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M'ichal
24-01-2013, 23:40
Hi,

I stumbled upon this:

"Mortarion's Heart is an upcoming audio drama in the Space Marine Battles (Novel Series) by Laurie Goulding. It is scheduled for publication in August 2013."

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mortarion%27s_Heart_(Audio_Book)

MajorWesJanson
25-01-2013, 00:04
Oh, this is not good. Get ready for yet another round of Ward bashing, if the title means what I think it does.

Scribe of Khorne
25-01-2013, 01:44
Gotta be a joke, that fluff is a farce anyway.

shadowhawk2008
25-01-2013, 02:19
Gotta be a joke, that fluff is a farce anyway.

It's not a joke. Laurie has previously confirmed it elsewhere.

Rogue Star
25-01-2013, 02:38
That particularly terrible bit of background, with a (to me) new, and untested author? I'd be lying if I didn't say I was worried.

M'ichal
25-01-2013, 03:39
...with a (to me) new, and untested author?

That's what the SMB range is for.

DarkWarrior1981
25-01-2013, 07:38
Mr. Goulding is not new as such, he has written several short stories and is also one of the editiors of the BL. It appears hw knows what he is wirting about and if I recall correctly his short stories were not to bad either.

On a side note, what is bad/wrong about the title and the background corresponding to it?

Spider-pope
25-01-2013, 08:05
Mr. Goulding is not new as such, he has written several short stories and is also one of the editiors of the BL. It appears hw knows what he is wirting about and if I recall correctly his short stories were not to bad either.

On a side note, what is bad/wrong about the title and the background corresponding to it?

It likely refers to a daft bit of fluff from the Grey Knights codex, where their Chapter Master is lost in the warp and manages to not only reach Mortarion on his Daemon world but beat him and then carve his name into his heart.

Soul Hunter
25-01-2013, 09:43
It likely refers to a daft bit of fluff from the Grey Knights codex, where their Chapter Master is lost in the warp and manages to not only reach Mortarion on his Daemon world but beat him and then carve his name into his heart.
Not exactly.

Mortarion and the Death Guard invaded realspace and battled the Grey Knights. Grand Master Geronitan died fighting Mortarion and his successor, Kaldor Draigo, then defeated Mortarion and carved his master's name into the Daemon's heart as revenge. He did not hunt Mortarion on a Daemon World, and most definitely not Mortarion's own Daemon World.


SH

Rogue Star
25-01-2013, 10:14
On a side note, what is bad/wrong about the title and the background corresponding to it?


The Battle of Kornovin, 901.M41
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.

Basically, a lone Terminator-sized guy smashed through several Typhus-like bodyguards, and then smacked Mortarion to the floor - who is about the size of the Forgeworld Keeper of Secrets model, at least - before climbing up on his chest and taking the time to carve "Geronitan" into it. We can then assume Mortarion rolled over and ran away, because if Draigo then killed him I'd call that a questionable escape, even if it does banish him to the Warp...

HereticHammer01
25-01-2013, 10:33
I don't like the fluff but maybe they can salvage it into something that turns out okay...maybe.

Yeah wasn't it at a BL weekender Laurie Golding mentioned it. Wonder what the reaction to it was like?

LokkoRex
25-01-2013, 11:29
i... i... i'm speechless.

they're gonna do an audio drama about this? the worst piece of badly written fluff in the entire grey knight codex?

someone, please tell me it's a bad april fools joke.

Soul Hunter
25-01-2013, 11:59
Basically, a lone Terminator-sized guy smashed through several Typhus-like bodyguards, and then smacked Mortarion to the floor - who is about the size of the Forgeworld Keeper of Secrets model, at least - before climbing up on his chest and taking the time to carve "Geronitan" into it. We can then assume Mortarion rolled over and ran away, because if Draigo then killed him I'd call that a questionable escape, even if it does banish him to the Warp...

Ok I really don't get that. Why is it that everybody seems to think Draigo is just some random Terminator marine and that he just bitch-slapped Mortarion and then carved his dead master's name into the Daemon's chest and then walked off in slow motion. Does nobody stop to consider that Draigo is the Supreme. Grand. Master. Of the Grey Knights. The guys whose very presence hurts Daemons, who are humanity's greatest weapons against Chaos. And who carry the Emperor of Man's gene-seed within them. Draigo is the greatest of all of them, and the Daemon Primarchs are not invincible. So if anybody could defeat one then it'd have to be Draigo. I mean Hector Rex beat An'ggrath the Unbound and that guy is even stronger than Angron, and Rex is just a human. And that Draigo was likely not alone and likely had an entire brotherhood or multiple brotherhoods backing him up or giving him space to fight Mortarion while they dealt with the Death Guard.

And even if you don't believe that the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights could defeat Mortarion, then do you really think that he couldn't beat the Deathshroud??


SH

ArgelTal
25-01-2013, 12:31
Ok I really don't get that. Why is it that everybody seems to think Draigo is just some random Terminator marine and that he just bitch-slapped Mortarion and then carved his dead master's name into the Daemon's chest and then walked off in slow motion. Does nobody stop to consider that Draigo is the Supreme. Grand. Master. Of the Grey Knights. The guys whose very presence hurts Daemons, who are humanity's greatest weapons against Chaos. And who carry the Emperor of Man's gene-seed within them. Draigo is the greatest of all of them, and the Daemon Primarchs are not invincible. So if anybody could defeat one then it'd have to be Draigo. I mean Hector Rex beat An'ggrath the Unbound and that guy is even stronger than Angron, and Rex is just a human. And that Draigo was likely not alone and likely had an entire brotherhood or multiple brotherhoods backing him up or giving him space to fight Mortarion while they dealt with the Death Guard.

And even if you don't believe that the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights could defeat Mortarion, then do you really think that he couldn't beat the Deathshroud??


SH

Rule No.1 of warseer - there must be at least one discussion complaining about every single thing that GW or BL do at all times, otherwise the internet would implode.....

I'm completely ambivalent on this - haven't read the fluff so can't get worked up about it. Have only read Laurie's Ogre story from the BLW anthology so far and that was well enough written so this has every chance of being ok. Either way, it isn't like the whole UNIVERSE will come crashing down around my ears if I don't like it.....

Rogue Star
25-01-2013, 13:35
Ok I really don't get that. Why is it that everybody seems to think Draigo is just some random Terminator marine and that he just bitch-slapped Mortarion and then carved his dead master's name into the Daemon's chest and then walked off in slow motion. Does nobody stop to consider that Draigo is the Supreme. Grand. Master. Of the Grey Knights. The guys whose very presence hurts Daemons, who are humanity's greatest weapons against Chaos. And who carry the Emperor of Man's gene-seed within them. Draigo is the greatest of all of them, and the Daemon Primarchs are not invincible. So if anybody could defeat one then it'd have to be Draigo. I mean Hector Rex beat An'ggrath the Unbound and that guy is even stronger than Angron, and Rex is just a human. And that Draigo was likely not alone and likely had an entire brotherhood or multiple brotherhoods backing him up or giving him space to fight Mortarion while they dealt with the Death Guard.

And even if you don't believe that the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights could defeat Mortarion, then do you really think that he couldn't beat the Deathshroud??


SH

Ah this again. I am well aware that Kaldor Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. I am aware he is basically a Chapter Master in Terminator Armour, boosted by the addition of a Psychic Mastery comparable to other Chapter's Chief Librarians. The fact you think it is a matter of "well he couldn't beat up this guy", is more worrying.

Why is Kaldor Draigo not in charge, if Mortarion can slay this Geronitan? Surely given how we're told of the physical and mental duels to advance, Kaldor should already be leading, given he "smashed" the Deathshroud aside, and "struck" Mortarion to the ground. It also outright states, he did this feat alone and unaided.

Mortarion magically escapes from this, because... I dunno, standing atop him and carving someone's name into his hearty, whilst extremely silly and childish, would certainly indicate the subject is pinned and at your mercy.

In short, if you think the above is terrible just because people can't wrap their heads around Draigo defeating Mortarion and company? Wow... just wow... I mean seriously...


The Battle of Kornovin, 901.M41
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. At the head of a hundred strong force of Grey Knight Terminators, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, before striking the encircled Primarch to the ground and carving Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.

