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Menthak
01-02-2013, 17:11
Just a small question about Space Marine Chapters (Or War-bands/legions)

Who do you think are the most 'flawed' overall.

For example, in my opinion, I think it's a tie between the Space wolves (Awkward gene seed, their members turning into wolves, having only one recruiting world (That I know of) and being short-sighted)

I'd be interested to see what everyone else thought.

-Menthak

Spider-pope
01-02-2013, 17:18
Dark Angels. They aren't physically flawed, what with having the purest geneseed around, but psychologically they are a mess. They've become so obsessed with their end of Heresy issues, constructing a vast web of lies around themselves, that it's detrimental to their own success and survival. They can't risk alliances outside of the Unforgiven, which in turn causes others to distrust them. The lie is more important than their duty to the Imperium.

Sure a Space Wolf might be a pain to fight alongside and have a low rate of recruitment. But at least he won't bugger off in the middle of a critical battle because someone heard a vague rumour about a guy two sectors away wearing black armour.

Leftenant Gashrog
01-02-2013, 18:08
I think I agree with that, for all their flaws the Space Wolves still get the job done. The Dark Angels for all their perfection still periodically fail in their duty to the Emperor.

TheDungen
01-02-2013, 18:40
Yeah dark angels, i their pursuit of the fallen they're abandoning everything that makes them different from the fallen. As for the writing they really need to stop giving the dakr angels and their successors times when they've abandoned their allies to their death and start giving them a few fallen got away because the unforgiven commander did the right thing unforgiven commander get berated by the dark angels supreme grandmaster. making it something of an in chapter issue as well, not something that is natrual for the dark angels but a hard decision they do but hate that they have to do.

as for the wolves their flaws only exist to make them cooler or my sympathetic, which makes them more canon sue than even the sueltramarines.

the second most flawed would be blood angels i recon, seem to remember they've torn allies apart while under the influence of the rage?

yabbadabba
01-02-2013, 19:14
Ultramarines. In wargaming terms you cannot enjoy any of the benefits their chapter skills bring to the battlefield.

NemoSD
01-02-2013, 19:17
Dark Angels have some serious issues. Inquisition is constantly watching them, mainly out of fear of legion building, which lets be honest, they do do. (They are obviously close enough to their successors that having an Angel of Vengeance 2nd Company Master command the Ravenwing works, and they did build an entire chapter just to chase down Cypher, so... they treat Successor chapters almost like reserve battle companies.) They've actively betrayed Imperial Works to keep their secret, up to and including destroying a Black Templar battle cruiser because the Templars MAY have seen something they shouldn't. (There was no promise that what they had seen was even noticed.)

Then they treat Techmarines as second class Marines, because... well they are loyal to the Machine Cult. Techmarines probably have shorter lifespans then Ravenwing Masters, simply due to the fact that once a techmarine starts to piece **** together, he gets disappeared.

They are paranoid, over serious, and caught up in a multiple tiered circle of secrets that Scientology should be taking notes. They are so bloody intrusting that they do not share tech, not because they are greedy (The Rock is the armory for the Successor chapters as well, see legion building argument above.), but they are concerned it might reveal parts of their secrets.

One wonders how many Inquisitors have been to the Rock never to be seen again.

jareddm3
01-02-2013, 19:48
The most flawed chapters are purged from the records as soon as their flaws start to emerge. Case in point, the Flame Falcons.

Mage
01-02-2013, 19:50
It depends on the era really. I mean, if you were to take the grey armoured word bearers who worshipper the Emperor as divine from before they went traitor, and copy and pasted them into the modern Imperium, they would be ideal.

I think negligible Chapters like the Dark Angels, or ones that cause needless collateral damage or kill civilians (Marines Malevolant, some of the crazier Blood Angel descendants or similar) fit the bill.

viv714r
01-02-2013, 21:39
With regards to the DA abandoning their allies, there is a page in the new codex which describes a battle between the DA and Eldar. Asmodai urges Belial to drop everything to hunt a Fallen, yet he dismisses Asmodai saying that it isn't their only duty. So there's hope yet. However they did attack an Inquisitorial ship and when asked about it they just said: "Inquisitorial Ship.... na, not here. Say Bobbael, did you see one?" "No, not for years." This of course was said as they swept the evidence under the carpets.

NemoSD
01-02-2013, 21:47
With regards to the DA abandoning their allies, there is a page in the new codex which describes a battle between the DA and Eldar. Asmodai urges Belial to drop everything to hunt a Fallen, yet he dismisses Asmodai saying that it isn't their only duty. So there's hope yet. However they did attack an Inquisitorial ship and when asked about it they just said: "Inquisitorial Ship.... na, not here. Say Bobbael, did you see one?" "No, not for years." This of course was said as they swept the evidence under the carpets.

Forgot about that one... the Black Templar one always stands out more because it was a little harder to hide.

And they did end up attacking the Eldar and curb stomped them... which with current rules sounds about right, but I desperately hope that the Eldar gain some strength so that that story is a little less believable :-p

viv714r
01-02-2013, 22:14
Especially since the Titan was violated by a plasma cannon. They'll have their time soon, or so I hope for the combined sanity of xenos players.

RagingScots
02-02-2013, 05:11
I would say probably the Flesh Tearers. They got the short end of the Blood Angel stick and will go so far as to kill their allies in a mindless rage. I know it happens a few times in the space wolves too but not to such a scale. Space wolf commmanders also seem to be able to control those afflicted by the curse.

Grit
02-02-2013, 09:01
Space Wolves:- Only one world to recruit from,but this doesn't seem to affect there fighting strength from what I have seen really.

Salamanders:- Slow recruitment rate due to how they train there new marines,low fighting strength compared to other chapters. Will go out of there way to defend civilians instead of pressing the attack.

Iron Hands:- Got a real complex with cybernetics,and aren't very trusting from what I have read.

Blood Angels- The black rage and red thirst.

Dark Angels:-love to leave the fight if they know there is or have heard of the fallen in the area.

omgadinosaur
02-02-2013, 10:03
Salamanders:- Slow recruitment rate due to how they train there new marines,low fighting strength compared to other chapters. Will go out of there way to defend civilians instead of pressing the attack.
.

I'm sure imperial citizens don't think being protected is a flaw. :p

Kakapo42
02-02-2013, 10:15
Surely the most flawed would be the Lamenters? They're cursed with horribly bad luck, and after all they've been through, they're still not immune to the Blood Angels flaws (and getting rid of those was the whole point behind the Lamenters in the first place).

Sir_Turalyon
02-02-2013, 10:44
Relictors, for obvious reasons? In fact, I think every chapter has it's flaws nowadays as part of design process.

DA obsession is a double edged sword - despite obvious flaws, it allowed them to maintain their Legion identity when split into chapters and protected them from ultramarinefication most other legions suffered from. It's bit like Judaism - will protect your culture from assimilation for 3500 years, even if some people will *strongly* distrust you for that.

Grit
02-02-2013, 11:58
I'm sure imperial citizens don't think being protected is a flaw. :p

Quite true, I'm just going by Hellsreach where some Salamanders came down in drop pods to help out the Black Templars,and they could have pressed on to the offensive but instead to defend the bunkers and took more casualties than might have been nesscary. To which the Black Templars weren't very impressed.

TheDungen
02-02-2013, 12:09
yeah but jews don't on a regular basis cause the death of millions of people to keep their own dirty laundry from surfacing. its not about what others think about them its about what they do.

Camman1984
02-02-2013, 16:15
For flaws that may lead to exconunicae gotta bethe dark angels, but that is more a flaw in behavior and poor loyalty that could be remedied.

The space wolves are a bit mutated so that could be an issue.

My winner though is the blood angels. They have shared visions leading to bezerk rages, there is the blood rites and potential vampirism. Their characters are also questionable;
dante with his vampiric eternal youth
Mephiston might as well be a demon prince and his story is similar till a few 'gave up their souls in times of adversity' stories around. And finally the icing on the cake is the entity that appears only in the blood angels greatest need and that is a manifestation of their emotions and suchlike, and is never truly killed only banished, sanguinor=demon anyone?

