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Rufus
30-01-2013, 04:21
I just happen to notice the new WoC models posted on games workshop's website. I'll admit it was a quick glance but does anyone else share a disappointment with the new models? The armour and the mutations are so similar to 40k, I like the division between fantasy and 40k...Or the direction chaos has gone for some time? Is it blasphemous to suggest that things where better with demons and chaos warriors united? And to bounce off the united thread, I long for the day that chaos was divided, when the gods would loathe to ally with their enemies... Sure the idea of Khorne juggernauts rampaging with the support of a Tzeench lord on a disc is awesome, but I miss the days when that would be scoffed upon...
Perhaps I am a nostalgic old fool.

Doommasters
30-01-2013, 04:40
TBH I am just happy another book is being converted to 8th edition and there are some new models for people to paint. You can spend your life being disappointed with Fantasy and 40k stay happy) but the best part about models is that there are so many compies out there now you can convert to your hearts content. The big thing for me will be how they bring some of the subpar choices up to speed and keep the powercreep in check.

m1acca1551
30-01-2013, 05:16
Well for the most part i am quite disappointed with the sculpts, will with hold judgment on the book till i see it.

The problem is that WoC and CSM are to very iconic races within there perspective settings and lately have been seen to be mishandled.

My fondest memories of WoC are when 6th?? plastic maruders, warriors were re-done etc made for very happy days, the book was very chaos you had everything in 1 book!!! daemons, beastmen and mortals!!!! OMG they were the days when i actually felt like a chaos warlord controlling multitudes of different units in 1 grad army. When the books were split it really took away from the character of the army and made them just another faction not the impeding doom and death that they were.

Oh well, as much as i would like to sit here and think of "back in my day" :P we have to play with the hand dealt or pass and wait for the next deal.

TheDungen
30-01-2013, 05:48
6th ed chaos was nice and i miss the ability to mix but once they add 40k style ally rules in warhammer you'll have it again.
But my fondest memory of chaos is the 5th (?) champions of chaos book.

Voss
30-01-2013, 06:51
The armour and the mutations are so similar to 40k, I like the division between fantasy and 40k...
What division? Anyway, you have it backwards, the similar elements were and are ported to 40k from fantasy, not the other way around. For all the 40k is often the more 'popular' system, it all comes from fantasy.


I long for the day that chaos was divided, when the gods would loathe to ally with their enemies...
This still bugs me. But I'll happily crush rivals who dabble in such heresies and apostasy.

Rufus
30-01-2013, 15:39
The divisions that I mean are really specific, and I should have clarified but I was using my smartphone... Its the armour on one of the champions, just reminded me to much of power armour, its nit picky and my opinion. I miss the days of Realm of chaos, I was young we ran narrative campaingns and had a blast, and in those days you could end up with some 40k equipment if you got lucky, technological weapons and such...
Now I want to build a khorne list to bring back the animosities of the gods...

snottlebocket
30-01-2013, 16:35
4th edition was pretty much the high point of chaos. The army itself was a huge melting pot of brigands who'd thrown in their lot with chaos, dedicated chaos warriors, beasts and mutants who had no choice in the matter and the demons of the gods them self.

Rules wise it had a card based chaos gift system that basically made the player a chaos god, dispensing mutations as he sees fit, leaving it up to chance which followers are strong enough to sustain the wracking powers and which turn into spawn.

After the 4th chaos is just getting increasingly diluted.

Leogun_91
30-01-2013, 17:58
I miss the days of Realm of chaos, I was young we ran narrative campaingns and had a blast, and in those days you could end up with some 40k equipment if you got lucky, technological weapons and such...Dig up the old rules and get your gaming group to do it again, possibly with updated rules. Why miss something that isn't really lost, if you all enjoyed it, re-do it, unless its your gaming buddies your missing there shouldn't be any problems. And as an added bonus the new forsaken kit is filled with mutations to allow you easy conversions when your troops gain mutations during the narrative campaign.
New rules only obsoletes old ones if you want them to (or more likely if your gaming group wants them to, its more than one person playing), if your group enjoyed the old ones more, use them instead. For pick-up battles and tournaments its the latests rules that count but for narrative campaigns its whatever you want.

Odin
30-01-2013, 18:38
I just happen to notice the new WoC models posted on games workshop's website. I'll admit it was a quick glance but does anyone else share a disappointment with the new models? The armour and the mutations are so similar to 40k, I like the division between fantasy and 40k...Or the direction chaos has gone for some time? Is it blasphemous to suggest that things where better with demons and chaos warriors united? And to bounce off the united thread, I long for the day that chaos was divided, when the gods would loathe to ally with their enemies... Sure the idea of Khorne juggernauts rampaging with the support of a Tzeench lord on a disc is awesome, but I miss the days when that would be scoffed upon...
Perhaps I am a nostalgic old fool.