You're telling me that is now acceptable, or fine? Mortarion magically escaping, and Draigo carving someone's name on to his heart? :eyebrows:

M'ichal
25-01-2013, 14:29
Rogue Star, your post is kinda hard to read. I am not advocating the GK fluff but I also don't see why it's so ultimately impossible.

"It also outright states, he did this feat alone and unaided." - no it doesn't, at least not the excerpt quoted. It says "At the head of a hundred strong force of Grey Knight Terminators [that's a company...of GK TERMINATORS], Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, before striking the encircled Primarch to the ground and carving Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart."

"Why is Kaldor Draigo not in charge, if Mortarion can slay this Geronitan?" - Rank doesn't always imply power. A subordinate may be more powerful than his master but proper obedience has to be in place and certain steps have to happen in order for him to take charge (often the death of the master). This is prevalent in many hierarchies.

In Battle for the Fang, Magnus takes quite a beating albeit from a chapter master, a psyker (or was it a chaplain, can't remember) and Bjorn. It might seem like a bit more balanced battle than what the GK codex describes regarding Mortarion vs. Draigo but still - it shows even a primarch can get it. And they both escape, for whatever reason. Don't forget that Mortarion just fought the GK chapter master before Draigo - perhaps he's already taken many injuries from a taxing fight before Draigo stepped in?

Heck, Sauron got defeated with one strike from Isildur...

c'mon guys...it's not THAT controversial.

Rogue Star
25-01-2013, 14:53
Rogue Star, your post is kinda hard to read.

It's an insulting example of "my creation is so hard/awesome/cool, I'm going to make him condescendingly beat up an already established character".

Also, you're quoting back my edited example (with the GK company). My first post has the original. I was demonstrating it's not how hard the task was, rather than manner.

Carving names on to your foes, is a childish, hubristic characteristic, in anyone. Considering the character is suppose to be an examplar of the Grey Knights, who are again, supposedly the most humble of Space Marines, takes it into parody. This is the kind of 'writing' you'd expect a twelve year old to create, after he slapped two powerfists with underslung heavy bolters onto his Space Marine Captain model.

M'ichal
25-01-2013, 15:33
...after he slapped two powerfists with underslung heavy bolters onto his Space Marine Captain model.

So after he created Flesh Tearers' Amit conversion? =)

MiyamatoMusashi
25-01-2013, 15:36
"It also outright states, he did this feat alone and unaided." - no it doesn't, at least not the excerpt quoted. It says "At the head of a hundred strong force of Grey Knight Terminators [that's a company...of GK TERMINATORS], Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, before striking the encircled Primarch to the ground and carving Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart."

Here's the word-for-word quote from the printed Grey Knight Codex, not Rogue Star's adjustment which made it less ridiculous but still utterly ridiculous:


Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.

On his own. One guy. Alone and unaided. Beat not only the entirety of Mortarion's bodyguard, but Mortarion himself. Easily. One after the other, without a pause in between. I know Draigo is a Grey Knight. I know he's the Chapter Master. He's up against A DAEMON PRIMARCH. Draigo has the Emperor's blood in him? Ooooooh, scary, Mortarion is THE EMPEROR'S OWN GENETIC OFFSPRING with the power of the Chaos Gods involved in his very creation, developed by gene-artisans who had knowledge forgotten for the last ten thousand years but Mortarion has spent that time smashing s--t up and progressing along the path of Chaos so far he became a daemon. And not only did Draigo simply beat him, he decided to do the 40K equivalent of teabagging. Because it was so damn easy.

I don't know about you, but I don't find that kind of brick-subtle, childish writing, at all interesting (and the fact it's contrary to the entire established background just makes it actively insulting). If you think it's alright, I mean, OK, good luck to you, but I really don't think I can explain to you how utterly, utterly terrible it is if it's not already immediately apparent. In my view it is literally and self-evidently the single worst piece of background GW have ever published (and that's despite some stiff competition for the rest of the GK Codex). If they had any collective sense they'd never mention it again and pretend it never got written, but instead they're going to publish someone's story about it...? Well, whatever, I know I won't be buying, but I've no right to stop anyone writing what they want... I'll only say that even George Lucas had the good sense to fade out Jar Jar Binks in episodes two and three. GW apparently don't even realise when they've created something dreadful.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
25-01-2013, 15:46
I am aware he is basically a Chapter Master in Terminator Armour, boosted by the addition of a Psychic Mastery comparable to other Chapter's Chief Librarians.
Considering his knowledge and equipment (all of which is designed around fighting Daemons) he is much more potent (against Daemons at least) than a Chief Librarian or Chapter Master would be. He also may be considerably beyond them in sheer Psychic power since, well, Psyker abilities are immensely variable. That and he was fighting against a foe that was probably already weakened by the previous Supreme Grand Master, we don't know what was happening in regards to Warp influence on the area, and we're talking about a battle on which all the Grey Knight Grand Masters are present (or Draigo had already been nominated as a successor) for Draigo to be promoted on the field of battle.


Carving names on to your foes, is a childish, hubristic characteristic, in anyone.
That names have power, especially in regards to Daemons, is pretty heavily reinforced in the Grey Knights Codex. It may well have been a part of some sort of ritual to banish Mortarion for longer or some such. He almost certainly was banished, since it was many years since he could enter the Materium again.


Beat not only the entirety of Mortarion's bodyguard, but Mortarion himself.
As far as we know, Mortarions bodyguard is the Deathshroud. That's two guys. Powerful, no doubt, but by no means unbeatable.

Ooooooh, scary, Mortarion is THE EMPEROR'S OWN GENETIC OFFSPRING with the power of the Chaos Gods involved in his very creation
We don't know if the Chaos Gods were involved in his creation. Besides the fact, Mortarion is now Daemon. How much of his original gene strength would be still have? If he's banished (possibly prior to the incident with Draigo) does he still get to retain all that power the Emperor imbued them with, or does he lose it with his body? Besides the fact, becoming a Daemon Primarch makes you immortal (so long as you don't anger your patron) but you also get handed a set of weaknesses and restrictions. You're dependent on the how much the Warp is affecting an area of the Materium for you to enter it, your true name is seemingly more potent when used against you and various equipment is designed to repel you just by its existence. Daemonhood isn't just a powerboost.


In my view it is literally and self-evidently the single worst piece of background GW have ever published (and that's despite some stiff competition for the rest of the GK Codex)
Really? What about a single Zoanthrope taking down an entire Craftworld by breaching their most precious area no less?

Besides, writing a story about it is most likely to try to explain how it happened, and make it seem more reasonable to people who thing it's ridiculous.

M'ichal
25-01-2013, 16:00
ok

so "Alone and unaided" does make it more implausible but I don't know...it depends on the context. It could mean that he's 2 metres away from Mortarion, smashes through 3 dudes who are busy fighting off other terminators and by the time they notice what he's doing, he's already on Mortarion...

Like I said before, I'm not saying it's a great idea, but I also don't see why it's so impossible. Just kinda neutral about it.

"the fact it's contrary to the entire established background" - what is established and how is this story contrary to it? I am genuinely asking, as I don't have much knowledge about these characters, so I'd be curious to learn more. Was there an earlier story that presented this encounter differently or prevented it from happening entirely?

SomeRandomEvilGuy
25-01-2013, 16:49
"the fact it's contrary to the entire established background" - what is established and how is this story contrary to it? I am genuinely asking, as I don't have much knowledge about these characters, so I'd be curious to learn more. Was there an earlier story that presented this encounter differently or prevented it from happening entirely?
The encounter was never mentioned before. I think there was something about Mortarion staying on his Daemonworld, but I think there's been a conscious change from only Angron doing much to a fair few of the Daemon Primarchs attacking the Imperium (Magnus and Perturabo have also both launched raids, although for Magnus that was a personal vendetta). I think he's generally implying that the power of the Daemon Primarchs would prevent them from being defeated in a one-on-one by a mere Space Marine. Also Angron and his 12 Bloodthirster retinue (and the Daemons around them) took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to take down, but that's a great deal more forces than Mortarion was described as having).

Basically it comes down to personal opinion about the power of Daemon Primarchs.

Soul Hunter
25-01-2013, 17:15
Ah this again. I am well aware that Kaldor Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. I am aware he is basically a Chapter Master in Terminator Armour, boosted by the addition of a Psychic Mastery comparable to other Chapter's Chief Librarians. The fact you think it is a matter of "well he couldn't beat up this guy", is more worrying.

