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View Full Version : Need advice: how to shield a hydra from hard shooting?



kelthrai
26-01-2013, 21:21
Hi guys, i've had a couple of games with a hydra(or two) and
the hydra is almost always shot to pieces before it gets
into action. I've always tried to move it into cover but it always
has to get outfrom the cover to charge, and in that single turn
they are getting blow to pieces. Advice needed please, that would
be great :)

tmarichards
26-01-2013, 21:35
In my opinion, hydras are only worth running in pairs or not at all. With 2, you have redundancy if one is killed and double the threats whereas 1 is just too easy to focus on. The best use for a single hydra I found was distracting the first couple of cannonballs or Pits from going after the Cauldron.

Overall though, on the turn you push with the hydras you need to pushing with multiple threats- both the peg riders, both the hydras, both the infantry blocks. Your opponent can only kill so much, and then whatever is left gets in.

The alternative is to hide the hydras until you've dealt with the threats against them- eg, you peg heroes have cleaned out the enemy war machines.

kefkah
26-01-2013, 22:25
where in earth is the only option of running 2 hydras?. Yeah for 175 p, i gladly take just only 4 anyday.

Im guession your against cannon heavy armies, then i have to say, ouch! other then dreadlords or a cauldron ( wich you whant him to shoot at) your hydra will be nr 1 target. If its against dwarfs also then no regen. Its hard, the best bet is to deploy a impassable, cover him asap, then when you can charge risk 1 round of shooting. Unless he has multiple cannons though..

Haha, yeah its hard vs cannons in multiples as a hydra, since he aint got better targets.

If its braindead double hydra then do just that, braindead march straight forward, atleast 1 might survive.

pippin_nl
26-01-2013, 22:28
Hi guys, i've had a couple of games with a hydra(or two) and
the hydra is almost always shot to pieces before it gets
into action. I've always tried to move it into cover but it always
has to get outfrom the cover to charge, and in that single turn
they are getting blow to pieces. Advice needed please, that would
be great :)

It might help if we could see your army list and what blows it to pieces. I am curious as it is one of the sturdiest monsters in the game.

Capt._Jaelinek
26-01-2013, 22:51
I also advocate the hide it policy. Buildings and other terrain that blocks LoS being far superior to forests, walls and the like. Engage or destroy enemy warmachines ASAP then march the hydra out of cover where it's needed.

Xerkics
27-01-2013, 02:18
Hide it behind a dude on a manticore or dreadlord on a pegasus for line of sight then next turn you should be able to fly to the cannon.

hazmiter
27-01-2013, 03:35
Imho, screen it with infantry, or if the battlefield had a good ammout of terrain (as a battlefield should, rather than only a bare board) use the terrain to advantage.
Mind you it is easy to lose a hydra to massed shooting.
Redundancy is always best with hydras though, in pairs they maul things, alone, they get singled out for flame treatment.
Manticore is too expensive imho, no saves for the manticore, not even a regen, or scaly skin..... Worst choice to screen with. Especially at 25pts more than hydra, plus master to boot.

kelthrai
27-01-2013, 12:39
@pippin_nl
I usually play against ogres,OnG and empire, mostly around 2000p-ish, so they get to
include some nasty cannons or doomdaivaas. I dont play anything crazy with dark elves
just a dread(unkillable of course) lv 2 scr, BSB,hydra and some regular units are to find in every game
but other then that it depends on who i am facing, for example i dont go all out killing blows agains nigth goblins.

hazmiter
27-01-2013, 13:00
Try blackguard buffed with cauldron, and have the hydra support.
2 big threats, plus a buff machine, so 3 realisticly.

But it is a chunk of points....

theunwantedbeing
27-01-2013, 15:00
Putting a pendant toting hero in the way helps, although only vs one direction cannonballs that don't just overshoot the hero.
Sitting it behind a wall helps, it's tricky to perfectly overshoot the wall, again, works less well vs multiple cannons.
Sitting behind a building out of sight works, although again...the cannons can still hit it.

Note that none of this works vs stone throwers or most magical spells that'll just target the thing directly.
The lore of metal can kill it very quickly
As can the lore of fire, you get the idea.

