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View Full Version : How much chaff is too mucH?



fishound7
18-01-2013, 04:53
So i'm starting a new beastmen army and tryin to think outside the box. I am wanting a woodelf ish style but using combat to destroy the enemy instead of range. I've watched tons of video's on tactics and battle reports on 8th but i have little experience with it. I think i played like 3 games or so


It seems to me that missle units are not as popular as it was in 7th. some people don't take any missle units.

I would like to dominate the movement phase with beastmen. I also think beastmen have great access to cheap chaff.

So the question is how much is too much? i know this is dependant on meta but is 5 or 8 units of chaff to much?

I need enough chaff to counter chaff which i think raiders are great for and enough chaff to shut down say two units of hordestars

How many chaff units does it take to shutdown a hordestar?

Assuming i can't control turn one. The enemy has 5 turns of movement so 5 units each per hordestar in opposition? maybe a spare or two for casualties? so if i wanted to stop 2 hordestar units should i have 10 or 12 units of chaff? Thats only 300-360 points between dogs and raiders. prolly throw in a unit or two of harpies also. With that much i'll dominate deployment. Is that too many points allocated to chaff? Probably 3/4 of that chaff will die. Is that an acceptable amount of loss? Or is this a stupid idea?

Sh4d0w
18-01-2013, 05:19
So i'm starting a new beastmen army and tryin to think outside the box. I am wanting a woodelf ish style but using combat to destroy the enemy instead of range. I've watched tons of video's on tactics and battle reports on 8th but i have little experience with it. I think i played like 3 games or so


It seems to me that missle units are not as popular as it was in 7th. some people don't take any missle units.

I would like to dominate the movement phase with beastmen. I also think beastmen have great access to cheap chaff.

So the question is how much is too much? i know this is dependant on meta but is 5 or 8 units of chaff to much?

I need enough chaff to counter chaff which i think raiders are great for and enough chaff to shut down say two units of hordestars

How many chaff units does it take to shutdown a hordestar?

Assuming i can't control turn one. The enemy has 5 turns of movement so 5 units each per hordestar in opposition? maybe a spare or two for casualties? so if i wanted to stop 2 hordestar units should i have 10 or 12 units of chaff? Thats only 300-360 points between dogs and raiders. prolly throw in a unit or two of harpies also. With that much i'll dominate deployment. Is that too many points allocated to chaff? Probably 3/4 of that chaff will die. Is that an acceptable amount of loss? Or is this a stupid idea?

I'd be careful with ideas about missle units not being popular, they are in every DE, WE, HE, TK, Lizards and sometimes Brets, Ogres, Dwarfs. All I mean so say that in my gaming area shooting is common enough to take into consideration, yours may be different.

I do not really believe beastmen can dominate the movement phase against enough armies to really warrant trying it. I do agree with you on the chaff part, they may just be first for me because of their versatile selection for chaff.

Errr i dont think there is really a magic number :o, obviously the higher points you play the more you may need but for general games (1k-3k) i'd say if you want enough chaff to matter i think 3 units of ungor raiders, 2 units of harpies and a razorgor?

how many chaff units to take down a hordestar? well...assuming you have no other unit near him so he can redirect, i'd say 3 should be able to keep it out for most of the game if you do it right?? maybe

these questions are very hard to answer haha

fishound7
18-01-2013, 05:30
i'm thinkin at 2500 lvl. I don't see too many HE or dwarves take missle troops. dwarves take warmachines and the organ gun destroys chaff but thats a wasted shot usually. HE usually seem combat orientated. I've never played a TK army ever. Only army i see a lot is DE. \

fishound7
18-01-2013, 05:34
If people bring one missle unit i don't think it would be a problem as i could take that out quickly its only when there are 2 or 3 units that worries me.

Chicago Slim
21-01-2013, 12:36
There's a couple of High Elf players around here who use Lothern Sea Guard as their Core. High Elf core is currently... problematic: they have three choices, none of which are great, all of which are decent troops at a decent price, but now that they have to fill 25% of the army with those three (2.5) choices (spears, bows, or spears-and-bows!) it can be something of a burden to fill up the core. LSG, being the most expensive (and readily available as cheap plastic, thanks to the 8th ed box set), are seeing something of a resurgence.

Also, I'd count RBTs as High Elf missile troops: If I was to tell you that you could pay 17 points per model for a move-or-shoot, S4 AP, BS 4 with a 48" range, you'd want them, right? Well that's an RBT-- but wait, there's more: you also can fire it as a Bolt Thrower... My point being, RBTs are quite viable as chaff-destroyers, and see that role pretty often.


My Beastmen usually include about 20-30 Ungor Raiders in units of 5, with short bows. One of their designated roles is chaff destruction. Another of their roles is to BE chaff. That's maybe what I'd recommend for your chaff, as it has some versatility. I've never gotten dogs to do anything of any use, whatsoever. (Well, that's not true: I think I've redirected something with them, twice. Ever.)

