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Exorcist
31-01-2013, 14:58
So, i started this thread because in the general discussion about how the Chaos Marine Codex sucks (i dont think so), it is a big whine fest why loyal marines have atsknf and Chaos Marines dont.

Well, since this is more about fluff then rules, heres my explenation:

So, what IS atsknf? As often stated in Books and stories, Marines know and can process fear. But their indoctrinations and training makes them able to surpress it/ignore it. This has alot to do with their oaths and honor. Represented in the game in a way, that they rather die fighting then run away seperatly to safe their own hides. Fluff wise this makes sense, Marines were subjected to Propaganda and psychic programming of a magnitude we cant understand. (Think Scientology times 1000) They really BELIEVE in that stuff. (look also... Fanatism) Marines are ultimatly trained to be martyrs if the situation demands it.

So, what happened to the Chaos Marines? First, they spat on their oaths and they became selfish, powerhungry... They have shaken off their psychic programming and the indoctrinations. They actually gave into their own desires, putting themselfes BEFORE others. Unlike Loyal Marines, they dont give a dam if the guy next to them dies if it safes their life. Every Traitor Marine is a super human egomaniac. Yes, they form Squads and Units, but they dont follow their leaders ou of duty, but because they want MORE... More power, More stuff... you get the idea.

So, this means, ruleswise, Loyal marines are better, yes. They dont get overrun, while traitors do that. So, for a CSM player, yes, loyal marines will stand their ground while your guys hope that the guy next to them gets cought while they get away.

Fluff wise, the CSM are more...Human... in a way. Where the Loyal Marines are still indoctrinated and dutybound to sacrifice themselves, the CSM just say "**** it, ill live to fight another day."

And while overrunning a unit in the game means it is destroyed gameswise, that doesnt mean every single one of them died. Maybe some, but in the end, some managed, in their selfish behavior, to get away to fight another day. While, to be honest, most Space Marine Units that use atsknf die miserably.

So yea, what im saying is, rules wise it sucks for the CSM Players (Wich doesnt mean the codex sucks, i happen to like it) but Fluff wise it makes sense... The CSM are driven by their own emotions and ultimatly their own agenda, while the Loyalist Marines are PROGRAMMED to do what they do. This could now go on into a free will debate, but... i rather not go there.

Hell's Angel
31-01-2013, 15:11
SUPPRESSIVE PERSON! :eek:

Scribe of Khorne
31-01-2013, 15:14
ATSKNF is, imo, psychological conditioning, chemical conditioning, repetitive training, and intense belief wrapped into one nice little package.

CSM dont have it, because they lose out on the strict regime of conditioning and training and the belief in themselves is not enough. Cults are fearless because they have really intense belief in their God.

RedMountainGod
31-01-2013, 15:20
spot on, great observation.

quantumcollider
31-01-2013, 15:31
Chaos Space Marine A: Where are you going!? You cannot outrun a Carnifex!
Chaos Space Marine B: No, but I only have to outrun you!

I completely agree. Some Chaos Space Marine players tend to forget that while Chaos boons may boost the power of a marine on a personal level, it also plays havoc on squad coherency. After all, can you really operate effectively as a unit if each of your 'comrades' is quite willing to stab you in the back (repeatedly) in his own quest for glory?

Exorcist
31-01-2013, 15:34
Wow, noone disagreeing so far... is this still the internet of planet earth? ;)

But anyway... if you want fearless badasses that never flee and dont give a damn if they die? World Eaters Army! (I really think about starting one^^) Or any Cult army for that matter.

Omegon
31-01-2013, 15:43
There is also the thing that the really intense psycho-conditioning didn't start to occur until after the forming of the Chapters (older fluff). Legions weren't as brainwashed as Chapter Marines because no one thought it was necessary. Then the Heresy happened. It explains why Heresy era marines don't have ATSKNF

Jericho
31-01-2013, 15:58
Wow, noone disagreeing so far... is this still the internet of planet earth? ;)

But anyway... if you want fearless badasses that never flee and dont give a damn if they die? World Eaters Army! (I really think about starting one^^) Or any Cult army for that matter.

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

Better?

:D

quantumcollider
31-01-2013, 16:06
ATSKNF is, imo, psychological conditioning, chemical conditioning, repetitive training, and intense belief wrapped into one nice little package.

CSM dont have it, because they lose out on the strict regime of conditioning and training and the belief in themselves is not enough. Cults are fearless because they have really intense belief in their God.

I do not think it is their belief that makes them fearless, but more that they are too enthralled by their passions (like rage and bloodlust for Berserkers or sensation and pleasure for Noise Marines) to think clearly. It's not that they are 'fearless', they just too preoccupied with those other emotions to care.

Scribe of Khorne
31-01-2013, 16:13
I do not think it is their belief that makes them fearless, but more that they are too enthralled by their passions (like rage and bloodlust for Berserkers or sensation and pleasure for Noise Marines) to think clearly. It's not that they are 'fearless', they just too preoccupied with those other emotions to care.

For a few this works, Zerkers and NM's for example, but how does that pass to Plague Marines? They arent in some state of delierium, the emotional portion of Nurgle doesnt really make them out of their minds.

I think while this could apply in some cases, its a bit limited in scope. I look at the Berzerker in Legion of the Damned. He was passionate, and had a connection to his god. It wasnt all about being crazy and screaming around like a loon. ;)

quantumcollider
31-01-2013, 16:25
For a few this works, Zerkers and NM's for example, but how does that pass to Plague Marines? They arent in some state of delierium, the emotional portion of Nurgle doesnt really make them out of their minds.
Well, they do have brains that are largely rotten away...;)

But I have always associated Nurgle with with emotions as morbidity, misery and despair. Which are itself powerful emotions that can significantly cloud one's judgement, as many teenagers can attest to.



I think while this could apply in some cases, its a bit limited in scope. I look at the Berzerker in Legion of the Damned. He was passionate, and had a connection to his god. It wasnt all about being crazy and screaming around like a loon. ;)

Sorry, never read that book. But I do not think any Berserker is crazy as a loon, otherwise he would have a lot of trouble getting his armour on. :p Nevertheless, I do think that when battle rages any concerns of safety are disregarded in favour of seeing the enemy's blood flow. When you are consumed by blood-lust, you do not retreat if the enemy is finally within your grasp.

Plague Lord
31-01-2013, 20:07
For a few this works, Zerkers and NM's for example, but how does that pass to Plague Marines? They arent in some state of delierium, the emotional portion of Nurgle doesnt really make them out of their minds.

I think while this could apply in some cases, its a bit limited in scope. I look at the Berzerker in Legion of the Damned. He was passionate, and had a connection to his god. It wasnt all about being crazy and screaming around like a loon. ;)

Plague marnies fear not death for they themselves have become death. They really believe they can't die and can endure 10xas much as a normal marine. I'm pretty sure they don't fear anything.

Stonerhino
31-01-2013, 20:31
Wow, noone disagreeing so far... is this still the internet of planet earth? ;)Well you came to fluff section with well put together fluff argument. That is actually supported by the fluff. Most of the time that is well recieved here.

daveNYC
31-01-2013, 20:50
I don't think the problem is exactly that SM get ATSKNF and CSM don't; it's that ATSKNF is awesome, and the CSM got exactly nothing that can prevent them from being run down post-combat by grots. LD 8, the auto-accept of challenges, and the fact that GW didn't give them some middle ground between ATSKNF and Brave Sir Robin territory all combined to create some serious USR envy.

theJ
31-01-2013, 21:04
There is also the thing that the really intense psycho-conditioning didn't start to occur until after the forming of the Chapters (older fluff). Legions weren't as brainwashed as Chapter Marines because no one thought it was necessary. Then the Heresy happened. It explains why Heresy era marines don't have ATSKNF

Well, that, and FW are apparently better rules-writers than GW main. It'd be SO nice if MOST armies would at least obey the basic rules of the game.
There, I said it. I'll be going back to my hidey-hole now.

KingDeath
31-01-2013, 22:20
Well, that, and FW are apparently better rules-writers than GW main. It'd be SO nice if MOST armies would at least obey the basic rules of the game.
There, I said it. I'll be going back to my hidey-hole now.

We can't have that. Next you want actualy competative xenos books or, carriongod beware, a well written codex.

MvS
31-01-2013, 23:08
I do not think it is their belief that makes them fearless, but more that they are too enthralled by their passions (like rage and bloodlust for Berserkers or sensation and pleasure for Noise Marines) to think clearly. It's not that they are 'fearless', they just too preoccupied with those other emotions to care.

I think it's more than likely to be an extreme cocktail of both. It's true that Cult Marines are not zealous or worshipful in the sense of formulaic rituals during organised religious services in temples (that's more a Word Bearer thing I suppose). They have instead subsumed their own motivations and thoughts for the desires and drives of their patron God. That said, they do consciously and deliberately offer everything they do to their God, and this is how the absolute zealotry of their belief and worship manifests.

