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fishound7
17-01-2013, 00:26
oh Wow i just noticed 18 mino's with ahw, and gorebull with beast banner costs 1337!!

Naked, Ahw, or shield?

I think the rest of the army would be raiders/dogs maybe a 40 ungor unit or two. and diverters. Slap on a wyssan's buff or two and thats a ton of str 7 or 8 attacks.

if going 18 mino's w/ ahw in horde thats
25 str 6 attacks from front rank
6 str 6 from gorebull
d3 + 5 impact hits
36 supporting attacks.
6 stomp str 6

so

If you throw chaff at the unit that increases the attacks by 6 which will semi make up for your losses. I dunno, too gimmicky? i could put some magic resistance on the gorebull so the unit gets a ward save to magic.

Pancakey
17-01-2013, 01:41
I have seen this unit. It works! :)

shortlegs
17-01-2013, 10:34
And what makes you think anyone will fight such a unit?

In this era of chaff heavy armies, that big fat block will never see combat against any meaningful unit.

But for kicks, go ahead.

Yowzo
17-01-2013, 12:18
Foot of gork loves these MI hordes.

But sure, try it, MI hordes are great to play with.

Malorian
17-01-2013, 12:37
Did I mention I think minotaurs are trash?

A horde this expensive that is forced to overrun (and not even fast enough to catch their prey) is a VERY bad thing.

Show me a horde of pumbagors and I'll be much more scared.

popisdead
18-01-2013, 20:25
Ignoring the attempted flame-war,...

You could try 7 Minotaurs, BSB with Beasts banner in 4x2 formation. The Horde of Minotaurs removes the magic and (heavy) chaff support required. Things to consider would be a Champion with the ASF sword (haven't tried him yet but the Init 10 sword is useful on the champ in a Minobus), just 8 Minotaurs with command.

Also to overcome slow chasing combo charge with a Razorgor (chariot).

The Minotaurs serve the purpose of grinding and impact vs what the Gors and Bestigors do. Helps with target threat too.

Memnos
19-01-2013, 19:30
Did I mention I think minotaurs are trash?

A horde this expensive that is forced to overrun (and not even fast enough to catch their prey) is a VERY bad thing.

Show me a horde of pumbagors and I'll be much more scared.

Absolutely: 3d6/take the highest 2 charge, with higher movement. They get S6 on the charge, more attacks to start and are tougher.
If Pumbagors had a decent model, Beastmen army would have many, many versions.

xalfej
20-01-2013, 06:01
Show me a horde of pumbagors and I'll be much more scared. By scared you of course mean of that many of that hideous model on the table, right?

~xalfej

Jerry
20-01-2013, 08:04
Well they have frenzy... and a huge footprint... and are slow... so expect them to attract all the chaff in the warhammer universe and end the game with +5 frenzy markers and 200 VPs worth of giant eagles, wolf riders, harpies etc. under their belt.

Chicago Slim
21-01-2013, 12:26
You could try 7 Minotaurs, BSB with Beasts banner in 4x2 formation. ...

The Minotaurs serve the purpose of grinding and impact vs what the Gors and Bestigors do. Helps with target threat too.

I usually run my minotaurs in exactly that 7+BSB format. It's vicious enough to do most jobs on its own, it tends to draw fire that won't actually be enough to stop it from doing its job... AND it's prone to getting stuck out in the middle of nowhere, if the opponent knows how to manipulate the Bloodgreed. I couldn't recommend putting MORE points into something so easily neutralized.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2013, 13:48
this era of chaff heavy armies

Jeesh, does that mean I've missed the latest fashion again?

Warrior of Chaos
22-01-2013, 17:00
Sounds like an intimidating formation...in practice it is a huge points sink with lots of disadvantages. A smart opponent would avoid it at all costs, feed it only cheap chaff, and magic it 'till it stopped twitching. No doubt it would hit like a freight train...IF you got in into a worthwhile combat. I would say cut the size down to say....6 in a 3x2 and (maybe even two units of 6). I don't play Beastmen, but it seems like a massive gamble to try it as a main build. It might be fun to do once to completely throw off your opponent on a fun game.