NemoSD
02-02-2013, 16:41
For flaws that may lead to exconunicae gotta bethe dark angels, but that is more a flaw in behavior and poor loyalty that could be remedied.



Dark Angels do not have a loyalty problem, no more then any of Space Marine chapter. They are for the Emperor, and serve the Emperor without question. They are perhaps the most religious of the Chapters, with the most zealous Cult of the Chapters, probably only second behind the Black Templar. In that religious cult belief, they have justified the few times they actively caused the death of Imperials as necessary. When they abandon Planet Defense Forces, as they have in the past, they do it because their belief is that hunting Chaos, and specifically the Fallen, is the ultimate mission, the end goal of their entire existence, and they are damned good at it. They have far more checks in the column of rushing to a rescue and saving Imperials then abandoning them. Read the new codex, and the timeline, not just the bits where they establish the grimdark single-mindedness of their hunt.

Your other points stand though, there actions in legion building, the times they have harmed Imperial subjects, even other chapters, and the reason why they do all of that, can serve to leave them in serious trouble. They rest on a knife edge at all times, which is probably fueled by there 'grim seriousness.'

TheDungen
02-02-2013, 16:57
do they though? the emperor and the imperium are one. and abandoning imperial citizens and forces to their death hurts the imperium and subsequently the emperor, they are putting their own needs before those of the emperor.
It can be justified by the fact that they want to be able to keep serving the emperor and figure that the ones they abandon are fewer than those who would die if they weren't around.

NemoSD
02-02-2013, 17:01
do they though? the emperor and the imperium are one. and abandoning imperial citizens and forces to their death hurts the imperium and subsequently the emperor, they are putting their own needs before those of the emperor.
It can be justified by the fact that they want to be able to keep serving the emperor and figure that the ones they abandon are fewer than those who would die if they weren't around.

Or take it from a perspective of a religious zealot, who knows he is faithful, because of what they are, risk excommunication. As long as their secret is safe, they can serve and save imperial lives. If they have to let a planet die, well then they let a planet die knowing that by protecting their secret they have ensured they have the opportunity to serve humanity more, and save more planets then were sacrificed. It is exactly the devil's bargain people think the Space Wolves should have in their own fluff, but flavored for the Dark Angels unique perspective on it.

superdupermatt
02-02-2013, 23:13
Re: Dark Angels being perfect t but flawed, it's why I love their successor chapter, the Angels of Absolution. They're great!
"oh so you guys are still hunting the fallen huh? We've come to terms with it now. We're good"

NemoSD
03-02-2013, 00:23
Re: Dark Angels being perfect t but flawed, it's why I love their successor chapter, the Angels of Absolution. They're great!
"oh so you guys are still hunting the fallen huh? We've come to terms with it now. We're good"

They still protect the secret, they just have a slightly more positive outlook on life. Dark Angels are the Jewish, they are all sinners and have to prove they are good... they do this through the brutal torture and death of the fallen.... which is more humane then burning a piece of lamb, I mean way waste lamb, it is so much yums... anyways, the Angels of Absolution are Catholic's, the Sins have been forgiven, so yaay happiness, but they still carry around the per-forgivieness guilt treatment and get stuck in engaging in variations of the torture scene. They don't burn the lamb every meal, they just give it up for a few months every year.

DarthMarko
03-02-2013, 01:05
They still protect the secret, they just have a slightly more positive outlook on life. Dark Angels are the Jewish, they are all sinners and have to prove they are good... they do this through the brutal torture and death of the fallen.... which is more humane then burning a piece of lamb, I mean way waste lamb, it is so much yums... anyways, the Angels of Absolution are Catholic's, the Sins have been forgiven, so yaay happiness, but they still carry around the per-forgivieness guilt treatment and get stuck in engaging in variations of the torture scene. They don't burn the lamb every meal, they just give it up for a few months every year.

Dude did you write DA are jewish? LOL
How is hiding something, and abandoning their duties when they need to cover things up is proving that they are good?

NemoSD
03-02-2013, 01:15
Dude did you write DA are jewish? LOL
How is hiding something, and abandoning their duties when they need to cover things up is proving that they are good?

Never actually said the DA were good... in fact I said they were incredibly flawed due to their unique obsession, but they are loyal in their own way.

TheDungen
03-02-2013, 10:14
NemoSD we should stop comparing the dark angels to real life religions, it was a bad idea when sir turaylon did it i could just have ignored it, but if we keep doing it, it'll eventually lead to a crackdown.

squilverine
03-02-2013, 13:20
My vote goes to the Black Templars.

Not so much for any flaws they exibit, frustrating tactcal choices aside (no devistator units or librarians), but more so for the risk they would pose if excommunicated.

Whilst many of the mainstream chapters previously mentioned have their more obvious flaws.

Dark Angels with their reckless obsesion for hunting the Fallen above all else

Blood Angels with their vampyric tendancies and characters leaning towars the daemonic

Space Wolves with their slow recruitment rate and high mutation level

I can't help but think in terms of sheer numbers, should the Black Templars ever be excommunicated (however unlikely) the idea of several thousand, possibly over 10,000, highly mobilised and single minded superhumans banding together would pose possibly one threat too far for the Imperium. Where as however difficult a chapter of closer to 1000 would be far easier to deal with.

m1acca1551
03-02-2013, 13:53
DA are the most flawed due to there history they have the most to lose, inquisitors can over look the SW canine thing even the reports of BA going beserk etc but having a chapter hide it's heresy? that's something that cannot be over looked. It is a historical flaw not a physical one but a flaw all the same.

Turning there guns on imperial forces is the act of a traitor, failing to defend an imperial settlement is the act of coward or traitor. I love DA yet in the same thought i dislike them for there single minded pursuit of there traitor past.

So for me DA are the most flawed.

NemoSD
03-02-2013, 16:32
NemoSD we should stop comparing the dark angels to real life religions, it was a bad idea when sir turaylon did it i could just have ignored it, but if we keep doing it, it'll eventually lead to a crackdown.

It wasn't so much a comparission as an analogy, I never meant to imply a similarity in belief structure, merely a similarity in relationships which I honestly can not find any where else. Point is taken though.

Aranel
04-02-2013, 12:30
I think that 'flawed' needs to be more clearly defined. As it stands, it emcompasses to many ideals, or in this case, lack of them!

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 14:21
true enough aranel, I believe that flawed indicates a flaw of character not of capability. making mistakes makes a person flawed and thus belivable. the person may or may not realise they've made mistakes.

Madmongo
05-02-2013, 16:15
Why does everyone keep mentioning that the Space Wolves have low recruitment? Considering that a vast quantity of chapters recruit from death worlds (why not Catchan I have no idea) it would not just be the space wolves having a low recruitment level.

Its worth bearing in mind that the odds of a recruit being selected is into the millions (on the fore mentioned death planets this is reduced by the high mortality rate), and for each recruit selected barely a handful get through the testing process.

On what level are we discussing flaws? Biological (in which case there are probably countless pro-to chapters that failed to be created due to instability), technological (space wolves due to their tech supply problems), physic (Blood angels/Lamenters are pretty central here), mental/ideological (Dark Angels, Salamanders etc all have serious issues).

NemoSD
05-02-2013, 17:09
Why does everyone keep mentioning that the Space Wolves have low recruitment? Considering that a vast quantity of chapters recruit from death worlds (why not Catchan I have no idea) it would not just be the space wolves having a low recruitment level.

Its worth bearing in mind that the odds of a recruit being selected is into the millions (on the fore mentioned death planets this is reduced by the high mortality rate), and for each recruit selected barely a handful get through the testing process.

On what level are we discussing flaws? Biological (in which case there are probably countless pro-to chapters that failed to be created due to instability), technological (space wolves due to their tech supply problems), physic (Blood angels/Lamenters are pretty central here), mental/ideological (Dark Angels, Salamanders etc all have serious issues).

Not all recruitment worlds are death worlds. (Dark Angels and Ultramarines both have documented use of Hive Worlds.) The Space Puppies only have one, where as the others have many.

Madmongo
05-02-2013, 22:58
I can think of number of different chapters/legions that solely recruit/recruited from death worlds.