There are probably some Traitor Marines who are very close to being Cult Marines but don't really care or know about the deity they're drifting more and more towards, but it's this lack of care and/or knowledge that prevents them from truly becoming a Cult Marines, with all tbe benefits and deficits that comes with that.

Killing everyone while giving in to feelings of absolute rage is excellent as far as Khorne is concerned. Good lad. Killing everyone while absolutely enraged but while choosing to behead all victims as a sort of in-battle ritual while screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE THRONE OF KHORNE!!" and, more importantly, really meaning it, is even better as far as Khorne is concerned. Absolutely awesome lad!

But anyway, back on topic, I agree with the consensus here. Chaos Marines lack the indoctrination and very specific and absolute sense of serving a greater collective purpose of 'modern' Loyalist Marines. The exception being Cult Marines or other fearless Traitor Marines who take things a step further by being so successful as warriors and so obssessive and mind/soul blasted that they are simply devoid of fear. Loyalist Space Marines are incredibly brave, meaning that they can still feel fear in some contexts but face it down and overcome it without hesitation. Fearless Chaos Marines are just too narcissistic/megalomanic/insane/Chaos saturated (etc) to even remember what fear feels like, which, of course, isn't the same as bravery at all.

m1acca1551
01-02-2013, 00:04
CSM are individual fighters who have banded together to fight out their existence, when you look at CSM what you see is a soldier who has his own end game in my mind, he see's a potential fate for himself far beyond that of what a codex astartes SM has.

Loyalist marines have a duty, to fight and die for the emperor so there is no real fear of death as you have essentially completed your duty. A CSM has no such sense of duty or loyalty apart from what he owes to himself, there is no honour in being killed in a glorious last stand, or for another's lost cause. They may also know true fear, as they have seen beyond the veil, they have seen what awaits them if they are to fall so they will try and stave of that eventuality for as long as possible or until they have found away to cheat there fate.

agurus1
01-02-2013, 06:49
Chaos Space Marine A: Where are you going!? You cannot outrun a Carnifex!
Chaos Space Marine B: No, but I only have to outrun you!

I completely agree. Some Chaos Space Marine players tend to forget that while Chaos boons may boost the power of a marine on a personal level, it also plays havoc on squad coherency. After all, can you really operate effectively as a unit if each of your 'comrades' is quite willing to stab you in the back (repeatedly) in his own quest for glory?


In Siege of Castellax the Iron Warriors there take a much more different view: the do have their own personal agendas but know that in order to win they must fight as a unit and leave the back stabbing for a later time when it won't impact the Warband. The still know honor, but it is only honor to the Legion, and their own personal honor. ALSO with the inclusion of Fear now as a USR, I don't get why C:SM and friends are immune to fear thanks to ATSKNF, but CSM who live alongside the denizens of the warp still suffer from fear fluff wise.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-02-2013, 06:58
While they don't live for the Emperor I wouldn't say they have nothing to die for.


Wow, noone disagreeing so far... is this still the internet of planet earth?

Well in the thread you referenced the arguments made by Chaos players weren't so much "look at that ATSKNF, it's soooooo nice, I gotta get me a piece of that." It's more along the lines of "Wow, that ATSKNF is nice... so why do my Chaos Marines flee and die like Guardsmen for only a couple points less?"

Now, there's only so many pegs down you could take the price of a power armored dude with all 4s, so I'm gonna say it: maybe basic Marines need a price hike.

Vaulkhar
02-02-2013, 14:41
It's also worth noting that while Loyalist MArines are presumably indoctrinated with some variation on 'The Emperor protects and, should you die valiantly in his service like a good Marine, your soul will go straight to his side for eternity/until a really good rumble comes along'.

Chaos Marines, of course, know the truth - that it's oblivion if they're lucky and an eternity as the plaything of uncaring and malicious deities if they're not. That presumably reinforces the survival instinct just a bit.

theJ
02-02-2013, 14:48
@Imperialis_Dominatus:
That or not handing out ATSKNF like candy of halloween.

In fact, I'd say basic marines need a slight rethinking period. Silly rules ain't the only problem they've got.
Look to the heresy list. Marvel at its simple yet beautiful and fun to play design. No weight where it is not needed, knows exactly what it wants to do and does it well.
Now look at basic codex marines - weighted down by unnecessary rules, confused about their role, used less as space badasses and more as bolt-magnets for special/heavy weapons, giving almost no room for customisation(admittably, the heresy list doesn't give that, either)... and paying premium for all of this crap.
Next time C:SM gets redone, I would like to see stripped down entries - let me choose not only my special weapons, but my basic gear and rules as well. Isn't the basic book supposed to be about creating your own chapter?
Give me a basic list of rules, from stubborn and stealth to scouts and furious charge, and give me the condition that every last marine in my army must choose the same, and call it a day. Let me choose if I want both special and heavy weapons on my tacs, or double heavy, or double special, or nothing but bolters and adjust the points to make all of them viable. Heck, even allow me to drop the bolters for good ol' CCW+pistols on my basic d00dz. Why must every chapter have the same terrible rules?

khirsath
02-02-2013, 15:05
I'd say if you spend 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror you'll get to know fear...

Whether or not you'll be sane enough to be afraid is another matter.

Istlod
02-02-2013, 15:49
While were on the subject of the afterlife for CSM, in Warhammer Fantasy, its said that, at least as far as tribes who follow Khorne are concerned, worshipers of Khorne are transformed into Bloodletters when they die in battle and enter Khorne's domain or just fight in his realm for all eternity. Does that also hold for 40K? I'd imagine that followers of Khorne in 40K would see the afterlife as a rather positive place as the willingness for self-sacrifice is shown in various fiction depicting them to be a positive quality, like in Wrath of Kharn.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the follower of Slaanesh in that same story also has no fear of death, as he is confident in that his soul is pledged to his god.

Bergen Beerbelly
02-02-2013, 16:49
Well, from what I remember reading about the Chaos Space Marines from way back in the Rogue Trader/2nd edition era, Chaos Space Marines were very much afraid of many different things because they didn't have the emperor to protect their souls like the loyalist Space Marines did.

The idea was that Chaos Space Marines lived in a constant state of fear. They realized that they had done wrong by the Emperor and were living in a state of constant fear of reprisal, as well as being afraid of what they witnessed in the Eye of Terror (hence, the name, Eye of Terror). Chaos Space Marines witness the four chaos powers playing games with their daemon forces all the time. They witness the senselss battles where the Chaos gods throw every daemon and mortal follower at each other constantly in a bid to see who will win the battle...all for the lolz....and the sheer crazyness of it all is enough to make anyone be afraid.

Being afraid all of the time is what makes Chaos Space Marines what they are. Cowardly traitors that have no love for anyone, not even themselves.

Istlod
02-02-2013, 16:52
Well, from what I remember reading about the Chaos Space Marines from way back in the Rogue Trader/2nd edition era, Chaos Space Marines were very much afraid of many different things because they didn't have the emperor to protect their souls like the loyalist Space Marines did.

The idea was that Chaos Space Marines lived in a constant state of fear. They realized that they had done wrong by the Emperor and were living in a state of constant fear of reprisal, as well as being afraid of what they witnessed in the Eye of Terror (hence, the name, Eye of Terror). Chaos Space Marines witness the four chaos powers playing games with their daemon forces all the time. They witness the senselss battles where the Chaos gods throw every daemon and mortal follower at each other constantly in a bid to see who will win the battle...all for the lolz....and the sheer crazyness of it all is enough to make anyone be afraid.

Being afraid all of the time is what makes Chaos Space Marines what they are. Cowardly traitors that have no love for anyone, not even themselves.

Thank God Rogue Trader isn't canon anymore. Cowards my ****, you seen those Berzekers?

Bergen Beerbelly
02-02-2013, 17:03
Being clinically insane does not mean you are not a coward. They are cowards. You think Khorne Berzerkers aren't afraid? They are. They are afraid they will get killed before they get to kill something for Khorne. They are afraid of getting hurt so badly that they spend the rest of their days as an invalid, not able to kill and maim in Khornes name. They fear what will happen to them if the Emperor ever gets ahold of their soul. They're probably even afriad they might like the look of Daemonettes of Slaanesh a little too much :eek:

Veteran Sergeant
02-02-2013, 17:42
You can really boil it down to a single concept: Purpose.

Space Marines have a purpose. They aren't individuals, they are a team. They are defenders of a grander idea. An idea that is legitimately and mortally threatened with extinction.

Traitor Marines don't have that purpose to unite them, nor to drive them. While they might serve Chaos Gods, ultimately the Ruinous Powers are an abstraction. Blood for the Blood God isn't a concept, it's a catchphrase. If they lose and run away, they can still get some more blood for the Blood God tomorrow.

If a Space Marine falters, he believes that the Imperium could be destroyed and he has failed.

Istlod
02-02-2013, 18:00
Being clinically insane does not mean you are not a coward. They are cowards. You think Khorne Berzerkers aren't afraid? They are. They are afraid they will get killed before they get to kill something for Khorne. They are afraid of getting hurt so badly that they spend the rest of their days as an invalid, not able to kill and maim in Khornes name

These exact fears could be argued to exist in SPESS MEHREENS also. And could also be argued to also exist in other aligned Chaos Marines; for instance, an Undivided warrior fears dying before he sends ten thousand loyalist dogs to the Warp.


