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Stonewyrm
30-01-2013, 10:31
After reading another Deathstar thread, actually it was the ETC thread that turned into a Deathstar thread :) I remembered the old
video game Mark of Chaos that had a rule that you can only have 1 character per unit.
Im not suggesting it as a rules change just wondering what would happen if it was. Just a theoretical exersize.

Would this make sense in WFB?
Would it change the game to much?
Would it "solve" the Deathstar problem?
Would it make WFB more interesting or diverse?

blackseven
30-01-2013, 10:37
It makes sense, thematically, that different leaders/VIPs (because that's generally what characters are, yes even Wizards) would lead different units, except the BSB should be near the General.

I'm not sure it would make a big difference, but I don't really play. "Front rank all characters" type nonsense seems to pop-up more as a running joke on the forums. To use RPG terms, it's Theoretical Optimization rather than Practical Optimization. Then again, RPGs have much less tolerance for WAAC players.

Scammel
30-01-2013, 10:40
Ogres certainly take a hit. The Gutstar isn't so much about characters as it is about protecting the fragile Ironguts, who tend to give out wounds like free company pens.

Gromdal
30-01-2013, 10:51
It would not alone fix the deathstar problem (see my posts about fixing it easily) but is a nice idea with the exception of bsb+general.

theunwantedbeing
30-01-2013, 11:18
If it screws over deathstars, I can't see any real issue.

...Dark Elves and Skaven are less able to use Assassins (small price to pay)
...Mages get a bit more vulnerable (they don't fight much anyway)
...Bretonnians can't put a Damsel & and hero in the same unit (not huge but notable)
...erm

Not sure it makes a whole lot of sense fluffwise of course.

gutsmaka
30-01-2013, 11:24
tomb kings would get even more screwed, now we have to chose between hate and high weapon skill in tomb guard units

Wharfrat1979
30-01-2013, 11:35
Horrible idea. OnG characters are really cheap and I love to have multiples of them to make Ws 2 night goblin units actually capable of killing something. Plus I would have to have like 8 different units to protect all my characters and MSUs are not good for OnG

Urgat
30-01-2013, 11:54
Not sure it makes a whole lot of sense fluffwise of course.

Not sure it makes much sense to have them all in the same unit either, really. A unit is led by own captain, not three, and a boss is a boss because he's stronger, I don't see how two of them would accept shared command, fluff-wise. As a goblin player, I'd have no problem with such a restriction, provided some exceptions are given, like models that count as characters but are not, like nasty skewers, not prevent the inclusion of one actual character in the unit. Maybe also exceptions like wizards, because a wizard isn't a leader usually, he hides in units, he doesn't go there to make them more killy in melee and, quite frankly, that would just promote bunkering of said mages in the back in one unit that wouldn't move, and that would be meh (quite frankly, I'd rather we had viable ways of keeping mages alive w/o having to put them in units in the first place anyway). But 3 big bosses in the front of one unit? That makes no sense fluff-wise (unless you add special animosity rules because they'd bicker to decide who's the actual leader. Not that I really want more of that, really :p)

tmarichards
30-01-2013, 12:10
It would hurt some of the power armies and power builds (VC Knight Bus, Gutstar etc) but would also be a massive nerf to Brets, Beastmen and O&G, so I think the downsides outweigh the benefits.

N1AK
30-01-2013, 12:47
After reading another Deathstar thread, actually it was the ETC thread that turned into a Deathstar thread :) I remembered the old
video game Mark of Chaos that had a rule that you can only have 1 character per unit.


In the UK at tournaments it is common to amend the rules so that characters can get "look out sir" from spells that don't normally allow it. This has led to even more Deathstars. I've run tournaments where this additional LOS is restricted to one character to try and discourage that.

What I would suggest is that a unit can only give LOS to one character per turn. Additionally forcing characters to come forwards in combats (to stop chars hiding behind mus & standard) would help as well.

IcedCrow
30-01-2013, 12:52
I've toyed with this idea. Maybe make it so BSB can join a unit with the general if he chooses.

