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Lance Tankmen
02-02-2013, 06:08
What are your guys thoughts on these? personally i thought they looked better than outriders. My friend plays empire and bought the box and at first wanted outriders, i spoke out against them as they were just mounted handgunners. He eventually agreed and now runs 5 pistoliers with mus and champion with repeater brace of pistols. Since then they've preformed really well, seeing as how they can reform as they march being fast cav, can march and shoot, quick to fire and suffer no -1 to hit for moving. With 8 shots often hitting on 5's and 4 shots hitting on 4's S4 AP they have killed off 5-6 infantry a turn, caused panic in small units and destoryed enemy chaff. yet i dont see them in many lists posted so maybe they arent very tactical. Is there a reason they arent widely used?

Blkc57
02-02-2013, 06:22
Because they have to get within 6 inches to be of any effect. Outriders can shoot turn one and with vanguard usually hit their target with 4's where as hand gunners can't do that till the enemy closes within 12 usually around turn 2 or even 3. Overall though I'm not fond of either unit as there are far better choices for specials like Demi Gryphs or more cannons

snottlebocket
02-02-2013, 08:38
Outriders are also handgunners who manage to fit a whole lot of shots on a 12.5 centimeter frontage. Something that can be quite useful. They do require finesse though, once you start moving them around a lot any advantage they had is lost.

Wesser
02-02-2013, 08:46
Because they hit on a 6 if not within 6 inches, and because they can no longer use their pistols in CC.

Getting within 6 inches to shoot something is usually a tall order because other chaff usually outfight them while being cheaper.

It is possible to make them work, but they got a lot of limitations and are very expensive for what they do.

I'm not certain how you get to 4 shots hitting on 4s either since pistoliers can never get that....

Tuttivillus
02-02-2013, 12:32
I'm not certain how you get to 4 shots hitting on 4s either since pistoliers can never get that....

Marksman with repeater pistol. ;) To OP, I also use them in the same configuration. I admit that they are pricey, but hey, I love the models and fluff.

Dman83
18-02-2013, 02:46
I have to agree about Outriders. I started using them recently and their performance exceeded my expectations. Seriously I just vanguard them out there and let the sparks fly. Admittedly I've had some hella lucky dice rolls lately but still...
I continue to take pistoliers from time to time as they still are useful for disrupting my oppenent, but if I had to choose I think I'd pick outrides 9 times outta ten

Ullis
18-02-2013, 10:28
It really is a trade off between the potential hitting power of the Outriders and the maneuverability of the Pistoliers. Generally, I bring Pistoliers as they are cheaper and can move and shoot. When you get them in behind the enemy's lines, the opponent will not bother trying to deal with them making it no problem getting them into short range. Here they can be reasonably effective at whittling down the enemy units and/or taking out war machines. Outriders can hit really hard, but are a little more difficult to use since they can only move or shoot, which does really limit them as fast cavalry.

They each fill the same role, but in slightly different ways and depending on your play style each has their benefits.

Krokz
18-02-2013, 18:57
I used pistoliers in recent tournament (placed 2nd) and they performed well. Personally I do not like outriders due to their 5+ armour. Enemy always has some archers or something S4 at range. They die so fast since there is nothing else to shoot in Empire army. Everything else has 1+ armour (cavalry) or numbers (infantry). Pistoliers on the other hand can hide behind your 1+ AS units or behind terrain. Move out and clear chaff, redirect big block etc.
I use them with champion and Repeater pistol so they can actually kill some chaff. If your pistoliers are alive at the end of the game you did something wrong. They are excellent at moving 1" away from enemy on turn 1. Shooting, recieving a charge with stand and shoot to kill a model or two again. This way you make sure you get a charge in your second turn. Chaff dictates the game and pistoliers are the best we have. People just don't know that their role is to die for a greater cause. Because if you look at them from math-hammer direction then they are surely a waste of points.

Chaos Wombat
19-02-2013, 07:46
I started using Pistoliers recently & ive got to say there brilliant.Just as chaff or annoyance units.
Our group went through a phase recently of moving important characters out of their units to get an important spell off or move to another unit,they tend not to do that anymore when you have 2 units of 5 pistoliers a few inches away.

VampireOrcElf
07-03-2013, 07:07
i used pistoliers in recent tournament (placed 2nd) and they performed well. Personally i do not like outriders due to their 5+ armour. Enemy always has some archers or something s4 at range. They die so fast since there is nothing else to shoot in empire army. Everything else has 1+ armour (cavalry) or numbers (infantry). Pistoliers on the other hand can hide behind your 1+ as units or behind terrain. Move out and clear chaff, redirect big block etc.
I use them with champion and repeater pistol so they can actually kill some chaff. If your pistoliers are alive at the end of the game you did something wrong. They are excellent at moving 1" away from enemy on turn 1. Shooting, recieving a charge with stand and shoot to kill a model or two again. This way you make sure you get a charge in your second turn. Chaff dictates the game and pistoliers are the best we have. People just don't know that their role is to die for a greater cause. Because if you look at them from math-hammer direction then they are surely a waste of points.

lol what?!?!