Why is Kaldor Draigo not in charge, if Mortarion can slay this Geronitan? Surely given how we're told of the physical and mental duels to advance, Kaldor should already be leading, given he "smashed" the Deathshroud aside, and "struck" Mortarion to the ground. It also outright states, he did this feat alone and unaided.

Mortarion magically escapes from this, because... I dunno, standing atop him and carving someone's name into his hearty, whilst extremely silly and childish, would certainly indicate the subject is pinned and at your mercy.


Ok first off, it is not a case of that. It is a case of people seeming to believe that the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights is a pushover who can't kill some Chaos Terminators and fight a Daemon, albeit a Daemon Primarch but still a Daemon.

The Emperor's Gift showed that the Grey Knights are political creatures, for them rank is a very important thing that you DON'T disrespect. Take the Grand Master in that book, Joros of the 8th. It was mentioned he was only a champion who took command after the previous Grand Master died but by GK rules, that makes him their new Grand Master. No voting, no nominations, no candidates. Whomever takes leadership, is the leader. Same for Draigo apparantely, once Geronitan was dead he took command and it was undisputed. But before that Geronitan was in charge and that was that, doesn't matter if one of his subordinates is better than him, he is in command and will be until he passes.

Perhaps he managed to break his bonds and chose to escape rather than risk being bested again, plus I would imagine whatever they used to bind him weakened him and made it so he had to return to the Warp to recover his strength.



On his own. One guy. Alone and unaided. Beat not only the entirety of Mortarion's bodyguard, but Mortarion himself. Easily. One after the other, without a pause in between. I know Draigo is a Grey Knight. I know he's the Chapter Master. He's up against A DAEMON PRIMARCH. Draigo has the Emperor's blood in him? Ooooooh, scary, Mortarion is THE EMPEROR'S OWN GENETIC OFFSPRING with the power of the Chaos Gods involved in his very creation, developed by gene-artisans who had knowledge forgotten for the last ten thousand years but Mortarion has spent that time smashing s--t up and progressing along the path of Chaos so far he became a daemon. And not only did Draigo simply beat him, he decided to do the 40K equivalent of teabagging. Because it was so damn easy.


Reading this it seems like you think the Daemon Primarchs are so powerful that nobody in 40k should be able to defeat them. They've been beaten before and they'd have to be defeatable. If Angron and Fulgrim and the others couldn't be bested the Imperium would have fallen long before Draigo ever arrived. But clearly they can be beaten. And yes Mortarion is a DAEMON PRIMARCH, emphasis on the DAEMON part. As in he now has the weaknesses of a Daemon that he did not have before. Requiring energy to manifest in realspace, weakness to blessed wargear and the Emperor's presence, being more affected by psyker powers, and susceptibility to all the kinds of exorcisms and etc that can harm and banish Daemons.


SH

Scribe of Khorne
25-01-2013, 17:46
Regardless of how they try and portray it, unless its a huge retcon of some type, I'll give it a massive pass while thinking 'kill it with fire!' if I see it in a store. Its cheap fluff, worse then most fan fiction, simple as that, so how they can spin that into an audio drama (a medium I dislike anyway!) and make it worthwhile, is beyond me, just like accepting that a marine can best a Daemon Primarch.

MajorWesJanson
25-01-2013, 18:17
just like accepting that a marine can best a Daemon Primarch.

You must have missed the Battle of the Fang, where first an individual Wolf Guard managed to wound Magnus, then he gets mauled by a Rune Priest, Wolf Lord, and Bjorn, before getting drop kicked off a cliff by the Great Wolf. Yes, they took losses, but mere mortals did a number on Magnus, second only to Russ himself.

Then there was the First battle of Armegeddon, where a group of GKs take on Angron and his retinue of Bloodthirsters and banish him.

Daemon Primarchs are very powerful, but they are not invincible, and Grey Knights are sort of designed to fight daemons. But this is more suited for background section, or at least wait until this audio novel is out before claiming it ruins the fluff for all time.

M'ichal
25-01-2013, 18:25
You must have missed the Battle of the Fang, where first an individual Wolf Guard managed to wound Magnus, then he gets mauled by a Rune Priest, Wolf Lord, and Bjorn, before getting drop kicked off a cliff by the Great Wolf. Yes, they took losses, but mere mortals did a number on Magnus, second only to Russ himself.

Then there was the First battle of Armegeddon, where a group of GKs take on Angron and his retinue of Bloodthirsters and banish him.

Daemon Primarchs are very powerful, but they are not invincible, and Grey Knights are sort of designed to fight daemons. But this is more suited for background section, or at least wait until this audio novel is out before claiming it ruins the fluff for all time.

LOL, I was JUST gonna post the same Battle of the Fang example. hehe

Scribe of Khorne
25-01-2013, 18:39
No I caught the Fang. Where Magnus absorbed a ton of damage until he decided to use his strength and obliterate things. Its been awhile but I get a sense that it was a case of Magnus not knowing his own power.

EDIT: Besides, we arent talking 'wounded' or even beat! We are talking beat, opened up and carved a name into the heart of a Daemon. Do Daemons have organs? Do Primarchs have hearts?

We arent talking about Draigo landing a punch, cutting off a limb, or anything else. We are talking defeating to the point of HOLDING DOWN AND CARVING A NAME INTO A DAEMON PRIMARCHS HEART.

This is simply a matter of scale. Its over the top, and its simply brutal fluff.

Elric
25-01-2013, 19:01
No I caught the Fang. Where Magnus absorbed a ton of damage until he decided to use his strength and obliterate things. Its been awhile but I get a sense that it was a case of Magnus not knowing his own power.

EDIT: Besides, we arent talking 'wounded' or even beat! We are talking beat, opened up and carved a name into the heart of a Daemon. Do Daemons have organs? Do Primarchs have hearts?

We arent talking about Draigo landing a punch, cutting off a limb, or anything else. We are talking defeating to the point of HOLDING DOWN AND CARVING A NAME INTO A DAEMON PRIMARCHS HEART.

This is simply a matter of scale. Its over the top, and its simply brutal fluff.

Wow
the nerd rage in your post is almost palpable.
look none of this is any more (or less) silly than the almost death of the Emperor via an Ork warlord. In fact it's no more stupid than any of the current or past background material that has ever been published.
40K has and always will be (hopefully) a giant ironic joke. None of it is meant to be taken seriously, ever. the universe has never been internally consistent, logical or even believable.
I wonder if some of the posters got cross watching the roadrunner cartoons and write letters to trading standards about acme.

meep meep.

Scribe of Khorne
25-01-2013, 19:14
No, you see I do get it, just go look at my first post.


Gotta be a joke, that fluff is a farce anyway.

Why they would choose to throw good money after bad in this case boggles the mind, thats all. If you approach the background and setting with disdain thats totally fair, I dont care how you view it, its your opinion.

At the end of the day however the setting needs some internal rules, or the concept of fiction set in that setting begins to fall apart. And again, if you are of that opinion thats totally within your rights. I feel however its a waste of a perfectly good game universe/setting, that simply due to its age and scope has potential for great depth, and fluff like Ward's Draigo degrades it.

Rogue Star
25-01-2013, 19:15
Wow
the nerd rage in your post is almost palpable.
look none of this is any more (or less) silly than the almost death of the Emperor via an Ork warlord. In fact it's no more stupid than any of the current or past background material that has ever been published.
40K has and always will be (hopefully) a giant ironic joke. None of it is meant to be taken seriously, ever. the universe has never been internally consistent, logical or even believable.
I wonder if some of the posters got cross watching the roadrunner cartoons and write letters to trading standards about acme.

meep meep.

Suggesting all of 40K is silly, is in itself, very silly. 40K can cover all ends of the spectrum. For all the silly bits, there are an equal number of well thought out, downright lovecraftian horrific bits, some heart-aching moments of loss, etc.

Brother Dimetrius
25-01-2013, 19:25
Delicious. I'm looking forward to this, as our little corner of the internet tears each other apart over relative power levels of 40k characters like 12 year olds discussion Pokemons.

I'm actually taking it as a tacit admission that the GK codex fluff is indeed silly, and an attempt to put it into proper context by de-Wardifying it. Or it's just some guys at BL trolling the hell out of the internet. Either way, I approve.