This would eliminate character busses and things like teclis from bunkering into a second rank where he can't be touched.

The negative is that armies like goblins are hurt because their characters are so cheap that they wouldn't be able to put all of their characters in units.

cptcosmic
30-01-2013, 13:05
so my BSB would not be able to fight alongside his lord? that would suck.

there is a reason we have spells like dwellers, to soften those character units up, it is just a shame that is also works well if you are not character heavy.

pippin_nl
30-01-2013, 13:08
Why would you wish to incorporate this rule? Would it not be easier to limit unit points (including characters)? Your idea would really hurt the weaker / cheaper armies. Chosenstar does not even need characters.

ColShaw
30-01-2013, 13:08
I think a compromise, perhaps: 2 characters per unit. That solves the BSB/General issue, and prevents the whole-rank-of-characters sillyness.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-01-2013, 13:12
Horrible idea. Empire is designed to use multiple characters and stack benefits. Completely goes against the idea of this when I cannot add a simple Witchhunter to my Captain's unit.

Two characters/unit sounds very very reasonable though.

Shimmergloom
30-01-2013, 13:17
I have another idea. Just require characters to be in the front rank to cast spells(damsel already has a special rule to allow her out of the 1st rank), use the bsb re-roll or inspiring presence(except for when any of them are making way of course) which is what the rules use to do. That eliminates teclis or bsb's hiding in the 2nd rank. And forces gutstars, etc to deploy more than 3 wide when they have command.

m1acca1551
30-01-2013, 13:31
I have another idea. Just require characters to be in the front rank to cast spells(damsel already has a special rule to allow her out of the 1st rank), use the bsb re-roll or inspiring presence(except for when any of them are making way of course) which is what the rules use to do. That eliminates teclis or bsb's hiding in the 2nd rank. And forces gutstars, etc to deploy more than 3 wide when they have command.

I like this! solves a lot of issues without nerfing certain armies to build power units like gobbo heroe units of stabby death.

I still would like to see a cap on how many heroes can join a unit, sometimes it can really take the micky when you are facing goblin hero after hero.

Wharfrat1979
30-01-2013, 13:58
What about adding a hero level class of elite fighter were their leadership is not allowed to be used by the unit. You could also restrict their points to magic weapons to like 25 or something. Of course these elite troops could be designed to fulfill different roles for different army's but they would not be on the same level as a hero. Or create a whole other class called unit support and put a percent restriction for the army on it. This way the rules can restrict units to one lord/hero and any number of unit support/specialist per unit

TheDungen
30-01-2013, 13:58
make exceptions to assassins and maybe damsels (just because of the fluff), and then one exception that says that if every unit that cna have a character already have one then you may add a second character to each unit. (kind of like the Pauli principle for number of fermions in a given quantum state). this way goblin armies have to spread their characters amongst their units but since they're so cheap they could easily add a second to some of the units.

Wharfrat1979
30-01-2013, 14:01
Fluff wise I see this working well because heroes can be seen going into combat with any number of retinue of elites. Power attracts power.

Ratarsed
30-01-2013, 14:23
After reading another Deathstar thread, actually it was the ETC thread that turned into a Deathstar thread :) I remembered the old
video game Mark of Chaos that had a rule that you can only have 1 character per unit.
Im not suggesting it as a rules change just wondering what would happen if it was. Just a theoretical exersize.

Would this make sense in WFB?
Would it change the game to much?
Would it "solve" the Deathstar problem?
Would it make WFB more interesting or diverse?
Yes, it makes sense. Every unit should have some sort of commander.

It would change the game, but how much can only be discovered by play testing.

I think it would solve the Death Star problem, assuming you have a problem. In my group Deathstars don't regularly make an appearance. Too boring.

Interesting and diverse is always going to be a personal opinion.