Lord Solar Plexus
07-03-2013, 09:42
It is a dramatic misconception to say that Pistoliers are bad because they have no effect outside of 6" or do not kill stuff. A Hurri does not kill stuff and combat State Troops have to be even closer than 6". It's amazing how everyone says Empire is synonymous with synergy and combined arms and unit cooperation and then people diss Pistoliers.

Pistoliers are first and foremost light cavalry and should be used with the classic roles of LC in mind, that is to run rings around them, to draw units out of position with a feigned flight, run interference, double-flee, double-charge fleeing units off the table, all this kind of stuff. Archers fill some of those roles but not all, and not to the same degree. They are not less powerful than other specials. They're less straightforward "pick target and kill". The importance of these roles cannot be grasped with mathhammer which only deals with set numbers.

Outriders fill a completely different role. They are NOT light cavalry. Okay, they are de iure but not de facto when you're looking at damage output and nothing else. In that case, don't use either, get a HBVG. Outriders can be used as LC but the drawback is that they can only ever fulfill one role. Pistoliers can plink off wounds while doing what LC is there for.

Having said this, I've also used hybrid "Pistolriders", ie. Outriders + Champ with repeater pistol in smaller games to combine all functions and be able to use the one I needed most. They once ended up getting out of the charge arc of Swordmasters for a couple of turns while killing 2-3 all day long.

Francis
07-03-2013, 11:47
In short, Pistoliers are light cav. Outriders are Dragoons, that is mounted infantry. Use them in their historical roles and they will work out for you.

BattleofLund
07-03-2013, 14:27
What are your guys thoughts on these?

I think they're a freaking menace! At least with my WoC, because then I don't have a non-painful way to counter them. Sure magic works, but then I'm not softening up the Steam Tank or assassinating Leadership. The only other thing I've got is charging them, quite possibly getting shot to death on the way in.

On the other hand Dark Elves simply pincushion them and move on. Dear Deities of the Internets, let Dark Elves suffer the fate of not being updated for many years to come!

mostlyharmless
07-03-2013, 15:42
I love pistoliers, and I use them quite often. Yes, there are more killy options for specials, but the pistoliers can get enemy units into position to be obliterated by our killy specials. Example: you feign flight with your pistoliers, exposing the enemy flank to your artillery.

DrMooreFlava
07-03-2013, 20:22
I think they're a freaking menace! At least with my WoC, because then I don't have a non-painful way to counter them. Sure magic works, but then I'm not softening up the Steam Tank or assassinating Leadership. The only other thing I've got is charging them, quite possibly getting shot to death on the way in.

On the other hand Dark Elves simply pincushion them and move on. Dear Deities of the Internets, let Dark Elves suffer the fate of not being updated for many years to come!

I disagree! update DE now so they aren't OP and under-costed! Sooo sick of double hydra lists...

Regarding pistoliers, LSP hit it on the button. Use them appropriately. I'd also caution players not to waste too many points on them; they are quite fragile.

BattleofLund
07-03-2013, 21:05
I disagree! update DE now so they aren't OP and under-costed!

That's fair, really. But I dread what drekkification might come, to be honest.

Souppilgrim
13-03-2013, 05:35
Loved pistoliers in 7th, hate them now. None of the jobs that they used to do work as well now. Less effective on every level and they were only priced fair for 7th...overpriced for 8th.

I use outsiders almost every game. 5x2 formation is 30 shots per turn. They are so maneuverable and easy to deploy well (Vanguard). After the first couple of turns they can play points denial, if chased, continue to pew pew if not. I have yet to give up the points for them in a game yet.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-03-2013, 05:44
30 shots...you say that as if it was somehow remarkable. What do those Outriders do, kill some models for two turns? I find their damage potential to be lacking, too, and they cannot do what Light Cavalry is supposed to.

Souppilgrim
13-03-2013, 06:15
Yes, they kill models for a few turns. They make elite enemy units shrink to killable size, they delete chaff and cut hordes into blocks that will lose steadfast before yours do. After that they don't give up their points like every other shooting unit in the empire army does.

I agree that they don't fill the light cav role the same way... But no light cav unit really does any more

Lord Solar Plexus
13-03-2013, 07:46
Hmm, that's not quite my experience. I mean I can imagine how scary they are against something like Khorne Warriors but I've always suspected that those were invented for Outrider target practice only. They're good against White Lions but with HE magic, probably dead from a magic missile and some archers pretty fast, and the same goes for DE. Losing steadfast usually doesn't matter for hordes, they're geared to win and probably wouldn't be steadfast to start with. When it comes to chaff, I admit they will mince it but isn't that often overkill? Pistoliers can still handle ratdarts, archers and even other light cavalry.

The problem I see here is that one one hand you're causing some casualties to make the fights easier but on the other hand your units aren't that good at fighting. That's 210+ points not going towards your ranks, +1 to hit, ward prayer, detachment, warmachines or whatnot.

Lastly, I'm not saying you're wrong or your experience irrelevant.