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TheGreenShogun
23-01-2013, 14:12
A scenario happened in my last game.

My unit of chariots charged and destroyed a unit of minotaurs. The minotaurs broke, fled, and was run down. The chariots' pursuit move caused base contact with a Doombull behind. Because the majority of the chariots were in the flank arc of the Doombull, the chariots moved and aligned to face the Doombull in the flank. But it caused the chariots' rear to be wide open. Then on the next turn, his unit of Gors charged into the rear of the chariots. Many of the chariots were out of base contact with the Doombull (in fact, just Settra and 1 Chariot were in base contact) and the rest of the chariots (3 of them, if I recall correctly) in base contact with the Gors behind.

Now, the question, do the Gors in the rear get hit by the impact?

G=Gors
*=Chariots
D=Doombull
S=Settra



GGGGGG*
GGGGGG*
GGGGGG*
--------*
--------*D
--------S

Chariots facing right: --->


I've read the rules for pursuit into new enemies. There's also a mention that if both your unit and opponents are charging each others, I still get my impact hits.

It seems that as RAW, the Gors do get impact hits from charging into the rear, but my opponent thought it was a silly idea (I did too). I didn't want to appear as a rule lawyer, so I just let it go.

theunwantedbeing
23-01-2013, 14:17
Under the impact hits rules, models charged don't do impact hits.

Lance Tankmen
23-01-2013, 17:00
so random thought, whats the exact wording because would that mean the gors would stop the chariots impact hits all together or just not be hit themselves while the doombull gets impact hits.

Lord Inquisitor
23-01-2013, 18:21
Under the impact hits rules, models charged don't do impact hits.
This is wrong, you do impact hits when you charge. This is a common misconception thanks to some unfortunate wording in the impact hits rule.

This bit:


Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the mode with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then no impact hits are inflicted.

This is a little confusing because what it means is if you don't charge and get charged, you don't get the impacts because you're not charging, but it does seem to say you lose the impacts if charged.

It's spelled out more clearly on page 58.


This might result in both sides having charging units in the same fight, in which case the charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (e.g. causing impact hits...).

Now onto this precise question.

It's a good question. The way I see it the chariots shouldn't do impact hits to any unit they have not charged. That seems the most sensible answer. Having difficulty nailing the text down precisely but I'd say the first quote really suggests the chariots are not charging the gors but they are charging the doombull.

TheGreenShogun
23-01-2013, 22:20
Thank you all for your replies.



It's a good question. The way I see it the chariots shouldn't do impact hits to any unit they have not charged. That seems the most sensible answer. Having difficulty nailing the text down precisely but I'd say the first quote really suggests the chariots are not charging the gors but they are charging the doombull.

I agree. That's how we played. Settra and one other chariot get to inflict impact hits on the Doombull, but the gors behind didn't impacted.

T10
24-01-2013, 08:38
"This might result in both sides having charging units in the same fight, in which case the charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (e.g. causing impact hits...)."It seems to me that the above quote establishes that, as a general prinicple, it is indeed possible for units from opposite sides to count as charging, but it does not specifically address the situation where these units have charged each other.


"Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then no impact hits are inflicted."

Though the general rule for combats with chargers on both sides allow them to all benefit from counting as charging, the specific situation where a model with Impact Hits is both charging and being charged will cause it to lose his Impact hits.

As for the OP's question: No, the gors do not suffer Impact Hits. This is because the chariots that they are in contact with lose their Impact Hits since they have been charged (by the gors), as per the Impact Hits rules.

A follow-up question: Does a model count as being charged if his unit has been charged, or if the actual model is in base contact with a charging enemy?

Mid'ean
24-01-2013, 10:52
Have to agree with LI. That is the way we play it in our area. I can see the other sides argument. I just think it bad writing by GW....again....:rolleyes:

Lord Inquisitor
24-01-2013, 13:57
"This might result in both sides having charging units in the same fight, in which case the charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (e.g. causing impact hits...)."It seems to me that the above quote establishes that, as a general prinicple, it is indeed possible for units from opposite sides to count as charging, but it does not specifically address the situation where these units have charged each other.


"Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then no impact hits are inflicted."

Though the general rule for combats with chargers on both sides allow them to all benefit from counting as charging, the specific situation where a model with Impact Hits is both charging and being charged will cause it to lose his Impact hits.

As for the OP's question: No, the gors do not suffer Impact Hits. This is because the chariots that they are in contact with lose their Impact Hits since they have been charged (by the gors), as per the Impact Hits rules.

A follow-up question: Does a model count as being charged if his unit has been charged, or if the actual model is in base contact with a charging enemy?

I do not think this is the correct reading of the rules. The quote on page 71 is specifically talking about the situations where a unit is not considered to be charging. Under the normal course of events, you are not charging if you are charged! p58 explicitly states you get impact hits for charging in the specific situation of an overrun charge out of sequence.

I understand your logic but step back and look at the context of both rules. This doesn't require a tricky reading of the rules. You've come to a conclusion that doesn't make a lot of sense and you can easily reconcile the two by realising p71 is talking about a simple situation of two units while p58 gives crystal clear instruction that you DO get impacts if you are charging.

If there's two interpretations to a given issue and one requires careful reading to follow and comes to an illogical conclusion - that's probably not the right one!

AntaresCD
24-01-2013, 16:50
"This might result in both sides having charging units in the same fight, in which case the charging units on both sides will get the normal bonuses conferred by charging (e.g. causing impact hits...)."
It seems to me that the above quote establishes that, as a general prinicple, it is indeed possible for units from opposite sides to count as charging, but it does not specifically address the situation where these units have charged each other.
"Impact Hits are only made on the turn the model charges into close combat. If the model with Impact Hits is itself charged, or is fighting in a second or subsequent round of combat, then no impact hits are inflicted."

Though the general rule for combats with chargers on both sides allow them to all benefit from counting as charging, the specific situation where a model with Impact Hits is both charging and being charged will cause it to lose his Impact hits.

As for the OP's question: No, the gors do not suffer Impact Hits. This is because the chariots that they are in contact with lose their Impact Hits since they have been charged (by the gors), as per the Impact Hits rules.

A follow-up question: Does a model count as being charged if his unit has been charged, or if the actual model is in base contact with a charging enemy?
I can understand how you came to that conclusion T10, as I used to think that as well, but the reasoning LI stated is correct. This is supported by an entry from the Empire FAQ:

Q: If an enemy chariot charges a Regimental Unit and one or more
of its Detachments makes a successful Counter Charge, does the
chariot still get to make Impact Hits? (p30)
A: Yes, though the chariotís Impact Hits can only be assigned
to the Regimental Unit.

Barring rare cases like the OP's situation, the other most common occurance of a charger in turn being charged before the combat starts is a counter charge by a detachment. By your logic, a detachment counter charge would always exclude the impact hits onto the regimental unit that was charged.

The two interpretations:
1) You get Impact Hits only on the unit you charged, on the round you count as charging, but you lose them if you are in turn charged.
2) You get Impact Hits only on the unit you charged, on the round you count as charging. Peiod. Being in turn charged does not affect your Impact Hits.

Interpretation 1 seems more correct from a straight reading, but 2 is more correct when context is taken into account. The Empire FAQ entry confirms that 2 is the correct interpretation.

theunwantedbeing
24-01-2013, 17:58
The two interpretations:
1) You get Impact Hits only on the unit you charged, on the round you count as charging, but you lose them if you are in turn charged.
2) You get Impact Hits only on the unit you charged, on the round you count as charging. Peiod. Being in turn charged does not affect your Impact Hits.

Interpretation 1 seems more correct from a straight reading, but 2 is more correct when context is taken into account. The Empire FAQ entry confirms that 2 is the correct interpretation.

While I agree that interpretation 2 is the correct one, I do not agree that an army specific FAQ applies to anything other than what the FAQ is answering.

The impact hit rules need an Errata.