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inq.serge
02-02-2013, 08:35
[Editors note: Hi, I will keep an up to date summary in the first few posts, with both unit and army specific tactics, but they will not pop up in an instance, instead they will grow as more and more tactics are found by the posters. I will start Today with a tiny summary, like a template, and let it grow, to become a bit like the "Tactica:Imperium"-Imperial Guard Tactics Handbook / Serge.]

[Also, feel free to question anything and everything I write, let the debate help us find the answers, and if you have a short article on a certain unit/item/spell/tactic/mathhammering, feel free to PM me and I'll include it]

Shrine of Glory:
Warriors of Chaos Tactica.
8th Edition WFB/ 8th Edition Woc Armybook.

Army Wide:

Marks of Chaos.
With exception of the Nurlic mark, the marks are pretty much the same.
Well, Except that they're a points per model upgrade now.
This will make all the khornate players happy, since the Mark of Khorne got cheaper in small units. While Mark of Slaanesh is kind of the same price, but only for the smallest units.

Eye of The Gods
aka EOTG

The EOTG now gives permanent cumulative stat-increases, to Almost all characters and champs.
And it gives 'em it even if you defeat a champion in a challenge.
The last part might seem good, but when you have a model that causes 3 or more st5 attacks, you don't want to waste it on a cheap T3 W1 champ when the unit is steadfast. Sure, A stat increase and overkill is good, but it doesn't nullify steadfast, and breaking the unit is more important. However, If steadfast isn't an issue, overkill and a stat increase is Awesome. Remember to check if your opponent has any champs at the start of the game, and act accordingly.

With the EOTG, you can get you champs turned into spawns, which is fun, or DPs, which is funnier, unless it's your lords/heroes who do that. Yes, you get a DP, but, your opponent gets the VP from the character. (The newly created critter gives nothing for being killed however). All through Champions give also VP, they are to insignificant to count since the whole unit must be destroyed before any VP is awarded.

Chaos Magic

This edition, (at least for the slaaneshi and the nurglic lore), it's all about combos: Spell combos, Augments, Hexes. And some of them are pretty nasty.

However, a general warning; Do not expect to cast all your spells, You won't have enough PD, and even if you do, your opponent will dispel most of your tactical spells.

Lore Of Slaanesh

This is our better lore, one full of finesse and malice, unfortunately, it requires skill, not only from the player, but also from our sorcerers. But our non-tzeentchian spellcasters have always been on par with those of other armies, which really annoying, since everything we have is above average (well, except non-artillery shooting).

Lore attribute: Bliss in Torment
It might look like an awesome offensive power that will turn your sorcerer into a mighty duellist, but it isn't. First; You'll rarely cause enough wounds to get an awesome benefit, secondly, even if you do, it lasts only 'til your next magic phase. And since there's only one spell that can cause damage in combat, you're stuck with a defensive skill, and not a good one. However, A DP might get some benefit from it if you go for the Choir-bomb.

Signature: Lash of Slaanesh
It's OK-ish, but I doubt you'd want to trade any spell for it.

1 Acquiescence
Godsend. It's simply godsend. Sure, it might seem like crap; ASL? We're mostly I5, we don't care about ASL! and: Random Movement? Big [profanity] Deal! But lo! It's actually awesome in disguise: 1: It has a low casting value. 2: It has a good range, and boosted, it hits from across the table. 3: Your opponent can't defend himself other than dispelling it. 4: ASL will benefit our juggers greatly, since they are I1 and there ARE I2 units (I.E:mournfangs) that might kill a couple juggs. And the best: 5: Who suffers from Random Movement the most? Move-or-fire Warmachines! That's Who suffers! Remember; Random Movement is compulsory movement.
And a sorceress with a steed of slaanesh has M10 + Vanguard; There is no such thing as out of range.

Also: This spell is priceless for an all-cav army, since it can pull units out of buildings. Remember that! You will need to know that.

However, It's a High priority to dispel for anyone with important Warmachines.


2 Pavane of Slaanesh
Probably the weakest slaaneshi spell, but even it has it's use. And only one use that is: Killing Champions. You do not want to waste the combat potential of your champs on other champs, or have their champs hinder you from challenges! A hysterical Juggerchamp can at most cause 10 wounds against infantry. I bet you'd rather remove a rank or 2 of infantry than a single champ; Sure, overkill's good, but it doesn't nullify steadfast.