They fear what will happen to them if the Emperor ever gets ahold of their soul.

The Emperor's worthless and dead and licks the dung from Tzeentch's back feathers.


They're probably even afriad they might like the look of Daemonettes of Slaanesh a little too much :eek:

Heh.

Chapters Unwritten
02-02-2013, 18:26
Well, from what I remember reading about the Chaos Space Marines from way back in the Rogue Trader/2nd edition era, Chaos Space Marines were very much afraid of many different things because they didn't have the emperor to protect their souls like the loyalist Space Marines did.

The idea was that Chaos Space Marines lived in a constant state of fear. They realized that they had done wrong by the Emperor and were living in a state of constant fear of reprisal, as well as being afraid of what they witnessed in the Eye of Terror (hence, the name, Eye of Terror). Chaos Space Marines witness the four chaos powers playing games with their daemon forces all the time. They witness the senselss battles where the Chaos gods throw every daemon and mortal follower at each other constantly in a bid to see who will win the battle...all for the lolz....and the sheer crazyness of it all is enough to make anyone be afraid.

Being afraid all of the time is what makes Chaos Space Marines what they are. Cowardly traitors that have no love for anyone, not even themselves.

I don't buy any of this thread and this is why: you lot are spending a lot of time talking about how petrified CSM are of death, but don't have any inkling of explanation why they are not at all more proficient or concerned with staying alive.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

samzor
02-02-2013, 18:27
I concur with Exorcist. I remember reading in mid 90's either in the 2nd edition rulebook WD or something about how ATSKNF is particular to SM and this is a good thing.

Chaos were always vying for favour with the chaos gods and were not disciplined in the same way SM were.

The old psychology rules used to give CSM boosts in other areas eg: frenzy, hatred, fear and terror. This is transferred to the special rules we see in this edition.

IMO this has worked well to differentiate both CSM and SM over the years.

Bergen Beerbelly
02-02-2013, 18:50
I don't buy any of this thread and this is why: you lot are spending a lot of time talking about how petrified CSM are of death, but don't have any inkling of explanation why they are not at all more proficient or concerned with staying alive.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Well, the reason I didn't bother talking about why they are not at all more proficient or concerned with staying alive is because I personally see it as obvious, therefore, it doesn't need to be explained by me. But since you have proven me wrong about the obviousness of it I guess I will have to tell you.

First, about why they are not more proficient...I'm going to make some assumptions here...By proficient I assume you mean better at fighting than other armies? say, maybe because they have been alive for 10,000 years and therefore should have 10,000 years of experience as compared to the regular Space Marines?

Ok, going off of that assumption, here is a real fluff reason why they are not better.

Because time flows differently in the Eye of Terror than it does in realspace. Official fluff does have Chaos Space Marines from the Horus Heresy as arriving fresh from the Heresy into the Eye of Terror, even though the Heresy happened 10,000 years ago. This means they are not better at fighting because they haven't had the 10,000 years worth of fighting you think they should. Why? because time flows differently.

Now. About why they are so concerned about staying alive. Official GW fluff also has Chaos Space Marines trying to stay alive as much as they possibly can but worrying about it less because death of the body is not necessarily permanent for a Chaos worshiper. This being the case, the only death they are concerned with is the one that can happen to their soul. Not their body.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-02-2013, 23:05
@Imperialis_Dominatus:
That or not handing out ATSKNF like candy of halloween.

I disagree in that ATSKNF is definitely something loyalists should have. It's their trademark. But as an ability it's wholly undercosted and perhaps a bit too wide in scope, and combined with Combat Tactics it's entirely cake in mouth and hand.


Isn't the basic book supposed to be about creating your own chapter?

Technically it's a book about making a Chapter who follows the Codex Astartes. But I agree in principle that you should be allowed to customize your army a bit more. Much in the way of Chapter Tactics, which with the advent of Azrael in Dark Angels we shall probably see as a table of Warlord Traits in Codex: Space Marines from which loyalists can pick and choose a trait to represent their force with no penalty or risk whatsoever.

One of these choices will inevitably be supremely more capable than others (because GW can't into balance) and then we shall see a new wave of Iron Hands players and counts-as Iron Hands players and people who have been playing Iron Hands since their Index Astartes (but mysteriously had to buy a new Space Marine army recently).


While were on the subject of the afterlife for CSM, in Warhammer Fantasy, its said that, at least as far as tribes who follow Khorne are concerned, worshipers of Khorne are transformed into Bloodletters when they die in battle and enter Khorne's domain or just fight in his realm for all eternity. Does that also hold for 40K? I'd imagine that followers of Khorne in 40K would see the afterlife as a rather positive place as the willingness for self-sacrifice is shown in various fiction depicting them to be a positive quality, like in Wrath of Kharn.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the follower of Slaanesh in that same story also has no fear of death, as he is confident in that his soul is pledged to his god.

That's why the Cult, or even Marked, units have generally been Fearless. They are pledged wholly to their God, and care not for their own lives, but only for the advancement of His (or other adverbs in Slaanesh's case) cause.


Traitor Marines don't have that purpose to unite them, nor to drive them.

I'll take "Death to the False Emperor!" for 40,000 credits, Al'Rahem.


an Undivided warrior

Ah, but remember, there are no Undivided warriors anymore, our new Codex has shown us the truth!

MvS
02-02-2013, 23:10
I think 'Undivided' in today's parlance should probably be 'Unaligned'.

Istlod
03-02-2013, 01:25
Well, the reason I didn't bother talking about why they are not at all more proficient or concerned with staying alive is because I personally see it as obvious, therefore, it doesn't need to be explained by me. But since you have proven me wrong about the obviousness of it I guess I will have to tell you.

First, about why they are not more proficient...I'm going to make some assumptions here...By proficient I assume you mean better at fighting than other armies? say, maybe because they have been alive for 10,000 years and therefore should have 10,000 years of experience as compared to the regular Space Marines?

Ok, going off of that assumption, here is a real fluff reason why they are not better.

Because time flows differently in the Eye of Terror than it does in realspace. Official fluff does have Chaos Space Marines from the Horus Heresy as arriving fresh from the Heresy into the Eye of Terror, even though the Heresy happened 10,000 years ago. This means they are not better at fighting because they haven't had the 10,000 years worth of fighting you think they should. Why? because time flows differently.

Now. About why they are so concerned about staying alive. Official GW fluff also has Chaos Space Marines trying to stay alive as much as they possibly can but worrying about it less because death of the body is not necessarily permanent for a Chaos worshiper. This being the case, the only death they are concerned with is the one that can happen to their soul. Not their body.

Uhm, yes they are better individual fighters than loyalists. Every Chaos Space Marine unit has an extra attack over its loyalist counterpart in the Tabletop.

Bergen Beerbelly
03-02-2013, 03:26
One extra attack doesn't necessarily mean they are better. Marines have ATSKNF, and Ultras have Combat Tactics. Basically looked at in the totality of things, I think Space Marines are better overall than Chaos Space Marines.

Lord Squidar
03-02-2013, 03:52
Could it also be due to the training each type gets? For eg. a psychopath juve hiver is taken by a marine chapter, tested to see if he is compatible, given tests that probably will kill him, and if he survives has his mind broken and rebuilt.

Same guy taken by renegade chaos marines: hey youngster, you like killing stuff. come join us and see the greater glory of freedom from the oppresive corpse emperor. Have this stolen geneseed and looted armour, point the front end of the bolter that way and go for it. Training, hahaha, those who survive are worthy.

Obviously does not apply to cult troops and marines turned after becoming battle brothers

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-02-2013, 03:55
Chaos Space Marines don't have that second attack by default anymore. No integral close combat weapon.

Veteran Sergeant
03-02-2013, 06:54
I'll take "Death to the False Emperor!" for 40,000 credits, Al'Rahem.
A nebulous goal with no clear path laid out for how to accomplish it, and no real connection to a tangible benefit for the individual Traitor Marine.

Not a unifying purpose. Just a shared sentiment of sorts.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-02-2013, 11:34
Actually it seems easier to try and make a plan for that death than to prevent it. Point A: Eye, Point B: Terra, goal: Kill Corpse God. As opposed to Point A: Terra, Point B: Errywhere Else, goal: Defend Mankind.

Hellebore
03-02-2013, 11:58
The issue isn't the concept, it's the result of the interpretation of the concept as a rule and how that makes a unit behave. Chaos marines run away and get cut down as they do so, units with ATSKNF do not. Yet chaos marines will not foolishly stand their ground and die just cuz. But they won't run away in rout either. That's the problem.

A chaos marine on the table top runs away with exactly the same effect as a guardsman fleeing from battle. A space marine is still a space marine, they are excellently trained. A chaos marine is simply far more aware of protecting his life than dying in the name of a forgotten cause. But due to the sweeping advance mechanics, they will turn tail and get shot down, which is at odds with their training and survival instinct.