ArtificerArmour
25-01-2013, 19:47
I hope mortarions heart is some artifact that is not actually his heart.

This book may actually rescue this horrible bit of fluff.

Elric
25-01-2013, 20:06
Suggesting all of 40K is silly, is in itself, very silly. 40K can cover all ends of the spectrum. For all the silly bits, there are an equal number of well thought out, downright lovecraftian horrific bits, some heart-aching moments of loss, etc.

Ok, i'll bite.
i was going to ask you to quote me one whole element of rational internally consistent background. I'm not going to because what will inevitably happen is you'll post something, I'll disagree and we'll both end up wasting our time when I'm sure we've both got more fun things to be doing on a Friday night.
So I'll say this to clarfiy my thoughts. 40K has always been a true British (perhaps English) tragic comedy. The real world is bleak enough to be horrific and heart aching and the 40k background subverts this. It takes the brutality of the modern world and ramps it up to 11 making it a farce.

If you're not convinced, read the following line, literally, and tell me that it isn't all a big joke.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war

Poncho160
25-01-2013, 21:09
Here is hoping the Black Library rescue this bad bit of fiction and turn it into something believable.

There is a million ways they could expand on that one (hated by many) paragraph and turn it into a good story.

M'ichal
25-01-2013, 21:16
There is a million ways they could expand on that one (hated by many) paragraph and turn it into a good story.

All I was saying...

Chapters Unwritten
25-01-2013, 21:19
I find that line to be rather serious. It was more so in 4th edition, when the game was still a dark sea of endless futile bloodshed and the bad guys were all powerful and pushing in. That all changed with 5th and has gotten even fussier with 6th. Now the Space Marines are these generic, disney-ified heroes who always save the day. The Daemon Primarchs -- who, let's face it, should pretty much be the most horrific single combatants in the canon -- being reduced to punching bags who the good guys troll for LOLs to establish just how awesome they are. In the process Chaos gets fluff-nerfed and it becomes foolish.

I learned a lot about this from wrestling, believe it or not (I know, bear with me). In wrestling making sure your new guys are credible versus your popular-but-aging guys is actually a major part of the business. Most new guys get built up and fight an established wrestler and that wrestler (unless they are a jerk, like Hogan and Nash, heh) is expected to make the new guy look good. Now, it's an art form; you make him look TOO good, people cry BS and feel like the guy is being shoved down their throats. You make him get beat too easy and the fans never take him seriously.

In the minds of the audience, the idea isn't that he has to win; far from it. It just has to be clear that he is a credible threat to an established superstar. The best wrestlers always had some veteran before them do this well. Frankly, these days, they don't do a good job of it at all. They take the Draigo approach, and make a guy you've never heard of come out and unrealistically smash a character you've been watching be at the top of the heap for a long time. It would have been so much better if Draigo had narrowly won the battle (as the GKs who fought Angron did...famously that story was that 100 entered the fray and that only two survived the battle, IIRC). It would have been even better if they lost, but mortally wounded Mortarion or somehow managed to stem the battle. Instead, we have this over-the-top smash where the bad guy we all have been conditioned to think is one of the scariest single combatants in the galaxy gets punked, seemingly with ease. What's happening with Draigo is the same thing that happens with wrestlers, believe it or not -- we don't buy him as the epic hero they depict him as, because he had no struggle and it's not credible that he did what he did.

I mean frankly the story is a joke. No Primarch daemon or otherwise should be held down long enough to have a three or four syllable name carved into an internal organ. I can imagine this delightfully vague bit of fluff in a lot of ways and reconcile it, but I have to work awful hard to get there, and no matter how I do, it doesn't make me like Draigo...it makes me hate him, and want Mortarion to whip his ass in a future book.

Londinium
25-01-2013, 22:07
I hope mortarions heart is some artifact that is not actually his heart.

This book may actually rescue this horrible bit of fluff.

I hope to god this.

Sqallum
26-01-2013, 11:10
It is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but there is no way you can justify it. Kaldor Draigo may be the Master of the Grey Knights, but to batter Big M's bodyguard(!!!), and then carve his name onto MORTARTION'S HEART? WTF?

Spider-pope
26-01-2013, 11:34
You must have missed the Battle of the Fang, where first an individual Wolf Guard managed to wound Magnus, then he gets mauled by a Rune Priest, Wolf Lord, and Bjorn, before getting drop kicked off a cliff by the Great Wolf. Yes, they took losses, but mere mortals did a number on Magnus, second only to Russ himself.

Then there was the First battle of Armegeddon, where a group of GKs take on Angron and his retinue of Bloodthirsters and banish him.

Daemon Primarchs are very powerful, but they are not invincible, and Grey Knights are sort of designed to fight daemons. But this is more suited for background section, or at least wait until this audio novel is out before claiming it ruins the fluff for all time.

In the case of Angron it was an entire company of GK terminators, who all died in the process. The difference here really is the whole carving the name into his heart thing. It implies Mortarion was at Draigo's mercy for a fair bit of time. This combined with it being a new character with an already dubious past time renders the whole thing daft.

I don't envy the audio's writer, because regardless of its quality it'll attract a lot of criticism solely because of the pre-existing distaste for this snippet of fluff.

Tymell
26-01-2013, 11:55
On his own. One guy. Alone and unaided. Beat not only the entirety of Mortarion's bodyguard, but Mortarion himself. Easily. One after the other, without a pause in between. I know Draigo is a Grey Knight. I know he's the Chapter Master. He's up against A DAEMON PRIMARCH. Draigo has the Emperor's blood in him? Ooooooh, scary, Mortarion is THE EMPEROR'S OWN GENETIC OFFSPRING with the power of the Chaos Gods involved in his very creation, developed by gene-artisans who had knowledge forgotten for the last ten thousand years but Mortarion has spent that time smashing s--t up and progressing along the path of Chaos so far he became a daemon. And not only did Draigo simply beat him, he decided to do the 40K equivalent of teabagging. Because it was so damn easy.

I don't know about you, but I don't find that kind of brick-subtle, childish writing, at all interesting (and the fact it's contrary to the entire established background just makes it actively insulting). If you think it's alright, I mean, OK, good luck to you, but I really don't think I can explain to you how utterly, utterly terrible it is if it's not already immediately apparent. In my view it is literally and self-evidently the single worst piece of background GW have ever published (and that's despite some stiff competition for the rest of the GK Codex). If they had any collective sense they'd never mention it again and pretend it never got written, but instead they're going to publish someone's story about it...? Well, whatever, I know I won't be buying, but I've no right to stop anyone writing what they want... I'll only say that even George Lucas had the good sense to fade out Jar Jar Binks in episodes two and three. GW apparently don't even realise when they've created something dreadful.

This. This this this this this this this. MiyamatoMusashi takes the words right out of my mouth (or rather, off my keyboard)

I'm genuinely shocked if this is true, and if it -is- about what we think it is. Who knows, maybe this will retcon the whole thing? It'd get my vote then ;)

But if not, I can't believe BL are actually following up what is easily one of the stupidest bits of background ever written. The whole "Mortarion's Heart" thing is closer to a parody of badly-written background than the real thing, it's what you use as the perfect example of bad writing. And now it's going to be given the audio drama (farce?) treatment?

I'm just going to sit and hope that it -will- retcon the whole thing :p

Havarel
26-01-2013, 12:57
I'm looking forward to this in that it'll add some context to the event and hopefully people will stop whining about it.

It amazes me how people on Warseer take every bit of background as literally as if it were a technical manual (or as seriously as if it were the actual rules for 40k viewed through a WAAC filter). Most of the stories in the Rulebooks/Codexes are exactly that; stories. Heroic tales and stories, exaggerated and embellished. It's supposed to be a heroic, inspiring tale of heroism which comes from a point of view biased heavily in favour of the Grey Knights. It's not a literal step-by-step-replay of how something actually, definitely, indisputably happened. Of course it's ridiculous that even Draigo pulled this off as it's written; but it's more ridiculous for someone to take it deadly serious. Other things will be happening in the battle. Other Grey Knights might be fighting the Deathshroud; Mortarion might have fought a lot of Grey Knights before fighting Geronitan and be in a really bad shape by the time Draigo gets to him. Without more context we don't know and judging it based entirely off the bit of background in the GK codex is stupid.

MiyamatoMusashi
26-01-2013, 13:31
Without more context we don't know and judging it based entirely off the bit of background in the GK codex is stupid.

