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RunepriestRidcully
29-01-2013, 16:43
Had another game of lotr last night, again my Ereigon list was against Dwarfs, and again I got slaughtered (was on model of making him take courage tests, and he said I had terrible luck). In it, my 4 high elf warriors with elf bows did nothing at all, disptie having 4/5 turns of shooting, though Erestors throwing daggers did kill a herald.
My opponent said how he feels shooting does nothing, and so he never takes any, which I guess for Dwarfs, is okay as exes is more visual thing, but part of the high elf visual is their bowfire, and the fact over half the models you get in the boxes come with them.
So is shooting really useless when you think about the pts put into it?

Whitwort Stormbringer
29-01-2013, 17:36
I personally find that it's a bit all over the place, but in my experience handling high elves their shooting is usually very good, although I've never played them against dwarves. I've also found, in my experience, that elves don't do that well against heavily armored or elite opponents (I have a rough time dealing with Uruk-hai), and that the best tactic against dwarves is to overwhelm them (despite being so puny, a swarm of moria goblins is one of the scariest things a dwarf army can face).

What immediately struck me about your post, though, was that you only have 4 archers. With those numbers, you're looking at 2-3 hits per turn, and therefore only 1 wound every 2-3 turns on average, assuming you're in range and there are no "in-the-way" rolls. It's not hard to see how, with some bad luck, that would turn out to be no kills in 5-4 turns. For most armies I go the all or nothing approach to archers, and that's especially true for elves whose archers are more expensive and for whom every trooper really counts. It's not worth sinking the points into a couple of troops that will probably end up ineffectual at range and ultimately only be softer targets in melee.

RunepriestRidcully
29-01-2013, 18:14
Yeah I guess, but that's the bow limit for you :/ Shame as a force that consisted Numenorians and elves where most of the elves were using bows would look pretty good. Problem for me as there not that many players, and most play dwarfs.
Must admit I really like the numenorian archer models as well, and are they worth it if you took themin groups of at least 8 strong? I'd do that with the elves as well, but due to their pts cost could only do that in higher pts games.
I really wish there some cheaper heroes, orelve had some exception or leeway with the bow limit.

BTJ
29-01-2013, 19:29
What size game were you playing that you could only fit four bows in?

RunepriestRidcully
29-01-2013, 19:44
200pts, I was supposed to be having a 40k game, but my opponent did not show and so another guy asked if I had my lord the rings stuff, which I did but I had left all my heroes other then Erestor at home as I am still finishing them, so we played 200pts.
Just thought, do Throwing daggers count towards the bow limit?

Whitwort Stormbringer
30-01-2013, 07:53
Ah, well yeah, then you don't have a lot of options. If you had enough models to run an all-melee warband then that's what I probably would have done in this instance, but in such a small game you don't have a lot of wiggle room. Dunno about Erestor and his throwing daggers.

BTJ
30-01-2013, 09:10
IIRC throwing weapons are exempt from the bow limit, as are models who can throw stones. It's just bows and crossbows.

RunepriestRidcully
30-01-2013, 09:17
That's a relief. Yeah, in future I think I will stick with pure mellee at lower pts levels unless I am facing guys with little/no armour :P
I am wondering if people have found a good number of bows per pts level, though I admit I am thinking in higher pts levels of using some durins folk allies just to get the ballista (well the last alliance had to have some seige weapons :P Plus I am sure the dwarfs helped out in the last Alliance).

Spiney Norman
30-01-2013, 15:31
Even more than previously shooting is go big or go home. Orcs are totally out of the arms race now because if they move they are only ever hitting on 6s, in fact shooting with anything other than a crossbow (which remain as devastating as ever) has been reduced in effectiveness.

I suspect that the Grey Company or Haradrim armies could still pull off shooting to good effect, likewise a rider-heavy rohan force could also do well, the really dangerous shooting armies now are White Hand Uruk Hai and Corsair lists with a lot of Crossbows. Essentially, taking into account the general archery nerf that teh Hobbit brought, you now need to decide when buidling your army, "can this army do shooting", and then either build for it by packing in as many bows as possible, or ignore it completely.

RunepriestRidcully
30-01-2013, 16:59
Ouch, must admit I don't have a copy of the hobbit rules yet, mostly everyone in my club is happy to stick with the last edition of LOTR, the one guy who wants to move to the hobbit ones does not have the book (the cost of which being the main reason everyone is sticking with the last one, that and some of us are not sure that some of the changes we have heard of are for the better.)
The bow limit combined with the warbands rule is proving a real problem, because of them I can only fit about 8-10 bowmen max in my 500pts list, though that may be a problem due to the high elves stupidly high prices for everything (Except Gilgalad, he's awesome :P) though even if I ran numenorians with just the captains of numenor in the cheapest load out, that's only 12-14 bowmen, though the idea of a Numenorian hoard is interesting...

mostlyharmless
30-01-2013, 17:03
This thread is making me seriously reconsider packing in those 10 dwarf rangers with bows into my 1000pt dwarf army. I may have to switch to throwing axes.

Before The Hobbit archery nerf, you basically took as many bows as you could. Why? Because arrows are pointy and hurt, alot. You could make a good impact on your opponent's battle line with a few good volleys. Now . . . not so much.

RunepriestRidcully
30-01-2013, 17:22
Were there any others apart from the movement penalty? As it is I am struggling to figure out how to get the bowmen in my Ereigon last alliance force in enough numbers to work, and was hoping to counter the move and shoot nerf by trying to get them into a good position and then staying there/using volly fire, but if there is others......
I decided not to do warriors of chaos for fantasy as they had next to no shooting and vus not much real tactics, I don't want LOTR to be like that as well.

BTJ
30-01-2013, 17:48
The only nerf I've noticed is the move and shoot nerf. And tbh, it doesn't really effect elves as much as orcs or goblins. The main PITA with it is actually throwing weapons, makes thinning the herd a little trickier.

RunepriestRidcully
30-01-2013, 23:55
It applies to throwing weapons, even though due to their range if someone is using them they are probably trained in using them on the move?

BTJ
31-01-2013, 09:45
Applies to everything ranged. If you move and shoot in the same turn your shoot value is one point worse. They actually have a table for in the way rolls too. I like it, means shooting someone in grass isn't as hard as shooting someone hiding in a fortress

Spiney Norman
31-01-2013, 13:14
The only nerf I've noticed is the move and shoot nerf. And tbh, it doesn't really effect elves as much as orcs or goblins. The main PITA with it is actually throwing weapons, makes thinning the herd a little trickier.

What it does mean is that armies like the grey company and bow heavy Haradrim can no longer expect to annihilate the enemy just by pouring arrows on to them. I've seen some ugly Haradrim lists with 30+ archers/watchers and archer captains clustered around the betrayer causing a right mess.

Archery is now about thinning the enemy before they get to you, which in fairness is what it has been about for most armies in last edition. I think it is fair to say that archery was a little too powerful in the previous edition, and I like the fact that they have relaxed the bow limit with several of the games armies to take into account the move-and-shoot nerf. There never was a particularly good reason to restrict archery other than a prop to achieve game balance, if the restriction is being eased and the game is still working that means the rule set is balancing itself.

BTJ
31-01-2013, 14:20
I actually love it, my only issue is it makes throwing weapons useless on shot 5+ minis. Combined with the new in the way chart the game looks a bit better for that alone. I really do love the new rules, it's a mature evolution of the last rulebook, the way an edition change should happen

fracas
01-02-2013, 14:50
I thought there was no more volley fire at all

RunepriestRidcully
01-02-2013, 15:25
Really? Ouch, They really did not like shooting did they?