3 Hysterical Frenzy
Oh, Slaanesh! Throw it on a big unit of Juggerknights. Or Khornate warriors. It's that simple. A horde of 30 Khornate warriors with XHW will get 70 St4 WS5 I5 attacks. We need it. Grinding hordes have long been our weakness, this spell gives us the boost we needed. A unit of 6 juggerknigth lancers will get 33-48 st6 attacks (+stomps) (depending on formation and base-contact) with this spell. Do I need to explain how awesome that is?! Another fun thing is if your opponent has a single character and no champs in a unit, and you want him dead; Cast it on him and he can't refuse a challenge. NOTE: ItP no longer stops characters from declining challenges, however, it stops units from fleeing. Also, it allows you to frenzy-bait your opponents.

4 Slicing Shards
Stand alone? Slightly better than meh. D6 hits, 2d6 if your lucky. Good but not all that. If you cast phantasmagoria on same unit, then it's better. Add in treason of tzeentch, for more power. And Doom and Darkness if you want it to shine. The more spells you invest in the attack, the better it gets, but can you afford it, or rather, is it worth it? NO, No it isn't. However, Phantasmagoria + Slicing shards could easily destroy an unit of zombies or skeletons outside of their General-bubble with ease. (same goes for other low LD unit)

5 Phantasmagoria
Great in combo with slicing shards, other than that, and annoying units with stupidity, it's quite situational, only useful when you really need your opponent to fail that LD test, which isn't that usual. (With the other spells, there usually won't be anything left in combat to roll a break test without a -30 Ld modifier)

6 Cacophonic Choir
Same as acquiescence, except that it causes damage. And it's a hex, so you can still damage units in CC. But it's not that deadly, sure, with some luck it CAN destroy a unit of Mournfangs or Juggerknights or a steamtank, But most likely it WON'T. The boosted version is quite awesome, and with a sorceress (lady) on steed, you could, on turn one, move to the middle of your opponents deployment zone, and cast it on all units within 12", hurting them and giving them random movement, a so called Choir-bomb. Problem is, the boosted version has a sky high casting value, so it's one hell of a gamble to do that. A DP will love this spell, especially if he's in combat and manages to get the boosted one through, as it will work great with his lore Attribute.

Lore of Nurgle
The other of our better lores, this one is however more "straight forward".

Lore attribute: Bloated with disease
This one is marvellous with DPs. However, this one only adds to the casters stats, not the mounts, so a caster on a palanquin will only start benefit from the second T increase and third W increase.

Signature: Stream of Corruption
A Template at random distance. It depends on luck more than on positioning. Sure, a Flying DP can place one well, but it could easily overshoot. Still fun against hordes.

1 Miasma of Pestilence
Meh, unless you boost it, and you should boost it, since boosted, it's great. Kinda waste on juggerknights and such whom already hit on 3+ and wound on 2+, but on other units, it's awesome.

2 Blades of Putrefaction
Very fun with units who have lots of attacks and or poison. I.E: Lord with slime and +3attack sword. Might work well with ASF Hellstriders, whose mounts already have poison, or one of those hysterical xhw Khornate units. Kinda waste on Skullcruchers since their hits will most likely wound on 2+ anyway.

3 Curse of the Leper
This one's great. +d3T for you, or -d3T for your opponent. Quite straight forward on what it does. (T7 Skullcrushers Anyone?)

4 Rancid Visitations
A lot like Slicing Shards, but stronger, and against T. With Curse of The Leper, It's not improbable to get 5d6 hits, without, it's like 1d6 hits. Good but not overkill.

5 Fleshy Abundance
Great for all your units, especially your trolls. A regen.save is quite straight forward in what it does.

6 Plague Wind

Lore of Tzeentch

And I always tough Tzeentch would be the best one :( .
The Tzeentchian lore makes you a magic-missile battery, but not a powerhouse.

Lore Attribute: Boon of magic
You get up to one dice back from every spell you cast, or 2+ for every you miscast. More of a consolation prize than a boon.

Signature: Blue fire
Straight forward damage spell, but with warpflame.

1 Treason
Fun if you want to annoy units with stupidity or undeath, otherwise, not the best LD-debuff spell out there.

2 Pink fire
Also a straight forward damage spell, also with warpflame.

3 Bolt of Change
Yet an other straight forward damage spell, Again with warpflame.

4 Glean magic
Probably the pearl of the lore. You might get some awesome spells (I:E: Time Warp or the lore of life healing spell), but the best part is, you could get a damaging spell without Warpflame.

5 Firestorm
Do you like Straight forward damage spells, well this lore would be for you if it weren't for the warflame.

6 Infernal gateway
Hopefully, people are still afraid of it. Scaring people is half its use. The other use is a straight forward damage spell, but with warpflame, unless you roll good and destroy the entire unit, in which case you won't need to bother about warpflame.

Note on Warpflame
Warpflame is not flaming. Thus it's a gamble, it either cause a few wounds, or it gives regen, and the gain of having a regen is well worth the risk of suffering a couple of wounds. Warpflame is bad, and/but it makes you forced to destroy the targeted unit in a single go to not risk giving them a regen.