Kayosiv
22-01-2013, 22:18
I would laugh at a unit of 18 minotaurs before redirecting them off to nowhereland, and would give 3 units of 6 minotaurs serious consideration before trying to deal with them.

rocdocta
23-01-2013, 02:15
this mega unit would suffer greatly vs armies such as great eagles. heroes on a monster issuing challenges would be an intersting way of beating it. for example a VC blender lord on a dragon would mash most things and generate alot of CR against it.

Ogres can do the same thing but have far more bodies and attacks. for that many minos you could get 41 bulls and have a standard. may do some dodgey maths hammer on it.

Minos charge
2+5 impact hits = 7. str 6 = 6 wounds. no saves
61 attacks = 40.66 hits = 33.88 wounds. after parry = 28.24 wounds
gorebull = 6 attacks = 4 hits = 3.33 wounds = 2.77 wounds = 12 dead bulls (ouch!)

bulls attack back
41-12 = 29 bulls left.
18x3 = 54 attacks
54 attacks = 27 hits = 13.5 wounds no save. so 4 dead minos.

14 minos = 1 ranks.
29 bulls = 5 ranks. bulls lose but have stand fast.

minos = 1 rank, bulls = 3 ranks
minos = std, bsb bulls = 0
minos charge
minos = 36 wounds + 2 stds + 1 rank = 39
bulls = 13 wounds + 3 ranks = 16

if bulls charge

6 impact hits = 6 str 6 = 5 wounds. no saves
minos
56 attacks = 37.33 hits = 31.11 wounds. after parry = 25.92 wounds
gorebull = 6 attacks = 4 hits = 3.33 wounds = 2.77 wounds = 28 wounds = 9 dead bulls (ouch!)

bulls attack back
41-9 = 32 bulls left.
18x3 = 54 attacks
54 attacks = 27 hits = 18.5 wounds no save. so 6 dead minos.

minos = 1 rank, bulls = 3 ranks
minos = std, bsb bulls = 0
bulls charge
minos = 28 wounds + 2 stds + 1 rank = 31
bulls = 18 wounds + 3 ranks + charge = 22

bulls again lose but have steadfast. given another round or 2 of combat the bulls will grind the minos down if they dont flee beforehand. However seeing 41 bulls in a single unit is unlikely and a little bit silly.

Sarael
24-01-2013, 03:56
If I have a unit of 40 ogre bulls they'd be 8w 5d... esp against 6w minotaurs...

Just sayin'

Edit: my way gives 72 atk 36 h 18 w, 6 dead minos (had to edit again, forgot can only attack with 24 bulls not all 29)

rocdocta
24-01-2013, 04:16
That is a very good point Sarael. even at 5 deep they still get standfast after cas. If they get the charge off its 8 str 8 impact hits.

Sarael
24-01-2013, 04:26
Crunching math in my head real fast, this ends in 4 combats. The minotaurs win every round, even the round they are wiped out on... but they die and there are ogres left to mop up anything left of the rest of the opposing army... This is all assuming that the ogres don't fail their steadfast though.

Sarael
24-01-2013, 04:33
Minos are probably better off with shields in this particular sandbox... I'll crunch numbers in a bit and edit this post...

rocdocta
24-01-2013, 05:08
dont minos have frenzy so cant parry? also is the beast banner of +1 str on a bsb? if so nailing that bad boy would be key to lessening the pain.

Sarael
24-01-2013, 05:39
Frenzy prevents shield use? I need to reread the rules on it...

Yes, the beast banner is on the BSB, and you can take him out turn 1 if you're not unlucky, turn 2 should be certain. 9 bulls = 27 atk, 13.5 hit, 4.5 wounds per turn. On average. After that the minos combat effectiveness diminishes by 17% (16.66666) on to wound rolls (3s instead of 2s). This is also why a huge unit should not have a champ unless there's a character in the unit (challenges ruin horde character sniping).

That said, I agree with Kayosiv about 3 units of 6 rather than one of 18 with a BSB. I also agree with Mal about Minos being trash (not points efficient, frenzy overrun sucks, fragile). IF I played BoC I'd only use Minos if I used OB's Doombull build.

fishound7
24-01-2013, 06:31
I'm never going to field this but its fun to think about
are you guys taking into account bloodgreed? +1 attack every combat win for the mino's?

rocdocta
24-01-2013, 06:44
no i hadnt. thats a very good point. does bump them up into do not touch with CC territory now i think of it.

Lord Skrolk
24-01-2013, 07:32
Another somewhat pointless post

Edit, woke up in a bad mood today. Minos are nice, shame about the sucky minis Gw makes. Scibor ones on the other hand are sex, fact.