Your best bet is to use it aggressively and make it a threat.
Deploy it last, on the front line.
Then immediately run it into something.

Having a bunch of support units to deal with those war machines that splatter it helps as well.
Dark riders with crossbows can often get into range by turn 1 and with a bit of luck, blow away a war machine in a single volley.
Furies are also handy, although it's usually turn 2 onwards when they hit opposing machines, at which point the hydra may well be dead.

An alternate idea would be to simply not take it for a few games.
Let the enemy feel their cannons are worthless as they have nothing to "make their points back" against.
They'll likely quit taking them.
Next game, Hydra!
Then you don't use it the following game when they bring back all their cannons.

hazmiter
27-01-2013, 15:32
Unwanted being has a point here, (not that I've faced cannons before, but its a matter of time)
Fast moving threats can help here, dark riders with crossbows (shades I will also point out are good too).

popisdead
28-01-2013, 15:41
Advice needed please, that would be great :)

Stop using them.

You are dealing with a good 4 or 5 years of people hating the Hydra as it has a tremendously low points cost for what it does.

However the way to counter large threats are several smaller ones as well. Do you also take Dark Riders and Shades? Those pump out a lot of shooting for only a few models each that can help apply a threat to the units trying to shoot your Hydra.

boli
28-01-2013, 16:17
Coming from a Skaven player who looses their HPA on the 1st or 2nd turn *every* time the is only one way around it:

Target Saturation

With a 6 always wounding, flaming and poison attacks can mean your "big hitters" drop like flies; but bring enough of them and your opponent is forced to concentrate fire to kill some but allow others to reach his lines.

Sadly you just cannot "hide" it behind another unit.. those things are big enough that true line of sight will just mean they'll fire over your unit; you just have to deal with the fact a portion of your big monsters will never reach the enemy :/



My biggest bane right now on saving my HPA/Doomwheel (similar issue) is my opponent just bunkers up in forests, shoots our but I take dangerous terrain hits in charging in; fun times :P

Knifeparty
28-01-2013, 16:31
Target saturation is key, I always run 2 hydras and a unit of 12 cold one knights. Get in his face and do it quick, don't hide. Just run up and put pressure on him make him make tough decisions. The hydras themselves are incredibly durable if you aren't passing regen saves well that's just the game I'm afraid.

Always use tones of chaff units like dark riders and shades, he has to deal with those threats first turn or else he'll lose his war machines.

MarcoPollo
29-01-2013, 19:30
It seems to me that a hydra has to be part of target saturation strategy either:

1) timed for a specific turn if cover is available or:
2) part of an early rush at the start or:
3) a mid-late game hammer if cover allows.

IceTea
03-02-2013, 12:19
I have problems killing off the hydra, it has a decent armor save, a good regen save and the handler hit rule. I especially hate the handler hit rule, 5-6 and a handler dies...

My DE player is just able to field one hydra atm. but he is preparing two of the bastards, preparing Hellfire Volleygun nr 2 for assembly.

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2013, 12:40
and the handler hit rule. I especially hate the handler hit rule, 5-6 and a handler dies...

Well that's nonsense.
This is what happens when people don't read the rules for things.

hazmiter
03-02-2013, 21:08
The hydra takes all the hits, the handlers hide behind the hydra (all they do is keep hydra in check there is no other reason for them being there)
On top of that, it also counts in cc, the hydra takes all the hits.

Guderian1941
04-02-2013, 07:08
Hi guys, i've had a couple of games with a hydra(or two) and
the hydra is almost always shot to pieces before it gets
into action.

As suggested above, maybe leave the two hydras at home for a bit. I would also add that when you leave the two hydras at home you might actually have to start thinking and using tactics when you play Warhammer. I don't mean to come across so negatively, but I find Dark Elf double Hydra + Pendant + Cauldron lists about as inspiring as 7th Ed WoC lists (in the last 12 months) with 2-4 units of 50 Marauders with GW + MoK............... grossly overpowered cheese used by players with no actual skill at the game............... who could never win a game without the above clearly broken BS.

We can only hope that the mighty Cruddance gets to bestow his unholy touch on the DE codex sometime in the future in much the same way that he recently blighted Empire and WoC

hazmiter
04-02-2013, 11:31
One thing can be certain, the hydra will get more expensive :(
Ah well, one can always hope for a plastic hydra kit.