Recruiting from one planet is fairly standard....

Blood angels - Baal death world

Salamanders - Nocturne death world

Dark Angels - Caliban (formerly) death world

Flesh Tearers - Cretacia Death world

Death Guard - Barbarus Death world

World Eaters - Bodt Death world.

Countless chapters/legions recruit solely from one planet.

Considering that the space wolves do not follow the codex and operate with great companies instead (with some elements of course being allowed to effectively leave the chapter altogether) and practice an extremely close combat doctrine I would actually suggest the space wolves have a fairly high recruitment rate. It would have to be to account for their size compared to other chapters, and for their losses.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-02-2013, 23:00
I would say the Chapters named as having many recruitment worlds are actually in the minority. Most Chapters get one home world. They recruit from that world. Exceptions being the likes of Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Ultramarines, etc. who are fleet based or have an empire.

NemoSD
06-02-2013, 03:57
I would say the Chapters named as having many recruitment worlds are actually in the minority. Most Chapters get one home world. They recruit from that world. Exceptions being the likes of Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Ultramarines, etc. who are fleet based or have an empire.

Dark Angels have always recruited from multiple worlds, it is part of what lead to the whole Fallen thing, as the Lions best bud, and some of his Caliban brothers felt they were being left out because the Lion was taking more of the marines from the other recruitment's, and they became bitter and angry, and all emo like.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-02-2013, 04:12
Yes. Dark Angels were one of the exceptions I named.

EDIT: Oh, I see. Well, then they were recruiting from multiple worlds by choice. Now, in modern 40k, not so much.

Danny_Boy
06-02-2013, 23:44
Blood Angels and their successor chapters, the Black Rage and Red Thirst, while not the most debilitating of the space marine chapters' gene flaws, it occurs most frequently in fully-fledged battle brothers.
As far as doctrine goes, the Ultramarines cause themselves massive trouble by forcing themselves to stick so rigidly to the rules of the codex.
The Dark Angels have been covered thoroughly already, though.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2013, 03:46
The Codex is supposed to be ten thousand years of accumulated combat wisdom added to the works of a logistical, strategic, and tactical superhuman prodigy, though. Sure, Tyranids. But then you take what you learned... and add it to the Codex, just as others have done. Then, what you do is Codex! It's a stupid plot hook to give the golden Maccragean boys some 'flaw' to match other Chapters who are randomly turning into bloodsucking monsters, randomly turning into furry monsters, randomly abandoning allies to chase old vendettas, randomly replacing limbs with bionics, randomly saving civilians over accomplishing a mission, randomly dying in last stands, randomly quoting a M2 Old Terran poet who wrote about ravens once... what they should do is just accept that yeah, there's no deep inner struggle for the Ultramarine Chapter as a whole, but for individuals and for the battles they fight. Simple as that.

m1acca1551
07-02-2013, 05:12
Sticking to the codex astartes is not a flaw, when fighting against the unknown well it can certainly allow you to out thought, but in 90% of cases the codex gives the guidelines for how a battle should be fought, from the book void stalker the NL reflect on the when the ultramarines come knocking on their new home world after the heresy and they state it was the most brutally effective siege fought since the storming of terra.

Ultramarines are really flawless and that is what people find attractive or unattractive, some people like a little dirt on there legion or chapter.

When you compare a SW company to a Ultramarine comapny assaulting an enemy position the SW will storm the place wipe out the defenders and lose a few in the process, the ultras will observe, wait and strike in a manner that requires the minimum amount of force for the most gain. Not exactly a flaw.

Black templars if ever excommunicated would simply continue there crusade as they are right in the emperors eyes alone.

Harwammer
07-02-2013, 14:37
Ultramarines' weakness is they don't have a secret flaw to hypermotivate them like Blood Angels and Dark Angels do! Nothing to keep up appearances of absolute perfection and loyalty like a secret that could destroy the entire chapter if there were reason to investigate it properly ;)

TheDungen
07-02-2013, 17:07
the ultras weakness is that a lot of them (not all though) dogmaticly follows the strategy of a book available in any well supplied book store(well maybe not but gulliman was handing it our prior t the heresy). that makes them predictable.

DarthMarko
07-02-2013, 17:31
I can think of number of different chapters/legions that solely recruit/recruited from death worlds.

Recruiting from one planet is fairly standard....

Blood angels - Baal death world

Salamanders - Nocturne death world

Dark Angels - Caliban (formerly) death world

Flesh Tearers - Cretacia Death world

Death Guard - Barbarus Death world

World Eaters - Bodt Death world.

Countless chapters/legions recruit solely from one planet.

Considering that the space wolves do not follow the codex and operate with great companies instead (with some elements of course being allowed to effectively leave the chapter altogether) and practice an extremely close combat doctrine I would actually suggest the space wolves have a fairly high recruitment rate. It would have to be to account for their size compared to other chapters, and for their losses.

baal is not a death world

Brother Captain Lucian
07-02-2013, 17:48
Baal and its two moons were all but destroyed by in a terrible war. Ancient viral and nuclear weapons had turned the once idyllic worlds into toxic wastelands. The survivors became scavengers, constantly moving from places to places, and warring to preserve the spoils they gathered.

Quote from Lexicanum*

In my ears it sounds like a deathworld?

Another edit to remain on topic: I would say that the iron hands are badly flawed.. They have lost what little remained of humanity in them, and their general approach to war is somewhat dogmatic.. Atleast thats how i read it.

DarthMarko
07-02-2013, 17:55
^
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Baal

Desert world/Feral - but not death world if im not mistaken...

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Death_World

And here is the definition^

Kiro
07-02-2013, 17:55
randomly dying in last stands

Lol, I just pictured a Space Marine facepalming and sighing 'not again!'

Akwikone
07-02-2013, 20:02
I'm suprised no one brought up when The Alpha Legion sabotaged Corax's Gene Seed experiments. Basically making Raven Guard recruits into Ogryns.

m1acca1551
08-02-2013, 03:41
the ultras weakness is that a lot of them (not all though) dogmaticly follows the strategy of a book available in any well supplied book store(well maybe not but gulliman was handing it our prior t the heresy). that makes them predictable.

That is a strength as much as it is a weakness, the enemy will plan chapter 1 but the ultras bring chapter 4 tactics, plus they can always change tactics in a heart beat quicker because they know the codex like the know their bolter, other chapters like the SW will simply hurl themselves against the wall and if beaten try again because this is all they know, not saying all are the same but predictability is by no means a flaw, unless you have only the one tactic and you have no info on what your enemy are upto.

Lets say the WB are setting up a defensive ridge against an Ultramarine attack, they think they know how the ultras will attack and set up accordingly, the ultras will most likely observe the enemy position and either commit as planned but with a secondary force to counter attack or simply change the angle of attack all together, against WB this will give them the advantage for a few seconds but at the elite level this is all that is required to win or cause significant casualties.

insectum7
08-02-2013, 05:12
Space Wolves are not as simplistic as they are made out to be, (and despite what players might be doing with them :) ). Surely they may have a different style of fighting than more codex-adherent chapters, but I don't think it's all "RAWR! IN YOUR FACE". They're not running around and foolishly deploying their troops for the "saga" later. They're sophisticated combatants.

Lothlanathorian
08-02-2013, 06:15
^
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Baal

Desert world/Feral - but not death world if im not mistaken...

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Death_World

And here is the definition^

Should be noted that the Blood Angels recruit from the moons of Baal. Specifically mentioned with frequency is Baal Secundus.

5th Edition Codex: Blood Angels, page 10:

"...Cities became plains of smouldering glass. Lush grasslands became polluted deserts. Seas became poisoned lakes of toxic sludge. The people of Baal died in their millions and it looked as if humanity might become extinct in the Baal system. But somehow people survived. They clung precariously to life on the edges of radioactive deserts...

...Over the course of the following centuries, the accumulated chemical and radioactive toxins that built up in the survivors' bodies led to them devolving into mutants...Extinction awaited the slow and the weak. Where once the moons had been near paradise, now they were living hells."