Lore of Fire
Available on unmarked spellcasters.
Pretty much direct damage.

Lore Attribute: Kindleflame
Good if you're trying to kill of a single unit with multiple spells, otherwise it's kinda wasted.

Signature spell: Fireball
The signature magic missile

1:Fire-cloak
Doesn't seem like much, but with its low casting value, it can be quite a good mage-hunter deterrent, maybe even giving a boost to horde-grinding.

2: Flaming Sword of Rhuin
Awesome on hellstriders, more so on that khornate horde with 70 attacks.

3: Burning Head
Weakish (st4) direct damage spell with possibility for panic. Good in combo with Ld-Debuff spells, but otherwise, not all that.

4: Piercing Bolts
Or, How to annoy ranked units. Ordinary damage spell, but boosted fireball will cause more damage for the same casting value against most units.

5: Flame Cage
Initially, the d6 st4 hits are not so damaging. It can make units not move, which is good, but it can make 1 st4 hit/model, which is fabulous against hordes, If they move. If. Cast Acquiescence on the same unit and they'll have to move. Good anti-horde combo that. (C'mon, you'd love to cause 50 hits on a horde).

6: Flame Storm
A template. As straight forward as it could be.

Lore of Metal
An alternative to Lore of tzeentch, and this lore has those flaming spells to mop up this little 6+ saves warpflame left here and there.

Attribute: Metalshifting
Well, not much of an attribute as a way to actually damaging you opponents.

Signature: Searing Doom
Magic missile, obviously good against armoured units

1: Plague of Rust
Lover your opponents armour, quite Ok, but cast this AFTER casting damaging lore of metal spells.

2: Enchanted Blades
Obviously great for everything with lots of attacks, I.E: Khornate 70 attack horde or big units of juggerknights. No, seriously, great spell.

3: Glittering Robe
Great for warriors without shields, for hellstriders and, well, everything but knights and juggerknights.

4: Golden Hounds
Sniper spell, not the greatest, but can do.

5: Transmutation of Lead
We're great in cc anyway, so thisone's best against things that shoot a lot, like leadbelchers or huge units of handgunners.

6: Final transmutation
Not so killy for a killy spell. Can do, but you could find better spells.

Lore of Death
Up to compete against lore of nurgle.
Greater in combo with other spellcasters, and fantastic for, not only character sniping, but also monsterhunting.

Attribute: Life Leaching
This is a good one if you have multiple wizards. With some spells in this lore, your spellcasting can basically be free.

Signature Spell: Spirit leach
Good sniping spell, great against monsters. Shame we have such a low Ld.

1: Aspect of the Dreadknight
As if we do not have fear in abundance already

2: Caress
Magehunting anyone?

3: Soulblight
Great in combo with Caress, Curse of the Leper and Rancid Visitations. Good spell all in all.

4: Doom and Darkness
The legendary, original, Ld-debuff number 1. There are lots of things to do with it; Terror, panic, Hellcannons, slicing shards, anything, everything!

5: Bjuna
When combined with Curse of the Leper or Soulblight, it's probably one of the greatest monster-slaying spell out there. You got a Bloodthirster? Not any more. Standalone, quite Ok. At least against characters. especially elf characters.

6: Purple Sun
Bet you've already heard about it.

Lore of Shadows
A mighty lore, only drawback is that it has to compete with lore of slaanesh.
The question is; Do you like weakening your opponents stats, or do you like messing with your opponents movement/battleline?

Attribute: Smoke and Mirrors
Quite Ok, especially if you like chariots. Or have a good bait and switch tactic.

Signature Spell: Mystifying Miasma.
The must have spell for a destructive Lore of shadow caster.

1: Steed of Shadows
Fantastic if you want to move your gorebeast or warshrine into the combat zone, and thus enabling a second turn charge from your gorebeast.

2: Enfeebeling
Good if you want to grind something, or charge a high st unit.

3: Withering
Alot like Curse of the leper, look it up.

4: Penumbral Pendulum
Good spell, if you cast Mystifying Miasma first.

5: Pit of Shades
The old classic; Cast Mystifying Miasma and let your opponents disappear. Great against MI.

6: Mindrazor
70 st 8 attacks? Yes please. It's a great buff, especially for xhw-units. High casting value, but still.

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 08:35
Reserved post

Units:

Core:
We are spoiled with Core Choices, We've got: Chaff Warbeasts, Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, "Fast" Infantry, Monstrous Infantry (with Throgg), Light Cavalry and Chariots.

Chaos Warriors

-Summary
Our backbone, our most basic unit. They can do anvil, they can do grinder, they can do hammer. What more can you ask from them?

