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Tholanan
28-01-2013, 22:58
I start this post by arguing why i tink O&G should be unaligned.
First O&G alway fight for them self and only look for a good fight.
Sure they are evil in someway, but TK and OK are also evil one his undead and the other eat everything
Also O&G are not affected chaos or in some way by evil magic item. ( nagash soul was not able to control a Orc)
They don't have a real purpose or a common project. They will fight everything in there way or between them self .
There god exist because of there psychic

Jind_Singh
28-01-2013, 23:05
Well in 40k this is true to some extend - the Bloodax tribe for e.g. take after the Imperium in some ways, impressed by their 'God-emperor' for instance.

But in Fantasy the race delights in cruelty - Goblinoid tribes for instance take great delight in tourture - perhaps not as much as Dark Elves but still - you only have to read Skarsnik stories to see this (Only good dwarf is a dead dwarf or better still a dying one who will tell you where to find his mates!).

Orcs are not so much evil as bullies - they love a good fight but are totally without morals/scruples - they will destroy at will and won't hesitate to destroy the ally!

they are just too bad natured/unreliable to be counted as allies - it would be a desperate ally indeed who sided with the Greenskins!!!!

Volt
28-01-2013, 23:17
Well could you guys see Orcs aligning with an Empire or Dwarf army to fight a bigger foe?

No

I thought the general idea with Orcs and Goblins was destruction, raiding and invading?

SteveW
28-01-2013, 23:19
No, just no.

We dont need any more devision in warhammer. As the book is currently you can run an all orc or all goblin army and splitting them would acheive nothing.

woodster17
28-01-2013, 23:19
Sure they are evil in someway, but TK and OK are also evil one his undead and the other eat everything


Not sure eating everything makes you 'evil'. You saying all omnivores are evil? ;) Seriously though, they're not eating things to be malicious, just because they're hungry. Ogres can quite easily be paid off not to eat you if that coin or goods provides them with a tastier meal. OK are certainly unaligned in my eyes, they'll eat, work for and kill whatever takes their fancy, mainly because it's good to stuff down their gullet. They're opportunistic in a sense and are the definition of mercenaries. Then again, human mercenaries are employed by nefarious characters and that doesn't make all humans evil by association.

Tomb Kings- well they don't necessarily go out of their way to cause evil or harm, but will simply defend their homeland against invasion. You certainly don't see Tomb Kings marauding around the Old World like Vampiric armies can do. In many senses they are similar to the Asrai of Athel Loren. The only distinction I make is that Wood Elves aren't emotionless automaton like the Undead are in general and if forced to play their hand will always counter evil.

OnG are sadistic buggers who take great joy in slaughtering anyone they come across- women and children included. Their emotions are ruled by bloodlust and as Jind points out, goblins in particular employ torture for the hell of it. Vampires also are the antithesis of Chaos but would you argue that they aren't evil?

Edit- SteveW, the OP wasn't suggesting OnG should have seperate army books, more a theological question on their nature.

trotsky
28-01-2013, 23:37
no, just no.

We dont need any more devision in warhammer. As the book is currently you can run an all orc or all goblin army and splitting them would acheive nothing.
read
the
opening
post

ASTINOFF
29-01-2013, 02:52
No, just no.

We dont need any more devision in warhammer. As the book is currently you can run an all orc or all goblin army and splitting them would acheive nothing.

That's make no sense in this post!

reddevil18
29-01-2013, 03:00
Maybe he was just having a joke at the thread title?

But i do agree with whats been said so far, if you will destroy everything you come across without reasoning or just for a laugh you are considered evil. And as said ogres are more hungry mercenaries, feed them and they will fight for anyone.
TK lore is something i dont know much of but i have just started reading the first nagash book where he is still alive and would consider him evil, not far enough into the book to know much else.

SteveW
29-01-2013, 04:57
Oops, I read it as unaligned with eachother, not with everyone else. Being their own faction is actually a decent idea.

someone2040
29-01-2013, 06:17
I think the fact that all the Order races really really dislike Orcs and Goblins is definitely a reason why they are one of the forces of Destruction. Other than you know, all Orcs seem to care about is Destruction!
The fact that Orcs don't really care about who they fight, whether it's Humans, Dwarves, Dark Elves, Chaos, Ogres, or themselves doesn't make them any less inherently on the forces of Destruction. Just means they're just as happy fighting Destruction as Order. And well, that's part of the nature of Destruction forces, always scheming, infighting, etc to gain power.