Being an indoctrincated imperial drone doesn't somehow mean you magically avoid being cut down as you retreat. A chaos marine no more uncontrollably flees showing his back to the enemy than an imperial marine does. They are too well trained for that. It's not got anything to do with blind obedience to the emperor or whatever, it's the training that turning your back on the foe gets you killed.

A chaos marine looking out for himself in a unit with others of the same persuasion all trained like space marines, is not going to willingly show his back to the foe so they can shoot him in it.

It's not the rule or what it represents that's important, it's the results of having or not having the mechanical affects that is. A chaos marine should not be run down and shot in the back simply because he's no longer blindly loyal to an ideology. That's not what stops you getting shot, extensive training does that. Marines fall back in controlled fashion avoiding such dangers. this doesn't change just because you're no longer an imperial.

Hellebore

MvS
03-02-2013, 14:02
Excellent point there Hellebore.

theJ
03-02-2013, 21:11
I disagree in that ATSKNF is definitely something loyalists should have. It's their trademark. But as an ability it's wholly undercosted and perhaps a bit too wide in scope, and combined with Combat Tactics it's entirely cake in mouth and hand.
Partially, I agree. It IS iconic, and it IS overblown, but I still think it's handed out too easily. Think beyond the basic C:SM and think of the Space Wolves, think of the Black Templars and think of the Grey Knights. Neither of these operate as "standard marines", and although I don't have said books at hand, I'm fairly sure they're all handed ATSKNF without a second thought. ATSKNF is, supposedly, supposed to represent strict adherence to tactical doctrine in any and all situations - in which situation does this apply to a Black Templar? Space Wolves take pride in not having their minds scrubbed the way most other chapters do, and yet they still count as scrubbed for the purpose of rules? Grey Knights I am unsure about, but I still view them as closer to 'Fearless' than to 'ATSKNF'.
Ultramarines fit(in theory), assuming they tone the rule down(a lot). Blood Angels and Dark Angels I'll pass, but why is it used beyond those?



Technically it's a book about making a Chapter who follows the Codex Astartes. But I agree in principle that you should be allowed to customize your army a bit more. Much in the way of Chapter Tactics, which with the advent of Azrael in Dark Angels we shall probably see as a table of Warlord Traits in Codex: Space Marines from which loyalists can pick and choose a trait to represent their force with no penalty or risk whatsoever.
That'd work. In fact, "picking and choosing" is how I'd picture traits always working. Alas, this isn't how they've worked thus far, and I somehow doubt GW are going to change their tune just yet. More likely, we'll end up with either an Ultramarine trait list, or be forced to roll to see which chapter we'll "count as" this game... unless we pick a special character, obviously(yay...)

Hellebore
03-02-2013, 21:32
Excellent point there Hellebore.

So the difference to me is more that imperials will stand their ground and fight to the death whilst chaos marines will retreat. So mechanically this would be represented by having the chaos marines actually fall back X inches and then if the sweeping advance was successful, they get reingaged in combat where they fell back to. The loyalist marines stay where they were. Same mechanical effect in that neither unit is run down and shot, but one unit stands its ground and takes the hits whilst the other one retreats and takes the hits.

Hellebore

Veteran Sergeant
03-02-2013, 22:07
Actually it seems easier to try and make a plan for that death than to prevent it. Point A: Eye, Point B: Terra, goal: Kill Corpse God. As opposed to Point A: Terra, Point B: Errywhere Else, goal: Defend Mankind.You're confused. That ignores the fact that despite the nature of Chaos, the Imperium is still significanty more powerful, evidenced by the fact that it continues to win all the Black Crusades and to conquer Imperial planets, Chaos has to resort to insurrection and sneaky dickbaggery.

So it isn't that the Chaos Marines have to make a plan. They know what they have to do. The problem is, they have no realistic way of accomplishing it. The Chaos powers are fractious, and only rarely find a truly common goal. Thus, killing the Emprah is a shared sentiment. However, the cause of the Chaos gods isn't united. So yeah, the Chaos Marines all want to destroy the Imperium. But they all have different ideas on how to do it, and different ideas for what that even means. They serve multiple gods with multiple agendas, and even among the followers of those Gods, they have multiple leaders, and spend a fair amount of time fighting each other. The entire World Eaters Legion remnants turned on each other at some point and fractured into small warbands. And these are the guys you think have some common, united goal that would compared to the sense of purpose and mission of the loyalist Space Marines that is hammered into them every day from childhood? If only there was a better laughing emoticon on this forum.


A chaos marine on the table top runs away with exactly the same effect as a guardsman fleeing from battle. A space marine is still a space marine, they are excellently trained.
This is true. Unfortunately, Chaos Marines are not Space Marines. They share an origin, but their training and creation are nothing alike. Chaos Marines are very clearly depicted in the fluff as not being as dedicated and disciplined as their loyalist counterparts. And since the game has been consistent since 2nd Edition, it is obvious that just being called "Marine" isn't what makes you steadfast and resolute in combat, despite the odds.

So no, Chaos Marines just eventually break and retreat like everyone else, because they haven't been indoctrinated as extensively as loyalist Marines. They might have comparable combat skills, but they don't have the same discipline and resolve, and don't have the same level of commitment to the cause, and the same lack of regard for the self.

Basically, a Chaos Marine is an individual in a group of like minded mutated super warriors. A Space Marine is a cog in a greater machine that contemplates only duty and warfare. They aren't the same thing.

At all.

Some of you are incredibly confused about what ATSKNF means. It's not just about training. It's about belief. It's about indoctrination. It's about a wide array of things. So while a Space Wolf might be more savage and less disciplined than, say, an Ultramarine, he still shares that Ultramarine's dedication to the Imperium and humanity, and to his fellow Space Marines.

What you guys also confuse is what being broken actually means. It means that training has been overcome, and they are retreating, with no morale or conscious orders and organization. A Chaos Marine doesn't retreat like a Guardsman. He has a leadership of 9 (some 10). Not many Guardsmen with that kind of Leadership score. The Chaos warrior is far more resolute and better trained than a Guardsman. But, when that fails, he breaks, because he doesn't have that same strength of purpose that allows the Space Marine to recover quicker and fight on.

Hellebore
03-02-2013, 22:57
This is true. Unfortunately, Chaos Marines are not Space Marines. They share an origin, but their training and creation are nothing alike. Chaos Marines are very clearly depicted in the fluff as not being as dedicated and disciplined as their loyalist counterparts. And since the game has been consistent since 2nd Edition, it is obvious that just being called "Marine" isn't what makes you steadfast and resolute in combat, despite the odds.

Marines didn't have And they Shall Know No Fear in 2nd ed.



So no, Chaos Marines just eventually break and retreat like everyone else, because they haven't been indoctrinated as extensively as loyalist Marines. They might have comparable combat skills, but they don't have the same discipline and resolve, and don't have the same level of commitment to the cause, and the same lack of regard for the self.


And I'm saying that indoctrination has nothing to do with whether you turn your back on the enemy and flee, military training does that. Indoctrination simply makes you stand your ground in the face of death. Your argument relies on a false dichotomy, that there is only two options - either indoctrination means you stand your ground and don't die, or lack of indoctrination means you don't. That is simply not true. There are more than two possible outcomes and indoctrination has little to do with whether someone turns their back to the enemy.

A well trained force knows that you fall back in a controlled fashion. Space marines do this. Chaos space marines do this. Indoctrination ≠ discipline and training.




Basically, a Chaos Marine is an individual in a group of like minded mutated super warriors. A Space Marine is a cog in a greater machine that contemplates only duty and warfare. They aren't the same thing.

At all.

Some of you are incredibly confused about what ATSKNF means. It's not just about training. It's about belief. It's about indoctrination. It's about a wide array of things. So while a Space Wolf might be more savage and less disciplined than, say, an Ultramarine, he still shares that Ultramarine's dedication to the Imperium and humanity, and to his fellow Space Marines.

What you guys also confuse is what being broken actually means. It means that training has been overcome, and they are retreating, with no morale or conscious orders and organization. A Chaos Marine doesn't retreat like a Guardsman. He has a leadership of 9 (some 10). Not many Guardsmen with that kind of Leadership score. The Chaos warrior is far more resolute and better trained than a Guardsman. But, when that fails, he breaks, because he doesn't have that same strength of purpose that allows the Space Marine to recover quicker and fight on.

You are confusing the philosophical concept of 'and they shall know no fear' with the mechanical aspects and conflating ideological belief with military training. They are separate things and you CAN do one with out the other.

EDIT: The mechanics of ATSKNF represent a force that falls back in a controlled manner so they don't get over-run. The background ascribes this to their indoctrination. It is fact that you don't need to be indoctrinated into an ideology to fall back in this manner, militaries all around the world prove this to be the case. Just because it CAN be used to justify something, doesn't mean it's the ONLY WAY to justify it.

ATSKNF has changed since it was introduced in 3rd ed anyway, it has not remained the same. The abstract rules mechanics used to represent it now are no more a 'true' reflection of the background than they were in 3rd ed. Nor in 2nd ed when marines only had the 'shaken' rule rather than the current one.