I must admit, this sounds absolutely nothing like a death world.

m1acca1551
08-02-2013, 06:20
You are definitely correct SW are more that simplistic monsters but once they do struggle with controlling the rage or beast that can lead to a controlled fight turning into a bar room brawl. The SW are the perfect measure of a feral warrior, disciplined, dedicated and utterly ferocious once let loose in combat, but in there lays the problem, once unleashed they can be very hard to control and if goaded can allow there discipline to break revealing the raging beast inside.

They are probably the most deadly of all the chapters when fighting is on their terms but apart from the ferociousness they have little tactical sense when compared to the Ultramarines who whilst nowhere near as fierce in combat there tactical decisions and discipline make them far more effective on a strategic scale not just tactical.

Picture a dog, it bites and snarls at you, you manage to call the bluff or simply deny (blunt) it's ability to attack you you will be able to win as you have control, the dog has not. It's very hard to do this though :)

Kiro
08-02-2013, 06:28
They are probably the most deadly of all the chapters when fighting is on their terms

Any Chapter is potentially the deadliest when fighting on their own terms ;)

TheDungen
08-02-2013, 07:37
That is a strength as much as it is a weakness, the enemy will plan chapter 1 but the ultras bring chapter 4 tactics, plus they can always change tactics in a heart beat quicker because they know the codex like the know their bolter, other chapters like the SW will simply hurl themselves against the wall and if beaten try again because this is all they know, not saying all are the same but predictability is by no means a flaw, unless you have only the one tactic and you have no info on what your enemy are upto.

Lets say the WB are setting up a defensive ridge against an Ultramarine attack, they think they know how the ultras will attack and set up accordingly, the ultras will most likely observe the enemy position and either commit as planned but with a secondary force to counter attack or simply change the angle of attack all together, against WB this will give them the advantage for a few seconds but at the elite level this is all that is required to win or cause significant casualties.

except the word bearers have copies of codex astartes so they sit down and say "hey if the ultras see us doing this what will they do, response to this given action this, ok lets look like we're doping this while we're doing that" its like playing chess with a chess program you designed yourself, (or rather have the coding for).

I'm pretty sure the art of war mentions the use of subterfuge, now its a highly overrated book in my opinion (or rater it was good when it was written but war has change in the last 2000 years) but it does have some valid points.

MvS
08-02-2013, 08:46
I think that the idea of Ultramarines being so dogmatic that they can't think outside the restrictions of the Codex is a flawed one. Yes we've seen hints of this in one or two novels, but then again we've also seen strong hints to the opposite of this in many novels too.

The fact that they propose and question ''theoreticals' and 'practicals' indicates critical thinking, but even that aside, I find it nearly impossible to believe that the Codex (written by the military genius Guilliman, who also drew on all the specialist expertise of the other Primarchs for his work) doesn't explore the most basic principle of command-and-control - that although there may be a relatively fixed strategy to a conflict, appropriate tactics can be left to the on-the-ground decision making of line officers.

So in other words, if the pre-developed 'Codex' battle plan seems to be countered by the enemy who (as mentioned previously in this thread) also have access to the Codex, then line commanders can adapt it as they go. As long as they aim towards the end strategy and do not impede their battle brothers, command and control, adaptation, spontaneity and improvisation can be devolved downwards.

m1acca1551
08-02-2013, 09:38
except the word bearers have copies of codex astartes so they sit down and say "hey if the ultras see us doing this what will they do, response to this given action this, ok lets look like we're doping this while we're doing that" its like playing chess with a chess program you designed yourself, (or rather have the coding for).

I'm pretty sure the art of war mentions the use of subterfuge, now its a highly overrated book in my opinion (or rater it was good when it was written but war has change in the last 2000 years) but it does have some valid points.


Yes that they do, but if the ultra's were as predictable as everyone says the surely they wouldn't exist as a fighting force, and neither would they be the most lauded and despised chapter in the Imperial force...

The art of war is simply a series of treatises that give the reader an idea of how to achieve victory, it creates a scenario that a general can then apply and modify to suite the battle field or the opponent. The cosex astartes is simply that, a great work of how to achieve victory and scenarios of how best to deploy in order to increase the chance of victory.

iamcjb
08-02-2013, 10:22
The AL used the codex to predict where and how the UMs would attack them (or would they?). The UMs caught the AL by suprize, and Alpahrius was killed (or was he?). Likewise I had notws for studying for my degree, but I couldnt tell you the questions before the exam.

I wouldnt say following the codex was predictable or rigid at all. Every modern day military has training, and its based on proven methods.

The more you know your training the better you can switch tactics mid battle, or adapt to opponents strategies.

totgeboren
08-02-2013, 10:31
The Ultras and the WB are really just different sides of the same coin. Both obey hierarchies to the extreme, are rigid in their thinking, and their flaw could be said to be a propensity for dogmatism. They both have high recruitment rates and are skilled at setting up functioning logistics and societies (their recruitment rates is a consequence of this).

At the onset of the HH, the UM and the WB were the 'big' legions, with most others being at tops half the size of these two giants. Though different sources give different numbers, but the WB were the second largest legion at that time at least.

It is interesting that none of the traitor legions feel all that flawed in comparison with the Wolves or the Blood Angels. These two have genetic flaws so severe that it will result in the legion eventually being destroyed, which doesn't go for any other legion (except the TS before the rubric).

TheDungen
08-02-2013, 10:50
i said that they could sometimes be dogmatic, not that they always were, like not all dark angels commanders will leave their allies to die and not all space wolfs will charge to death and glory and a seat by the allfathers side.

its their hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats) but you milage may wary

Madmongo
08-02-2013, 11:18
The codex is merely a template similar to any military doctrinal process used by any effective military force. It is stated/summarized to be a mix of the purely tactical/operational (think the British Armies PRACTAC process/American orders process) as a guide to giving orders/the most effective use in a given situation, and a strategic doctrinal process such as the Russian concept of offense in depth.



Accordingly I think the idea that the Codex is rigidly adhered to is nonsense and would be of no benefit once the enemy was aware of it (which they are). The fact that the Ultramarines and their successors are so successful and are extensively copied/used as a benchmark by the High Lords suggests the codex is adaptable and effective. However it is certainly worth bearing in mind that doctrine and training are only effective so far and can be countered very easily (See Guillmans trap of 'Alpharius' and in real world terms the development of counter blitzkrieg policy by the allies in WW2) in a given situation.

It is interesting to wonder however if the Codex is allowed to be updated (of course much of it is directly relevant regardless of the foe) with the rise of xenos such as Nids/Tau.

totgeboren
08-02-2013, 11:38
Well, it has been stated a few times that the UM adherence to the codex is almost religious, which seems to be similar to, but less extreme, than the WB adherence to the book of Lorgar.

To show the similarities with an example. If the main character in a BL book belongs to either the WB or the UM, he will invariably be a 'radical', and bend the rules, with some other 'long-time conservative friend' character arguing against him, though being proven wrong in the end. Often the breach of protocol will lead to some sort of punishment, but the character did good anyway and will have earned the respect of his peers at the end of the book.

And the UM dogmatism in regards to the codex has been their defining flaw since at least 2ed. Ok, following the codex is generally a good idea, but sometimes it does fall short, like their conflict with the Nids clearly shows.

Kiro
08-02-2013, 12:51
Wasn't Uriel Ventris punished by the Ultramarines for using non-Codex tactics?

TheDungen
08-02-2013, 13:11
also the um lost a lot of people to the fist nid onslaught since they fought them as the closest thing the codex had, orks. which had disastrous results.

But then they added chapters on fighting tyranids and did better. so they may be a bit narrow minded at times but they're not stupid.

MvS
08-02-2013, 13:26
Also, to be fair, NO-ONE had fought Tyranids before. No-one. So of course there was nothing in the Codex Astartes about how to face such an enemy, so the Ultramarines used closest appropriate tactics for fighting massive swarms of brutally powerful aliens (in this case Orks).