GW is usually only good for MoN, otherwise Halberds are the to go choice.

-Builds

Usually, unit sizes above 18 are quite unnecessary in games under 3k.

* The Meat-grinder: Full com, MoK, XHW, 30x. Horde formation. Expensive unit, but causes 60 (70 when hysteric) st4 attacks.

-Tactics

Warhounds

-Summary
They are pretty much unchanged. Well, except that they now count toward the Core Requirement, and have a new option; Vanguard. For a increase by one third of their price, they can get the vanguard move; It's a good place to spend some points if you must, and a must if you play an all Cavalry army, but otherwise, you might live without it.

-Builds:
* The Chaff: 5 Warhounds

* The Chaff for All-Cav armies: 5 Warhounds, Vanguard


*Poison Horde: 30 Warhounds, Poison. (maybe vanguard)
The warhound horde. Not a stand alone unit, but it is the fastest horde you can get for a low pts cost, and the fun part is when you combine them with a Nurglic AND a Slaaneshi spellcaster.

-Tactics

*For the Poison horde build: If you cast hysterical frenzy And the Nurglic poison spell, you'll have a m7 horde, with 40 attacks, and poisons on to hit rolls of 5+, that's around 13,3 auto-wounds. Problem is that they'll lose around 1-2 models each turn, but up to 6 or as low as non if you're lucky/unlucky. (if you want to keep the frenzy that is). It's a very situational unit that relies on those spells, and the points are better spent elsewhere. But it could be used for fun.

Marauders

-Summary
Got a lot more expensive this edition, and thus too expensive for all marauder armies to be competative. A unit with Festus seems to be popular however.

-Builds
-Tactics

Marauder Horsemen

-Summary
Our horsemen. On average, cheaper than previous ed. They did however "loose" the LA.

All trough the throwing axes seem tempting, Javs are superior. 5 attacks won't do much in itself, but it will harass, and if you want to harass, you need to be able to run away, and with javelins, you have a bigger chance to escape.

MoS is quite standard for these, you don't need to be brave to flee, only to rally and not screw up the battle-plan. However, MoK with flails will bring the most st5 attacks per point (for cavalry).

-Builds

* Slaaneshi (Standard) Horsemen (The "Perfect" Fast Cav): Javelins, Flails, MoS, Mus. 5x.

* Khornate (standard) Horsemen (Most bang for the buck): Flail, MoK, 6x.

-Tactics

* Harass things: Move in front of units, shoot them, run when they charge. Repeat 'til you have a unit that can charge the harassed unit available. Just don't get too close.

* Do NOT leave your Khornate Horsemen within charge range of important enemy hard-hitters, especially when your horsemen are close to your army, since Khornate horsemen can't flee. In fact, not being able to flee is the biggest weakness of Khornate Standard horsemen.

* Do not place your horsemen too close to other units weak units that risk to be charged, as they can't flee when overrun into.

Chaos Chariot
Aka Chariot

-Summary
Our chariot. Now core. Good with Khorne.


-Builds

* Khornate Chariot: Chariot, MoK

-Tactics
* It's not cavalry, don't expect it to be cavalry. It's more like an infantry unit with increased charge range.

* It's a support unit; Flank charge stuff your blocks charge.

* You can go all chariot. Sure, you'll suck at terrain/siege, but otherwise, one of the most powerful lists in the game.

Forsaken

-Summary

Previous ed., the forsaken where known as our worst unit.
Now they're core, and gotten chaos armour. And an other random table.

Random tables aside, these guys are basicaly warriors, but more expensive. And slightly faster.

It's easy to compare them to khornate xhw-warriors, who are better at everything but Movement, but, these guys aren't just warriors, they have something down their sleeve: Unit size 5+.
You see, unlike warriors, these guys can come in units of 5 or 6. (if you where thinking of taking 10+, you might as well take warriors).

In those small sizes, combined with m6 and swiftstride from MoS, they suddenly are heavy warhounds, expensive and slow, but still heavy and resilient warhounds.

Sure, they won't impress with m6 swiftstride, but 6 of them cause 12-24 st4 attacks with random bonus. And they're T4 4+, so they can, unlike warhouds, horsemen and hellstriders, charge shooty things and expect to acctually have enough models left to fight.

They are expensive however; 6 of them with MoS cost as much as 4 UNITS of warhounds. Question is, which would you prefer to send at a shooty unit.

-Builds

*Runners: 5-6 forsaken, MoS

-Tactics

* Keep them on the sides, and use them for combined charges with chariots or warriors. A flank-charge can break ranks on hordes.

* Charge small shooty units (skinks, shades), Expensive chaff is still chaff, and a couple of these guys might survive and defeat the unit.