Leave the hydras at home, start taking shades ;) people hate shades XD

Capt._Jaelinek
04-02-2013, 20:26
Next people will start saying, leave the corsairs with SSS and mind razor at home - it's so auto win its boring. Wait, they already say that!

If every DE army loaded up on spearmen and crap heroes/lords then people would still find something to whine about.

Anyway, multiple hydras can wreck an army or get killed quickly by the right war machines. Hiding behind buildings to avoid LOS and trying up war machines with harpies, dark riders and shades is the most viable tactic. OR sacrificing the hydra to shooting but punishing the rest of the opponents army due to poor target priority is a trickier option. Try a list where the hydra is BAIT😈, tougher to do but more challenging and if the hydra survives that's just a bonus.

MarcoPollo
04-02-2013, 21:42
Try a list where the hydra is BAIT😈, tougher to do but more challenging and if the hydra survives that's just a bonus.

Although this is a challenging tactic, it looses value due to the fact that the hydra is always the same points. There are no upgrades/items for it. So using it as bait, is costing you 175 pts no matter what. It would be different if there were several builds with different points so that your opponent doesn't know what is coming. And so is also taking a risk by pursuing that bait. -- Instead, he might be guessing its worth at 150 pts, or 175 pts, or 200 pts, depending upon upgrades. If those upgrades were well thought out and balanced, then the hydra would be more than a point and click item.

And I fully agree with tmarichids on taking two or none at all. This is an all or nothing approach/tactic.

hazmiter
04-02-2013, 23:38
Now that is an interesting tactic. Use it as bait...
I've never done that though, I always run dual hydra with black guard support. I guess I'm just a person who loves them.
But the idea of a list with no hydras is tempting.... As is running 25 shades XD

Guderian1941
05-02-2013, 08:16
Next people will start saying, leave the corsairs with SSS and mind razor at home - it's so auto win its boring. Wait, they already say that!

If every DE army loaded up on spearmen and crap heroes/lords then people would still find something to whine about.

Whatever, Jaelinek. The fact is that for what it does, it costs a stupidly small amount of points (175 pts). Its regen means that even an empire cannon will probably not kill it unless they have a fire wizard (and some interpret the BRB rules as saying that fire attacks only negate regen until end of phase; in this case the magic phase, so no help to the cannon) or the Blazing Banner (at least it gives the Xbow's or HGunners a flaming attack during the shooting phase, so if done before cannon shooting the Cannon will probably kill the Hydra).

So if your mono-build one-trick pony DE list meets another list that has no fire attacks, the other list is ..cked. And all of this in 8th Ed. where Fire magic is severely underpowered vs. others like Shadow, Beasts, Heavens and Life (the kind of schools you would take if you were trying to Buff/Debuff yours and others units). So when I go to a Games-Day Tourney I have to choose a crap lore like Fire or take the Banner just because of your Hydra or some infantile Skaven players ABomb.

Result: take a balanced/all-comers Empire list to the club.............. get smashed by DE and Skaven cookie-cutter lists piloted by WAAC's with the maturity of a 12 year old and the skill level of a retarded chimp, enjoy games against other armies. So build an Empire list with a lot of regen hate (FIRE, FIRE, FIRE) and Cannon's (2-3) and Steam Tanks (2)................ F-up the WAAC's for 3 weeks until they stop bringing their abusive Bullsht lists or they sell their army for another perceived WONDER ARMY because they can't understand why they are now losing................. Then play balanced/all-comers list again until the WAAC decides to bring back the Hydra-Pendent-Cauldron list........ rinse and repeat.

I guess what I'm saying is that Hydra's are over-powered against generic army builds, severely under-costed, encourage very linear, unimaginative builds by DE players and therefore severely restrict/retard the average DE players overall skill set in the game, force other players to taylor lists specifically to deal with them. I happen to think that all of this is very bad for a club environment and very bad for the game in general.

hazmiter
05-02-2013, 12:11
Guderian, dark elves had a bad book before this one they currently have.
So keep you pants on, and untwist those knickers.
I find the hydra entertaining when used to smash up slaan death armies, you can't say dark elves are OP when you have slaan running amok.