Now, when I first chose Chaos as my army, 20 years ago, I had troops of all different gods, and of all sorts of types - beastmen, warriors, daemons, centaurs, dragon ogres... that's what I still think of. Yes, I like some level of animosity between the gods, and I don't like to see an army of Tzeentch sorcerers leading Khorne Warriors, but I also think that the whole mono-God purist thing is an artificial tradition, one that came about largely with the restrictions of 6th Edition Hordes of Chaos.

The way I see it, it's Chaos, throw it all in there. Anyone remember the battle report when the first Realm of Chaos expansion was released? The converted Slaaneshi Lord on a dragon, dog-faced Khorne hero leading a unit of beastmen, Tzeentch guy on a disc and all manner of chaotic stuff, up against the Dwards led by Ungrim Ironfist. For me, that is still my favourite battle report. Rose-tinted glasses are no doubt a part of that, but the feeling of playing Chaos back in those days is one I have spent the last 15 years trying unsuccessfully to recapture.

...er, I may have lost the thread a bit here....

...oh yes. So, I reckon something like the old retinue system from 5th (?) edition would be the best idea. So, for example, if you want a unit of Khorne troops, you need to have either an unmarked general or a Khorne character in the army. If all your characters are Tzeentch, you can only have Tzeentch or unmarked troops.



4th edition was pretty much the high point of chaos. The army itself was a huge melting pot of brigands who'd thrown in their lot with chaos, dedicated chaos warriors, beasts and mutants who had no choice in the matter and the demons of the gods them self.

Rules wise it had a card based chaos gift system that basically made the player a chaos god, dispensing mutations as he sees fit, leaving it up to chance which followers are strong enough to sustain the wracking powers and which turn into spawn.

After the 4th chaos is just getting increasingly diluted.

Yes.

A side-effect of the split is that GW are scrabbling around trying to come up with increasingly clunky ways to fill out the range of three different armies. 3 different variations on a Slaaneshi daemon chariot thing?

To use a rather silly analogy, my musical tastes are pretty varied, and include metal, soul and ska. Now imagine that I get told I can't have all three types, I have to choose one, but that's alright, because if I can have three times as many albums of the type of music I choose. But I don't want that, because it's still just variations of the same thing, and I want my variety. Silly analogy, as I say, but that's how I feel about the splitting up of my Chaos army.

Fortunately, my regular opponent is happy with pretty flexible housrules.

AlphariusOmegon20
30-01-2013, 18:53
I, for one, am VERY disappointed in these sculpts, but then the Warshrine should have a been an indicator of where they were going. With the possible exception of the Dragon Ogres (let's face it, they ARE better than the sculpts we had before.) the book and cards, I have ZERO intention of getting anything else of the new stuff, and that includes the warshrine and it's previous accompanying releases. It's all godawful looking.

I for one am one of those when the single pose Warriors came out, rejoiced. They were easy to rank up, and most importantly, looked GOOD. I was hoping that this aestetic would continue for years to come, Sadly this is apparently not the case, as it seems GW has gone back to the garbage 5th/6th ed. style of sculpting for Chaos. Looks like I'll be shelving my 50K points of WoC for a long while, until the aesthetic changes back to the "7th ed" style, or will be converting a LOT of stuff if I do not shelve it.

What aggravates me is the pic of Vilitich from the last book looked cool, and could have easily been produced long before now. A guy in China sculpted a model to look IDENTICAL to it ( along with identical copies of the art for Kholek and Throgg), and sells them on ebay. Why couldn't GW do that? Apparently we have another casualty of the Chapterhouse case.

Scammel
30-01-2013, 19:28
What aggravates me is the pic of Vilitich from the last book looked cool, and could have easily been produced long before now. A guy in China sculpted a model to look IDENTICAL to it ( along with identical copies of the art for Kholek and Throgg), and sells them on ebay. Why couldn't GW do that? Apparently we have another casualty of the Chapterhouse case.

That surprises me. For me Vilitch was a cool concept ruined by his art, some robed Goblin sat on the shoulders of a drooling idiot wasn't exactly inspiring. Whilst the new model has failings, the concept of the model is far more Chaotic and sinister in my eyes - that Goblin is now a pale, eyeless thing clearly bonded to the flesh of an armoured brute. Furthermore, I don't see how it's really got anything to do with CHS.