Blinder
30-01-2013, 15:00
I could see a "one of each" approach working (more "evenly distributed" but each Lord could have a Hero follower... it really seems to be when you can pile 3+ characters into one unit that things get silly) with a couple possible exceptions for things that have been mentioned, such as Prophetesses/Damsels (I'd go more with letting them count as "either" than "in addition to," though) and "not-quite character characters." I don't know that it would solve all *that* much, though, and could lead to a ton of headaches (what's the "cutoff" for when a unit is in the "must have a character" list, for example) especially once people figure out how to optimize under the new restrictions. So, probably better off left as a house rule rather than something to hope GW adds outright...

popisdead
30-01-2013, 18:35
A
Would this make sense in WFB?
Would it change the game to much?
Would it "solve" the Deathstar problem?
Would it make WFB more interesting or diverse?

The game isn't balanced enough for this to be considered. It makes little sense.

It would make certain armies weaker (Beastmen for starters) and the Lore of Death weaker.

There is no Deathstar problem to "solve". If you cannot learn to deal with them that's the bigger issue. They are currently only a problem on the internet.

It would make Fantasy less fun and less interesting and less diverse. Restrictions reduce diversity.

Kayosiv
30-01-2013, 19:01
I think a compromise, perhaps: 2 characters per unit. That solves the BSB/General issue, and prevents the whole-rank-of-characters sillyness.

This is more reasonable. There are lots of reasons to have multiple characetrs in a unit. General with BsB, wizard with Bodyguard, characters that perform different roles (such as prince + necrotect or Captain + warrior priest). Once you start adding more than 2 characters to a unit though, things can get out of hand with 3-5 characters making up entire front ranks and such silliness.

Voss
30-01-2013, 19:19
I think a compromise, perhaps: 2 characters per unit. That solves the BSB/General issue, and prevents the whole-rank-of-characters sillyness.
Yeah, I could get behind two. I'd hate to see necromancers without a pet wight/wraith bodyguard.

Ratarsed
30-01-2013, 20:34
Yeah, I could get behind two. I'd hate to see necromancers without a pet wight/wraith bodyguard.
I wouldn't!:evilgrin:

SteveW
30-01-2013, 22:43
Deathstar problem? There is no deathstar problem. The game out of the box gives many ways to take care of deathstars, try playing a few games with all the rules and then come back and tell us if you had any problems with deathstars(other than keeping your own alive).

theJ
31-01-2013, 13:47
If we're already changing the rules, why not change them even more? If we're adding a "only one character per unit" rule, then we can also add a counter-rule to it.
Let's call it the "not a leader" rule for now(yep, I suck at naming stuff). This rule is placed on assassins, engineers, wizards, and other "support" heroes, allowing them to not count for the purposes of the "only one character per unit" rule.
As for the BSB, s/he either gets this rule as well, or better yet, a special rule allowing him/her to be deployed in the same unit as the army general.

Any cases where this wouldn't work?

IcedCrow
31-01-2013, 14:58
The deathstar problem is that they are allowed to exist at all, not that they can't be dealt with.

snottlebocket
31-01-2013, 15:28
It would cripple armies with weak supporting characters while doing nothing to hold back armies with powerful individual characters.

SteveW
31-01-2013, 16:30
The deathstar problem is that they are allowed to exist at all, not that they can't be dealt with.

Until I came to these forums I never thought to give units like that any name other than easy targets. I guess it's all how you aproach things.

Lord Inquisitor
31-01-2013, 16:59
What if there were "classes" of heroes? Each hero would have a type. I don't know, something along line of of fighter, Mage and support characters. Certain characters might be more than one type.

You could prohibit more than one of each type joining a unit or something like that?

IcedCrow
31-01-2013, 19:14
Until I came to these forums I never thought to give units like that any name other than easy targets. I guess it's all how you aproach things.

As I posted previously, it does indeed depend on how you approach things. I play warhammer for the chance to play a game that is kind of like how I'd see a real battle would be fought, with units interacting with each other. When you use a mega blob / deathstar, you have one or two units and then they look to go slamming into whatever they can find, which defeats the reason why I play warhammer.