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones

Sarael
24-01-2013, 08:13
I did, and the minos still win combat every turn but are demolished by the end if the ogres go wider to bring their superior numbers to bear. The problem is that they're gaining 6 attacks, but losing 5-6 minotaurs the first two turns (only 2 or 3 are left on round 4 vs two full ranks of ogres, depending on whether the BSB dies on first round or second). Also, statistically, the ogres are always steadfast. This won't always be the case in actual gameplay, but that's why we have dice instead of just mathhammering out a game. Still, it's all unrealistic, as no one fields ogres with those numbers, and ONLY those numbers see the ogres beat the minos. Against any army other than heavy MI, that unit of 40 ogres is a lot of waste. Realistically, it's 18 minos vs 24 ogres with BSB and SM (same points). The SM gets off any one augment and the ogres are suddenly drawing the minos every turn... with superior numbers... A second augment sees the ogres winning... that's 6x3 vs 8x3 though.

Other than the feet/hooves, I like the mino models. Making the hooves more like hooves rather than toenails is an easy enough conversion if I ever wanted to play them.

N1AK
24-01-2013, 10:52
Massive deathstar units can win games against poor matchups and inexperience opponents. Other than in those circumstances the best they tend to do is make losing big less likely.

The problem is that even for a Deathstar, the Minostar isn't a great one. It isn't Steadfast (game over if a decent unit gets a flank). It's frenzied so expect to spend 4+ turns charging or turning around after overrunning against chaff units. Without a character it'll struggle against various unkillable character builds. It doesn't have protection against magic or incredible profile values so is vulnerable to spells that hit every model in a unit.

Yowzo
24-01-2013, 20:47
The problem is that even for a Deathstar, the Minostar isn't a great one. It isn't Steadfast (game over if a decent unit gets a flank). It's frenzied so expect to spend 4+ turns charging or turning around after overrunning against chaff units. Without a character it'll struggle against various unkillable character builds. It doesn't have protection against magic or incredible profile values so is vulnerable to spells that hit every model in a unit.

The worst thing about minos is that they're still T4, and just LA as protection. And they're just too expensive to bring the bodies to counter that.

They die in droves against anything.

Sarael
24-01-2013, 21:44
Which is why they're better off with 3 units of 6 rather than one of 18. In the given fight against ogres, they're losing 6 a turn. A unit of 6 doesn't lose 6 a turn (smaller frontage), and over the course of the entire game, the 3 units will last longer and deal more damage...

N1AK
28-01-2013, 07:37
The worst thing about minos is that they're still T4, and just LA as protection. And they're just too expensive to bring the bodies to counter that.


I'm going to disagree on that one. Ogre Ironguts have the same toughness and virtually no armour either yet make a very good deathstar. Don't get me wrong, I agree that T4/6+ is vulnerable for monstrous infantry but I don't think that is the biggest reason they don't get fielded (if it was then people would be using Wildform to more than make up for it).

Yowzo
28-01-2013, 11:34
I'm going to disagree on that one. Ogre Ironguts have the same toughness and virtually no armour either yet make a very good deathstar. Don't get me wrong, I agree that T4/6+ is vulnerable for monstrous infantry but I don't think that is the biggest reason they don't get fielded (if it was then people would be using Wildform to more than make up for it).

An irongut costs substantially less than a mino. 18 ironguts will just buy you just short of 13 minos with GW.

Plus OK have better character synergy for those big units. For a big, resilient horde Beastmen should look elsewhere (gors with beast banner or bestigors).

popisdead
28-01-2013, 15:38
Frenzy prevents shield use? I need to reread the rules on it...

That said, I agree with Kayosiv about 3 units of 6 rather than one of 18 with a BSB. I also agree with Mal about Minos being trash (not points efficient, frenzy overrun sucks, fragile). IF I played BoC I'd only use Minos if I used OB's Doombull build.

You cannot parry while frenzied. Still get the armour save. Would like to see Frenzy loose parry but gain Additional HW with shields. Shield-bashing minotaurs!

Minobusses are becoming more popular as is the 4x2 formation. People are just finding ways to make them work. Minotaurs only overrun 1D6 and when combo charged with a Razorgor and (can be) supported with a flying unit (Harpies) you can mitigate that.