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View Full Version : Are Vargheists very killy?



Maskedman5oh4
17-01-2013, 04:48
Looking for your experiences here.

I am considering running a vargheist heavy army.

If you were going to put them in two ranks, would it we 4x2 or 3x2?

Can they reliable kill the enemy?

Sarael
17-01-2013, 06:08
They are killy but fragile. If you can keep them out of the front of the enemy they will munch most units. Best I've seen them used is to take out war machine crews, overrun off board, then come back on and rear charge. Keep them away from anything tough enough to shrug off S5 reliably (like 1+ hvy cav) or which can bog them down like tarpits. Blood Knights are better though, IMO.

Lordcypress
17-01-2013, 06:58
I think they would be fun to use in an all flying army. I have used a unit of six 3x3 before to mixed success. Everything the previous poster just posted is correct. They need to hit kill and move onto the next target. They can't get bogged down. This is where the combo charging is vital. You need to bring overbearing force to make sure you break the enemy. I wanted to have multiple vampires mounted on hell steeds and vampire lord on zombie dragon all working together.

It would be a seriously fast army. All the power to you if you can create it.

m1acca1551
17-01-2013, 07:36
Depends on their role,

Chaff, MSU hunter: This is the roll the excel at, throw them at small units, detachments etc and they will rip through what ever they fight

Armoured units: They will damage these units, but due to there lack of armour they will yield wounds and CR.

Large units: unless flanking, avoid like the plague, large units will make a mockery of vargheist as they have the numbers to soak up the attacks and will dish a fair few back.

So yes they are very killy, but very situational, do not go throwing them at enemy elites unless you absolutely need to.

Maskedman5oh4
17-01-2013, 15:26
Is 3X2 viable or 4x1 the right way to field them?

Lordcypress
17-01-2013, 15:36
I would go 3X2. You get your supporting attacks. 3X2 generates 12 attacks from the front rank and 9 from the rear for a total of 21. 4X1 only generates 16 attacks.

Moss
17-01-2013, 21:09
Against a five-man frontage and with a clean charge, 4x1 would give you an extra attack. That said, you can more easily fit them into tighter spaces with 3x2. 3x2 is probably best for most situations.

Da Crusha
17-01-2013, 23:53
so how many units of 3X2 varghiests would be viable ,3 ,4? what else would work well in the list? I assume a mandatory terrorgheist. zombie dragon and vamps on hellsteeds as lord cyprus has suggested?

rocdocta
18-01-2013, 00:39
they are very killy but fall over very fast and are hard to res. i use them 5x1. you need all the CR you can bring to bear. they are almost a 1 shot weapon as once they have nailed a tough unit they will be too depleted for much else. crypt horrors are almost as killy but alot more survivable.

Maskedman5oh4
18-01-2013, 05:29
they are very killy but fall over very fast and are hard to res. i use them 5x1. you need all the CR you can bring to bear. they are almost a 1 shot weapon as once they have nailed a tough unit they will be too depleted for much else. crypt horrors are almost as killy but alot more survivable.

Almost as killy? With one less attack and one less strength and no flight seems more like an anvil.

rocdocta
18-01-2013, 08:32
i say almost as killy if you look at the math (and not including an extra CH due to being 8 points cheaper than the vargs):

5 varg
4 attacks, S5, init 4, WS4

5 CG
3 attacks, S4, init 2, WS3 poison

Vs
WS4+ T4
Varg
20 attacks. 10 hit. 6.66 wound. no armour save for 5+.
stomp = 4.16 wounds

CH
15 attacks. 2.5 poison wounds. 5 other hits. 2.5 wounds. 5+ armour = 6+ armour. 5*1/6 = 4.17 wounds
stomp = 2.5 wounds = 2.08 wounds after 6+ saves

so if all the Varg and CH get to attack
Vargs do a total of 10.82 wounds
CH do a total of 6.25 wounds

this sounds like Vargs will outperform the CH easily. But i class "as killy' by how much they kill over a game. lets say the enemy unit survives with 10 S4 attacks back
Vargs
5 hit, 2.5 wounds done
CH
6.66 hit, 1.48 wounds done.

The vargs could lose a model and be whittled away whereas the CH lose zero effectiveness.

The above doesnt take into account magic buffs. not flying means that often the CH are near a caster to be buffed with magic. rerolling misses helps poison a lot. My Vargs were generally out of range and had to rely on their punch power.

Kayosiv
18-01-2013, 09:12
In all fairness that is not a strike against them. If they're off flying somewhere it is a benefit, not a weakness, because you, as the general, flew them there in an attempt to put them in the most favorable position. If it is more beneficial to keep them close to your wizards so they can be buffed, you should do so and not blame "the unit" because they're not close enough to be buffed with magic after you moved them far away.