Special:

Chosen
-Summary
-Builds
-Tactics

Chaos Knights
aka: Knights

-Summary
The Knights where considered our greatest unit back in 6th and 7th, but now? Cavalry has been weakened by the increase of hordes and all the bonuses to everything but cavalry. All through, compared to other armies, powerful and tough, they suffer from being the Jacks of all trades of the Chaos army. They can do most stuff, but there's always a unit better at it.

You want a unit that can support and grind and take a serious beating? You got the Gorebeast.

You want a small frontage unit that moves fast and strikes hard? You got the Chimera

You want lots of fast st5 attacks from cavalry? Spam Khornate Standard Marauder Horsemen, They're a cheaper source of st5 cavalry, and they're core.

You want brutal knights who are overall awesome? You got Skullcrushers for that. All trough Skullcrushers are Rare and aren't as good against units in buildings.

I'm not saying that they are bad, they are good; they hard and can cause some damage, but there are better specialists. (And skullcrushers)
They can be used if you want lots of knights, but have as many Juggerknights as allowed, or in small games.

Ensorcelled weapons are still a no-brainer, and with EW+ MoK they are basicaly unchanged in price.

-Builds:

*Khornate knights 5x: Knights (5x), Ensorcelled weapons, MoK.
The good old reliable. Now even cheaper.

*Khornate knights 6x: Knights (6x), Ensorcelled weapons, MoK.
Same as usual, both in price and power.

-Tactics:

* While your enemy's distracted by your juggerknights, these guys can sneak around and cause damage on other places.

Hellstriders

-Summary: They are pretty much unchanged.
With marauder horsemen getting cheaper on average, but loosing their armour, it might seem that Hellstriders are just a unit you have to fit your slaaneshi theme. Well, Not completely true.
Hellstriders come in 2 types, Spears (meh) and Scourges (Yay!)

The spear-wielding ones are almost fancy marauder horsemen, who simply move faster and have the potential to get +2 on charge if they wipe out a unit. If.

And then we have the Scourge-wielding ones. Sure, you lose the +1 st on charge, but, you gain ASF. They will mostly hit on re-rollable 3+, and they will hit first.

But the most important thing is to put a character in this unit. The most cost-effective per wound caused is an Ex-champ, MoS; Steed of Slaanesh, Helm of many eyes and Flail. In a unit of 9+ with champ (You don't want to waste 4 st7 ASF attacks on a 1W champ), you suddenly have a great unit. It can move 32" straight ahead in your first movement phase, making it possible to put them behind enemy lines. With their speed and a little help from the champ, you can pick your fights (the ones you can win, obviously), win them, and let the rewards rain.



-Builds:

* Slaaneshi Entourage: 9+ Hellstriders, Scourges, champ. Add a CC-character for Maximal effect [U]at all.

-Tactics:

* A CC-Character is MANDATORY for this unit!

* Unless you have a special plan for them, Deploy them somewhere in the middle of your front-line. That's where fast units work best, as they can easily move to any point on the battlefield from there.

* Since you can move 32" on your first movement phase with this guys, you can easily move behind your enemies front lines, and since you're behind them, they'll have to either ignore you, giving you the opportunity for a rear charge, or wheel towards you, which will make them unable to charge you, and opens up for a rear charges from knights/juggerknights.

* The ironblaster and similar fancy artillery are ideal targets. You can move up close to them fast, and the charge them in your next turn. At most, they [the artillery] will only get one shot before CC, usually at the hellstriders (charmed shield is awesome), if they do so, a pair will die at most (a cheap sacrifice, totally worth it), and if they ignore you, your hellstriders will be at full strength. When in combat, your hero will be able to dent it, whatever it is, and even if you don't insta-break it, the opponent will either have to "abandon" the artillery piece, or send troops to save it, which will distract said troops from deadlier things (Chimeras, Juggerknights, Knights, DPs), increasing your chances for a rear charge or ganging up on what didn't go to save the Artillery.

* Hellstriders are not fancy Marauder Horsemen. They have different uses.

* Hellstriders have a bad time charging units that stand and shoot properly. Cast The Lepers Curse on them to increase their T if you absolutely need to charge a shooty unit.


Chimera

-Summary
We've got a new pet, and it can fly.
This monster is, especially when fully kitted, our most expensive single non-character model.
It's also our most ferocious non-character model, with 6+d3 attacks and d6 stomps, all at st6. That's good. Something that isn't is that it's T5 4W, 4+ AS. Much for most armies, but not for WoC. They're fragile by our standards, and they will attract cannonballs, and a single cannonball has around 50% chance to knock it off the table. Seems like the 4+ regen is mandatory.
Best thing, other than its high number of attacks, is that it flies.
With flying, you can somewhat choose your fights, and chose them wisely, since all through they cause tonnes of pain, and can kill lots of models, they, just like any other monster, aren't that great against hordes and other huge units.