Looks like I'll be shelving my 50K points of WoC for a long while, until the aesthetic changes back to the "7th ed" style, or will be converting a LOT of stuff if I do not shelve it.


I don't mean to be argumentative, but why are you shelving what you already have when it's the new models you don't have to buy that are the issue?

snottlebocket
30-01-2013, 19:45
I quite like the Vilitch model really. It's a welcome departure from chaos is equal parts armor, spikes and skulls approach. It looks like a throw back to the wild and varied chaos champions of the 4th edition. Several dozen hero models, all wildly different mutants.

corps
31-01-2013, 12:55
i too regret time when you couldn't mixed teznch with nurgle and slaneesh with khorne in a same army unless leds by a character of the chaos undivided or who has the favour of the four great. even then if i remenber well if you mixte lest s says tzeench and nurgle their units must have been separated by chaos undivided. it was very fluff but it s a ten yerars evolution that we can mixte more and more thing to the point that i feel the fluff deasaparing in the mind of player. who believe that slanesh and korne don't get well if the rueles allow you to do so.

outbreak
31-01-2013, 21:09
i too regret time when you couldn't mixed teznch with nurgle and slaneesh with khorne in a same army unless leds by a character of the chaos undivided or who has the favour of the four great. even then if i remenber well if you mixte lest s says tzeench and nurgle their units must have been separated by chaos undivided. it was very fluff but it s a ten yerars evolution that we can mixte more and more thing to the point that i feel the fluff deasaparing in the mind of player. who believe that slanesh and korne don't get well if the rueles allow you to do so.

Fluff needs to come back. The game lacks narrative and character these days

corps
31-01-2013, 21:21
oh yeah and with real author. currently they have the same savour that a child homework copied from wiki p. book should be xrite in team fluf by author, balance by mathematician, and a gamer to fix it all. now the chaos undivided seem almost non existent while in the time of the fluff i decribed it was a unifiying force. the great four are just that the great four. it means they are other elements that composed the undivided. i miss fluff so much

Urgat
01-02-2013, 06:26
Imho, most of the new sculpts suffer from the currently terrible way the heavy metal team paints. I suspect I'd like most of the models if I saw them painted normallly instead of these stark highlights and angles. With the exception of the forsakens. Plastic demonette syndrom, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same guy who sculpted them. I mean, they're so static they look apathic. So I forced myself to think that the fluff has changed, they're now slowly moving forward purposefully like on of these fat monsters out of resident evil and- sorry what? M6? You kidding me, you're going to tell me these models represent M6 troops? Those are faster than elves or skavens? And 10 at 50USD, right? Now you only need to look at the sprues to understand the price, honestly, if you take a lot of effort and accept the GW price average, it's not surprising they're more expensive, but all the same: 5 bucks per guy, and they don't portray the unit in the book at all. Add to that that their point cost is high, so teh units will be rather small... I'd rather convert some for my chaos warrior opponent than have him inflict the sight of those on me.
In my opinion the rest is cool, even the big red beast thing, it's the painting that sucks. I think the goal is for the minis to look like they come from a comics or something? The chariot is just awesome, I really don't like the two big horns but they're parts of their own so there's no reason not to do w/o them if one doesn't like them.

Misfratz
01-02-2013, 06:38
Yes - I felt that the Warriors/Daemons/Beasts of Chaos era was fantastic. The potential for producing themed armies was impressive, and I think the structure of Core from the Warriors book counting as Special in the other two books, etc, was one that worked in a nice simple way.

There are two points I would make, though.

You can always make your own rules for use between friends. And in a situation with strangers, if you don't ask, you don't get.

Current GW strategy is to direct nostalgia-sufferers, aka veterans, to Forge World, where you will find that the Tamurkhan book will indulge your nostalgia. And, at 45 for a 208 page book, it compares favourably with GW's current pricing on army books...

Marked_by_chaos
01-02-2013, 07:12
Current GW strategy is to direct nostalgia-sufferers, aka veterans, to Forge World, where you will find that the Tamurkhan book will indulge your nostalgia. And, at 45 for a 208 page book, it compares favourably with GW's current pricing on army books...

I cannot speak highly enough of tamurkhan. Alongside Horus Heresy: betrayal by FAR the best book released by gw for some time. Twice the page count of the new army book, larger pages, high quality paper, mock leather covers, great background on not only the realms of chaos but also other less well trodden parts of the warhammer world, campaign, complete army book for chaos dwarves contained within and plenty more besides. All for only 15 more.