It's not that they can't be dealt with. It's that by their nature of existing that the game is wrecked (for me). That is the most common complaint I hear from the people who don't like them. There are people who complain that they can't beat deathstars / megablobs as well, but that's a different topic as one can be taught how to deal with them.

If it were a minority thing, where not many people complained about it, I would just resign to either accept that's what "warhammer" is all about (mega blobs slamming into each other) or find a new game to play that's not about mega blobs slamming into each other.

TheDungen
01-02-2013, 15:18
If you want to be able to have mages and heroes in the same units i sugest:

Rivalry:
A unit may only ever be joined by one character from a given unit type.

Should solve all these problems although it would also prevent multiple fanatics in the same unit and assassins. these may have to be excepted from the rules.

O&G can still do pretty well since they have loads of heroes options they can still fill most of the front rank of a unit whit lords and heroes, the just have to be all different.

Helps prevent the spamming of character entries that happen to be a little to good.

Lord Inquisitor
01-02-2013, 15:22
Doesn't really slow most deathstars down then. I typically run an ogre deathstar with a tyrant, a slaughtermaster, a bruiser BSB and maybe a butcher or firebelly too. I think most deathstars can get around it one way or another. Black knight bus might have a little issue but at least you can have a vampire, a vampire lord and a wight king for starters.

It'll cut out a few abuses but most armies can generate enough different flavours of hero to get around that.

Urgat
01-02-2013, 16:32
You're talking about deathstar and abuses after stating that you typically run a gutstar with up to 4 characters? :p If there's a lady or someone, anyone, sitting next to Lord Inquisitor while he reads this topic and you catch my post, could you please slap him for me because I don't have the reach and I really want to, right this moment? :evilgrin:

TheDungen
01-02-2013, 18:12
well many armies have 1 combat hero and 1 combat lord which limits them to two combat characters per unit. Some like o&g ogres and chaos have casters who are also combatants and they'll be able to death star better but not much i can do about it.

Lord Inquisitor
02-02-2013, 01:51
You're talking about deathstar and abuses after stating that you typically run a gutstar with up to 4 characters? :p If there's a lady or someone, anyone, sitting next to Lord Inquisitor while he reads this topic and you catch my post, could you please slap him for me because I don't have the reach and I really want to, right this moment? :evilgrin:

Do as I say not as I do... :p

Yes, I run deathstars. I think I mentioned earlier I sometimes run up to five ogre characters in one unit. A friend of mine has been running an O&G list with something like 18 characters in it at one point (which prompted the question - do attacks cap at 10 with the Sword of Anti-Heroes? Apparently they do...). It's fun enough but the game shouldn't really reward this sort of list.

I can dislike a particular mechanic and still abuse the hell out of it. I think challenges shouldn't be tactically abusable but that won't stop me issuing a tactical challenge...

Urgat
02-02-2013, 08:33
There's no point to challenges at all besides what they're abused for, it's totally different to stacking characters in one unit, because you can't really say that there's no point to not staking characters :p "I do it because I can" is the reason why we need all those restrictions in the first place.
Upon reading this topic and taking all the comments into account, I think the best way to go would be to divide characters in two groups, leaders and support characters. Leaders are all the plain combat characters, captain, big/warbosses, wraithes, etc etc and support would include BSB, wizards, or any outlandish character that should apply. A unit can only include one of each. Of course there's going to need exceptions here and there, a vampire lord is going to be a leader, not a support character.
The complaints about not being able to do anything without a wall of goblins or the like are totally unfounded, as a goblin player, I've gone through 6th and 7th edition with half the charaters I can now field, and I did ok enough, and they would have had an ever greater impact with strikes in I and w/o step up.