The reason chaos space marines should have the MECHANICAL benefits of at least SOME part of ATSKNF isn't because they are indoctrinated, it's because they are just as well trained as imperial marines and in most cases have fought for longer than their imperial counterparts. They KNOW that turning your back on the enemy is death. The FW army lists for the legions shows that they all had this rule in the 31st millennium.

The mechanics and the justification are two completely separate issues. You can justify the mechanics of many things for many different reasons, they are not tied to a piece of background in any objectively definable manner. Something as simple as WS4 is the same - just because an ork has WS4 and a marine has WS4 doesn't mean they have identical fighting skills or styles, but for the purposes of game mechanics they use the same rule. Similarly, a tyranids rending claws don't work the same as a harlequin's kiss, but they both use the same MECHANIC to represent what they do.


Hellebore

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-02-2013, 04:20
You're confused.

Uh huh.


That ignores the fact that despite the nature of Chaos, the Imperium is still significanty more powerful

And significantly more assailed in all directions by all forces by a greater proportion than its strength advantage over Chaos. Otherwise, the 'Time of Ending' would be a farce.


evidenced by the fact that it continues to win all the Black Crusades and to conquer Imperial planets

Abaddon has achieved all his objectives. Back to the abyss with this caricature of the Warmaster as an armless failure! Furthermore, the Imperium has experienced times of waxing and waning, and is most assuredly in one of the latter in the 41st Millennium.


Chaos has to resort to insurrection and sneaky dickbaggery.

Chaos is the insurrection, they don't resort to it. Chaos is not mere mortal might. It is the temptation into Faustian bargains and slippery daemonic slopes, the whispering of selfish and volatile voices in the minds of men, the forbidden power beckoning to the downtrodden, the hamstrung, and the weak who would overthrow their oh-so-just masters. Do not confuse physical strength for true power.


So it isn't that the Chaos Marines have to make a plan. They know what they have to do. The problem is, they have no realistic way of accomplishing it. The Chaos powers are fractious, and only rarely find a truly common goal.

And when a powerful Champion pulls together a warband, enforces discipline, oversees their training, and either takes over the other aspects of command or delegates them to his own lieutenants, the result is...? Clearly nothing of a united purpose.

EDIT: You know, though, you seem pointedly unwilling to acknowledge the false dichotomy Hellebore pointed out, and your abrasive tone and use of Internet meme foolishness hardly warm me to debating with you further. Respond to this post if you wish, but have your 'victory.' I shall not be discussing matters with you again.

Veteran Sergeant
04-02-2013, 04:27
Marines didn't have And they Shall Know No Fear in 2nd ed.O rly?

Shall I take a picture of the page for you? Pg. 48, 2nd Edition rulebook. It wasn't called ATSKNF at that point, but it was effectively the same rule that eventually was renamed ATSKNF.

Please. Please. Please, pretend that it wasn't. Seriously. It will be worth the lulz.



And I'm saying that indoctrination has nothing to do with whether you turn your back on the enemy and flee, military training does that.I'm sure this is from your extensive military experience, in combat, no doubt.


Your argument relies on a false dichotomy, that there is only two options - either indoctrination means you stand your ground and don't die, or lack of indoctrination means you don't. No. It doesn't. You don't seem to understand what I am arguing.


That is simply not true. There are more than two possible outcomes and indoctrination has little to do with whether someone turns their back to the enemy. This is true. A lot of features have to do with what might make you turn your back on an enemy and run.

Sadly, it has nothing to do with this discussion, and doesn't support an argument in favor of Chaos Marines being able to take advantage of ATSKNF.





ATSKNF has changed since it was introduced in 3rd ed anyway, it has not remained the same. The abstract rules mechanics used to represent it now are no more a 'true' reflection of the background than they were in 3rd ed. Nor in 2nd ed when marines only had the 'shaken' rule rather than the current one Nevermind. We didn't have to wait. Hold one second.


LOLOLOLOL.


Okay, I'm done. Let's continue.


The reason chaos space marines should have the MECHANICAL benefits of at least SOME part of ATSKNF isn't because they are indoctrinated, it's because they are just as well trained as imperial marines and in most cases have fought for longer than their imperial counterparts. They KNOW that turning your back on the enemy is death. The FW army lists for the legions shows that they all had this rule in the 31st millennium. Leadership 9/10. Less likely to break than Space Marines by default. There you go. However, no reason to regroup [i]after they have already broken.



I'll try to break this down into a real world analogy that you might be able to understand.

Battle of Iwo Jima. 22,000 Japanese defended the island. Only slightly more than 200 were captured alive.
Battle of the Rhineland. Estimated 280,000 German soldiers taken prisoner.

Now, you'd be hard pressed to make an intelligent, reasonable argument that the Japanese soldiers were 1,000 times better trained than the Germans. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'd have to add at least thirty seven LOLs to that chain if you tried.

However, something about the difference in mentality and culture of the Japanese military that made 22,000 men fight to the death for a rock in the middle of the ocean against unbeatable odds.

Not convinced? Peleliu: nearly 11,000 Japanese soldiers, 200 captured. Guadalcanal. 31,000 dead, approximately 1,000 captured. Tarawa. 3,000 killed. 16 captured.

Battle of the Scheldt? (one guess, but it's not in the Pacific Ocean, lol). Estimate 11,000 or so killed, 41,000 captured. Battle of Aachen. 5000 killed or wounded, 5600 captured. Battle of the Bulge. 15,000 killed, 27,000 captured/missing.


I mean, obviously, the Japanese military was like so ridiculously more disciplined and well trained than the Germans, since those cowardly Germans were surrendering at an astronomical rate, and the Japanese were willing to fight to the death time and time again. It had absolutely nothing to do with self perception and cultural indoctrination. The Japanese are just so ridiculously better trained than the Waffen SS, thousands of whom surrendered at various points on the Western front of WW2. The Japanese regulars were just so much better trained than Germany's elite shock troopers.

I'm sure that's it.

MvS
04-02-2013, 09:00
Veteran Sergeant, everyone's opinion is welcome on Warseer (providing it doesn't contravene the rule of the forum is some profound way), which means that what you have to say is also welcome.

That said, and I'm saying this as a neutral party with no axe to grind, you really have to watch how you're expressing your opinions here. You don't have to agree with Hellebore or anyone else. You can draw on evidence in an attempt to shoot down his assertions and you can question everything he (or anyone else) has to say, but your tone has stepped into the realm of rudeness. There is absolutely no need for condescension, ad hominem attacks, "LOLOLOLOL", or trying to goad someone for the "lulz".

That sort of thing doesn't signify intelligent conversation and never 'wins' debates. It just turns people away from wanting to engage with you at all - which on an internet chat forum where we're all here to do just that, chat, is a shame.

KharnTheBetrayer01
04-02-2013, 10:19
Why don't Chaos get ATSKNF? The same reason the likes of the Dark Eldar don't. Being able to comprehend evil, and torture, and death as fully as those factions do does not make you less likely to fear it. It makes you more likely, you know exactly what awaits you, and how it feels.

Chaos Space Marines are always shown to be a little more self serving than the emperors lapdogs. More likely to leave an ally to die if it'll further their causes, more likely to execute a squadmate rather than try to get them back to a safe zone to await extraction. Chaos fights for itself, and so the excessive chance of personal harm is more likely to make them flee. That their morale is as high as it is could likely be equated more to arrogance than bravery of any kind. And while yes, there are exceptions (Cult troops for the most part), they're not so much brave as they are generally too insane to worry about self preservation.

Space Marines fight for each other. They know that while one of their brother marines still draws breath, there will always be a chance to rally through, will always be someone willing to fight by their sides. Add that level of teamwork and brotherhood to the ludicrous amounts of armour, genetic engineering and training, and you can understand why little to nothing can make them afraid.

Hellebore
04-02-2013, 11:04
O rly?

Shall I take a picture of the page for you? Pg. 48, 2nd Edition rulebook. It wasn't called ATSKNF at that point, but it was effectively the same rule that eventually was renamed ATSKNF.

Please. Please. Please, pretend that it wasn't. Seriously. It will be worth the lulz.


Yes, I was being serious. You can even see the part of my post that mentions the Shaken rule in it, which you've ignored. I know very well that 2nd ed space marines had a rule called shaken. However as you were basing your argument on the indoctrination of space marines I was pointing out that they didn't have [I]ATSKNF, they had shaken which is described differently to the modern rule and importantly worked mechanically differently. The rule did not stem from indoctrination, but strangely, from their TRAINING:



Space marines are quite aware of their own worth and will not throw away their lives in displays of futile bravado.

Now, not only was this not about their indoctrination, the mechanims it used was different. So they didn't use the same rules either, which was the point. They became Shaken, which meant they could not advance towards the enemy, which meant if they couldn't move without coming closer to the enemy they couldn't move at all.