You can give it flame breath, which is great at weakening hordes, especially as the chimera is a flyer, thus capable of positioning the template quite good (up to 25 hits against a huge horde). But only 'cause you flamed a unit doesn't mean that your chimera will be able to mop up the remnants of it.

-Builds

*Standard Chimera: Chimera with Regen.

*Flamer Chimera: Chimera with Regen. and Flame Breath.

-Tactics
* Use the slaaneshi spell Acquiescence to distract cannons from shooting at your chimera.

* Combine the Flamer Chimera with Phantasmagoria and you're likely to see whatever is left of the horde you struck run off the board.

* Works great in tandem with a DP.

Trolls
-Summary
-Builds
-Tactics

Ogres
-Summary
-Builds
-Tactics

Dragon Ogres
Aka Drogers

-Summary
With Skullcrushers, Drogers might seem superfluous, but, Droger do have a niche.

Take four, equip gw, put them in 2x2 formation, hunt monsters (and maybe stanks).

All through, only t4, they are W4! They can take hits before going down in number of attacks, and 12 st7 attacks are quite brutal against high T low W (I.E: Monsters).

-Builds

* 4x Drogers, GW.

-Tactics

* 2x2 formation is quite good for them.

* If you're afraid that something might kill some drogers before they strike, toss Acquiescence on it.



Warshrine
-Summary
They Are now Special. They are also chariots without hitting power now. Also, It's slow. Like one of our slowest units.

They are also resilient, all through not as resilient as they used to be. But you don't always win by taking punches without throwing any.

Biggest change is their "Giver of Glory". It no longer gives one unit a "Remain in Play" EOTG roll, instead, it has a bound spell. The spell is easy to cast, and it will most likely be dispelled, giving your opponent a pyrrhic victory.

The spell itself will give some champs/characters EOTG rolls. Good, but you could use the points spent on the warshrine to buy funnier toys for your champs/Characters.

The warshrine is highly defensive, but distinctly lacking any offensive power.

-Builds

-Tactics

* It's a warSHRINE, not a WARshrine.

* If you really want it in your Cav-army and still benefit from it in the front, Use it as a character mount and cast Steed of Shadows to make it fly.

* Deploy chosen near it, and they may roll 4d6 - 2 dice of your choice on their EOTG-roll.

Gorebeast Chariot
Aka Gorebeast

-Summary
Yet an other new plaything. This time, a chariot strapped to a Mutant

The first thing that hits the eyes is that it's M6. Yes. M6 Chariot. It is slow, very slow.
But, a chariot is not exactly cavalry, it's infantry support. It's better placed next to infantry blocks, and moved side by side until it's within charge range.

The hitting power is great, especially with MoK. It has KB on impact hits, and it can fight quite ok. But that's not the most awesome thing.

It's resilient as few. It can take lots and lots of hits (even better with MoN), without getting hurt, and thus grind down most units.

-Build

The only Option they have is the mark.

-Tactics
* If used as A Character mount, it can be moved early with the Steed of Shadows spell to make it closer to important targets and negate it's slow speed.

* Combine charge with infantry; It's a support unit, not a stand alone CC-Monster. (all through it can keep some units tarpited alone)

Rare:

Hellcannon

-Summary
The hellcannon has long been one of our best units, standing tall in the competition or rare choice Pts. It has increased slightly in cost, and got its movement halved down to 3, and now lets wizards defend themselves from the infamous "miscast"-misfire result, but, it has also gotten a 5+ save and magic attacks.
The hellcannon is still going strong and it will be wise to use at least one, if not two.

-Builds
They have no upgrades, so it's basically one hellcanon x how many you want in your army.

-Tactics

* Do NOT forget that they cause panic!

* Don't worry about small "Warmachine hunter"-units; All through The hellcannon shoots like a stonethrower on steroids, it is a monster, and thus fights like one. In fact, It's one of our more resilient and steadfast monsters, with T6, 5W and Unbreakable.

*All through overall great, they have a weak spot: Killing Monstrous infantry/cavalry/beasts. The centre strike can one shot most monsters, the blast can damage huge units, covering up to 22 models in a 5x5 man unit, but against ogres and such, they will rarely kill more than one model, if any at all that is.

* The Hellcannon is great, but it's not insta-win. It scatters, and if you're unlucky, it might kill nothing at all during a whole game.