We can only judge what they provide us with.

Saying "yes, but it WOULD be good if only we knew something else that made it good" means you cannot possibly judge anything at all. Because by that metric, nothing, ever, can be declared to be anything other than amazing.

If the only way to accept something is to turn off the entirety of your critical faculties, it's usually most appropriate to go with the simplest explanation, which is that it's bad writing; rather than desperately seek to find an excuse for why it might not be bad writing, if only...?

Londinium
26-01-2013, 16:18
I'm looking forward to this in that it'll add some context to the event and hopefully people will stop whining about it.

It amazes me how people on Warseer take every bit of background as literally as if it were a technical manual (or as seriously as if it were the actual rules for 40k viewed through a WAAC filter). Most of the stories in the Rulebooks/Codexes are exactly that; stories. Heroic tales and stories, exaggerated and embellished. It's supposed to be a heroic, inspiring tale of heroism which comes from a point of view biased heavily in favour of the Grey Knights. It's not a literal step-by-step-replay of how something actually, definitely, indisputably happened. Of course it's ridiculous that even Draigo pulled this off as it's written; but it's more ridiculous for someone to take it deadly serious. Other things will be happening in the battle. Other Grey Knights might be fighting the Deathshroud; Mortarion might have fought a lot of Grey Knights before fighting Geronitan and be in a really bad shape by the time Draigo gets to him. Without more context we don't know and judging it based entirely off the bit of background in the GK codex is stupid.

It's Matt Ward, he's not capable of writing non-literally. If it was ADB, Abnett, McNeill or one of a handful of others then maybe but Ward has a history of writing atrocious background.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
26-01-2013, 17:49
In the case of Angron it was an entire company of GK terminators, who all died in the process.
Actually, they didn't all die. There's also the difference in that Angron may well have been at full strength whereas Mortarion probably wasn't (unless he inexplicably defeated at least one Grey Knight (and likely more, it's unlike Geronitan would have been unprotected) without exerting himself as well as Angron having a bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters and hordes of Daemons around him. The other forces of Mortarion were presumably being dealt with by the other Grey Knights.

We can only judge what they provide us with.
Yes but people seem to be assuming that it's a Daemon Primarch at full strength that got beaten on a one-on-one. The fact that Mortarion had already been fighting suggests that this was not the case.
It probably should've been expanded on more in the Codex.

M'ichal
26-01-2013, 21:30
I'm looking forward to this in that it'll add some context to the event and hopefully people will stop whining about it.

It amazes me how people on Warseer take every bit of background as literally as if it were a technical manual (or as seriously as if it were the actual rules for 40k viewed through a WAAC filter). Most of the stories in the Rulebooks/Codexes are exactly that; stories. Heroic tales and stories, exaggerated and embellished. It's supposed to be a heroic, inspiring tale of heroism which comes from a point of view biased heavily in favour of the Grey Knights. It's not a literal step-by-step-replay of how something actually, definitely, indisputably happened. Of course it's ridiculous that even Draigo pulled this off as it's written; but it's more ridiculous for someone to take it deadly serious. Other things will be happening in the battle. Other Grey Knights might be fighting the Deathshroud; Mortarion might have fought a lot of Grey Knights before fighting Geronitan and be in a really bad shape by the time Draigo gets to him. Without more context we don't know and judging it based entirely off the bit of background in the GK codex is stupid.

Exactly. In a short timeline blurb you summarise the most important outcome of an event, without going into details, right? The rest is left to imagination and interpretation and GW always encourages this in their games. We'll see if BL's interpretation adds more sense to it (assuming this is the story), otherwise make of it what you will.

I think Ward actually already succeeded just having so many people discussing it so passionately! =)

MiyamatoMusashi
27-01-2013, 09:10
Yes but people seem to be assuming that it's a Daemon Primarch at full strength that got beaten on a one-on-one. The fact that Mortarion had already been fighting suggests that this was not the case.

OK, but, presumably Draigo had already been fighting too. Right? Exactly.

Again: if you have to infer stuff that isn't written or even implied and even then still doesn't make a lot of sense, just to rescue something from being absolutely awful, then actually that something probably is actually absolutely awful, after all.

The funny thing is I don't think you'd do this for anything else; if you read this in the background to a fictional universe you didn't already like, you'd probably consider it as stupid as I do now. But it's in 40K, which we all love, so you look for reasons not to. Obviously I don't actually know your mind so I could be wrong, but the alternative is that you wander through life thinking everything that ever happens is brilliant (because you might not have the context to conclude otherwise). Personally I'd rather keep my critical faculties, even with something I love.


I think Ward actually already succeeded just having so many people discussing it so passionately! =)

Ruining something that people care about will always produce a strong passionate reaction. Usually it's called vandalism or in modern parlance, trolling. If Mat Ward is trolling us then yes, it's successful (and it would explain a lot). If he's trying to develop the breadth and depth of a fictional universe in which people have invested years or even decades of their imagination, then merely "generating a passionate response" does not qualify as a success. Go and draw a stupid moustache and glasses on the Mona Lisa. You'll get a reaction, but would you count it as success?

M'ichal
27-01-2013, 17:18
OK, but, presumably Draigo had already been fighting too. Right? Exactly.

Both moot points, because Mortarion could have been fighting 50 terminators with the Chapter Master and Draigo could've been fighting 5 bodyguards with the other 50...we just don't know the numbers and battle course. Hm, I guess it could benefit from the SMB treatment after all...


Ruining something that people care about will always produce a strong passionate reaction. Usually it's called vandalism or in modern parlance, trolling. If Mat Ward is trolling us then yes, it's successful (and it would explain a lot). If he's trying to develop the breadth and depth of a fictional universe in which people have invested years or even decades of their imagination, then merely "generating a passionate response" does not qualify as a success. Go and draw a stupid moustache and glasses on the Mona Lisa. You'll get a reaction, but would you count it as success?

Well, depends what his goals were...I guess we'll never know.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
27-01-2013, 20:21
OK, but, presumably Draigo had already been fighting too. Right? Exactly.
Probably. But fighting what? Thing's he spends almost of his time training and learning how to defeat it and then fighting it with equipment designed to make him more effective at it. Mortarion is fighting such soldiers when he spends most of his time in the Eye of Terror. If he fights much, it's against other Chaos forces.

Again: if you have to infer stuff that isn't written or even implied and even then still doesn't make a lot of sense, just to rescue something from being absolutely awful, then actually that something probably is actually absolutely awful, after all.
Okay. People are inferring that Mortarion is automatically more powerful than any mortal. Is that really the case? It's a piece of writing without context. You have to make assumptions about it. There's that whole 'let your imagination fill in what happened' thing Games Workshop likes so much.

The funny thing is I don't think you'd do this for anything else; if you read this in the background to a fictional universe you didn't already like, you'd probably consider it as stupid as I do now.
I never said that it was brilliant writing. I don't think it is. I think people are overreacting to it.

Tymell
27-01-2013, 20:54
Okay. People are inferring that Mortarion is automatically more powerful than any mortal.

That doesn't really need to be inferred though, it just is. Primarchs are already far above space marines, even high ranking Grey Knights, never mind Warp-enhanced ones. Is it absolutely impossible for a space marine to defeat a daemon primarch? No, anything is possible. But it's so extreme that if you want to write it in as canonical fact, then you damn well better give it a lot of context to explain it. Saying "well, this, this and this might have all been the case, thus explaining it" isn't a get-out-of-it-free card for bad writing. Especially when it comes from an author known for writing such ridiculous nonsense.

The basic concept could even have worked if it had been toned down to a believable level. Draigo carving a name into the heart of a daemon prince? Sure, great, that's awesome. But that wasn't enough. Ward, like the little boy trying to show how uber and badass his new Marvel fanfic character is by having him slap aside Thor, Hulk and Wolverine all at once, had to go for a daemon primarch. And that, with the whole "single-handedly slapped him aside, pinned him down and started carving into his heart" thing just takes it to silly levels.

Sqallum
28-01-2013, 17:01
That doesn't really need to be inferred though, it just is. Primarchs are already far above space marines, even high ranking Grey Knights, never mind Warp-enhanced ones. Is it absolutely impossible for a space marine to defeat a daemon primarch? No, anything is possible. But it's so extreme that if you want to write it in as canonical fact, then you damn well better give it a lot of context to explain it. Saying "well, this, this and this might have all been the case, thus explaining it" isn't a get-out-of-it-free card for bad writing. Especially when it comes from an author known for writing such ridiculous nonsense.