Shaken marines could not follow up (sweeping advance) in combat against new opponents. They could still function normally other than those restrictions. HOWEVER, the most important aspect of Shaken, which you've blithely ignored in an attempt to ridicule me is that it A) wasn't automatically recovered from and B) could be broken PROPERLY if they failed a second test whilst Shaken.

ATSKNF is totally different from that. Marines in 2nd ed simply had to fail two Morale tests to flee, in 3rd ed onwards they never permanently break at all.




I'm sure this is from your extensive military experience, in combat, no doubt.


Irrelevant ad hominem is irrelevant.



This is true. A lot of features have to do with what might make you turn your back on an enemy and run.


And space marines turned and ran during 2nd ed just like a guardsman, they simply had to fail two morale tests to do that.




Sadly, it has nothing to do with this discussion, and doesn't support an argument in favor of Chaos Marines being able to take advantage of ATSKNF.


We are discussing whether the chaos space marines should get the mechanics found in ATSKNF and you seem to be unable to decouple those mechanics from the fluff description of why they get them.



Nevermind. We didn't have to wait. Hold one second.


LOLOLOLOL.


Okay, I'm done. Let's continue.

:rolleyes:



Leadership 9/10. Less likely to break than Space Marines by default. There you go. However, no reason to regroup after they have already broken.


That has no effect on the fact they will get cut down when they turn to run. A chaos marine KNOWS they will get shot in the back when they turn to run, the original legionnaires had ATSKNF. You can't simply forget that knowledge to make yourself more easily shootable.




I'll try to break this down into a real world analogy that you might be able to understand.

Battle of Iwo Jima. 22,000 Japanese defended the island. Only slightly more than 200 were captured alive.
Battle of the Rhineland. Estimated 280,000 German soldiers taken prisoner.

Now, you'd be hard pressed to make an intelligent, reasonable argument that the Japanese soldiers were 1,000 times better trained than the Germans. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'd have to add at least thirty seven LOLs to that chain if you tried.

However, something about the difference in mentality and culture of the Japanese military that made 22,000 men fight to the death for a rock in the middle of the ocean against unbeatable odds.

Not convinced? Peleliu: nearly 11,000 Japanese soldiers, 200 captured. Guadalcanal. 31,000 dead, approximately 1,000 captured. Tarawa. 3,000 killed. 16 captured.

Battle of the Scheldt? (one guess, but it's not in the Pacific Ocean, lol). Estimate 11,000 or so killed, 41,000 captured. Battle of Aachen. 5000 killed or wounded, 5600 captured. Battle of the Bulge. 15,000 killed, 27,000 captured/missing.


I mean, obviously, the Japanese military was like so ridiculously more disciplined and well trained than the Germans, since those cowardly Germans were surrendering at an astronomical rate, and the Japanese were willing to fight to the death time and time again. It had absolutely nothing to do with self perception and cultural indoctrination. The Japanese are just so ridiculously better trained than the Waffen SS, thousands of whom surrendered at various points on the Western front of WW2. The Japanese regulars were just so much better trained than Germany's elite shock troopers.

I'm sure that's it.

So you're saying that it's impossible for a Seal team or SAS with their superior training to retreat from an engagement without turning and running? That they can't perform a fighting withdrawl?

Your argument is pointless - I never claimed that indoctrination COULDN'T create this scenario, I am arguing they it's not the ONLY way to do it. You are arguing an absolute, that only an indoctrinated force can perform a fighting withdrawl without getting shot in the back.

Again, mechanics do not equal fluff. The mechanics of ATSKNF result in the unit being immune to being run down in melee, why that is the case fluffwise is irrelevant. You could say they're chicken **** cowards but they have claymores installed on their backpacks so when they run away they detonate, preventing the enemy from taking them down. Mechanically it has an identical effect, but a very different fluff justification.

fluff and mechanics are entirely separate, as i showed with the evidence you've ignored. Chaos space marines are trained as well as a space marine and we are told value their lives more due to gaining their 'freedom'.

You're argument is that their space marine training and a desire to survive result in the mechanical effect of.... being cut down when they turn tail. Doesn't mesh at all.

Hellebore

Hellebore
04-02-2013, 11:07
O rly?

Shall I take a picture of the page for you? Pg. 48, 2nd Edition rulebook. It wasn't called ATSKNF at that point, but it was effectively the same rule that eventually was renamed ATSKNF.

Please. Please. Please, pretend that it wasn't. Seriously. It will be worth the lulz.


Yes, I was being serious. You can even see the part of my post that mentions the Shaken rule in it, which you've ignored. I know very well that 2nd ed space marines had a rule called shaken. However as you were basing your argument on the indoctrination of space marines I was pointing out that they didn't have [I]ATSKNF, they had shaken which is described differently to the modern rule and importantly worked mechanically differently. The rule did not stem from indoctrination, but strangely, from their TRAINING:



Space marines are quite aware of their own worth and will not throw away their lives in displays of futile bravado.

Now, not only was this not about their indoctrination, the mechanims it used was different. So they didn't use the same rules either, which was the point. They became Shaken, which meant they could not advance towards the enemy, which meant if they couldn't move without coming closer to the enemy they couldn't move at all.

Shaken marines could not follow up (sweeping advance) in combat against new opponents. They could still function normally other than those restrictions. HOWEVER, the most important aspect of Shaken, which you've blithely ignored in an attempt to ridicule me is that it A) wasn't automatically recovered from and B) could be broken PROPERLY if they failed a second test whilst Shaken.

ATSKNF is totally different from that. Marines in 2nd ed simply had to fail two Morale tests to flee, in 3rd ed onwards they never permanently break at all.

Oh and space marines couldn't rally at 25% either, they would keep running if broken. Yet another thing that makes Shaken NOT ATSKNF.




I'm sure this is from your extensive military experience, in combat, no doubt.


Irrelevant ad hominem is irrelevant. EDIT: This is more an argument from authority fallacy than an ad hominem.



This is true. A lot of features have to do with what might make you turn your back on an enemy and run.


And space marines turned and ran during 2nd ed just like a guardsman, they simply had to fail two morale tests to do that.




Sadly, it has nothing to do with this discussion, and doesn't support an argument in favor of Chaos Marines being able to take advantage of ATSKNF.


We are discussing whether the chaos space marines should get the mechanics found in ATSKNF and you seem to be unable to decouple those mechanics from the fluff description of why they get them.



Nevermind. We didn't have to wait. Hold one second.


LOLOLOLOL.


Okay, I'm done. Let's continue.

:rolleyes:



Leadership 9/10. Less likely to break than Space Marines by default. There you go. However, no reason to regroup after they have already broken.


That has no effect on the fact they will get cut down when they turn to run. A chaos marine KNOWS they will get shot in the back when they turn to run, the original legionnaires had ATSKNF. You can't simply forget that knowledge to make yourself more easily shootable.




I'll try to break this down into a real world analogy that you might be able to understand.

Battle of Iwo Jima. 22,000 Japanese defended the island. Only slightly more than 200 were captured alive.
Battle of the Rhineland. Estimated 280,000 German soldiers taken prisoner.

Now, you'd be hard pressed to make an intelligent, reasonable argument that the Japanese soldiers were 1,000 times better trained than the Germans. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'd have to add at least thirty seven LOLs to that chain if you tried.

However, something about the difference in mentality and culture of the Japanese military that made 22,000 men fight to the death for a rock in the middle of the ocean against unbeatable odds.

Not convinced? Peleliu: nearly 11,000 Japanese soldiers, 200 captured. Guadalcanal. 31,000 dead, approximately 1,000 captured. Tarawa. 3,000 killed. 16 captured.

Battle of the Scheldt? (one guess, but it's not in the Pacific Ocean, lol). Estimate 11,000 or so killed, 41,000 captured. Battle of Aachen. 5000 killed or wounded, 5600 captured. Battle of the Bulge. 15,000 killed, 27,000 captured/missing.


I mean, obviously, the Japanese military was like so ridiculously more disciplined and well trained than the Germans, since those cowardly Germans were surrendering at an astronomical rate, and the Japanese were willing to fight to the death time and time again. It had absolutely nothing to do with self perception and cultural indoctrination. The Japanese are just so ridiculously better trained than the Waffen SS, thousands of whom surrendered at various points on the Western front of WW2. The Japanese regulars were just so much better trained than Germany's elite shock troopers.

I'm sure that's it.

So you're saying that it's impossible for a Seal team or SAS with their superior training to retreat from an engagement without turning and running? That they can't perform a fighting withdrawl?

Your argument is pointless - I never claimed that indoctrination COULDN'T create this scenario, I am arguing they it's not the ONLY way to do it. You are arguing an absolute, that only an indoctrinated force can perform a fighting withdrawl without getting shot in the back.

Again, mechanics do not equal fluff. The mechanics of ATSKNF result in the unit being immune to being run down in melee, why that is the case fluffwise is irrelevant. You could say they're chicken **** cowards but they have claymores installed on their backpacks so when they run away they detonate, preventing the enemy from taking them down. Mechanically it has an identical effect, but a very different fluff justification.

fluff and mechanics are entirely separate, as i showed with the evidence you've ignored. Chaos space marines are trained as well as a space marine and we are told value their lives more due to gaining their 'freedom'.