Skullchruschers
aka Juggerknights

-Summary
Our new knights. They hit hard. They are hard. They win hard.
What not to say, they can have 6 (8) st6 attacks on the charge, and they have a st5 stomp. Each.
They are the Chosen Chaos Knight we've always wanted.
Also, they're considered our best unit by most players.

Lance vs EW

Which should you take? The lance is cheaper and has a higher St, but the EWs St bonus lasts all the rounds.

Basically; Lances are more offensive. A hysterical unit of 6 with lances will easily cause 20 wounds. Against most things, There won't be a second round, so the duration of the St bonus doesn't matter.

However, The EW are better if you take a charge. (which is odd for a unit whose goal is to charge, but, with M7, it's not impossible to be on the recieving end).

-Builds

*Grinders: 3 Juggerknights, EW

*Lancers: 3 Juggerknighst, Lance

*Grind-quartet: 4 Juggerknights, EW

*Victory-Train: 6 Juggerknights, Lance

-Tactics

* Unless doing an Oblique Order, deploy them in the middle of your front-line and steam-roll your enemy.

* They work great together with a slaaneshi mage throwing Hysterical frenzy, which will give a total of 4 knight attacks, 4 jugger attacks and 1 jugger stomp per juggerknight in base contact. Also, due to their resilience, you won't need to worry too much about the d6 st 3 hits from Hysterical Frenzy.

* In fact, The lore of Slaanesh is great for these; Not only can hysterical frenzy give them 8 attacks a model, the first slaaneshi spell, Acquiescence, is godsend to these guys. Even with 4 st6 ws5 attacks, the juggers are I1, meaning they'll strike after everything hard-hitting without ASL (I.E: Mournfangs). Now you can give your opponents ASL. They say Khorne does not care whose blood is spilled. Well, Slaanesh doesn't care what it is, as long it's in excess, whether it's the speed of hellstriders or the frenzy of the juggerknights.

Shaggoth

-Summary
Our old friend is still in the list, hitting as hard as ever.
With his speed and high strength, he's quite good at killing monsters. Just watch out for cannons.

He will however have a hard time competing with Hellcannons and Juggerknights.

-Builds

*Standard Shaggoth: GW + armour.

-Tactics

Mutalith
Aka Vortex beast aka Tentacle thing

-Summary
A big monster with a bound spell.

Not extremely anything, but, you're most likely going to need the PD for your mage. (Unless you go Mono-khorne).

-Builds
-Tactics

Chaos Spawn
Aka Spawn
-Summary
-Builds
-Tactics

Chaos Giant
aka Giant
-Summary
-Builds
-Tactics

Slaughterbrute

-Summary
A new monster. Unfortunately; Anything the slaughterbrute can do, the shaggoth can do better. ('xcept thunderstomps)

-Builds
*See Tactics

-Tactics
* If you're playing a friendly game, you can ask your friends if you can use the slaughterbrute model, but with the shaggoth rules.

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 08:36
Common Tactics and Strategies.
(If you have written a tactic or strategy article, that you want to add here, I'd be glad to add it.)
__
The difference between tactics and strategy (according to US Ranger Handbook (1992))

Tactics: Drills, orders, manoeuvres and tricks you know and can use.

Strategy: The main battle-plan; what tactics you'll use to achieve victory.

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Go For Glory!
__

We're Warriors of Chaos we win by killing the opponent up close, (and with some spells and minimal shooting, but mostly by CC), not by hiding or waiting. WoC Requires you to be aggressive and brave, to charge and to gamble. Just like real life, the chaos gods "reward" the strong and brave who try and achieve, for you can't kill a cannon in combat unless you charge!

Remember, we don't win by hiding. We don't win by waiting. We win by killing.

So remember, GO FOR GLORY!

(Why did you think I named this tactica thread Shrine of Glory?)
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Chaff-Rotation
(If you have a better name, please tell. Remember that Redirecting is allready taken)
__

How to use Warhounds:

Step 1: Chose target enemy unit.

Step 2: Move warhounds in-front of the unit, and rotate so that the closest warhound is within 1", While the whole unit has such an angle, that if target unit charges warhounds (and most likely overruns), they will be positioned in such fashion that you can flank charge target unit with a heavy hitting unit or flame them with a template.

Step 3: Let them charge and kill and overrun your warhounds. They'll most likely have to do that. if they don't, you'll have an enemy unit that didn't move forward, and might be out of line.

Step 4: Flank/rear (if you're lucky) charge the target unit (or flame them).

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Oblique Order
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Winning 101:

Look at this picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phalange_oblique.gif

Small units: Anvils
Long unit: Hammer (Skullcrushers)

Simple, and can be reversed with the long unit on the right flank.

How to make it happen:
Start by putting upper average (by your armies standard) anvil units in the middle during deployment, and adjust during deployment, the more similar anvils you have, the later during the deployment phase you'll have to make the decision of hammer placement.