Dual hydra can be point and click, but you also forget, dark elf players (who played with the old book, and now have all the evil awesome that is this book ) had to deal with sub par units.
So don't go spouting waac player this waac player that until you come across one.
Hell when your very first game has half (yes literally half ) of your army infernal gatewayed to hell, in a 2k match, then you can either have a sook, or fight on... I called balls, then played on, and the hydra got gatewayed turn 4 :P.

And lore of fire underpowered...... Tell that to my sorceress XD lore of fire is a blast, I use it whenever I get the chance, but again.
Besides that, your rant is completely untenable at this stage, especially since every army book seems to be getting a huge leveling out.

Guderian1941
06-02-2013, 05:04
Guderian, ...................keep you pants on, and untwist those knickers.

So don't go spouting waac player this waac player that until you come across one.

Besides that, your rant is completely untenable at this stage, especially since every army book seems to be getting a huge leveling out.

Very well, I consider myself suitably chastised :).

But I stand by my second paragraph:


I guess what I'm saying is that Hydra's are over-powered against generic army builds, severely under-costed, encourage very linear, unimaginative builds by DE players and therefore severely restrict/retard the average DE players overall skill set in the game, force other players to taylor lists specifically to deal with them. I happen to think that all of this is very bad for a club environment and very bad for the game in general.

My dislike is not aimed at DE per say, but at any over-powered army build that can only be beaten by tailored lists. Because although these "cheese" lists are overtly powerful in one or two phases of the turn, they fall apart if you intentionally target/neutralize the respective unit in that phase; again this is only possible with a specifically tailored list. I find this detracts from the gaming experience a great deal; but then again, just my opinion.

hazmiter
06-02-2013, 11:21
I guess it depends on perspective.
I see them as a challenge, to play with and against.
A lot of lists I come across take the flaming banner (it causes fear to cav if I recall)
Plus fire is a good artillary school, I dislike shadows, I prefer dark and fire... (there's a story about that, but not the thread for it).

Keeping hydras screened is a good way to protect them sorta, but protection of a hydra, makes your army compromised if i may say.

I just use them for what they are for, smashing stuff up, and to support black guard.

If your opponents tailor the list, then its time to play a different listing for a while, use other units, get a feel for the different tactics you can utilise.
Dark elves can do a fast cav army that puts others to shame (i never leave without at least 10 dark riders w crossbones)
The shades are pure murder if being a total evil elf appeals to you.
Pop 40 on a flank with hidden assassin, xtra hw, shade bombs your uncle.
Witch elf shennanigans........ Evil in numbers, with hydra banner OO and hellebron.

There's plenty of ways to put pain without hydras (but they are pretty much the only answer to steggodons :'(

Capt._Jaelinek
06-02-2013, 18:44
Guerdarian, just getting tired of the Internet whining about hydras. I totally agree they should be about 200 pts. I'm not a Storm of Magic player but iirc they are 200-225 before upgrades in that book.

Also agree HBA are a pain and probably under costed as well. They have I4 so you can't reliably pit of shades or dwellers them!😡

But, as a player I try to explore every tool in my army and have considerable fun trying out all the units in the book. Some are only useful in very specific roles or lists. The hydra is one of only 2 rare choices in our book. The other is a bolt thrower that's way over costed. So unless a DE player ignored rare completely we typically bring a hydra or 2.

Personally I only have one and it depends on the match up how it does. Against certain armies/lists its brutal, I agree. But other lists laugh and kill it in a few turns before it can do any damage.

Facing a stream tank, HBA, hydra, stegadon, etc. is a tough proposition for any army. It's hard if not impossible in an all comers list to account for all of them. It's part of the game. I have never been a Waac player, but certainly play to win. In casual games a double hydra is probably a bit much for most armies, but in a tournament setting I wouldn't think twice about it.

As we have seen before GW can't make a balanced book. If they ever get lucky enough to have that happen they will release a new BRB edition that will nerf/op it!😉

I've had my hydra get taken down by outriders, war machines and even rank n file with great weapons. It ain't easy, but it can be done.