Ogres are unaligned because they're mercenaries. They don't care so much as long as they get fed and paid.
Tomb Kings just chill in their desert. You don't annoy them, they won't annoy you.

I think the core point is that Destruction races are actively in one way or another, trying to destroy the Order aligned races. Unaligned don't really care either way. Orcs and Goblins certainly have big enemies in the Empire and the Dwarves, and I'm sure they're a pain in the neck to the Brettonians and possibly Wood Elves as well.

Urgat
29-01-2013, 06:21
We're talking from the point of view of a human (us being humans and stuff), right?
Well then, really, Orcs and goblins are evil. If they existed, you found yourself in your house in the middle of nowhere, and a few of them stumbled upon you, you'd certainly not question the fact that they are evil. Knowingly or not, evil acts are evil. A kid pulling the wings of a fly is doing something evil, even if he doesn't know it. That's why parents have to teach rights from wrongs to their children in the first place.

evilevil skullz.

GotrekFan
29-01-2013, 11:47
We're talking from the point of view of a human (us being humans and stuff), right?
Well then, really, Orcs and goblins are evil. If they existed, you found yourself in your house in the middle of nowhere, and a few of them stumbled upon you, you'd certainly not question the fact that they are evil. Knowingly or not, evil acts are evil. A kid pulling the wings of a fly is doing something evil, even if he doesn't know it. That's why parents have to teach rights from wrongs to their children in the first place.

evilevil skullz.

That's deep man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cwastoinand
29-01-2013, 13:48
I think that thy do not stand on the side Chaos because thy don,t give a rat ass about the other god, but destruction is something else. Personally I would like to see more scenario's whit mixed side's, and sometime more than 2.

BLARGAG!!!
29-01-2013, 15:16
I feel like, in the general sense, greekskins are fairly neutral. They seem to hate everyone pretty much equally. Including others of their own kind.

Orcs simply exist to kill and slaughter. They are most definitely not good, but they are not consciously evil either (ie you never see Chaos Orcs or something of that nature). They just like destroying stuff.

They are the pernicious, destructive 4 year olds of the Warhammer world. They destroy stuff because they don't really know any better.

Urgat
29-01-2013, 15:26
I feel like, in the general sense, greekskins are fairly neutral. They seem to hate everyone pretty much equally. Including others of their own kind.

Orcs simply exist to kill and slaughter. They are most definitely not good, but they are not consciously evil either (ie you never see Chaos Orcs or something of that nature). They just like destroying stuff.

They are the pernicious, destructive 4 year olds of the Warhammer world. They destroy stuff because they don't really know any better.

Excepted people overlook one thing: they certainly haven't invented buttered bread, but they do have the intelect to understand concepts, learn languages, craft, etc. They could know better. If we accept that, psychologically, they're pretty much similar to 40K orks, well, you could try and teach them. The Tau tried to talk to orks. The orks didn't want to listen, but they could have. Orks can learn languages from other species. I suppose we don't know, but it's very possible they even amused the Tau for a few minutes or more before pulling the big gunz. I believe we can accept that, in fantasy, the result would be the same. You can trade with orcs, you can communicate with them w/o them killing you, there's many examples in the fluff. They know that it's often useful to keep other species alive. Based on that, you should be able to reason with them. But no, you won't tell them what they should or shouldn't do. If they don't want to trade, they'll kill you. And yet they'll understand what you told them before they tore your head off. They'll just laugh and say killing you is more fun. They revell in their brutality, they probably can see the advantages to a somewhat peaceful human society, but they don't want that. I really think they're evil and they know it, but they don't care because evil is fun to them. It's in their genes. Unlike Dark Elves, who made themselves evil, which is, possibly, even worse.


That's deep man.

Thank you I guess, dead spirit :p

Col. Tartleton
29-01-2013, 15:27
Order vs Chaos is a campaign mechanic.