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2013, 12:52
So the question is how much is too much? i know this is dependant on meta but is 5 or 8 units of chaff to much?


It's not possible to answer the question. You'd need to define "enough" beforehand, which I think is impossible, too. I've read a BatRep of O&G vs Wood Elves. The latter was a complete army of chaff, and it was simply overrun.

The problem isn't so much missile units and who may or may not bring them, there's also magic missiles (which are my favourite way of reliably killing off skirmishers and such stuff), stray templates and other chaff. At the end of the day, you only ever know what was enough after the fact.


I'd be careful with ideas about missle units not being popular, they are in every DE, WE, HE, TK, Lizards and sometimes Brets, Ogres, Dwarfs.

Even Empire, Skaven or WoC can and do field some.

Djekar
21-01-2013, 13:06
"Too Much" is when you don't have 2+(ish) things to actually do the hurting. Obviously if your "chaff" can also do some hurting, this is negated a bit.

That being said, there is a beastmen army that uses Ghorros Warhoof to make Centigor Core and is pretty much entirely "chaff" in that nothing is very expensive and wins through positioning/combo charging rather than brute force.

tmarichards
21-01-2013, 13:43
I find the right amount to be hard to pinpoint exactly, as it'll vary from army to army. I think having some redundancy is also important- for example, more often than not I only "need" 1 eagle to redirect out of a sticky spot, but if I take just one and it gets killed early on then I have no back-up. In this respect, it will depend on what that chaff is- I tend to find myself needing 2 units of Dryads, and I can get away with only taking 2 because they're immune to psych and relatively hard to kill, whereas an eagle has less than half as many wounds.

cptcosmic
22-01-2013, 10:55
enough to redirect a unit for atleast one turn thus you can deal with something else in the meantime.

that means, assuming the enemy has units to deal with chaff, you should have atleast two units.

Krokz
22-01-2013, 11:14
Two strictly chaff units is enough. If you go more, that chaff needs to fulfill other roles then speedbump/redirect. Like warmachine hunting, killing enemy chaff, pinning enemy chaff, actually do damage on flanks etc. IMO if your chaff has that multipurpose effect then you can go up to 6 or even more.

DeathlessDraich
22-01-2013, 15:27
How many chaff units does it take to shutdown a hordestar?



I'll answer this question since I've successfully done it. :)

I call them Sacrificials not chaff.

For Beasts:
4 units of 5 warhounds, as Sacrificials, will neutralise* ANy deathstar on a 1 vs 1 basis for the duration of the game. You could even do it with 3 Sacrificials provided, in both cases, you know the right manoeuvres.
Again all other enemy units will have to be lured elsewhere and getting the first turn is a huge advantage.

Of course if your opponent knows what you're up to you'll achieve only partial success - lasting only a few turns but that may be good enough. Good luck!

:)
EDIT - by 'neutralise' I mean the deathstar will do absolutely nothing and slay nothing while your Sacrificials remain alive.

rocdocta
23-01-2013, 05:07
i like as much chaff as possible. Allows deployment drops and enemy movement problems. when you become less effective is when you have too much chaff. i like having at least 3 chaff.

Loth
23-01-2013, 15:00
Take as many piggies as you can get as single units and 3-4 units of your small ungors/scouts. Those pigs are worth their weight in gold and get some good points for you and they're survivable as well.

My friend runs a mino bus at 2500 with that set up and it's pretty good.

Loth

Memnos
29-01-2013, 19:39
Loth is right. Razorgor are the go-to unit of choice for chaff. Or for big units. In fact, Razorgor are basically the best thing in the entire book. ;)

corps
29-01-2013, 19:53
what is CHAFF?

Confessor_Atol
29-01-2013, 20:28
It's only too much if your combat units trip over it.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-01-2013, 13:53
what is CHAFF?

5 archers, a Great Eagle, Sabertusk, Chaos Hounds, Bats, Giant Rats. Some light cavalry, too, sometimes even smallish missile units, throwaway stuff that costs little, 50 points at the most. Usually used to divert or speed bump strong units, break up battle lines by running interference, even picking off the odd model or cause some mischief in the backfield (Pistoliers, flyers etc. can do this but may cost up to 100 points).

corps
30-01-2013, 18:08
so chaff is a diversion gloabbly. thanks

popisdead
30-01-2013, 18:29
In Beastmen I run a minimum of 10 units of chaff. couple razorgor, couple tuskgor chariots, couple of units of harpies, 3-4 units of Raiders.

In Wood Elves they're all chaff except the unit with the flaming banner.

Ullis
30-01-2013, 18:30
In a standard 2,400 points Empire force I bring three "chaff" units - 2x5 archer detachments and a unit of 5 pistoliers (although I do not truly consider pistoliers chaff, as they can serve other purposes than simply redirecting/dying). Too much can hinder your own army's hitting power and can turn a game into a frustrating nightmare for your opponent which is simply not fun.