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Althwen
23-01-2013, 09:19
I have a question regarding the 'picking' allowed by Death spells in particular. Last week I wanted to cast Caress of Laniph on a HE Prince on a star dragon and I guess the same goes for Fate of Bjuna as well... Am I able to single out the rider? The spell description says 'single model' so we ended up playing I would have to substract the Dragon's strength and toughness from the number of hits inflicted by the respective spells as per the BRB: "Use a model's highest characteristic value."

Is this correct?

I wouldn't be surprised if it were, but it would make me want to take the Lore of Death even less on my TK's next time.

Cheers.

Scalebug
23-01-2013, 09:49
Despite being often referred to as "sniping spell(s)" in tactics discussion and listbuilding, the Death magic doesn't have the "Sniper" special rule that would allow you to pick out the rider of a monster...

And you are correct, it is the best value that is used for number of hits, then distribute them as usual (I don't have the book at hand, so I can't say if that means evenly, owners choice or random as for shooting. I would guess the latter, though don't quote me on it for now.. )

Was going to say "Fate of Bjuna is not entirely useless though, is it? Oven at the dragons strength, you wound on 2+ and no save, plus the permanent stupidity there, while not something to hang your entire plan on, still is a chance for a free little advantage?"

...but then I remembered it was 12" range and no boostability, so you are probably also right that it is not that attractive a Lore if you are tailoring for High Elves.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-01-2013, 10:15
I am of the opinion that the Dragon is a single model and the rider is a separate single model that constitute a unit. It is possible to single one of them out with a Hochland, with a Witchhunter, or to pick one with a Death spell that allows you to pick a single model.

The same debate goes on a little further down in the "Screaming Bell" thread, and you can see that two camps exist. The reason why I think that the rider and his monster mount need to be considered two single models on one base is the fact that they are bought separately, both hit by templates, can both attack AND be singled out in close combat and can exist separately from one another when one of them dies. All of this is for me sufficiently different to any single foot Elf or normal cavalryorc to come to my conclusion.

The fact that GW has just ruled that the Bell and the Seer are two single models could potentially be seen as another indicator however I'm personally loathe to apply special rules for unique special models to everyone else.

Archis
23-01-2013, 11:54
Last I checked there was a faq that used the example of casting fate of bjuna on an orc warboss on a wyvern. Can't check now or I'd find it for you

Scalebug
23-01-2013, 12:01
Last I checked there was a faq that used the example of casting fate of bjuna on an orc warboss on a wyvern. Can't check now or I'd find it for you

Indeed there is!

Q: Can spells that pick out individual models, even if they are in a
unit, choose what is hit when targeting a model with multiple
locations? For example The Fate of Bjuna is cast at an Orc
Warboss on a Wyvern, the caster can choose to target the Warboss
or the Wyvern and it will be resolved against the Toughness of the
target. (Reference)
A: Yes

So bump in value for Death-snipe spells (and a couple of more from various lores I think)!

So, that should settle it (until you run into an opponent claiming "The FAQs are not official rules per se..." but then there is probably already other factors leading you to not wanting to play this person anyway... :p )

Althwen
23-01-2013, 12:03
Last I checked there was a faq that used the example of casting fate of bjuna on an orc warboss on a wyvern. Can't check now or I'd find it for you

Hey thanks, that gave me a keyword to do a search on and I came up with this from the main BRB FAQ:

Q: Can spells that pick out individual models, even if they are in a
unit, choose what is hit when targeting a model with multiple
locations? For example The Fate of Bjuna is cast at an Orc
Warboss on a Wyvern, the caster can choose to target the Warboss
or the Wyvern and it will be resolved against the Toughness of the
target. (Reference)
A: Yes.

Seems that one can indeed separate the rider from his mount with these spells.... that's better then :D

Archis
23-01-2013, 13:14
Glad to help. I am on my phone which makes faqing more difficult. Just need to know them all off the top of your head, right?

Kalandros
23-01-2013, 19:33
I wish I could apply the same to a Soul Grinder's Daemon Claw, forces an initiative test on the dragon but if the rider uses his initiative then whats the point? D: