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View Full Version : Trying to make beastmen ambush work.



fishound7
29-01-2013, 13:23
Ok i know beastmen ambush is not popular but i really want to get it to work or work as much as possible.

I think the key is you don't have to go into ambush if you don't want too. Thinking around 2500 point limit.

So i'd like to have a flexible list say 2 40 man ungor (no cmd) and 2 40 man gor units (no cmd or minimal or only one unit) and 2 10 man raiders so you could go into ambush if it was desired due to the type of army your facing. This is a solid line if your not ambushing and only 960 points if taken with minimal upgrades for the blocks. Also by having 2 blocks and raiders that can ambush if you want them too you have higher chances to ambush turn 1 by having 3 ambushing units.
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Also i think it would be worth it to take a single bray-shaman as lore of the wild. The reason being if you roll on wild and get savage dominion you could have a large beasty for free supporting your ambushing units. You also roll for your spells prior to deployment and prior to selecting if your going to ambush or not. So if you get savage dominion you might want to ambush when otherwise you wouldn't. Park your wizard near the herdstone so your generating extra dice while the shaman is occupied from savage dominion. If you don't get a ok'ish spell from lore of wild then you can use the default spell to help move your line up faster or ghetto reposition. Stick the shaman in a 10 man ungor raiders unit so it can move around to where it is needed behind the main line. I don't feel its worth it to have a lvl 4 as wild to make sure you get savage dominion. Your lvl 4 has better options.

I believe a must in a ambushing list would be Horn of the First beast (giving units within 36" reroll on primal fury, Basically the entire board depending where your main line is set up.) Giving the potential ambushers a reroll. I would think giving the horn to a non bsb. which means a non bsb wargor or beastlord which is gettin pricer. So if the bsb dies you still have reroll's or vice versa. Also if you were to take centigors (i know not popular) you can almost ensure that they have a primal fury reroll which mino's and razorgors don't get.

I think the list would probably been done best with a herdstone.
and a couple units of ungor raiders to counter light chaff and for casters/bsb/general to bunker in.

Special charactor ungrol can be taken to lead the 40 ungors if they were to ambush. He's pretty cheap. Can be hitty or magicey depending on special rule. If the ungors were to ambush they would have leadership 7 instead of 6 since they will be operating outside of the general's leadership. If put in the line the 40 ungors can operate outside of the leadership bubble as ungrol doesn't benefit from the general's leadership.

Ghorros could be interesting option due to if he dies you get +1 leadership to army for primal fury. Which would be useful for the ambushers. Ghorros brings his weapon which is a monster killer so that could help in handling that threat.

If your fighting open list opponents i think ambush list would work decently. If your playing closed lists i don't think it would be worth it as much since you won't know if you should ambush or not. But you could gauge it on army type too i guess.

I think lore of shadow would probably be best taken by the majority of the mages due to its range.

If you could squeeze a cygor in i think it has decent synergy with a ambushing list but i think it would be too pricey

You still have plenty of room to add a lot of flavor into the list.

I'm interested in hearing other peoples idea's. Is this not optimal for a ambushing list? I was thinking larger blocks so i have options. Would it be better to take multiple 30 man units of gors? I think one 40 or 50 ungor unit is decent regardless. i don't know about having 2 though.

Memnos
29-01-2013, 19:32
Armies have several different parts to them: The first is the 'core' of the army. That can be mobility, massive damage, etc.

Then, there are secondary parts to an army. These are usually support items like Cannons and/or ranged weapons designed to eliminate other secondary threats so your primary threats can go on.

The last are the least important part of the army: Special Effects. In this case, Beastmen have a lot of Special Effects. The Cygor has a special effect on other Wizards - It's unlikely they'll fail their leadership test and, even if they do, even less likely they'll roll below the casting value of a spell. It might occasionally happen, but it's not something to build a tactic around.

Ambush is an army-wide 'special effect'. It means that an army unit may or may not show up on the turn you want and it may or may not show up in an area that will be useful. In fact, if you're facing a centrally deployed army it can be all but useless. Against corner-deployers, it could theoretically help, but in most cases it's simply better to deploy. Also, Ghorros dying provides a reroll and not +1 to roll, and the Horn doesn't do anything even remotely close to rerolling primal fury. It's a bound spell that... Well, you should probably just read the book.

The point is: You can build an army with ambushing, and you can minimize issues with it by taking a certain special character, but it will almost always be better to simply deploy. Building your tactics around Ambush is like building an Orc and Goblin army around Squighoppers with the idea that you'll roll the triple sixes for movement and always get impact hits.

fishound7
29-01-2013, 21:27
horn is not a bound item. it just provides a primal fury reroll with a 36" range from carrier with a diameter of 72 inches so basically the entire board unless you deployed in a corner. The other horn that provides bestial surge is a bound item not the horn of first beast.

I don't think the cygor or ghorros would really be worth it in a 2500 point list maybe in 3000 point list. I think as the point value of the battle goes up ambushing becomes more viable. I wouldn't be taking the cygor for its lame wizard special effects. I'd be taking a cygor for its stone throwing ability and being a ok'ish monster. Its ability to move closer to the fight while supporting either the line or the ambushers through stone throwing is why i think the cygor would be a little more viable and also being able to have terror on the flank. Again i think it is too costly thou.

A centrally deployed army would be ideal for a ambushing army. As your only a turn away from the fight at most. Beastman movement is not terrible. If you roll a 1 your opponent gets to pick which will most likely be your side of the board where your lore of the wild shaman will be in the backline so you could use him to get that unit to catch up with the rest of the line. What would not be ideal is an army that deploys all to one side as you have a 1/3 chance of not being able to deploy where needed and a further 1/6 chance of getting the wrong side of the board.

If your bringing 2 or 3 potential ambushing units you increase the chances of getting turn 1 ambush on the board. If the ambushers come late into the game you can either place for point denial or since the unit was not on the board you bring a fresh unit with lots of ranks so you could provide steadfast where needed hopefully.


Anyway the whole thing is the army should be solid without ambushing. I'd just like to have the option of ambushing. I don't like the idea of taking minimal units for ambushing as that is just wasted points and barely does anything anyway.

Also depending on where ambushers deploy lore of wild bray can speed up the line when ambushers get deployed in a favorable position.
Ideally you should bring lots of chaff so you could get decent match ups and clog a flank where your ambushers would have been.

You would ambush armies that are warmachine dependant and bunker armies.

Memnos
30-01-2013, 09:46
You would ambush armies that are warmachine dependant and bunker armies.

That would appear to be true - It isn't, but that's probably what the writer intended when he put the rule in.

Let's look at what you're really investing: A large unit of - Let's pick the least expensive one: Ungor. A unit of(say) 20. You need to take a second unit of 20, meaning you're running about 200 points without any command or weapon upgrades, and you can't deploy characters with the exception of a single unit champion upgrade that may or may not be a warrior when you need it - Just naked Ungor. At this point, assuming you're facing an opponent with war machines, you have to remember the following:

The average table is 72" by 48". You deploy 12" on, and most enemies have to set up their war machines at least 6" on to get any kind of field of vision.

You can either choose to run two small units of Ungor, one of which will not be great for any real fights and will be deployed across the field, or you can field two units of Harpies on the fields - One to distract his bigger units and allow the other to slip by and hit his war machines. Exact same cost.

In an ideal situation, you show up in the first turn, right behind him. That's a 1/6 chance of doing so. Maybe he messes up and places in a corner, in which case you have another 1/6 chance of getting the right corner. That's a 1/3 chance, assuming you're facing an opponent who doesn't know what Ambush does. If that's the case, know that his war machines will be firing - Not at your chaff, because most of your 'chaff' is off the board, but at your main combat units. That's not something you want, so even in the ideal situation, you get a second turn charge and they spend their turn firing at your Bestigor.


The Harpies set up 12 inches on, move forward 20 and then charge an average of about 18-19 inches. That's 50 inches. Even if your opponent set up in the very rear, you'd still hit him. Practically guaranteed. Or you could use Centigor and hit a whole lot harder. I can't think of very many war machines that can go toe-to-toe with 11 S5, rerollable attacks. The Centigor set up 12 inches, move 16 and charge 16. That's about 44 inches. Depending on the base size of the war machine, they would hit second turn as well if they set up 1-2 inches on.

Just buy the Chalice of Dark Rain. It's a better investment, protects your main army and is less expensive.

Know that this isn't an attack on your idea - But there are a ton of Beastmen players on here and I can't think of any that would suggest ambushing. In an absolute ideal situation for Ambushing, you have a 1/3 chance of hitting what you want on the second turn, but a considerably better chance of hitting them with Harpies, Centigor.

It sounds like your heart is set on this - Definitely try it. See if it works. If it doesn't, you've only lost a few games. Maybe there's something the rest of us didn't see. I wish you luck and hope that we can see a new tactic for our Beastly brethren out of it.

Catflap
30-01-2013, 12:58
Maybe Khazrak the one-eye is an option for you? Re-roll the ambush dice.
Besides that , Khazrak is a killer in close combat with his whip especialy vs hordes. 10 attacks? yes please!