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quina2525
23-01-2013, 13:50
Hey there ive long been out of the game (5 years) And just came back to getting lizardmen as my new army, and want to get back into the game!

Now from what i understand in the new 8th ed rules models from the second rank get to attack once per model. But with spears you get to fight in 3 ranks (Non horde).

So i ask you this, is it worth the extra +1 point per model for spears or just regular HW + shield for the 6+ parry save?

Im running 2x 24 strong units of saurus in my current list, with a slann using lore of light (Speed of light being the main reason)

Ive already glued the spears on a few weeks ago and though id ask for some opinions before i go ahead and basecoat them.
Any help would be awesome,

cheers

John

Malorian
23-01-2013, 14:12
Spears forces you to take a larger unit to make it worth it, but in general lizardmen are a defensive army and spear suit them well.

That being said if you hadn't built them yet I would say to stick with hand weapon and shield. Lossing the parry, and no extra attack when you charge, isn't typically worth the extra points.

dementian
23-01-2013, 14:45
I agree with Malorian especially when using lore of light. The extra 6 attacks from spears when not charging is not that spectacular the extra 6 attacks will on average net you an extra 4 hits and 2 more wounds for T4 enemy. So on the charge it makes no difference and in prolonged combat it is only bringing a bit more effort into your combats. Where as the parry save will always be effective (assuming you don't get flanked but at that point spears don't help either).

Odds are you are going to come up against some stuff with strength that starts to negate your armor save and in that case being able to save 1/6 is much better than 0. I remember taking on a WL chariot and saved 3/5 impact hits with parry saves :P

But hey there is nothing wrong with trying out both weapon types and see what fits your play style or which you prefer aesthetically.

quina2525
23-01-2013, 14:53
Id rather have the HW and shields tbh had to much trouble in the past with spears bending in transit or breaking etc.

I forgot to say i run my 2 units of 24 6 wide with four ranks, if that helps. :S

Pancakey
23-01-2013, 16:52
Spears are fine. If you plan on taking a charge, the benifit is there. Also in protracted combats they will be a bit more killy, especially with light magic.

Moss
23-01-2013, 17:45
if you're taking two units, take one of each. Spear saurus excel at killing things fast, but obviously take more damage due to the lack of a ward. Just choose your battles wisely. Send your spears after enemy core units and your hw&s at anything tougher.

MR. GRUMPY
23-01-2013, 17:56
if you're taking two units, take one of each. Spear saurus excel at killing things fast, but obviously take more damage due to the lack of a ward. Just choose your battles wisely. Send your spears after enemy core units and your hw&s at anything tougher.

"Excel at killing things fast" is a bit to much I think. The diffrence is not that big. I would keep hw/shield, cheap is good.

Moss
24-01-2013, 00:02
Haha, yeah. That was probably too strongly worded, but I stand by my point.

Assuming 24 saurus against a horde of halberdiers.
HW&S - 6 kills - 3.8 deaths - 2.3 CR - 128pts/CR
Spears - 8 kills - 4.5 deaths - 3.5 CR - 91pts/CR

Those same saurus, but buffed by Speed of Light.
HW&S - 8.1 kills - 2.5 deaths - 5.6 CR - 53pts/CR
Spears - 10.8 kills - 3 deaths - 7.8 CR - 41pts/CR

You can say that spears net you "only" two more CR each round, but when you think about it, it's worth it. Against your average core unit, spears give you more bang for your buck. At 24 extra points for the unit, it's better than buying a War Banner. The difference isn't HUGE, but it's enough to warrant considering spears for one of your units.

quina2525
24-01-2013, 00:53
Cool, thanks for that bit of mathhammer. I decided to stick with spears in the end and painting has commenced! :)

dementian
24-01-2013, 00:59
Spears start losing attacks in 2 rounds of combat from suffering 9 wounds taking them down to 15 models so they only get 3 more attacks than the HW+S at that point.

As an aside 24 HW+S vs 24 Spears. The HW+S would win a dragged to annihilation combat :P

shortlegs
24-01-2013, 11:47
For a unit that already has 2 attacks base, spears do not increase the number of attacks by as significant a proportion as units with just 1 attack. When the attacks are situational (not charging, having enough models etc), cost points, and deny you the parry save, I don't think it is worth it. Especially not when there are so many other good places to be spending your points on in a LM army..

Sarael
25-01-2013, 04:55
I too prefer parry over spears. The only time spears are more useful is against an enemy which outnumbers you with large numbers of S3 infantry, and even then, Dwellers is more efficient at solving that problem for you.

AntaresCD
25-01-2013, 16:15
I agree that, especially backed by Lore of Light, you will probably be happier with HW + Shield, than Spears.