You're argument is that their space marine training and a desire to survive result in the mechanical effect of.... being cut down when they turn tail. Doesn't mesh at all.

There was far less difference in 2nd ed because you could STILL break loyalist space marines. The chaos marines would retreat as they would rather live to fight another day whilst the imperials would doggedly stay their ground. But space marine still broke and that is anathema to the current ATSKNF rules where space marines basically ignore all the psychology mechanics in the game when it suits them.

Hellebore

totgeboren
04-02-2013, 11:13
I think it makes little sense that CSM don't get something similar. My favourite CSM faction is the WB, and they are most likely more fanatically dedicated to their cause than any UM is to the IoM and the Big E. They are also at least as well trained, so that approach doesn't work either.

Though I could see why 'normal' Renegade marines would simply lose ATSKNF (thanks to their mercenary-like nature), and as always the CSM codex is a mix of renegades and legionaries, not being able to represent either very well.

Hellebore
04-02-2013, 11:17
IMO Chaos marines should have the 'fearless when caught in sweeping advance' part of ATSKNF. They can keep "not auto rally after fall back", because they can choose to leave if they are finding it too hard. But they do everything on their own terms and there's no way they'd simply turn their backs and let their enemies kill them. they may not be indoctrinated but they still know it's a dumb thing to do.

They wouldn't be able to fight in coherent squads if they didn't still possess their training. If they know categorically that turning their back on the foe prevents them living to do whatever they want, it makes no sense for them to do it. It is entirely in keeping that a chaos marine does whatever he can to survive and as the original legions already had training on how to do just that (represented by the ATSKNF mechanics), it's not some mysterious secret fighting method, it's simply a fighting withdrawl controlled in the face of enemy assault.

Hellebore

totgeboren
04-02-2013, 11:36
We should remember that a sweeping advance doesn't necessarily represent all the members of the unit getting killed by having swords stabbed through their backs. I rationalise my fanatical CSM getting swept as one of them martyring themselves or the unit splitting, where a few distracts the enemy so the others can escape and so on. If things are looking bad enough that they need to do things like that, the squad will fall back to a better position. Rulewise, they are removed from the battlefield, but in mind, they will be back to fight another day at least.
You don't become a veteran of the long war by having all your men dying in some pointless last stand, like loyalist SM often do.

But it just feels like justification of rules that make little sense to be honest... Good thing I got my Orks to fall back on! :)

Wyrmwood
04-02-2013, 11:53
At least that Fearless is relatively common in Codex: Chaos Space Marines; the Icon of Vengeance bestows it and every non-Fearless Space Marine squad can take it. However, you do then have the problem of the destruction of the Icon Bearer causing the loss of Fearless.

quantumcollider
04-02-2013, 12:05
A sweeping advance is not necessarily a rout where the loser turns tail and flees, only to be cut down from behind. It could also be a disastrous loss of squad cohesion that the attacker can exploit.

In the case of Chaos Space Marines, it can mean that several marines try to fall back to a move advantageous position to launch a counter attack, while other fight to the death. With this confusion running rampant through the unit, the individual marines fall victim to the more organised enemy, with those that stand and fight get surrounded and attacked from all sides, while those that fall back get separated and outnumbered. And there are perhaps a few that reason that discretion is the better part of valour.

ATSKNF in loyalist Space Marines represent their immense training in fighting like a unit, so that even in the most adverse conditions they fight as a whole greater than the sum of its parts, confusion or the fog of war never taking hold. Chaos Space Marines units, although powerful, skilled and brave, are more a collection of individuals who's actions are not so finely tuned to the rest of the unit.

Veteran Sergeant
04-02-2013, 19:30
Shaken marines could not follow up (sweeping advance) in combat against new opponents. They could still function normally other than those restrictions. HOWEVER, the most important aspect of Shaken, which you've blithely ignored in an attempt to ridicule me is that it A) wasn't automatically recovered from and B) could be broken PROPERLY if they failed a second test whilst Shaken.This ignores the fact that close combats had significantly different resolutions and mechanics in 2nd Edition. Yeah, the rule's mechanics changed when 40K change. That shouldn't be surprising. ATSKNF is still the 3rd Edition equivalent to "Shaken". Yeah, the rule changed. The whole game system radically changed from 2nd to 3rd. But it's ludicrous, and absolutely wrong, to suggest that they aren't directly related to one another.

Irrelevant ad hominem is irrelevant. Is it irrelevant? It certainly isn't ad hominem. Do you, in fact, have the experience and knowledge to have made the statement you made? If not, it was wholly unqualified, and it was entirely fair for me to have asked about what made you qualified to make such an observation and pass it off as fact. By all means, make me look foolish and explain your credentials. In fact, I'd love to have a serious, intelligent discussion with a fellow veteran, and would love to rectify my mistake if I had pegged you as a civilian with no combat experience or training in error.



A chaos marine KNOWS they will get shot in the back when they turn to run, the original legionnaires had ATSKNF. You can't simply forget that knowledge to make yourself more easily shootable. ATSKNF is not explicitly about training, or even knowledge. Chaos Marines already have a higher leadership than most troops, including Space Marines. So they are already less likely to break, than most other troops. In fact, by default, led by an Aspiring Champion, they only break on 3 results out of 36 (11 or 12). 8% of the time. Space Marines led by a Sergeant, on the other hand, will fail a morale check on 7 out of 36 results. More than twice as often. Chaos Marines are actually twice as well trained and disciplined when their training and discipline holds, which, as it turns out is exactly what the Leadership trait represents. ATSKNF does not represent training or discipline. It represents a less tangible quality that Space Marines have, psychologically, due to their faith in the Emprah and their duty.

A unit making a fighting withdrawal passes its leadership check, and then makes the conscious decision to fall back. A unit failing a morale check is running away, their training having been overridden and thus rational judgement being suspended. Until they pass a leadership check again. Strange how that works. If they are overrun and wiped out before they can pass that check? Well, that's been a part of warfare as far back as warfare goes. 40K plays by old school rules where nobody cares if an AP journalist photographs you shooting people in the back, or dead-checking the wounded.


So you're saying that it's impossible for a Seal team or SAS with their superior training to retreat from an engagement without turning and running? That they can't perform a fighting withdrawl?I've never said that, nor have I implied it, and it's dishonest and rude of you to make such a suggestion. Please limit your replies to what I have actually said, and not inventing things for me to have said. If you're confused (which you apparently are), ask. I'll happily clarify for you.

I actually refuse to discuss real world analogies until you can provide some reason for me to believe that it will be productive. If you have relevant real world knowledge of combat and the psychological stressors involved, and how trained combatants meet and overcome these stressors, then we can discuss this. Otherwise it's pointless, because we'll be discussing your perceptions of these psychological states, instead of the actual states themselves.


You are arguing an absolute, that only an indoctrinated force can perform a fighting withdrawl without getting shot in the back. Again, a complete fabrication and misrepresentation of my argument, and quite possibly a deliberate misrepresentation.


You could say they're chicken **** cowards but they have claymores installed on their backpacks so when they run away they detonate, preventing the enemy from taking them down. Mechanically it has an identical effect, but a very different fluff justification.But I wouldn't say that, because that's stupid. Everything I'm saying is based on intelligent contextual analysis, factual basis, and high level deduction and reasoning. Let's try to keep this topic in that realm.


fluff and mechanics are entirely separate, as i showed with the evidence you've ignored. Chaos space marines are trained as well as a space marine and we are told value their lives more due to gaining their 'freedom'. Again though, you're basing this belief on an understanding of real world combat stressors and how somebody "should" react. The problem is, I'm not convinced you have any qualifications to make those assumptions, and your arguments thus far have not shown that my analysis is wrong. /shrug. If you're not a veteran, are you a clinical psychiatrist? Or some other profession that would lend credence to these theories? Your analysis lacks supporting evidence. Things are not a certain way because you say they are. Things are a certain way because the are. And things that are can be factually supported.

Plus, at what point has the training of Chaos Marines really ever been explored? Do we know that their training is comparable in any way? We know that they have similar stats. But lots of units in the game have high BS, WS and/or Leadership scores, and yet aren't trained like Space Marines are. There are lots of ways to train elite troops. Apparently the Chaos way of doing it omits the part that gives Space Marines ATSKNF.


You're argument is that their space marine training and a desire to survive result in the mechanical effect of.... being cut down when they turn tail. Doesn't mesh at all. I can see where you are having difficulty here. You think I have ever said that the Chaos Marine's "desire to survive" has anything to do with not having ATSKNF. I've never said that. Now you should be less confused.

In fact, if anything, the Space Marine's disregard for his own survival enhances ATSKNF. What a Space Marine "fears" is failure. Death isn't failure for him. Failing his mission. Letting down his brothers, the Emprah, humanity, etc. These are all part (not all. NOT ALL. Just so we're clear and you don't run away with this) of the classical depictions of ATSKNF.