Even so, the Ultramarines succeeded in fighting back the threat, obviously adapting their strategies and tactics as they went (or else they would have been overwhelmed). It doesn't have to be dogmatism and narrow mindedness that made them follow the Codex when the Codex wasn't sufficient in this one case, because the Codex represents elite military planning and execution against all known enemy types. The fact that it didn't include how to counter a completely alien, extra-galactic hivemind of countless trillions of specially engineered killer-creatures is hardly a foreseeable weakness, and even so the Codex has since been adapted by the same troops who (let's not forget) managed to adapt themselves enough to defeat (however temporarily) the Tyranid threat in their region of space.

Madmongo
08-02-2013, 13:30
MVS so that does answer my question as to whether the codex is adaptable.... Who has the authority to amend it?

MvS
08-02-2013, 13:37
Interesting question.

Imagine it would require some sort of council meeting of Chapter Masters or their proxies, and possibly representatives from the relevant arms of the Imperium's governing structures. Almost certainly the Inquisition.

I mean any Chapter could adapt or adopt tactics for themselves, but to openly add to the Codex would probably be a Big Deal.

m1acca1551
08-02-2013, 13:38
When the AL legion fought the ultramarines they did so by using the codex against them, that is correct. But Roboute then flipped the table and deep striked into the heart of the AL command post where he "killed alpharius", if this is true he was able to turn the table on a primarch and assasinate him, if not he was able to break the deadlock and get his troops to safety.

m1acca1551
08-02-2013, 13:52
Interesting question.

Imagine it would require some sort of council meeting of Chapter Masters or their proxies, and possibly representatives from the relevant arms of the Imperium's governing structures. Almost certainly the Inquisition.

I mean any Chapter could adapt or adopt tactics for themselves, but to openly add to the Codex would probably be a Big Deal.

I dont really think the SM would be that rigid about changing doctrine, not after the nid fiasco. I would think that every chapter would file a after contact report noting tactics, numbers, colours/markings, weapons etc. This data would then be collected, collated and then uploaded to the codex always re-freshing the information so tcatics are constantly evolving as time goes on. The present day military has a real hard on for post contact data as it allows them to determine change of tactics, weapons etc and then our tactics or strategic thinking would change aswell.

The actual codex as penned by Guilliman would never be altered, but it would be updated by data collected by various chapters.

Kiro
08-02-2013, 13:55
So, yeah, I just went and looked it up: Uriel Ventris was punished for deviating from the Codex Astartes on Tarsis Ultra.

m1acca1551
08-02-2013, 14:14
So, yeah, I just went and looked it up: Uriel Ventris was punished for deviating from the Codex Astartes on Tarsis Ultra.

I thought that it was more for desserting his post and running of with the death watch that shamed the chapter, not so much a breach of the codex, head honcho of the ultra agreed that it was a move that saved the city yet shamed the ultra's??

Will have to flick through the book when i get a chance :P

Kiro
08-02-2013, 14:29
Been a while since I've read it myself; just vaguely remembered it from the Omnibus. IIRC, the other Ultramarines want to fight the Nids using the same methods they already had used but Ventris tries to explain the only way to defeat the Hive Fleet is by killing the Norn Queen, via the Death Watch.

On a related note, in Space Marine, Sidonus frequently complains that Titus' unorthodox actions aren't sanctioned by the Codex (to which someone here paraphrased Titus' reply as 'the Codex Astartes is for noobs' XD)

MvS
08-02-2013, 14:52
I dont really think the SM would be that rigid about changing doctrine, not after the nid fiasco. I would think that every chapter would file a after contact report noting tactics, numbers, colours/markings, weapons etc. This data would then be collected, collated and then uploaded to the codex always re-freshing the information so tcatics are constantly evolving as time goes on.

Ah, but there are two further points worth considering that problematises this:

1. The Codex isn't just about tactics, it is THE document that limits the powers of Marine Chapters as much as it does empower them. If it was too easy to change the Codex without consultation with other authorities, there would be no real checks and balances should Marines decide to start accumulating too much power for themselves. As it is the Ultramarines have their own inter-planetary empire with who knows how many millions of disciplined and highly trained conventional troops and materiel, long before we get onto the military might of the Marines themselves. Allowing them, or any other body, to adjust one part of the Codex Asatrtes without wider consultation would, I imagine, be regarded as too risky.

2. The Codex has attained a sacred status. This is obvious throughout the imagery. Even the notionally secular Ultramarines of the 41st millennium regard it as being almost holy, and indeed the very centre of their identity. They are THE Codex Marines after all. It would be no simple thing to simply add to and tweak the Codex as and when they please.

We know the Codex HAS been added to throughout the 10,000 years of its existence, but we don't know the circumstances of when this has happened nor yet the process required to add to it.


The present day military has a real hard on for post contact data as it allows them to determine change of tactics, weapons etc and then our tactics or strategic thinking would change aswell.

True, and as I mentioned before, I doubt that any Chapter (except the most crazed) would ignore new and important advancements against new and deadly enemies just for the sake of ideology. We know that Marines adopt tactics and technologies that they deem relevant and correct without necessarily seeking wider permissions or advice.

However, this is all in the backdrop of the 40K setting - a setting where blinkered religiosity and willful ignorance is actively pursued and even lionised. It is a place of actual gods and daemons, and also false gods and daemons. The Astartes of the 41st millennium are very different beasts from their more practical and enlightened ancestors during the Crusade. Even the ones that think they haven't changed over the 10,000 years since the end of the Heresy are mistaken from our God's-eye view. Adopting new tactics 'unofficially' is one thing; simply changing one of the most important constitutional, legal and even religious documents in the Imperium after every war where they believe something new has been learned is almost certainly off the cards.


The actual codex as penned by Guilliman would never be altered, but it would be updated by data collected by various chapters.

Ah, well this is the crux of it, we don't know how the Codex is structured nor which parts may or may not be considered 'okay' to add to or re-write. It would be like having the US Constitution with tactical and strategic doctrine included within it. Some parts of the ostensibly less relevant stuff might be ignored or tweaked in practice, but it's very unlikely that the document of the Constitution would be changed and then re-disseminated in its altered form to all interested parties without first consulting those parties.

m1acca1551
08-02-2013, 23:42
Ah, but there are two further points worth considering that problematises this:

1. The Codex isn't just about tactics, it is THE document that limits the powers of Marine Chapters as much as it does empower them. If it was too easy to change the Codex without consultation with other authorities, there would be no real checks and balances should Marines decide to start accumulating too much power for themselves. As it is the Ultramarines have their own inter-planetary empire with who knows how many millions of disciplined and highly trained conventional troops and materiel, long before we get onto the military might of the Marines themselves. Allowing them, or any other body, to adjust one part of the Codex Asatrtes without wider consultation would, I imagine, be regarded as too risky.

2. The Codex has attained a sacred status. This is obvious throughout the imagery. Even the notionally secular Ultramarines of the 41st millennium regard it as being almost holy, and indeed the very centre of their identity. They are THE Codex Marines after all. It would be no simple thing to simply add to and tweak the Codex as and when they please.

We know the Codex HAS been added to throughout the 10,000 years of its existence, but we don't know the circumstances of when this has happened nor yet the process required to add to it.



True, and as I mentioned before, I doubt that any Chapter (except the most crazed) would ignore new and important advancements against new and deadly enemies just for the sake of ideology. We know that Marines adopt tactics and technologies that they deem relevant and correct without necessarily seeking wider permissions or advice.

However, this is all in the backdrop of the 40K setting - a setting where blinkered religiosity and willful ignorance is actively pursued and even lionised. It is a place of actual gods and daemons, and also false gods and daemons. The Astartes of the 41st millennium are very different beasts from their more practical and enlightened ancestors during the Crusade. Even the ones that think they haven't changed over the 10,000 years since the end of the Heresy are mistaken from our God's-eye view. Adopting new tactics 'unofficially' is one thing; simply changing one of the most important constitutional, legal and even religious documents in the Imperium after every war where they believe something new has been learned is almost certainly off the cards.



Ah, well this is the crux of it, we don't know how the Codex is structured nor which parts are may or may not be considered 'okay' to add to or re-write. It would be like having the US Constitution with tactical and strategic doctrine included within it. Some parts of the ostensibly less relevant stuff might be ignored or tweaked in practice, but it's very unlikely that the document of the Constitution would be changed and then re-disseminated in its altered form to all interested parties but without consulting those parties.

