will have been made.

That, in itself, allows the Ultramarines to advance to 'acceptance'. Contrast with the arcs discussed in The Masters, Bidding by Matt Farrer: modern Space Marine Chapters (and their rival renegades and traitors) aren't concerned with the Heresy. Indeed, only the Black Templars, Grey Knights and Dark Angels (& Successors) are really hung up on it. The Blood Angels have their own legacy to worry about... but it's vague and odd enough not to immediately put them in with the other three. Imperial Fists are self-obsessed, looking at Dorn as an iconic lord of 'how to handle grief' (dysfunctional as all that is, I'm not sure it puts them directly into a stage). Similarly, the Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and White Scars have all, more or less, really moved on. The Heresy is a significant part of their past, but it's not so overwhelming as to overshadow everything else.

This same applies even more so for Successor Chapters, the are further and further disconnected from the Heresy - they have their own crosses to carry, their own obsessions and insecurities to nurse. It's part of the reason, as a tangent, that I think 40k Marines are, in general, massively superior and more fit for purpose than the over-romanticised heroes of 30k. In 30k they had a hell of a lot more symbolic investment in events, a more personal approach to things despite the vast numbers involved. With 40k, they don't. Individual Chapters have to worry about how they prosecute war, how they manage their own affairs and how they can handle 'what they can feasibly deal with' - the fate of the galaxy, the ultimate end of the Imperium, the battle for the Emperor's Soul... that all rests with other people.

As per The Masters, Bidding, I wonder if a lot of the, say, 41st Millennium successors view the past-obsessed First Founding icons as in privileged positions, wasting their advantage by worrying about less important matters? Whilst the Ultramarines might well be 'the best of the best', are they the most efficient? The most effective, on a Chapter-by-Chapter metric? Is there really any way to properly measure that? When it comes down to attitude, I wonder if, perhaps, the likes of the Red Hunters, whilst viewed as toadies of the Inquisition by us, the readers, are actually much more professional, reasonable and not-so-annoying to work with. Perhaps even much more useful at keeping the Imperium of Mankind going than the boat-rocking Space Wolves or the passive-aggressive domineering of even the Ultrarmarines?

Speculatively, I think this is a damn rich seam.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
16-01-2013, 15:24
But I find it interesting that of the five main marine chapters they've written more about, they way they fleshed each out reflected a different way of reacting to situations - even among a faction who's known for being single-minded. Why did they make those decisions? Could it be partly because a story is more interesting when you have a range of possible emotions reflected in its characters?
Well, they make a big use of tropes and reference to pop culture. And those assignment are very subjective. But yeah, I guess if you only get extremely simple single-minded clones in your story, it won't be interesting.

Think about it with another form of media. In a survival horror movie, you often have a range of cliche characters - the hero, the spaz, the untrustworthy one, the hothead, etc. Why do we always have this same variation of character types?
Because tropes :
- Works. Or at least work when rightfully used. If they didn't, they wouldn't become tropes.
- Are way easier than inventing something new. Especially when there has been millions of story written before yours.
There is a whole wiki devoted to discussing tropes, http://tvtropes.org .
They have a page for 40k : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/Warhammer40000?from=Main.Warhammer40000 .
(Not that I'm implying in any way that Warseer is not a right place for a discussion on tropes, but they have some interesting stuff on the matter, and I thought you could be interested)

I'd rather talk about that, even if it's half made up, than more terminally boring 'lol mat ward' garbage.
Well, I thought my story was funny. Yeah, it's completely made up, but funny nonetheless.

insectum7
16-01-2013, 21:30
The Ultramarines worked really hard to establish the current Imperium after the Emperor's death, even though that establishment wasn't capable of truly handling a galactic civilization - leading to the slow rot that has created the grim darkness of the far future. That seems very similar to the idea of bargaining - making massive changes to your life in order to avoid the inevitable.


That's a pretty aggressive stance though. The "grim darkness of the far future" existed before the UM had anything to do with it, even before the Fall of the Eldar and all the way back to the dawn of our life in our galaxy, when the necrontyr were first being pushed around by their galactic foe, the Old Ones. The Grim Darkness has been around for a long time. And speaking for only humanity, the Imperium itself during the Great Crusade was hardly an ideal setup, and filled with genocide and xenocide on massive scales.

Also, I think the notion that the Imperium as being inherently unstable, and incapable of handling a pan-galactic organization is also an inherently flawed assumption. It gets by rather well for all it's faults, and remains the dominant power. But regardless, despite the UM playing a huge hand in the initial stages of it's organization, their own realm of influence is quite different from the Imperium as a whole, indicating that their chapter's "emotional disposition" is not necessarily reflected in the Imperium as a whole.

I think maybe Ultramar is more accurate place to look to for their disposition, and by most accounts is a fairly outstanding example of human empire. Now, whether this means "acceptance" or "denial" or whatever, I think is up for some debate. I sorta think they are attempting to provide an example, but without crusading around as a legion of old, and sorta hoping successor chapters will "get it" and try to do the same.

*Basically, not only are all other marines dissapointed they aren't Ultramarines, but the Ultramarines are also dissapointed in them :)


*several grains of salt