The basic concept could even have worked if it had been toned down to a believable level. Draigo carving a name into the heart of a daemon prince? Sure, great, that's awesome. But that wasn't enough. Ward, like the little boy trying to show how uber and badass his new Marvel fanfic character is by having him slap aside Thor, Hulk and Wolverine all at once, had to go for a daemon primarch. And that, with the whole "single-handedly slapped him aside, pinned him down and started carving into his heart" thing just takes it to silly levels.

Completely agree. Truly terrible writing...

...Nonetheless, I reckon BL will rectify it.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
29-01-2013, 17:45
That doesn't really need to be inferred though, it just is. Primarchs are already far above space marines, even high ranking Grey Knights, never mind Warp-enhanced ones.
In Know No Fear Kor Phaeron supposedly had Guilliman on the ropes before taking time to gloat. Chaos boosted Space Marines have been known to go toe-to-toe with Primarchs for a while, at least. A particularly powerful Psyker may well be capable of doing the same thing or better. Speaking of which, the power of Draigo is unknown. Beta? Alpha? And again, becoming Daemonic in nature gives them weaknesses as well as bonuses. We don't even know power of the Primarchs has been boosted by their ascension whatsoever. They're probably more vulnerable to Grey Knights as Daemon Primarchs than they would've been previously. And yes, I admit it should've been elaborated on, but that in itself doesn't make it bad writing.

And that, with the whole "single-handedly slapped him aside, pinned him down and started carving into his heart" thing just takes it to silly levels.
Well, I doubt Draigo was physically pinning Mortarion down. Psychically maybe. And I also doubt that it was merely as an insult. Mortarion was at the least banished.

That said, I don't particularly like the piece. Still a lot better, and less over the top, than the background about a certain Zoanthrope though.

FlashGordon
29-01-2013, 19:10
The Know no Fear example is a good example of a good author dropping the ball. ;)

Anyway i believe BL will rectify this fluffrape because they know it caused quite a hassle, and in the end they save he-who-shall-also-not-be-named and can say "thats what he meant all the time, hurr durr!".

Anyway i hope so.

Antreus
29-01-2013, 21:18
I like to think Kaldor was piloting a Dread Knight. That makes it more believable.

loveless
30-01-2013, 14:15
I like to think Kaldor was piloting a Dread Knight. That makes it more believable.

I like to think he was piloting a Dread Knight that was piloting an even bigger Dread Knight. That makes it more Wardian.

m1acca1551
31-01-2013, 07:06
I hope that this will flesh out the story of the carving, the writer may be able to change the perception of the fight by crafting the story in the GK codex as a bard, an over glorification of events as opposed to what actually happened... we'll see i will be waiting for the reviews before buying.

Scammel
31-01-2013, 08:14
Actually, I'm quite looking forwards to this, because it'll almost certainly add a tonne more context to this horrible event. I'd certainly wager a retcon of the whole 'single-handedly' element, or at least a very good explanation as to why Mort' was apparently incapacitated during this period. The Battle of the Fang is a great example as to how Marines can convincingly deliver a good beating to a Daemon Primarch.

Charax
31-01-2013, 08:24
I'll listen to it, if only to see what they do with the godawful premise. It can't be worse than what we have at the moment, right?

I'm pretty sure Draigo doesn't exist, he's a cartoon character and "Draigo single-handedly stabbed Mortarion in the heart" is the imperial version of "Captain America punched Hitler in the face"

FlashGordon
31-01-2013, 09:44
Actually, I'm quite looking forwards to this, because it'll almost certainly add a tonne more context to this horrible event. I'd certainly wager a retcon of the whole 'single-handedly' element, or at least a very good explanation as to why Mort' was apparently incapacitated during this period. The Battle of the Fang is a great example as to how Marines can convincingly deliver a good beating to a Daemon Primarch.

Battle of the Fang, the fight with primarch was the weak point of the book, rest of the book was nice.

M'ichal
31-01-2013, 14:35
Battle of the Fang, the fight with primarch was the weak point of the book, rest of the book was nice.

Man, weak point...no it wasn't, it was great. Primarchs are not invincible. They got their a$$e$ kicked before and they will many more times.

Scammel
31-01-2013, 14:42
Battle of the Fang, the fight with primarch was the weak point of the book, rest of the book was nice.

Really? In what respect? I felt was a very fair representation of what a Daemon Primarch's capabilities and limitations are.

boogle
31-01-2013, 20:29
Maybe Laurie can dig out a diamond from the cack within the codex.

MvS
31-01-2013, 23:17
What's the betting "Mortarion's Heart" is going to turn out to be a title of some... thingumijig... rather than the pulpy organ that energy-based daemons don't really need?

Archaon
03-02-2013, 20:36
Another thing that's bothering me is the fact that Grey Knights are now out for revenge.

I'm an old dude who has begun his GW career with 2nd edition 40K and 4th edition Warhammer Fantasy battles and i remember old fluff that talked about Grey Knights as being trained to feel no emotion as these could be used as a portal by the Chaos Gods to lead them astray. Grey Knights back then were more like automatons whose entire narrow focus was to fight Demons and nothing else.
Of course that was a time where basic Space Marines were described as a kind of SS shock troops mercilessly gunning down children and women (all Marines and not just the psycho ones like Flesh Tearers) if they opposed the Imperium even if it were only by association, i.e. they were related to the true rebel.

Of course this was before GW founded Black Library and started pumping Space Marine stories.. can't write about brutal, genocidal fanatics and make them look cool, can you? So they mellowed out the background extensively and made the Marines relatable.. Space Wolves always were the partying kind of Vikings but then we got all the spectrum of humankind concentrated in other Marine chapters.. Ultramarines are noble and honorbound, Salamanders live amongst their people etc.

Give them an edition or two and they might even try and allude that Chaos has indeed managed to corrupt a Grey Knight (maybe it'll be a immensely powerful Chaos Special Character whose background alludes to being a former imperial Marine with curiosly metallic Powerarmor and torn, booklike chapter markings that have been overwritten by Chaos icons :rolleyes:).. nothing is safe and too ridiculous with GW these days.

Just goes to show how times change.

Tastyfish
04-02-2013, 00:19
What's the betting "Mortaqrion's Heart" is going to turn out to be a title of some... thingumijig... rather than the pulpy organ that energy-based daemons don't really need?
He's a daemon, literally and figuratively are literally (and figuratively) the same thing.

Seems pretty much the whole point of this sort of thing really, you're reading a bit of background and saying "What!? How the hell did that happen?", and now you've got an extended explanation of how that happened.
Maybe it's an artefact, maybe it's a punishment from Nurgle so he doesn't forget his place and overestimate his own power. This is the Chaos god of permanence and stasis - if you gloat about how you've taken out the Grandmaster of the Grey Knights, and how now he/they are nothing before you, you're pretty much asking for an abstract lesson in how nothing ever completely disappears. What better way to remember this than having it carved in your heart for eternity?

Don't mock the God of Stones and Ripples.

That then in turn sets up Draigo's tragedy as a pawn of the chaos gods/force of nature in the warp.

MvS
04-02-2013, 11:25
He's a daemon, literally and figuratively are literally (and figuratively) the same thing.

Well yes. My point was that it may well turn out that the literal act of scratching a name on an organ inside a being's chest won't happen at all. His heart could be both literally and figuratively something external to himself, but that would make the Draigo story more plausible if handled well.

Lupe
05-02-2013, 19:28
Well yes. My point was that it may well turn out that the literal act of scratching a name on an organ inside a being's chest won't happen at all. His heart could be both literally and figuratively something external to himself, but that would make the Draigo story more plausible if handled well.

Well, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if daemons of Nurgle have some of their somewhat vital organs bursting out of their torso... But then again, I've long since made the whole blurb work in my mind...

If Mortarion is anything like Angron in terms of size (comparable to a Warhound titan, if I recall the description from The Emperor's Gift), a human climbing up on Mortarion, God-of-war style, and then taking like 15 seconds to scribble a few runes on an exposed weak spot that happens to be larger than the average Astartes doesn't sound too far fetched, all of a sudden... I doubt he'd even care, really...