You are certainly correct on most points, once cannot simply change the codex as well imagine the S*** storm that would happen haha

I don't think that any one would change the codex as it is, it is after all a base frame work for a SM's being. That saying i'd say that there would be chapter 1.13 siting of heavy weapons see galthax prime incident against ork raiding party clan A by captain bobby joe but M.38. Then 1.13 iiA) deployment of heavy weapons against ork raiding party of clan B, note change of xenos tactics using subterfuge as opposed to standard ork tactics, set up heavy weapons in this manner some captain m.39 etc

The actual base of the codex has not been changed just added too.

As for chapter size company designation well that would all be under the "taken under advisement" caveat.

Danny_Boy
09-02-2013, 01:45
I see what you're saying there, Imp_Dom, being too strait up and down is not much of a flaw when compared to turing into a wolf and going batshit on your allies, but it can't be dismissed entirely. UM are my favourite chapter after black templars, but to say that their dogmatism and refusal to be flexible is not a flaw is equally ridiculous. It's not a major flaw, but it's a flaw all the same. It causes losses because the UM almost deliberately overlook risky yet possibly lucrative combat tactics because the codex says to, and when a space marine does what he thinks is best, he gets punished for it. What if a black templar had done what Uriel Ventris did, and tore a tyranid mothership a new poop chute with a gene-coded bolt-round to the cortex? He'd be heralded as a hero, and certainly would not have been sent on a penitent crusade. A crusade which earned him a new, super-dangerous enemy, with a penchant for murdering innocent people just to get back at Uriel.

TheDungen
09-02-2013, 14:25
you cant really take the alpha legion incident into account becuase that was not the ultramarines that was guilliman. he had written the codex of course he knew when it was to eb followed and when to break the rules.

Its the later ultramarines that are sometimes slow to realise when to go against the codex. because admitting that the codex is not perfect would be saying that they know more of tactics that guilliman.
The codex is no doubt an extremly useful tool the problem is that it has been risen to some sort of holy tome and i doubt that was guillimans original intention.

Lord_Crull
09-02-2013, 18:10
And the UM dogmatism in regards to the codex has been their defining flaw since at least 2ed.

Not at all. It was first introduced by just one author, Graham McNeill in 3rd edition with his Ventris books. Then those books later became more popular, and as a result the Ultramarines have become foolish dogmatists who would strictly follow an outdated tome rather than innovate.

This is of course save for those few mavericks like Ventris and Titus.

In truth it's rather tiring that the Ultramarines have become infected by that trope to the point were I've stopped playing them.



Ok, following the codex is generally a good idea, but sometimes it does fall short, like their conflict with the Nids clearly shows.

What did the conflict with the Tyranids show? I don't recall any part of it were the Codex worked against them.

yabbadabba
09-02-2013, 19:34
In truth it's rather tiring that the Ultramarines have become infected by that trope to the point were I've stopped playing them. How bizarre.

Anyway, GW can write what they want IMO. I play a UM Successor Chapter because I like it. The problem is in a 40K game anything that brings the UMs strength cannot be used, unlike the benefits and flaws of other Chapters.

Lord_Crull
09-02-2013, 19:48
How bizarre.


How so? You may be content to ignore what is written, but I am not. Thus I no longer play Ultramarines nor am I a fan of them any longer.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-02-2013, 20:09
I guess that is a difference in how you approach a shared universe. I thoroughly reserve the right to ignore background that offends me, and GW's recent contempt for Chaos Undivided isn't stopping me from using a Word Bearers Coryphaus as one of my Chaos Lords and adding a squad of Consecrated as soon as I am employed and may afford to add fun, if less competitive, units to my army. However, I understand how explaining such an approach over and over to the fellows across the table might get exasperating; is that why you quit Ultramarines?

Lord_Crull
09-02-2013, 21:01
I guess that is a difference in how you approach a shared universe. I thoroughly reserve the right to ignore background that offends me, and GW's recent contempt for Chaos Undivided isn't stopping me from using a Word Bearers Coryphaus as one of my Chaos Lords and adding a squad of Consecrated as soon as I am employed and may afford to add fun, if less competitive, units to my army. However, I understand how explaining such an approach over and over to the fellows across the table might get exasperating; is that why you quit Ultramarines?

I quit Ultramarines because I was tired of defending them online and to everybody else. I'm getting sick of tired of hearing ''LOL Ultramarines are misguided hypocrites who obey an outdated book.''. That's made worse by the fact that it's true according to Graham McNeill. In addition GW is taking the Ultramarines in a direction that I really do not like. I hated Know No Fear for example.

All this adds up to me giving up on the Ultramarines and their misguided existence and choosing another superior chapter, such as the Imperial Fists or Raven Guard, who don't get even half of the ribbing that the Ultramarines do. Perhaps some may enjoy playing a chapter of misguided dogmatists. I do not.

NemoSD
09-02-2013, 22:31
I quit Ultramarines because I was tired of defending them online and to everybody else. I'm getting sick of tired of hearing ''LOL Ultramarines are misguided hypocrites who obey an outdated book.''. That's made worse by the fact that it's true according to Graham McNeill. In addition GW is taking the Ultramarines in a direction that I really do not like. I hated Know No Fear for example.

All this adds up to me giving up on the Ultramarines and their misguided existence and choosing another superior chapter, such as the Imperial Fists or Raven Guard, who don't get even half of the ribbing that the Ultramarines do. Perhaps some may enjoy playing a chapter of misguided dogmatists. I do not.

Us Dark Angel players get it a lot too... being told constantly that we are traitors. (Although one thing I am observing that I am already back to one of three Dark Angels players, but one of 20 using the DA Codex... the rest or UM/BA etc who are using the codex now.)

yabbadabba
09-02-2013, 22:33
How so? You may be content to ignore what is written, but I am not. Thus I no longer play Ultramarines nor am I a fan of them any longer.I find it bizarre that people invest time and money in something, only to give it up because of made up nonsense and in reaction to misguided fools treating that nonsense like it was some sacred word.

Lord_Crull
09-02-2013, 23:32
I find it bizarre that people invest time and money in something, only to give it up because of made up nonsense and in reaction to misguided fools treating that nonsense like it was some sacred word.

Considering the entire army is based on said ''nonsense'' I find it odd that anyone would believe otherwise.

You make it sound so casual. I spent years being an Ultramarine fan, until I simply could not take the scorn anymore and i realized that GW's vision of the Ultramarines was not the same as mine. It was not an easy decision for me to make. I can continue to explain this over and over to you if you wish.

Istlod
10-02-2013, 06:34
The Space Wolves' mutation is actually, for some reason, positive, because it actually helps to protect them from Chaos magic.

m1acca1551
10-02-2013, 07:41
Considering the entire army is based on said ''nonsense'' I find it odd that anyone would believe otherwise.

You make it sound so casual. I spent years being an Ultramarine fan, until I simply could not take the scorn anymore and i realized that GW's vision of the Ultramarines was not the same as mine. It was not an easy decision for me to make. I can continue to explain this over and over to you if you wish.

Lord_Crull i know what you mean, i just put it down to the petty whinings of people who are from lesser chapters! People who are jealous that their legions were not chosen to become the greatest of all legions, that there primarchs were unsuitable for leading the imperium in a time of betrayal (except sanga, he really didnt get much of a chance :() that even after 10000 years the name of the guilliman still has meaning and that the ultramarines are the quint essential vision of a space marine and everything that they should aspire to be.

Loyal, proud and unflinching in there duty and have nothing to hide... :)

I know that this will do little to bring you back to the ultras but hey you arent alone, when the others are simply big noting themselves we will be doing our duty as we have always done!

Christ im gotta get flamed for that hahaha

TheDungen
10-02-2013, 10:52
I dont get it you want them to be flawless crull? a man (and perhaps a woman too i have no idea) is defined by his flaws and how he overcomes those flaws, that's what makes him human. and space amriens and even primarchs are human in spirit.

We're not bashing the Ultramarines (though we may sometimes bash GW's love for them but thats mostly for fun) we're pointing out what we view as their endearing flaw.