Chaos Marines, on the other hand, have never been depicted with that mentality, or level of dedication. And that's why they never had "Shaken" and never had ATSKNF.

The problem is that you are still not acknowledging that training and discipline are represented by the Leadership score. When that leadership based test is failed, the level of training becomes mechanically irrelevant. Like I showed, Chaos Marines are significantly less likely than most troops to break. That's training and fanaticism, given mathematical representation on the tabletop. But, once that's broken, then they are demoralized (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demoralized) and subject to being routed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rout).

Since training and discipline have a mathematical rules representation on the tabletop, then the reasonable deduction is that ATSKNF is something else entirely. Maybe even a sense of purpose, unity and duty.

Space Marines and Chaos Marines are only superficially complementary. I know that is easy to miss, since they've often had the same vehicles and basic weapons and armor. But Chaos Marines have had rules that reflect the fact that they are no longer Space Marines, and instead a twisted and corrupted remnant of one. Part of that has always been that they don't have ATSKNF.


your abrasive tone and use of Internet meme foolishness hardly warm me to debating with you further. Respond to this post if you wish, but have your 'victory.' I shall not be discussing matters with you again.This was the most amusing response thus far.

The guy who flippantly brushed off my original post with a pop culture reference to Jeopardy, accuses me of using "Internet meme foolishness". That's a good one. I enjoyed it.

Azazel
04-02-2013, 19:54
Loyalist Space Marines are like cornered rats in a rapidly declining empire, beset on all sides by forces that vastly out number them. They Shall Know No Fear because they doom their civilization if they flee.

Chaos Space Marines are selfish, egotistical maniacs who will go to any lengths to accomplish their goals. However debased, cowardly or unethical their means may seem.

Besides, most units in the Chaos Space Marines Codex are Fearless all together.

Veteran Sergeant
04-02-2013, 20:45
Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I understand that my knowledge and experience on these kinds of matters leave a lot of people disadvantaged in an argument, and that being at a disadvantage is frustrating, especially if you've solidly entrenched your system of belief.

If I reacted poorly to your posts that I perceived as condescending and rude, I apologize. I come from a background, both in the military and academia, where experience and knowledge are treated with respect and deference. In that matter, I am perhaps ill-equipped at times for the complexities of Internet forums where the level of knowledge is not always commensurate with that level of deference and respect. I don't ever take offense to your disrespectful tones, however it does sometimes make me return that level of disrespect. And I'm really good at that, lol.

Look at the path this discussion took:
I posted my opinion.

Disrespectful reply where that opinion is brushed off with a reference to Jeopardy.

Respectful reply where I outlined how I disagreed and supported the distinction between what I represented as a "purpose" and a "shared sentiment".

Respectful reply disagreeing.
Subtly sarcastic post disagreeing.

Respectful reply to the first one detailing how the specificity of having a target of hatred (The Emperor) doesn't necessarily mean that there is a cohesive
Respectful reply to sarcastic post, despite acknowledging the condescending tone of the original, I simply addressed the points I disagreed with, because ultimately, a solid argument is the first and best choice.

Disrespectful response using 1. semantics to refute a valid point, 2. accusations of creating a false dichotomy when I did not, 3. unsupported "expert" analysis
Slightly disrespectful post by the Jeopardy poster.

At this point, having been treated in a condescending and/or disrespectful manner twice, by two different posters, did I reply back in a sarcastic tone, and suddenly I'm the bad guy for laughing at being talked down to by people whose replies imply they don't even understand the core concepts of my argument since they continuously misrepresent them in their replies. Again, obviously my character flaw for finding humor in that. /shrug.

Since it's obvious that certain people can't behave in a respectful manner, and that tempts me to want to be disrespectful in return, I'm going to bow out. My only other recourse is reporting the posts, and well, that seems childish. I haven't had to run to Daddy since I was in elementary school. Not going to start now just because some people can't behave themselves, nor tolerate a discussion with someone who has a solid, intelligent answer for every question posed.

Polaria
05-02-2013, 06:11
A chaos marine on the table top runs away with exactly the same effect as a guardsman fleeing from battle. A space marine is still a space marine, they are excellently trained. A chaos marine is simply far more aware of protecting his life than dying in the name of a forgotten cause. But due to the sweeping advance mechanics, they will turn tail and get shot down, which is at odds with their training and survival instinct.

Being an indoctrincated imperial drone doesn't somehow mean you magically avoid being cut down as you retreat. A chaos marine no more uncontrollably flees showing his back to the enemy than an imperial marine does. They are too well trained for that. It's not got anything to do with blind obedience to the emperor or whatever, it's the training that turning your back on the foe gets you killed.

A chaos marine looking out for himself in a unit with others of the same persuasion all trained like space marines, is not going to willingly show his back to the foe so they can shoot him in it.


Well, CSM retreat could be seen as "every man for himself" type of egress from the fight. They die less than guardsmen, maybe don't die at all, in Sweeping Advance, but they cease to contribute anything to the combat as the squad scatters and every man tries to make his way to rally point on its own. Thus, for the purposes of the battle the tabletop game represents, the CSM squad is "destroyed" even though for fluffwise they didn't sustain as many casualties as comparable "destroyed" guardsman squad.

Of course this only makes sense if a killed model does not necessarily mean actually killed, but rather "removed from active combat". The oldie 40K (1st edition) had a rule that when a model was "killed" in-game the person the model represented was not necessarily killed for campaign purposes. Basically if you wanted to find out the real casualties you rolled for every model that was killed to see if he was removed from combat due to light wounds, serious wounds or actually being really killed. Due to this rule in campaigns your actual casualties (number of killed) were around third of the amount of models you lost.

totgeboren
05-02-2013, 06:12
Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I understand that my knowledge and experience on these kinds of matters leave a lot of people disadvantaged in an argument, and that being at a disadvantage is frustrating, especially if you've solidly entrenched your system of belief.

Talk about trolling... You seem to be actively trying to get people riled up. What's the point?

Anyway, the concept that the difference in battlefield behaviour of CSM to SM seems to be based on the idea that CSM:
a) Lack conviction in a cause
b) Are less disciplined/trained to fight as a group

Both of these arguments fall flat, especially in the case of the BL and WB (I don't know if the AL know what their cause is so... they should more than make up for it with training though).

Lets take a WB squad as an example. These guys are more fanatically dedicated to their cause than the GKs are to the Emperor, seriously that argument simply doesn't work. So what about their ability to fight as a coherent unit?
Well, they have fought together during the great crusade (not all of them I know), and though time moves strangely in the warp, the different squads will have operated together for longer than most, if any, SM units. How could this translate into them not communicating well with each other or not knowing what the others will do in a bad situation? They are ******** Veterans of the Long War. Is there any faction more deserving of ATSKNF?
Loyalist Scouts even get ATSKNF, and they are more or less conscripts in comparison to a VotLW. To my mind, conscripts, even if they are fighting for a cause they believe in, are not known for their ability to make organised fighting withdrawals in the face of overwhelming odds. The background and the rules simply make little sense.

All the background arguments proposed for why SM should have ATSKNF apply equally well, if not more so to many CSM factions.

But in the end, the only problem is the extreme favouritism shown to SM, which makes people frustrated. Why does Terrify remove fearless but not ATSKNF? Why does a 10-man tactical SM unit only cost 10 pts more than a CSM unit with the same gear? Is ATSKNF, combat squads and combat tactics only worth one measly point? I can go on and on, but I will not as there are enough whining threads.

In short, I don't think CSM are well represented by their rules, at least not in comparison with loyalists.

Tamuz
05-02-2013, 07:28
I dont think the problem is that CSM arent represented well, but rather that loyalist SM are poorly represented. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that gives huge bonuses to loyalist SM without realy managing to reflect what it is supposed to.

In practice, ATSKNF allows marines to back out of assault range if they are shot before they are charged and gives them a version of hit and run. Nothing to do with being indoctrinated or fearless, but rather something that would better represent extreem mobility, initiative, and co-ordination. Even with the many boosts movie marines have in the fluff, they are not usually noted for being difficult to engage (and keep engaged) in combat. How many fluff references can you find for marines backing away from a fight?

I am not dissapointed that CSM do not get ATSKNF, I just wish they would give the loyalists a rule that actually reflected them better.

Hellebore
05-02-2013, 09:39
I dont think the problem is that CSM arent represented well, but rather that loyalist SM are poorly represented. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that gives huge bonuses to loyalist SM without realy managing to reflect what it is supposed to.

In practice, ATSKNF allows marines to back out of assault range if they are shot before they are charged and gives them a version of hit and run. Nothing to do with being indoctrinated or fearless, but rather something that would better represent extreem mobility, initiative, and co-ordination. Even with the many boosts movie marines have in the fluff, they are not usually noted for being difficult to engage (and keep engaged) in combat. How many fluff references can you find for marines backing away from a fight?

I am not dissapointed that CSM do not get ATSKNF, I just wish they would give the loyalists a rule that actually reflected them better.

I agree, which is why the disparity never seemed as bad in 2nd ed. The issue is entirely with the comparative distance between the two rather than any specific value.

Hellebore