Moss
18-01-2013, 09:59
Right. They're not buffed, but they're likely getting a rear charge on an opponent of your choosing. That means that they're not allowing supporting attacks or other perks, which can swing the combat in their favor more than rerolls might.

club_death
20-01-2013, 03:10
So fragile in my experience. Used to run 2 units of 6 (mostly because I liked the models)
One round of bad movement, they're dead as a doornail. Had a unit decimated by 2 units of handgunners (firing long range through hard cover... Was good rolling but they have no save & t4. They need more target saturation to be effective

-Totenkopf-
20-01-2013, 05:22
my buddies bounce every game.. Last game they bounced off 10 glade guard... haha

dual vargulf on the other hand is a tag team wrecking machine

shortlegs
21-01-2013, 12:09
I don't really like them much. They are just a tad too fragile in an otherwise rather resilient army, which means easy points for the opponent. And also a little prone to doing what you may not want them to, in an army that otherwise reliably does exactly what you want them to do.

Warrior of Chaos
22-01-2013, 17:33
They are good for sweeping into enemy flanks and targeting squishy units. They are also excellent in attracting the attention of enemy shooting units...:shifty:

In a stand-up fight against hard hitting units, they will deal a fair amount of damage, but will be likely overwhealmed by their lack of a save. Crypt Horrors are better suited to a stand-up brawl (T5 and regen) where as the vargeists serve better as a cruise missile to take out lightly armed/armored units. They clear chaff like champs and are great for providing supporting/flank charges. In my last game against Ogres, I used them on my left flank and smashed into a big unit of Gnoblars (tore them to shreds and caught them on the pursuit). They were then counter-charged by a unit of Ogres (3x2) and summarily decimated in one turn. Granted, I rolled dismally, but the effect goes to show that they will suffer if faced with stiff resistance and no support. In previous games against high elves and skaven they performed superb...using them as flank chargers to support my other units.

Overall B+ (if used as supporters/flank maintenance)
Overall D (if used in a stand-up fight without support against T4/S4 or better troops)

...just my opinion.

Moss
23-01-2013, 03:34
Overall D (if used in a stand-up fight without support against T4/S4 or better troops)

Who scores well in a stand-up fight without support against T4/S4 or better troops?

rocdocta
23-01-2013, 06:04
Ogre bulls do very well. Grave guard are solid performers.

@WoC i loled when i read the vargies smashed a big unit of gnoblars. not really a selling point on their CC power. I agree with everything you have posted. I have found mine just got over whelmed. they did cause a bit of havoc but are a 1 shot weapon.

mr_gosh_the_return
23-01-2013, 10:39
I like horrors and gheists, if you have other fast stuff gheists compliment it nicely, if your a slow & tough VC army gheists become an easy target, horrors dont. personally I love my gheists. Killing even WoC on a flank charge with my ghouls hitting the front, so nice to reliably kill things!

Warrior of Chaos
23-01-2013, 14:17
@WoC i loled when i read the vargies smashed a big unit of gnoblars. not really a selling point on their CC power. I agree with everything you have posted. I have found mine just got over whelmed. they did cause a bit of havoc but are a 1 shot weapon.

Agreed, but I was trying to illustrate that they are effective at quickly eliminating squishy/flak units. :p Most of those chaff units crumble quite quickly from the beating the 'geists dish out alllowing you to move on to the next target without getting bogged down in CC for turn after turn. They do fine in the flanks against tougher units...w/ help.

@Moss: Chaos Warriors, Ogres, Chosen, GG, Longbeards...to name a few. :D I just think the 'geists lack of armor kinda removes them from being the MI tanks the OP may have been shooting for.

VampireOrcElf
24-01-2013, 03:12
i have a thought, 18 in horde :)

rocdocta
24-01-2013, 06:17
That would be a very bad thought. paying all those points for the 5 attacks when you only get 3 attacks per support. and no ranks. or standards. there would be little left for the rest of the army and they can be healed a max of 1 wound for being vamps. (is that right? havent played VC for ages) lore of heavens would hurt the unit a fair bit.

VampireOrcElf
24-01-2013, 12:52
getting 1 wound back per heal is correct, 18 CHs sounds better with a mortis engine and Beasts forbidden lore vamp :)

Warrior of Chaos
24-01-2013, 15:42
I actually would like to try two units of 3. One for each flank, then a unit of say 6 Crypt Horrors as a front-line unit give some hitting power above and beyond the skellies and zoms. I think that two small units of 'geists might prove to be a worrisome threat to my opponents' backfield. Their biggest liability is positioning because of frenzy.

VampireOrcElf
25-01-2013, 13:58
The main problem i see with vargheists is that for 40 more points you can get a varghulf. The varghulf will out last them substantially, doesn't have to worry about frenzy and is a monster in combat... Pun intended

Warrior of Chaos
25-01-2013, 15:38
^----This is true. But the ability to fly and maneuver on the 'geists is quite useful. Frenzy can be an issue, but the trick is to have the unit you want in that massive charge range. If you are forced to charge due to frenzy, at least you can leap over impeding units and try to get a bite out of something you want to hit anyways. Gotta love varghulfs though....tasty!