Would that all chapters had flaws that has actually ended up costing them something (i'm looking at you spacewolfs) or are actually trying to overcome their flaws (hello dark angels). But i guess i expect to much from gw's writers.



Lord_Crull i know what you mean, i just put it down to the petty whinings of people who are from lesser chapters! People who are jealous that their legions were not chosen to become the greatest of all legions, that there primarchs were unsuitable for leading the imperium in a time of betrayal (except sanga, he really didnt get much of a chance :() that even after 10000 years the name of the guilliman still has meaning and that the ultramarines are the quint essential vision of a space marine and everything that they should aspire to be.

Loyal, proud and unflinching in there duty and have nothing to hide... :)

I know that this will do little to bring you back to the ultras but hey you arent alone, when the others are simply big noting themselves we will be doing our duty as we have always done!

Christ im gotta get flamed for that hahaha

Why would you get flamed? The ultras are the greatest of all chapters, their only flaw is being a little stiff on protocol, most chapters have way worse inner daemons.

Kiro
10-02-2013, 12:41
I dont get it you want them to be flawless crull? a man (and perhaps a woman too i have no idea) is defined by his flaws and how he overcomes those flaws, that's what makes him human. and space mariens and even primarchs are human in spirit.

Would that all chapters had flaws that has actually ended up costing them something (i'm looking at you spacewolfs) or are actually trying to overcome their flaws (hello dark angels). But i guess i expect to much from gw's writers.

I agree with the sentiment, especially when it comes to the Space Wolves.
I do think, though, that Ultramarines should be flawless; they're the Space Marine poster boys, they're Space Marines 'done right'.

That said, I also have no problem with the Ultras being hidebound in terms of following the Codex: helps maintain the feel of 40k and the Imperium.

Lord_Crull
10-02-2013, 14:13
I dont get it you want them to be flawless crull? a man (and perhaps a woman too i have no idea) is defined by his flaws and how he overcomes those flaws, that's what makes him human. and space amriens and even primarchs are human in spirit.


I don't want them to be flawless. I just want them to be competent warriors and not hidebound hypocrites who follow an outdated dusty old book. As it stands now the Ultramarines look like idiots for strictly following the Codex Astartes. No other Chapter is like that, nor has any other Chapter gotten their Primarch's intentions so badly wrong.

MvS
10-02-2013, 17:35
I can't help but feel that the attempt at making Ultramarines even more dystopian by being Codex-fetishists was a knee-jerk reaction to the apparent swing in the other direction amaongst fans (due to the various Codices) that the Ultramarines are 'perfect'. No Marine in the 41st millennia is perfect, but depicting the Ultramarines, the Codex Exemplars, as being faintly moronic wasn't a great way of trying to redress the balance.

Kiro
10-02-2013, 18:42
I can't say for the why's and why nots, but setting-wise, it works for me, viz Biblical interpretation and Church authority in the Medieval Ages.

*shrugs*

Lord_Crull
10-02-2013, 18:52
I can't say for the why's and why nots, but setting-wise, it works for me, viz Biblical interpretation and Church authority in the Medieval Ages.

*shrugs*

The problem with that notion (which would have been one entirely introduced by McNeill himself, and not a path GW had set the Ultramarines on in previous sources) is that there are a lot of Chapters that do not feel quite as obligated as the Ultramarines to uphold every detail of the Codex Astartes. If adhering dogmatically to its tenets is a disadvantage, then there should be a lot of Chapters that are far more successful than the Ultramarines. But that is not really how they are presented, is it?

Sure, even while dogmatically following a flawed document, the Ultramarines might triumph at battles where a more liberal Chapter does not, through sheer fate. And their vast resources might offset the "advantage" of a different, younger Chapter that did't adhered as closely to the Codex. But over a time span of thousands of years and a thousand Chapters to compare them to, the statistics would be conclusive and undeniable in the 41st millennium. The Ultramarines Chapter would perform average at best, and would not be among the highest achieving Chapters.

In short, if following the Codex strictly is a detrimental thing, then other less strict chapters must be better fighters than the Ultramarines.
The fact that Black Library even went out and had Guilliman himself state that his Codex was not to be followed strictly certainly does not help my opinion of the Ultramarines.

Kiro
10-02-2013, 19:03
In short, if following the Codex strictly is a detrimental thing, then other less strict chapters must be better fighters than the Ultramarines.

That's if, which, as far I'm aware, has only really been an issue with the Tyranids.


The fact that Black Library even went out and had Guilliman himself state that his Codex was not to be followed strictly certainly does not help my opinion of the Ultramarines.

You could extend that to any of the other Primarchs not really making a provision for their descendants becoming pseudo-religious-nazis defending a totalitarian fascist Imperium, or indeed the slide from M31 Imperium to M41 Imperium. Personal taste, I guess; I just find it adds to the imagery and theme of the game.

TheDungen
10-02-2013, 19:07
oh plenty f other chapters have gotten their primarchs intentions wrong. just look at the dark angels for an example. I'm not sure the lion will be overly pleased when he finally returns and gets the list of imperial causalities as a result of his unforgiven trying to cover up his mistakes.

Sanguinisstus would propably have a similar wtf moments if he could return. His marines are drinking his blood as a ritual.

Being a little stiff on protocol is getting of easy when it comes to flaws.

Lord_Crull
10-02-2013, 19:11
That's if, which, as far I'm aware, has only really been an issue with the Tyranids.


Have you read Graham McNeill's Ultramarine books? It practically revolves around the Codex being deficient.



You could extend that to any of the other Primarchs not really making a provision for their descendants becoming pseudo-religious-nazis defending a totalitarian fascist Imperium, or indeed the slide from M31 Imperium to M41 Imperium. Personal taste, I guess; I just find it adds to the imagery and theme of the game.

There is really no comparison. Has any other Chapter gotten their Primarch's core philosophies so badly wrong? Did any other chapter get their Primarch's combat doctrine's so badly wrong? None that I can think of. You could make an argument for Chapters changing in tone, but none have every gotten their primarch's core beliefs so utterly wrong nor do any of them follow a flawed combat doctrine to a moronic degree.


oh plenty f other chapters have gotten their primarchs intentions wrong. just look at the dark angels for an example. I'm not sure the lion will be overly pleased when he finally returns and gets the list of imperial causalities as a result of his unforgiven trying to cover up his mistakes.

Sanguinisstus would propably have a similar wtf moments if he could return. His marines are drinking his blood as a ritual.

Being a little stiff on protocol is getting of easy when it comes to flaws.

Has any of that been actually stated so in the books? No? Then it's not a flaw. That and I'm fairly sure Sanguinius introduced the blood-drinking ritual.

yabbadabba
10-02-2013, 19:15
Again, this feels like a storm in a teacup. The UMs are fine as an army, the problem is, as always, the players.

Kiro
10-02-2013, 19:21
Have you read Graham McNeill's Ultramarine books? It practically revolves around the Codex being deficient.

I've got the first omnibus; long time since I read it. I quoted above from memory that Ventris and Pausanius were punished because of deviating from Codex tactical doctrine. Is there anything else in there, it's been a while?




There is really no comparison actually. Has any other Chapter gotten their Primarch's core philosophies so badly wrong? Did any other chapter get their Primarch's combat doctrine's so badly wrong? None that I can think of. You could make an argument for Chapters changing in tone, but none have every gotten their primarch's core beliefs so utterly wrong nor do any of them follow a flawed combat doctrine to a moronic degree.

That's not what I was talking about, actually. If you feel the Ultras have deviated more than any other Chapter from their Primarch's vision, fine, cool. Hell, that works even better. I'm just saying if the Ultras are hidebound traditionalists, it doesn't damage the feel and theme of the game for me.

Lord_Crull
10-02-2013, 19:26
I've got the first omnibus; long time since I read it. I quoted above from memory that Ventris and Pausanius were punished because of deviating from Codex tactical doctrine. Is there anything else in there, it's been a while?


I could give you a long list of the Codex offering flaws and insane advice, but that in itself would warrant another thread on it's own. Suffice to say Graham takes great pains to show why the Codex is a bad thing, hence the reason why I no longer play Ultramarines as my army.