Jonaer
02-02-2013, 14:39
How about limiting characters based on points and numbers, much the same way as the units themselves are limited by many compositions? For example, if units are limited to 400 points and 60 models, characters could likewise be limited to 400 points and 3 models per unit. Obviously numbers could be tweaked but I'm sure you get the point. How do you recon such a system would work?

tmarichards
02-02-2013, 16:32
I think it would hurt weaker armies too much. For example, a viable Wood Elf strategy (and one of the handful of ways the army is made borderline playable) is the Moonstone, where you get all your characters and the big unit out of trouble, which is usually 274pts of Glade Guard, a 300+py Mage Lord a 235pt Highborn and a 130pt BSB. Any restriction would need to be done on an army by army basis.

DaemonReign
02-02-2013, 16:58
If I was a mod I would Close this thread.

8th Edition has an unprecedented elasticity and any/all suggestions that effectively ruin the Large Games fun I've been having lately makes me a sad panda.

Deathstars smells like an internet-thing I haven't seen one since the first Stars Wars Movies (and that worked out soo well too)..
I mean it's funny 'cause the folks who complain about them also complain about the most straightforward ways of dealing with them..
Remove the large units, remove the nuke-spells of the BRB Lores, reductionism left and right.. *sigh*

Like I said: I would Close this thread if I could. *haha*

TheDungen
03-02-2013, 02:46
i guess you didnt see the third star wars movie then?

IcedCrow
03-02-2013, 03:50
It's a trap!

Urgat
03-02-2013, 08:23
If I was a mod I would Close this thread.

And that's why you will never be a mod. Gotta love the irony of posting about liberty of choice and advocating censorship at the same time ;)

Lord Inquisitor
03-02-2013, 22:41
Indeed. This thread needs closing because... you don't agree? Nothing to see here, lock the thread, DR has pronounced judgement that anyone agreeing with the OP is simply wrong and that's the end of that. :p

As for deathstars being a myth, yesterday I played in a 3-game tournament. Game 1 facing a black knight bus with two blender vamps and a wight king, game 2 that goblin unit with 15 odd characters, game 3 a TK player with tomb guard with three characters in there. And of course I was using a knight horde with 4 characters in there. I don't always use or face deathstars but they're pretty common in competitive play.

There really should be a more organic mechanism for making loading up on characters less attractive. The issue is a simple one. Both sides have (at least in theory) equal forces and an equal chance to win. The basis of all tactics can be summed up in three words: concentration of force. If you can isolate and destroy part of the enemy army with overwhelming force, suffering minimal losses in the process and repeat the process with the rest of the enemy one piece at a time, you can win against even an outnumbering army. This applies both in real life warfare and on the tabletop.

If you have powerful models you can embed into a unit, then you have achieved concentration of force. A deathstar can blast through the enemy army taking on the enemy piecemeal. It's hard to think of a way to engineer a disadvantage to counter this basic concentration of force that isn't massively artificial without really changing the nature of WFB (making commanders no more powerful/tough than normal warriors for example).

Certain things could be done without outright banning putting more than on character in a unit.
Remove the stubborn crown and other easy access to Stubborn characters or upgrades. Likewise the number of stubborn units needs to be limited and some kind of disadvantage to adding characters to a Stubborn unit (e.g. they lose Stubborn if joined by a character that isn't also Stubborn!). Similarly adding one stubborn guy shouldn't make a whole unit Stubborn. Stubborn is a safety net for Deathstars. I'd be a whole lot more worried about all my eggs in one basket if losing combat/terrain/etc mattered more.
Some kind of innate disadvantage to adding characters together. One tournament rulespack I've seen reduces general/BSB ranges to 6" if they are joined by another character. I'm not thrilled by this solution as it seems heavy-handed and illogical but something more elegant along these lines could be done to discourage deathstars.
Not allow characters to make way and displace command. That'll throw a spanner in the works for ogre deathstars. Won't really help with the really massive hordestars though.
Remove the "model attacks model" granularity. If a unit attacks a unit, it'll mean it isn't possible to hide rank and file behind a wall of characters. It'll also help with other issues in the game like clipping or characters able to hide out and not get attacked much at the corner of a unit if a flat amount of attacks can be allocated.