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Eyrenthaal
02-02-2013, 06:00
With any scatter dice warmachine you run the risk that it ends up in your own unit or in a cc.

However, with the dd's redirect its possible to steer it into a combat.

Now, the question is; is it legal to do so?

To clarify. I'm aiming for something else entirely to begin with, the scatter brings it near an enemy unit in cc. If it would have hit that unit it would have been legal. Now I get the possibility to redirect and it's possible to hit the unit. Is it still legal?

Regards
Rob

Blkc57
02-02-2013, 06:14
I believe the redirect rule is Part of the scatter so, technically it is still a scatter and can in fact go into combat.

hiredgoonthug
06-02-2013, 03:26
I agree and encourage this.

Artinam
06-02-2013, 08:50
It doesn't seem covered by the rules, but normally you cannot target shooting into close combat unless specifically stated.

For me the redirect is something you can do after you determined the scatter.

AMWOOD co
07-02-2013, 16:39
I think it is a matter of possibilities. It is possible that a shot can scatter to the middle of a large unit which is in combat, and thus the redirect may result in having no way out of this possibility. So, instead of stating that this possibility (and, let's face it, eventuality) is an exception, they said nothing.

Why? Beats me, but the best guess is that the normal restrictions for targetting are… slackened. You know the drill by now, talk with your opponent/organiser about this.

Eyrenthaal
11-02-2013, 11:50
The way we currently play it, waiting for the wisdom of the Internet, is that if what I proposed above happens then sure I can do it. But I'm not allowed to shot close to a fight and ohh, can I hit that, muahaha..

Seems fair to all concerned, though it would be nice to get a true answer..

Rob

Malorian
11-02-2013, 19:56
There's nothing stopping it.

@allmyownbattles
17-09-2013, 18:05
If you are allowed to redirect and hit combat would the attacks be direct against just the unit hit or are they randomised across all the units in the melee? Or are doom divers counted as template weapons?

Avian
17-09-2013, 18:11
You hit what you hit.

@allmyownbattles
17-09-2013, 21:58
Cool, cheers. I just questioned it as I was reading that skaven shooting into a combat involving slaves need to randomise hits.

outbreak
17-09-2013, 22:22
Personally think it's only legal if your originally scatter lands in a unit in combat and your redirect is too short to make it out of that unit, if your scatter lands next to a unit in combat, then you redirect into that unit I think your targetting a combat unit and to me it's either illegal or not playing in the spirit of the game

skyfi
17-09-2013, 22:33
It's a flapping suicidal goblin, if rocks could pick a juicy target in combat to flap over to, I reckon they would. I see no issue with it myself fluffwise or rules wise

dementian
18-09-2013, 00:51
Cool, cheers. I just questioned it as I was reading that skaven shooting into a combat involving slaves need to randomise hits.

Skaven shooting into slaves don't have to randomize anymore. It is only when the globadiers attack that hits are randomized.

FatTrucker
18-09-2013, 06:20
I didn't know that. I thought it was just templates that hit what they hit but ordinary shooting was still randomised between models in combat?

Re the Doomdiver, technically I would say its against the rules to redirect into combat as you aren't allowed to actively target combat unless specifically stated in a models special rules. Scatter is random and doesn't count, redirecting is targeting. Although if you scatter into combat you aren't obliged to redirect to avoid it.

Lord Solar Plexus
18-09-2013, 10:27
There's nothing stopping it.

:eek:

And is there anything allowing it?

skyfi
18-09-2013, 12:51
:eek:

And is there anything allowing it?

Scattering stones can. Redirect is a sub function if scatter, or would you classify it as something else entirely? It's a semi controlled scatter, right? Or how I see it at least, again, I don't see this as foul play or anything of the like.

FatTrucker
18-09-2013, 14:11
Scatter is random and doesn't have a target. Redirecting actively requires the player to direct it. Personally I would say its dubious at best.

That said there are a number of mechanics that just require a nominated direction and dice roll for range that are allowed to hit combat (Skaven Doomrocket and Cracks Call to name two), so possibly not strictly illegal but nevertheless a redirect is not random scatter its actively directed. The debate is wether its classified as targeting or just nominating a direction.

skyfi
18-09-2013, 15:33
Scatter is random and doesn't have a target. Redirecting actively requires the player to direct it. Personally I would say its dubious at best.

That said there are a number of mechanics that just require a nominated direction and dice roll for range that are allowed to hit combat (Skaven Doomrocket and Cracks Call to name two), so possibly not strictly illegal but nevertheless a redirect is not random scatter its actively directed. The debate is wether its classified as targeting or just nominating a direction.

the two mechanics that popped up in my mind were fanatics and mangler squigs. As you said in first sentence though, redirecting requires the player to direct it. not target anything, from my understanding at least. I don't consider it dubious at all... I feel like the O&G book has 2 examples written into it already where you can pick a direction towards a unit in combat in hopes of doing damage to it (mangler/fanatic)... and FAQ has specified/allowed gaze of mork to do the same... So to me imho, seems like O&G are geared to have some capability to have disregard for their own units similiar to skaven, inherently in the rules. (the dinner dinner rule for colossal squigs come to mind, as they will fight anything they come into combat with... also coming to mind is the too pumped up rule from pump wagons inflicting impact hits on friendly units)

idk, I haven't been running doom divers for a couple months but I haven't ever thought my opponent was dubious for directing into my combats, I just thought it was perfectly acceptable interpretation of rules that imho worked with other point a direction type rules in the army book.