That's not what I was talking about, actually. If you feel the Ultras have deviated more than any other Chapter from their Primarch's vision, fine, cool. Hell, that works even better. I'm just saying if the Ultras are hidebound traditionalists, it doesn't damage the feel and theme of the game for me.

You also claimed it could be extended to other Chapters, hence my response.

Kiro
10-02-2013, 19:38
I could give you a long list of the Codex offering flaws and insane advice, but that in itself would warrant another thread on it's own. Suffice to say Graham takes great pains to show why the Codex is a bad thing, hence the reason why I no longer play Ultramarines as my army.

Fair enough, been a while since I read the omnibus. I'm just more interested in theme over particulars here.


You also claimed it could be extended to other Chapters, hence my response.

Sorry, I was referring to the decline of the Astartes and the Imperium as a whole, hence "or indeed the slide from M31 Imperium to M41 Imperium".
I'm not particularly interested in which Chapter wins the prize for 'greatest deviation from Legion founding'. If you feel it's the Ultras, fair play, I can see your point.

Xisor
10-02-2013, 20:39
Kiro - I don't think it's the case that the Ultramarines deviate, but that they deviate from what they're supposed to be in 40k. (It presents a problem that, by implication, undermines everything about them.)

If the Ultramarines truly are the 'best of the best', but they're also held back by the Codex... surely there's room for other, deviant chapters to be better than them? But if it's not their adherence to the Codex that keeps them 'best', despite it being their defining feature, why are they as good as they are?

Whilst in principle I do like the idea that the Ultramarines have fallen far from their origins - the actual play out of the 'facts' doesn't support that thinking. If they were 'super obsessed' and also suffering because of it... that'd be cool. But they're suffering because of it... without any real downside - so the Codex can't be that important in the first place. The concepts are inconsistent and difficult to reconcile (under scrutiny) without just being a bit... bleargh. We'd be better off with them just being intensely boring book-botherers without much other note.

Kiro
10-02-2013, 20:43
Whilst in principle I do like the idea that the Ultramarines have fallen far from their origins - the actual play out of the 'facts' doesn't support that thinking. If they were 'super obsessed' and also suffering because of it... that'd be cool. But they're suffering because of it... without any real downside - so the Codex can't be that important in the first place

I don't think I presented my case very well - what I just quoted above far more eloquently states what I meant (that and everything else in the Imperium). I'm fine with them having a flaw-that-isn't-a-flaw as opposed to any of the other First Founding Chapters.

Madmongo
11-02-2013, 15:52
The codex may be a little outdated, and followed perhaps a little to enthusiastically but how is this a flaw?

The ultramarines are near enough militarily perfect, a fact that has meant they are copied by the High lords as much as possible. Sure they might be traditionalists venerating a book penned by their primarch, but it’s a book written by a demi-god, has proven itself in countless conflicts, and is largely easily adaptable.

The fact that it is interpreted wrong and that this interpretation has gotten more endemic over the millennia is irrelevant. Ultramarines are clearly shown in BL writings to actively break from the codex i.e. Guilliman against the nids, creation of tyrannic war veterans, etc etc.

TheDungen
11-02-2013, 20:23
other more deviant chapters may be better at specific things that the ultras but the ultras can handle any situation.

They cant beat the unforgiven in a manhunt.
they're less furious than the wolves of fenris
they arent as good in close combat as the blood angels
or do siege works as well as imperial fists
or can place as many men on the groudn as the black templars
or do black ops as well as the ravenguard.
or are as tech savy as the iron hands
or burn things as well as the salamanders
or do lighting warfare as good as the white scars
But they and their codex alllows them to do better all over in all these situations than any other chapter.

Lord_Crull
11-02-2013, 20:50
The codex may be a little outdated, and followed perhaps a little to enthusiastically but how is this a flaw?

The ultramarines are near enough militarily perfect, a fact that has meant they are copied by the High lords as much as possible. Sure they might be traditionalists venerating a book penned by their primarch, but it’s a book written by a demi-god, has proven itself in countless conflicts, and is largely easily adaptable.


Have you read McNeill's Ultramarine books? If anything it is most certainly not easily adaptable and suffers from some rather serious flaws. Several times the Codex gives horrible advice. Several times Ultramarines must ignore it in order to win. That's treated as something shocking and heretical by the rest of the Chapter.



The fact that it is interpreted wrong and that this interpretation has gotten more endemic over the millennia is irrelevant.

It is perfectly relevant. The fact that they got it so badly wrong is the chief part of why they are tactically deficient and have gotten their Primarch's intentions wrong, unlike any other Chapter in the Imperium.


Ultramarines are clearly shown in BL writings to actively break from the codex i.e. Guilliman against the nids, creation of tyrannic war veterans, etc etc.

You miss the point that those who break from the Codex are the minority and seen as criminal by the Ultramarines chapters.

Again, have you read the Ventris books? He is exiled and punished for deviating from the Codex. Deviating from the Codex was treated as something shocking and horrible by the Ultramarines. Even the Tyranid War Hunters were something that was heavily opposed and criticized in their own chapter, and considered to be something unprecedented in ten thousand years of Ultramarine history.


other more deviant chapters may be better at specific things that the ultras but the ultras can handle any situation.

They cant beat the unforgiven in a manhunt.
they're less furious than the wolves of fenris
they arent as good in close combat as the blood angels
or do siege works as well as imperial fists
or can place as many men on the groudn as the black templars
or do black ops as well as the ravenguard.
or are as tech savy as the iron hands
or burn things as well as the salamanders
or do lighting warfare as good as the white scars
But they and their codex alllows them to do better all over in all these situations than any other chapter.

But no other Chapter is restrained by following all aspects of the Codex, even the negative ones. Guilliman himself says the Codex is not to be followed strictly, yet the Ultramarines do that.

yabbadabba
11-02-2013, 21:32
Shall we get back to the topic at hand?

Has someone mentioned Thousand Sons yet?

Kiro
11-02-2013, 21:37
Shall we get back to the topic at hand?

Has someone mentioned Thousand Sons yet?

Good one! Although I wonder if 'ticking time-bomb' goes beyond flawed...

TheDungen
12-02-2013, 08:24
But no other Chapter is restrained by following all aspects of the Codex, even the negative ones. Guilliman himself says the Codex is not to be followed strictly, yet the Ultramarines do that.

Considering that the imperium has managed to turn the imperial truth to faith in the god emperor, following the codex strictly inst all that far from it purpose.

Lord_Crull
12-02-2013, 11:51
Considering that the imperium has managed to turn the imperial truth to faith in the god emperor, following the codex strictly inst all that far from it purpose.

The Imperium’s religious polices are irrelevant. I speak of the Codex and it’s military doctrine on the battlefield and it’s place within a Chapter. What I do care about is the military doctrine as laid down by their Primarch. No other chapter has gotten their Primarch's specific doctrine so badly wrong, nor has any other chapter noted to be so held back by it.

Hence why I no longer play Ultramarines.

yabbadabba
12-02-2013, 12:10
I appreciate what you are saying Lord Crull, but it sound like you are chopping your hand off to fix a broken nail.

Lord_Crull
12-02-2013, 12:12
I appreciate what you are saying Lord Crull, but it sound like you are chopping your hand off to fix a broken nail.

While I appreciate your concern, if this is some attempt at getting me to play Ultramarines again, it is not going to work.

That said I'm backing out of this thread. I'm tired of repeating myself and the subject matter in general.

Poseidal
12-02-2013, 15:26
I don't know if this is mentioned yet, but the Imperial Fist flawed organs (specifically the sleeping one) was to keep in line with the battle at the farm from Rogue Trader. The team had to rest and sleep at the farm, which a chapter from most other legions would be able to do the phased/semi-rest thing.

wartorngetahroun74
13-02-2013, 16:16
I'm going to go with Soul drinkers.

TheDungen
13-02-2013, 17:04
well crull you could pick up a Um successor there are several with exactly the same colours like the heralds of Ultramar, since there is little written of them, how they view the codex is then up to you.