I remember taking on a WL chariot and saved 3/5 impact hits with parry saves :P
You can't take Parry Saves against Impact Hits or Stomp attacks (BRB, page 88). It's a common mistake.

The rules on Parry save that people tend to miss are:
-It is a Ward Save, so the normal rules on stacking (only use best) and modifying (MoT adding +1, for example) apply.
-It only applies to Close Combat attacks.
-It only applies to attacks from the front.
-It cannot be used against Impact Hits or Stomp attacks.
-It cannot be used if you are Frenzied.
-It cannot be used if you are mounted.
-It only applies if you are using both a mundane Shield and a normal, mundane Hand Weapon (i.e. a Magical Weapon and/or a Magical Shield causes you to lose it).

Terrenord
30-01-2013, 01:30
It's really situational. If you're going to take a horde of 40 to 50 Saurus, leave the spears at home. If youre going to take blocks of say 36 Saurus, 6 wide, spears come in handy. The extra attacks help in any situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caSadMYycr8

dementian
30-01-2013, 01:32
I agree that, especially backed by Lore of Light, you will probably be happier with HW + Shield, than Spears.


You can't take Parry Saves against Impact Hits or Stomp attacks (BRB, page 88). It's a common mistake.

The rules on Parry save that people tend to miss are:
-It is a Ward Save, so the normal rules on stacking (only use best) and modifying (MoT adding +1, for example) apply.
-It only applies to Close Combat attacks.
-It only applies to attacks from the front.
-It cannot be used against Impact Hits or Stomp attacks.
-It cannot be used if you are Frenzied.
-It cannot be used if you are mounted.
-It only applies if you are using both a mundane Shield and a normal, mundane Hand Weapon (i.e. a Magical Weapon and/or a Magical Shield causes you to lose it).

Ooo had all those rules down except the Impact Hits and Stomps...I will need to tell my group. Thanks Antares

Lance Tankmen
30-01-2013, 05:17
wheres it say no to impact hits and stomps?

dementian
30-01-2013, 13:12
No book on me so I am hoping someone posts the rules but I assumed since Parry works against CC attacks and Impact hits and Stomps are close combat attacks (albeit special close combat attacks) that the parry save would still work. So if Antares could post the page # we should be good.

Carny
30-01-2013, 16:41
Problem with spear is 3-fold.
you need more models(as you want more saurii alive to attack), making you a bigger target. You models are more expensive(spears cost points), making you a bigger target, your models are slighthly vulnerable (lacking a parry save) , making you an easier target.

AntaresCD
30-01-2013, 17:58
wheres it say no to impact hits and stomps?

No book on me so I am hoping someone posts the rules but I assumed since Parry works against CC attacks and Impact hits and Stomps are close combat attacks (albeit special close combat attacks) that the parry save would still work. So if Antares could post the page # we should be good.
I provided the page number in my post, but the specific quote is on page 88 of the BRB, under the Parry Save section, second paragraph, "...nor can it [a parry save] be used against Impact Hits or hits from Stomp attacks..."

All the points I made (except the last one) are explicitly listed in the 3 paragraphs on page 88 that deal with parry saves. The final point on magical weapons and shields disallowing parry saves can be found in the reference portion of the BRB in the Magic Weapons and Magic Armour sections, respectively (in both cases it's at the beginning in the second of two bullets).

Phenatix
30-01-2013, 22:36
Sooo, is there really any consensus on this tactical issue? Some say spears, some say HW+shield.... It seems that the wider and deeper you run, the better spears become. If you buff your saurus with light/life, then I think they're definitely better.

Moss
31-01-2013, 01:57
It depends on your list and playstyle. I use spears because they help my saurus do what I need them to do.

I use skinks to keep dangerous units away from my saurus, so I rarely miss the parry save. My saurus usually get to fight easy core units. I want them to kill lots of things and break steadfast as quickly as possible.

If my saurus don't kill the enemy, nothing will. While HW&S allow them to stick it out in a protracted fight, that isn't the goal. What is going to change between rounds two and three? My skinks aren't going to swing the combat in my favor by charging into the enemy's flank or anything.

Like I said, that is why *I* use spears. HW&S seems to work better for others.

Spiney Norman
06-02-2013, 13:30
I run a unit of both in my 2K army and above. Basically the size of the unit determines if spears will be useful, generally I work on the principle that up to 3 ranks hw/sh is fine, 4+ ranks I take spears. Given that Saurus are str 4 I think the spears are a fair deal at 1pt (given that a lot of other armies pay 1pt for spears at str3).

Of course the main deciding factor for me is that saurus with spears look way, way cooler than saurus with hand weapons.