Londinium
05-02-2013, 21:28
That size of Daemon Primarch seems a lot over the top though, considering that Guilliman fought hand to hand combat with Daemon-Fulgrim and a Grey Knight Grand Master did the same with Angron. Not to say they're not that size but I wouldn't appreciate it personally, then again I've always found the 9/10ft thing to be frankly silly as well.

Tastyfish
05-02-2013, 22:54
Epic daemon princes are the same size as epic avatars as well. Very much a relative thing depending on drama and the like.

MvS - I was kind of joking, more just pointing out that you don't even need some external artefact. If he can figuratively burn a name on to Mortarion's heart/memory, then the Warp and Papa Nurgle will do the rest

wyvirn
05-02-2013, 23:52
What's the betting "Mortarion's Heart" is going to turn out to be a title of some... thingumijig... rather than the pulpy organ that energy-based daemons don't really need?

For all we can get from the paragraph, Mortarion's Heart might just be a local pub Dragio visits on Saturday.

*Edit* Now that I thought about it, I would love for the book to be the 40k equivalent of Cheers. Even the Cheers Theme song works with the daemonhunter/ daemon relationship because "everybody knows your Name"

Sqallum
06-02-2013, 17:27
For all we can get from the paragraph, Mortarion's Heart might just be a local pub Dragio visits on Saturday.

I laughed a lot at this :)

Exorcist
31-01-2014, 05:27
This bit of fluff allways sounded like a comic strip of Axecop to me.

FlashGordon
31-01-2014, 11:34
Really? What about a single Zoanthrope taking down an entire Craftworld by breaching their most precious area no less?

Besides, writing a story about it is most likely to try to explain how it happened, and make it seem more reasonable to people who thing it's ridiculous.

Not really any kind of old zoanthrope now was it? It was what can only be described like an Alpha class tyranid psyker.

Horus38
31-01-2014, 20:23
The Know no Fear example is a good example of a good author dropping the ball. ;)

Anyway i believe BL will rectify this fluffrape because they know it caused quite a hassle, and in the end they save he-who-shall-also-not-be-named and can say "thats what he meant all the time, hurr durr!".

Anyway i hope so.

LMAO, this about sums it up. I've actually enjoyed watching BL and other authors take some of the truly abysmal fluff that Ward came up with and tweaking/polishing/refining it to a point where it's actually adding something to the background instead of just a joke/sore spot.

Barghest
03-02-2014, 12:57
I can honestly say I've been waiting for someone to write about this ever since I read the passage from the Codex. It's Laurie Goulding, no less, and I like his work quite a bit. Plus, he share my opinion that Warseer is a terrible, terrible place.

DarkChaplain
03-02-2014, 23:59
Plus, he share my opinion that Warseer is a terrible, terrible place.

Isn't that the popular opinion? #WarseerExplodes

Anakwanar
04-02-2014, 08:09
Waiting patiently to start an apocalyptic rage :mad: about carvings on heart :)

Fen
05-02-2014, 00:13
They added an extract on the store page

Didn't expect Mortarion to go the "GUO voice n. 20" route

Barghest
07-02-2014, 14:11
Isn't that the popular opinion?

One should certainly hope!

I'm not sure what I was expecting for Mortarion's voice. I don't know if I like it yet.

flota
08-02-2014, 18:35
still over the top?

DarkChaplain
08-02-2014, 21:17
still over the top?

Still 6 days off. We'll see then

flota
09-02-2014, 17:58
Still 6 days off. We'll see then

Ahh my bad
I read in the past that it was going to be released August last year


Sent from Holy Terra

Londinium
11-02-2014, 18:05
The daemon prince Mortarion has emerged from the Eye of Terror at the head of a vast plague-horde, intent upon the corruption of the Imperium he once served. Under Supreme Grand Master Geronitan, the Grey Knights finally meet the daemon army in battle on the plains of Kornovin

I hate the original story and I'm worried about this new book but thank god! finally! a Primarch other than Angron actually leaving the Eye of Terror. I've always been a proponent of them being more active and hated the whole 'they just mooch around the Eye because they're fulfilled and no longer care about the Imperium' argument.

Apfeljunge
14-02-2014, 18:14
So, I just listened to this and I think they managed to elevate this atrocious piece of fluff to typical BL standards. Which means it's a solid and somewhat typical space marine heroic tale.

Not bad but not great either.

anyway


Mortarion is defeated with his true name in a moment of distraction (He's on fire, which only happend because he gloated too much, as expected...)
Apparently, "Mortarion" is not the name given to him at birth by the emperor.
Morty talks a bit about Janus, confirming him to be one of Malcador's knights errant. Nothing groundbreaking here though, but the way he talked it seemed like it's a bit personal for him, so that could point to Garro himself.

502
15-02-2014, 03:08
So, I just listened to this and I think they managed to elevate this atrocious piece of fluff to typical BL standards. Which means it's a solid and somewhat typical space marine heroic tale.

Not bad but not great either.

anyway


Mortarion is defeated with his true name in a moment of distraction (He's on fire, which only happend because he gloated too much, as expected...)
Apparently, "Mortarion" is not the name given to him at birth by the emperor.
Morty talks a bit about Janus, confirming him to be one of Malcador's knights errant. Nothing groundbreaking here though, but the way he talked it seemed like it's a bit personal for him, so that could point to Garro himself.


Thanks for this tidbit. After reading it and having listened to the small sample on BL's website, I am disappointed. I won't go into a Khorne-ish rage fest about Ward for now but I thought they would just leave it at that instead of expanding it and making it even grander.
Mortarion's voice sounds a bit goofy I think.

cornonthecob
15-02-2014, 08:41
I like what the author said on the BL website that what was written in the GK codex isn't 'Literal'.

Apfeljunge
15-02-2014, 10:11
Yeah I still think Draigo himself is the weakest part of this whole tale. Even in this version, he is bland and boring. The voice didn't help.

I don't think they made it grander though. Yes, they expanded the infamous scene but they made the set up a lot more believable imo.

Horus38
15-02-2014, 19:33
I like what the author said on the BL website that what was written in the GK codex isn't 'Literal'.

Whereabouts on the site was this? Having trouble finding it and always like seeing the authors insights.

DarkChaplain
15-02-2014, 20:08
Whereabouts on the site was this? Having trouble finding it and always like seeing the authors insights.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/lj-goulding-pours-his-heart-out.html

The Blog is now under the News links...


Listened to the drama twice since yesterday, and must say that it was damn solid. It exceeded my expectations, and, in my eyes, fixed the piece of junk lore from the Codex. Sure, Mortarion's heart is still getting scribbled on, but the context and setup is much more believable in the Codex. At the end of the day, the drama appears much more in line with what other material we've seen, including ADB's The Emperor's Gift (Daemon Primarch Angron) and the Horus Heresy series. While Mortarion's gloating might seem a bit like an easy way out, it is also quite in-character, especially combined with his obvious distaste for the Grey Knight "witches" and his talk about Janus.

I'd very much recommend the audio drama (which also includes the scriptas a PDF file) to those people who didn't like the lore the first time around - it might help put the complaints to rest, or at least reducing them. Mortarion's Heart, Kaldor Draigo: Knight of Titan and Pandorax actually made me want to read more Draigo stories in the future; if Laurie gets to write more about the new Supreme Grand Master, I have plenty of hope that Ward's awful lore might be properly rectified after all.

Horus38
16-02-2014, 02:44
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/lj-goulding-pours-his-heart-out.html

The Blog is now under the News links...

Much obliged, very insightful!

Deff Mekz
16-02-2014, 10:19
Thanks for the spoilers Apfeljunge! :) On the topic of Janus; He cannot be Garro as James Swallow has already stated, in White Dwarf no less, that Garro will not become of the first Grand Masters. If anything the topic of Janus being quite personal to Morty would add further weight to the idea that Omegon becomes one of the first Grand Masters with him being his brother and all.

DarkChaplain
16-02-2014, 12:23
Alright, if we're discussing Janus now, here's a quote from the drama on that specific mention. I advise reading it, unless you have a desperate urge to have this discussion, or absolutely no plans of picking up the drama anyway.