The Empire even fights against itself.

eron12
29-01-2013, 16:27
There is no evil classification in Warhammer, O&G are a force of destruction. Can someone make the argument that O&G are not far more desturctive than preservative?

Bingo the Fun Monkey
30-01-2013, 09:17
Yea, Forces of Destruction aren't the Forces of Chaos. A lot of Evil factions happen to fall under the Destruction category, but the relation doesn't go both ways. I've always felt (that my) orcs and goblins are a force of nature. A Waaagh!, like a storm, gathers pent up energy, goes on a destructive path and loses its energy as it does so. They are an expression of the universe and contribute the order of all things. Great thread, by the way.

Off Topic: if gods coalesce in the Realm of Chaos, what created the divide (or the connection) between realspace and the warp. Or what is the origin of the warhammer time-space continuum? Does the proof of a second dimension make this question answerable?

Leogun_91
30-01-2013, 09:28
When the two alignments are order and destruction orcs and goblins fall squarely into the latter.
The only greenskins who care about order in any degree is the black orcs and they are a small (though powerful) minority, every greenskin however likes destruction.
If you look at order and destruction as good and evil you could argue for them being unaligned as they fight as part of their nature and could side with anyone but if you look at it as order (a desire for organization and structure) vs destruction (a desire for slaughter and mayhem) they fall into the latter category without the shadow of a doubt.

Scythe
31-01-2013, 08:59
I dislike the notion of forces of 'order' and 'destruction' in warhammer in the first place. It is such a mismatch for many races. Races like Vampire Counts and Dark Elves don't want to destroy. They want to conquer and rule in an orderly fashion. Likewise with a good or evil classification. I wouldn't call Wood Elves 'good', going from the human point of view (and it is very debatable if any non-human race can be considered 'good' from a human point of view). And even then, humans from Cathay will probably view some things a little differently compared to humans from the Empire.

Each fraction is just that, a separate, different fraction. For me, there's no need at all to try to lump them together in bigger 'order', 'disorder' or 'neutral' fractions, which just feels like a forced thing.

Vipoid
31-01-2013, 10:16
I start this post by arguing why i tink O&G should be unaligned.
First O&G alway fight for them self and only look for a good fight.
Sure they are evil in someway, but TK and OK are also evil one his undead and the other eat everything
Also O&G are not affected chaos or in some way by evil magic item. ( nagash soul was not able to control a Orc)
They don't have a real purpose or a common project. They will fight everything in there way or between them self .
There god exist because of there psychic

Ok, I have to ask, did you punctuate this by means of a dart-board?


Anyway, as to your question - fighting anything and everything, purely for the love of fighting, sounds pretty destructive to me. :eyebrows:

Azaireal
31-01-2013, 10:53
Ogres are unaligned because they used to be Empire.
Tomb Kings are unaligned because they are far enough away from the forces of Order to not be bothered with.

Both armies should be in Forces of Destruction (based on social goals).

[Honestly, I would never really both with looking at charts to decide what alliances are to be had. Any alliance between one faction and another is based on the persons in charge. Long standing alliances are the results of many leaders cooperating over a long period of time which results with a social constructed view that the factions are aligned. It is better to have individual explanations for any give alliance in any given situation instead of adhering to a loose guideline. EX, Skaven slaves could be humans, who are armed with Empire equipment; Dark Elves could coerce High Elves into fighting a specific battle using hostages or espionage]

Leogun_91
31-01-2013, 11:02
I dislike the notion of forces of 'order' and 'destruction' in warhammer in the first place. It is such a mismatch for many races. Races like Vampire Counts and Dark Elves don't want to destroy. They want to conquer and rule in an orderly fashion. Likewise with a good or evil classification. I wouldn't call Wood Elves 'good', going from the human point of view (and it is very debatable if any non-human race can be considered 'good' from a human point of view). And even then, humans from Cathay will probably view some things a little differently compared to humans from the Empire.

Each fraction is just that, a separate, different fraction. For me, there's no need at all to try to lump them together in bigger 'order', 'disorder' or 'neutral' fractions, which just feels like a forced thing.Vampire Counts is a special case as its a faction made of several factions, Von Carsteins and Lahmians want to conquer and rule with order, they are order, Strigoi are bestial monsters most of whom are satisfied with sating their hunger (a futile wish) they are destruction, Necharchs dream of a day where everything is dead, thats destruction, Blood Dragons don't wish to rule they wish only to fight a worthy fight, thats destruction. 3 destruction vs 2 order makes them a destruction army.
Darkelves have plans to destroy the vortex and their rule isn't too orderly, in addition the cult of Khaine is purely destruction.

The main reason they divided them was to make simple well working alliance rules however and thats how one should look at them, they made sure the worst combinations backgroundswise aren't a good idea alliance wise (except woodelves and dwarfs co-operating, that makes no sense but they work great together ruleswise).

theJ
31-01-2013, 13:31
I'm with Scythe. "Order vs destruction"... works, but it's also quite boring and cheapens the factions(a lot, imho). What we need is a step closer to the alliance chart in 40K* - each faction has different relations to all other factions. That way we could avoid such nonsense as Chaos+Vampire alliances, while also allowing a classic Von Carstein list(empire+vampire).
While "Order vs Destruction" gets it right more often than not, every race is still left with a couple wtf-moments, from Dwarfs and Woodies being buddies, to Empire being immune to Chaos.

In the case of Greenskins, I'd set them as "untrustworthy" allies to big, stompy, scary armies(warriors, ogres, etc.), and "desperate" allies to small, runty, annoying ones(humans, elves, etc.) :/


*yeah, I know it's not the most accurate chart ever, but the idea is sound...

Blinder
31-01-2013, 14:24
I'm with Scythe. "Order vs destruction"... works, but it's also quite boring and cheapens the factions(a lot, imho). What we need is a step closer to the alliance chart in 40K* - each faction has different relations to all other factions. That way we could avoid such nonsense as Chaos+Vampire alliances, while also allowing a classic Von Carstein list(empire+vampire).
While "Order vs Destruction" gets it right more often than not, every race is still left with a couple wtf-moments, from Dwarfs and Woodies being buddies, to Empire being immune to Chaos.

In the case of Greenskins, I'd set them as "untrustworthy" allies to big, stompy, scary armies(warriors, ogres, etc.), and "desperate" allies to small, runty, annoying ones(humans, elves, etc.) :/


*yeah, I know it's not the most accurate chart ever, but the idea is sound...

I don't think the "order/neutral/destruction" split WFB uses really is meant to imply long-standing alliances/buddy-buddy relations as much as overall tendencies. Dwarves and Wood Elves might not be the best of friends but generally speaking if you plonked any of the "destruction" forces down next to them, they at least could be expected to work together until the mutual threat had been dealt with. Similarly, the "destruction" forces generally aren't going to share any friendship for each other but they all share just enough common goals to expect that they'd rather lay off bashing each other and bust up an Elven force that was interrupting their fun, or let each other do part of the work sacking an Empire city because they each figure they can always wipe the other out afterwards. The Skaven and DE just might make sure there are some extra "accidents" for the other saps along the way.

To me, this doesn't really cheapen the factions, it just provides a quick-and-dirty overview of who will "probably" line up together in the long run, and how well/poorly the factions would do if they were working together (and how dire the circumstances would be for it to be the case). For edge cases (Chaos/Vampire interactions, for instance) they leave it up to people interpreting the background as is appropriate for the story they're trying to tell. The big matrix they used in 40k is, IMO, fairly overkill for the way Fantasy treats alliances currently, and if anything that could actually be more appropriately applied *within* the factions if GW wanted to go totally insane with the politics (so, probably if the RPG gets an update, or a more intricate campaign system similar to Mighty Empires).

Now, as to O&G specifically... they're pretty solidly "destruction." Yeah, there are arguments that they should be in the "fragile alliance" bin, but then that's a full half of the "destruction" forces almost guaranteed to have things turn out badly compared to nobody else if you're using the rulebook's system and I'd think that would only *really* apply to pure-goblin (and maybe even pure-night goblin) forces... Orcs aren't really reliable, but they're not as outright Byzantine as DE and Skaven (or at least, tend to think they're much more successful at it than they are and thus "suspicions" don't play into things so much as "oh, ok, this is when they decide to just bash everyone").

It would be nice for VC forces to be placed based on their composition though, so if you do set up purely out of the "feels like neutral" options (or perhaps better, avoid the "yup, that's just plain destructive" ones) you had a line in a book to point at for situations where that helps keep things running smoothly.

Malorian
31-01-2013, 19:17
For a second I thought this thread was talking about breaking up orcs and goblins like how chaos was, and I was going to toss in a rant the likes of which have never been seen before. I'm glad it didn't come to that ;)


As to the actual topic, Orcs and Goblins are all about destroying whatever they come across. That's kind of the definition of the force of destruction...

Leogun_91
31-01-2013, 19:43
I don't think the "order/neutral/destruction" split WFB uses really is meant to imply long-standing alliances/buddy-buddy relations as much as overall tendencies. Dwarves and Wood Elves might not be the best of friends but generally speaking if you plonked any of the "destruction" forces down next to them, they at least could be expected to work together until the mutual threat had been dealt with.The woodelves are still kind of irritated by the dwarfs alone destroying every single colony they lived in forcing them to hide in a forest to survive, the event that caused the woodleves to exist as a separate force was "there are thousands of dwarfs that want us dead (and who show no mercy) and no army defending us", the elves who went on to become the woodelves were the elves who loved their country to much to abandon it for Uluthuan and who saw the dwarfs burn each single colony to the ground, killing warriors, women and children without mercy for a "grudge that can only be settled in elf blood". I have seen no event in the fluff where dwarfs and woodelves have met on friendly terms. If I put down a skaven army next to a dwarf army and a woodelf army I'm not sure what alliance, if any, would be formed. The dwarfs have a deeper hatred of the skaven, the woodelves a deeper hatred with the dwarfs and the skaven a deeper hatred for the dwarfs.

I would prefer a simple alliance chart, its not perfect but it works better than the current alternative.

Malorian
31-01-2013, 19:54
I would prefer a simple alliance chart, its not perfect but it works better than the current alternative.

That's what they have in 40k now and even that doesn't work.

Guard and tyranids can't be allies? What if I want a genestealer cult?

The issue is that there are so many different bitz of fluff that it's hard for a charge to cover them all.


Personally I would just do away with the whole system. You want to ally? Go for it. These are the limits on how much of your army can be allies. Done.

corps
31-01-2013, 21:28
i say yes they are like ogre a good fight . plus they are only two neutral t will equilibrate the categories.

Jadawin
01-02-2013, 03:08
I have always imagined orcs to be like a Viking raiding party, lots of looting and killing but evil? I'm not so sure. Goblins on the other hand I imagine to be more calculating and cruel therefore evil in nature rather than slaves to their instincts like orcs .

Sheena Easton
01-02-2013, 03:27
Greenskins fit firmly in the box marked "Destruction". This doesn't mean they will happily make daisy chains with Chaos Warriors and let Dark Elves braid their hair squigs, it means they like to break stuff.


the Bloodax tribe

Its the Bloodaxe Clan.

Scythe
01-02-2013, 07:05
Vampire Counts is a special case as its a faction made of several factions, Von Carsteins and Lahmians want to conquer and rule with order, they are order, Strigoi are bestial monsters most of whom are satisfied with sating their hunger (a futile wish) they are destruction, Necharchs dream of a day where everything is dead, thats destruction, Blood Dragons don't wish to rule they wish only to fight a worthy fight, thats destruction. 3 destruction vs 2 order makes them a destruction army.
Darkelves have plans to destroy the vortex and their rule isn't too orderly, in addition the cult of Khaine is purely destruction.

An extremely narrow point of view, which doesn't do the sublimities of the different fractions justice at all. And false as well. Necrachs share the dream of Nagash, a world filled with order. Blood Dragons purely seer martial perfection. This doesn't make them different from things like swordmasters, or grail knights. Slayers also seek worthly foes to die against in battle. I guess this makes Dwarves, High Elves and Brettonia destructive forces as well, following your reasoning. Strigoi mainly shun themselves from the outside world. They rarely conquer stuff, and as long as they're left alone, they are ok with their situation, a bit like Wood Elves. Keep in mind that Ushoran, the first Stirgoi, lived together with mortals, and defended them against the Orcs. And for the Dark Elves: remember Khaine is a generic Elven god? Dark Elves believe they have the power to rule everything, and their kingdom is actually pretty stable and orderly. Brutal? Yes, but it has had the same ruler for thousands of years, and it has repelled any invasions. The people of the Empire quite often have open warfare between themselves, how is that orderly then?


The main reason they divided them was to make simple well working alliance rules however and thats how one should look at them, they made sure the worst combinations backgroundswise aren't a good idea alliance wise (except woodelves and dwarfs co-operating, that makes no sense but they work great together ruleswise).

Except it doesn't really work, background wise. Vampires allying with Chaos makes as little sense as Wood Elves and Dwarfs being best buddies. And humans have fought with and against practically everything in the background.


I'm with Scythe. "Order vs destruction"... works, but it's also quite boring and cheapens the factions(a lot, imho). What we need is a step closer to the alliance chart in 40K* - each faction has different relations to all other factions. That way we could avoid such nonsense as Chaos+Vampire alliances, while also allowing a classic Von Carstein list(empire+vampire).
While "Order vs Destruction" gets it right more often than not, every race is still left with a couple wtf-moments, from Dwarfs and Woodies being buddies, to Empire being immune to Chaos.


Indeed, an allies chart as in 40K would make be better. Actually, I would argue it works better in fantasy as it works in 40k, with the extremely xenophobic Imperium being the focus of 40k.


That's what they have in 40k now and even that doesn't work.

Guard and tyranids can't be allies? What if I want a genestealer cult?

The issue is that there are so many different bitz of fluff that it's hard for a charge to cover them all.


Personally I would just do away with the whole system. You want to ally? Go for it. These are the limits on how much of your army can be allies. Done.

But this might indeed be the best option. Ally rules limit the possible combinations which can occur, and you might always run in a situation in which you may want to play with an unusual alliance, for whatever reason.

Leogun_91
01-02-2013, 08:57
An extremely narrow point of view, which doesn't do the sublimities of the different fractions justice at all. And false as well. Necrachs share the dream of Nagash, a world filled with order. Blood Dragons purely seer martial perfection. This doesn't make them different from things like swordmasters, or grail knights. Slayers also seek worthly foes to die against in battle. I guess this makes Dwarves, High Elves and Brettonia destructive forces as well, following your reasoning. Strigoi mainly shun themselves from the outside world. They rarely conquer stuff, and as long as they're left alone, they are ok with their situation, a bit like Wood Elves. Keep in mind that Ushoran, the first Stirgoi, lived together with mortals, and defended them against the Orcs. And for the Dark Elves: remember Khaine is a generic Elven god? Dark Elves believe they have the power to rule everything, and their kingdom is actually pretty stable and orderly. Brutal? Yes, but it has had the same ruler for thousands of years, and it has repelled any invasions. The people of the Empire quite often have open warfare between themselves, how is that orderly then?Necrachs wish to achieve order through total destruction of every living thing, they wish a world of undeath, and it's more absolute death than absolute order, everlasting death is the goal. I find that extremely in the destruction part even though a world were everything is dead would have order, in its own way.
Strigoi and woodelves both want to be left alone mostly but only one of them constatly hunts and kills other races, sure its due to their nature but its still destructive, a Strigoi could be left alone if it stopped eating people, or even if it stopped eating more than it needed.
Slayers, Grailknights and Swordsmasters are not the voice of their people, and grailknights do their quests due to divine inspiration and search out monsters to defend their land. It doesn't matter how bloodthirsty a slayer is, dwarfs still strive for order, slayers are the outcasts, many slayers became slayers due to failing to keep the order dwarf wish to have. Swordsmasters are also a minority and while both swordsmasters and Blooddragons strive for martial perfection only one does it in a destructive way, trying for martial perfection without searching out and killing people isn't destructive.
I would be happy to have Vampires moved to Neutral though.

The darkelves are a bit wrong placed and the best way to justify it is the cult of Khaine (other elves worship Khaine but not in that way) which is destruction all the way, and when destruction (or more specifically murder) is sacred that at least inches you over to the destruction camp.

TheDungen
01-02-2013, 15:11
orcs usually end up fighting the strongest side just for the heck of it, just look at SoC, as the tables turn more and more on the mortal world the orcs will do what the old ones designed them for and wage war, and in the end they might be the only faction that could take on chaos, but whoever wins everyone else loses. The orcs&goblins are unaligned because they only really care for themselves, and even then mostly themselves. Orcs are a bit like those lab rats that pushged the button until they died, they gain satisfaction from fighting and killing and that's all that matters to them.
Goblins are a little harder to figure out.

Scythe
11-02-2013, 06:08
Necrachs wish to achieve order through total destruction of every living thing, they wish a world of undeath, and it's more absolute death than absolute order, everlasting death is the goal. I find that extremely in the destruction part even though a world were everything is dead would have order, in its own way.

A point of view. It is not any more valid than other ways of looking at it. And that's my point; the warhammer world is not (and should not) be black and white. The distinction between order and destruction is a bad one.


Strigoi and woodelves both want to be left alone mostly but only one of them constatly hunts and kills other races, sure its due to their nature but its still destructive, a Strigoi could be left alone if it stopped eating people, or even if it stopped eating more than it needed.

You mean Wood Elves don't hunt and kill any trespasser in their woods?


Slayers, Grailknights and Swordsmasters are not the voice of their people,

Have you looked in the background? Louen Leoncoeur, the king of Brettonia, has the Grail vow. What about Ungrim Ironfist, the Dwarf slayer king? Or the blind version of Eltharion, the elf prince trained by the swordmasters?


and grailknights do their quests due to divine inspiration and search out monsters to defend their land. It doesn't matter how bloodthirsty a slayer is, dwarfs still strive for order, slayers are the outcasts, many slayers became slayers due to failing to keep the order dwarf wish to have. Swordsmasters are also a minority and while both swordsmasters and Blooddragons strive for martial perfection only one does it in a destructive way, trying for martial perfection without searching out and killing people isn't destructive.

Very weak and subjective arguments. I could say the same for Blood Dragon vampires, or even that some Khorne lords who strive for martial perfection (which was kind of a big thing some editions ago).

Dr. Cheesesteak
11-02-2013, 06:18
TK and OK are also evil one his undead and the other eat everything
Hey, I eat a lot of stuff... :shifty:

Malagor
11-02-2013, 07:08
Poor Ogres. They are just trying to have a nice meal and people call them evil :(
Anyway Orcs are fine where they are. It fits them perfectly.
If there is suppose to be any changes to the alliance chart it should be with the forces of Order.

CrystalSphere
11-02-2013, 12:26
I think that ogres being neutral sets a precedent for O&G possibly being neutral too. Anyone remembers the greenskin Dogs of War regiments? Ruglud armored orcs and the Hobgoblin riders, both were mercenary forces but dwarf armies were not allowed to use them. In the old days, greenskins were similar to ogres and they also used actual money, instead of teeth.

I think the current depiction of O&G suits the more wild tribes, like savage orcs, but i think that there should also be more "civilized" Orcs, kinda like ogres, who can interact with other races without inmediately attacking them. In 40k Orks arenīt as savage as fantasy, and they can sometimes work with other races even if it is only short-term.

Making O&G neutral also helps differentiate them from other horde races, like Skaven, who are looking for world domination, while the orcs are simply looking for a fight, doesnīt matter who it is. The fact that they donīt care who they fight, is the main reason they should be willing to fight for anybody, and therefore fits more with the ogres in the neutral group, rather than the group bent on world domination.

Volt
11-02-2013, 20:32
Making O&G neutral also helps differentiate them from other horde races, like Skaven, who are looking for world domination, while the orcs are simply looking for a fight, doesnīt matter who it is. The fact that they donīt care who they fight, is the main reason they should be willing to fight for anybody, and therefore fits more with the ogres in the neutral group, rather than the group bent on world domination.

And this is why they are an order of destruction. They want to fight (ie DESTROY) any and everything, unlike the order races who mostly fight to defend or to expand their lands.

Maybe if allies (or Dogs of War)were properly introduced, their could be certain instances or specific regiments (Ruglud's as pointed out) that could be neutral. But the whole race?

TheDungen
11-02-2013, 21:25
yeah i don't think tomb kings are any more evil than the empire or brettonia, i think it'd be cool if they started tilting their fluff towards being one of the good races. Very few settings have good undead factions.