Imperator64
18-09-2013, 17:24
You can't target models in combat but this isn't the targeting bit. I'd say you can do it in the same way skaven can use cracks call, doomrocket, scorch, doomwheels etc

Eyrenthaal
25-09-2013, 07:04
Haven't been looking into this thread for quite some time.. Well it's still dubious if its okay or not according to Internet wisdom. In the spirit of the game I still don't aim for it but if the opportunity presents itself.. It does seem like the goblin way to do it.. :)

Yowzo
27-09-2013, 10:01
Haven't been looking into this thread for quite some time.. Well it's still dubious if its okay or not according to Internet wisdom. In the spirit of the game I still don't aim for it but if the opportunity presents itself.. It does seem like the goblin way to do it.. :)

We've always played it like it's part of the scatter and thus you can put it wherever you like.

ETC explicitly forbids it, though.

ARabidNun
27-09-2013, 14:27
Haven't been looking into this thread for quite some time.. Well it's still dubious if its okay or not according to Internet wisdom. In the spirit of the game I still don't aim for it but if the opportunity presents itself.. It does seem like the goblin way to do it.. :)
Well put. I support the idea that if someone is trying to abuse the rule to "sneak" a hit into a unit in combat I will be more opposed to it, but I feel that it is well within the fluff of the army that if it should by some bad luck, venture close to said unit and you can not hit your intended target, then yes, the goblin will try its hardest to hit something squishy, as opposed to open ground, senseless suicide.

Loriel
04-10-2013, 23:24
This question has aroused quite a few nerd rage battles in my local gaming group

RAW sense: Lets consider RAW first and examine the rules

BRB page 39 Shooting in to combat

Models are not permitted to shoot at enemies that are engaged in close combat, for the simple reason that there's too much danger of hitting a friend! ... ... the key word here is 'accidentally'- you cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit

BRB page 84 Firing a stone thrower

The template cannot be placed over friendly models, or enemy models from a unit that is engaged in combat


Orcs and Goblins Armybook 8th page 48 Doom Diver Catapult

... However, no template is used. Instead, place the flying Doom Diver Goblin model on the target point

Orc and Goblins Errata / Faq 8th v.1.2
Q: Are units moved over during a flying Doom Diver Goblinís
optional D6" movement hit? (p48)
A: No, only units under the base once the Goblin has reached
its final location are hit.

So there is few ways how O&G goblin players tackle RAW to their advantage.
- First is that in RAW it doesn't use template and therefore can be placed anywhere. Well that general shooting restriction kicks in.
- So one way is to put the target point just near the touching the edge of engaged enemy. Then after fire is shot some might argue that RAW it is shot and now it is something else, than shooting...
- If goblin would scatter inside unit it is optional to use redirecting.

There is perhaps little provoke agenda here (I admit that this really agitates me especially since my Silver Helms have been can opened so many times with doom diver) and that shouldn't be part of RAW, since RAW should be objective perception of written rules.

The only way in RAW that every rule is satisfied is that first of all doom diver would scatter on the middle of the unit and then after redirecting hit there isn't any way to get off them. That would satisfy accidently hitting own units / enemies in cc.

There is one nuance in the doom diver rules which sometimes might get overlooked. Doom Diver redirect moves D6 inches, not up to D6. That alone makes it more bearable against lonely models, since if ppl plays it up to it effectively means D6 radius template and almost always hitting. Too bad it written so that you first roll the distance then choose the direction.

---------------------------------

Fluff sense: It is a suicide goblin... what else there is to say?

My brother had a great fluffy thinking here that, when doom diver catapult fires it aim is deliberately off so they wouldn't hit own troops. Then when the goblin on flight tries to aim he has better chance to not hit own forces while striking in the middle of enemy lines

RAI sense: I think that if they really intended that goblins would have suicide abilities or expandable rules as Skaven Slaves, they would have same rule. When it comes to me they should have, and it baffles me that they doesn't have such rules, considering fanatics / doom diver fluff. IMO this is GW way to keep balance in game. Thus intention behind this ruling is not fluff but game mechanics.

In my local group we have made two house rules concerning doom divers / stone throwers (and actually every other templates) that there has to be theoretical chance that it could hit eligible enemy target. So in short we allow placing a template next to close combat and hope for scatter, but deny it if scatter couldn't hit any enemy unit not engaged in CC. This is imo best way to follow the rule "not accidently hitting in combat / over own units". Second rule is that doom diver can be redirected in to combat.