MORTARION (snorting): \\Oh, noble and mighty Janus! Noble, mighty, steadfast, pious and honourable Janus–//

and

MORTARION (low, conspiratorial): \\But of course, I doubt even the archives of Titan would contain the original identities of the Sigillite’s... errant angels. Names. Power. It works both ways. Guarded. Hidden. [pause] The truth of Janus’s past would shake your pitiful Chapter to its very foundations. Of that, you can be certain. Treachery, cowardice... heresy, and a brother who would willingly betray his own for the sake of some half-imagined redemption.// As I told your master before I cut him down – you have all been deceived.

In my eyes, it may actually fit Omegon, though I still find the suggestion to be a far-fetched one. It does also fit Garro, though, who committed heresy by going for the Emperor-worship. And last we heard, Garro and co returned home to Terra, as they had picked up all the dudes Malcador asked them to gather. Omegon is still kicking and deceiving his brothers. And to be honest, turning Omegon into a Grey Knight founder would undermine a lot of the lore, so I can't really ever see it happening.

Londinium
16-02-2014, 15:37
Thanks for the spoilers Apfeljunge! :) On the topic of Janus; He cannot be Garro as James Swallow has already stated, in White Dwarf no less, that Garro will not become of the first Grand Masters. If anything the topic of Janus being quite personal to Morty would add further weight to the idea that Omegon becomes one of the first Grand Masters with him being his brother and all.

The other Primarchs don't even know who Omegon is. There's been a few hints here and there that some of them are aware of odd stuff but Mortarion wasn't one of them. Unless Morty stumbled across Omegon in the aftermath of the Heresy I doubt he even knows he exists.

Scammel
16-02-2014, 15:54
Didn't Lorgar gift Alpharius a pair of near-identical-yet-oh-so-subtly-different books at some point? I would lean towards it being common knowledge amongst the Primarchs.

Deff Mekz
16-02-2014, 16:00
^This. Plus all off the Alpha Legion are "Alpharius", who to say Mortarion didn't think Alpharius turned, even if he didn't know of Omegon, while leaving his legion in oblivion.

boogle
16-02-2014, 16:42
Janus is NOT Omegon


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Deff Mekz
16-02-2014, 17:48
Does that information come from Black Library themselves, I understand you're on quite friendly terms with the authors Boogle? If you know who it is and post it, please put it in spoiler tags. :)

boogle
16-02-2014, 18:10
I can't say unfortunately

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Londinium
16-02-2014, 20:09
Didn't Lorgar gift Alpharius a pair of near-identical-yet-oh-so-subtly-different books at some point? I would lean towards it being common knowledge amongst the Primarchs.

That would be the hint I referred to. Horus maybe knows as well but none of the others have ever shown any evidence of knowing.

Deff Mekz
16-02-2014, 20:54
@Boogle- No worries, perfectly understandable mate. :) That changes my list of the 10 Knights Errant (9 of which have been named by the way) and the first 4 Inquisitors slightly;


The Four Inquisitors

Euphrati Keeler- "The Saint" -"Moriana"
Khalid Hassan- Imperial Army -"Promeus"
Yasu Nagasena- Bounty Hunter -Ordos Xenos
Amendara Kendrel- Ordos Malleus

The Ten Knights Errant

Garro -Death Guard (Unknown Fate, but not a Grey Knight)
Qurze -Luna Wolves
Rubio -Ultramarines
Varren -World Eaters
Varksjold -Space Wolves (Dec.)
Umojen -Salamanders
Severian -Luna Wolf Thunder Warrior
Loken- Luna Wolves "Janus"
Zahariel- Dark Angels "Epimetheus"
Sevatar- Night Lords "Khyron" (As a Guess)

So that would make the 8; Loken, Sevatar, Rubio, The Spoilered Duo, Varren, Qurze and Umojen.

Speaking of which I've just thought of something, if Mortarion does have a personal connection to Janus why would he call him Janus rather than his true name. It seems more likely to me that Mortarion merely knows his identity rather than personally being somewhat tied to the Grand Master.

boogle
16-02-2014, 21:36
Qruze isn't psychic though, if anything he would be better stood as the first Hereticus inquisitor, neither is Loken psychic

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Deff Mekz
16-02-2014, 22:16
Qruze isn't psychic though, if anything he would be better stood as the first Hereticus inquisitor, neither is Loken psychic

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Very true but in Pandorax; Abbadon says Epimetheus is a brother of 8, once 10. Included in that group are an Ultramarine and his "erstwhile brother" who he watched die. It would be abit weird if all the members of the current Knights Errant weren't part of that group. And while Loken isn't a Psyker, there is the possibility that GK geneseed might give him a weak psychic ability. I would replace Qurze with Garro if it weren't for James Swallow's comment on him not being a Grey Knight...

Perrin
17-02-2014, 02:09
Whether Loken is a psyker or not is a matter for debate. I also wouldn't take what James Swallow said in WD as fact either. The IP team may change their minds.

Lord Lorne Walkier
17-02-2014, 10:21
I think Loken will continue to go by the name Cerberus. Why change it? I still hold that Garro will be Janus and the "Titan-sword" is Libertas.

Deff Mekz
17-02-2014, 20:07
I think Loken will continue to go by the name Cerberus. Why change it? I still hold that Garro will be Janus and the "Titan-sword" is Libertas.

In Luna Mendax; Loken says he's embaressed that he called himself "Cerberus".

MiyamatoMusashi
17-02-2014, 20:36
Sevatar- Night Lords "Khyron" (As a Guess)

Last time this was being discussed on Warseer, ADB posted on his Facebook page about wild and crazy internet speculation getting things wrong.

I don't know if there's definitive proof that those two things were linked - I don't think ADB has stated outright that "Sevatar is not Khyron" - but the implication seemed pretty clear at the time that that was what he was referring to. Regrettably (sort of... it would be cool... but also very silly) I have to conclude that Sevatar is not Khyron.

Nazguire
18-02-2014, 11:32
@Boogle- No worries, perfectly understandable mate. :) That changes my list of the 10 Knights Errant (9 of which have been named by the way) and the first 4 Inquisitors slightly;


The Four Inquisitors

Euphrati Keeler- "The Saint" -"Moriana"
Khalid Hassan- Imperial Army -"Promeus"
Yasu Nagasena- Bounty Hunter -Ordos Xenos
Amendara Kendrel- Ordos Malleus

The Ten Knights Errant

Garro -Death Guard (Unknown Fate, but not a Grey Knight)
Qurze -Luna Wolves
Rubio -Ultramarines
Varren -World Eaters
Varksjold -Space Wolves (Dec.)
Umojen -Salamanders
Severian -Luna Wolf Thunder Warrior
Loken- Luna Wolves "Janus"
Zahariel- Dark Angels "Epimetheus"
Sevatar- Night Lords "Khyron" (As a Guess)

So that would make the 8; Loken, Sevatar, Rubio, The Spoilered Duo, Varren, Qurze and Umojen.

Speaking of which I've just thought of something, if Mortarion does have a personal connection to Janus why would he call him Janus rather than his true name. It seems more likely to me that Mortarion merely knows his identity rather than personally being somewhat tied to the Grand Master.


How is Severien a Thunder Warrior?.

Dean5150
18-02-2014, 13:06
Just finished listening to this. Boring as an audio drama. Would have made a much better novella or short story.

Dean5150
22-02-2014, 00:04
Just could not get into this. Too much talking and debating for me. Would make a great novella but not audio drama for me.

DarkChaplain
22-02-2014, 05:41
Just could not get into this. Too much talking and debating for me. Would make a great novella but not audio drama for me.

To me, the amount of dialogue and debate is what makes it so good. Then again, I do tend to bore of samey action scenes in Black Library novels and wish for the next bit of character interaction instead...

Sqallum
22-02-2014, 21:31
Interesting.

Just wondering, who is Varksjold? Does he survive/die? Where does he appear?

Thanks.

DarkChaplain
22-02-2014, 23:33
Interesting.

Just wondering, who is Varksjold? Does he survive/die? Where does he appear?

Thanks.

Spoilers for Distant Echoes of Old Night:


Varskj°ld appears in Rob Sanders' Death Guard short story "Distant Echoes of Old Night". He's a Space Wolf and on board an Imperial Fists frigate(?) which the DG shot down. His armor was in the Knight Errant style.
He dies, as do the Fists, but not before they screw the DG over. It is implied that the Imperial Fists' "precious cargo" was actually Varskj°ld, not necessarily weapons or anything like that