Pro Tip: put your most resilient anvil on the opposite side of your hammer.

Putting hammer against hammer (and hoping you'll get the first charge) will give you a head start.

Full wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_order

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Vanguard
__
You get a free move pre-game. Sound's simple?

Well, deployment's quite important, and with a free move comes a new chance to screw up your battle-line.

Whatever you do, do not move anything that can't flee (Khornate Horsemen) within a heavy hitting units charge range, especially if you go second.

So, What are you going to move?

Following units have access to vanguard:

Hounds: to move them up front can be good, but due to low target priority, won't cause much reaction. You have lots of uses for warhounds (I.E: "scouting mysterious terrain, "Chaff rotation", dying). Moving up front isn't necessarily one of them.

Horsemen: You don't have to move straight forward, sometimes, moving sideways can be just as good. If armed with Javs, the vanguard move can give you some shots at backfield units. If you're all flailing with khornate horsemen, and going second, you can easily get a first (your) turn charge. However, do not move too close.

Hellstriders (with Mounted slaaneshi characters): The mounted slaaneshi character is the most powerful and important unit in our army with vanguard (And your hellstriders go nowhere without hir.), and thus the one who will provoke most response by vanguarding. Since steeds of Slaanesh are extremely fast, your main goal with vanguard will either be to move directly to a safer place which you can charge from (if going second) or move to a safer place by combining Vanguard + march, which you can charge from.


The moves:

Move from middle to flank: If you're opponent has a "symmetric/Balanced/"Pretty"/Whatever" battle-line, moving all your vanguardians to the same side will give a dis-balance, increasing the chance for a successful oblique order. (Good for Khornate horsemen)

Move from flank to middle: Doing this with slaaneshi units can make the opponent chose to not put easy targets on that flank. What do slaaneshi units care, they're fast.

Move forward: Can be good for warhounds if you're planning to chaff-rotate. Also good if you're choir-bombing, not that choir-bombing is reliable in any way. It's simply the most simple move.


__
Fast moving armies/ ALLCAV
__

I myself am an Allcav player.

If you are going allcav, remember these things:

* Chariots are not cav

* Try to start in the middle of the field. All through lots of players put fast things in the flanks, high speed units are more versatile from the middle of the field, having access to most parts of the battlefield, more so in ALLCAV armies.

* Whole your army against half your opponents. Like the oblique order, but without anvils.

* Go for Glory! If you're being shot by stuff, charge! It's not like they'll stop shooting and surrender because your horsies hide behind a building. You only have horsies, and if they're hiding, who'll defeat the enemy?!

* Don't let your opponents enter buildings! Easier said than done, but with acquiescence/choir, you can force them out.

* Most important; The main strength of speed is that most if not all your units can be where they need to be, winning combats before enemy reinforcements have a chance to arrive.
____

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 08:36
Final Reserved post

ninjapixel
02-02-2013, 08:54
Just got my hands on the "iVersion" of the new WoC-book and have read some of it. I must say I like most of the updates;

- Having the marks actually cost per figure instead of per unit, which will allow one to field smaller units (if that is the taste).
- Making forsaken a core unit makes a huge different.
- Special unit, yeah that's right, chimera will be a nice model to put up on flanking duty / hunting warmachines (?).
- Lances are now cheaper than ensorcelled weapons - on the knights - makes more sense than how it was in the previous book.

Looking forward to watch this thread grow.

LordKrell
02-02-2013, 09:17
Looking forward for the Chaos Ogres vs. Trolls discussion.

Trolls are cheaper but not necessarily better. Ogres instead, are better and cheaper (although they lose 1 point of AS).
A single ogre with Mark of Nurgle (Khorne or Tzeentch) and GW is 45 pts, the same as the old trolls. (S6 vs S5, -1 to hit, ASL). Even if he has only a 5+ AS, MN make them a lot more resistant. He is hit at 4+ most of the time, and trolls at 3+ against common infantry.

I think the additional hand weapon option for trolls is quite useless, because only front rank will hit with 4A. At least completely useless against heavy armored troops (vomit is better). On the other hand, 4 attacks for 18pts in a unit of 6, 4 attacks for 24pts in a unit of 8, and 30 in a unit of 10 etc

Leadership is obviously leaning towards the ogres. L7 vs L5, means trolls have to be baby-sitted all the battle, not only the first turns.

On the charge, ogres are now common ogres, which means impact hits at S4, 5, or even S6. That leads to the how-to-run-them discussion. Trolls are quite deffensive on the other hand.

The Dragon Ogres vs. Skullcrushers will be very interesting too :D

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 09:30
Looking forward for the Chaos Ogres vs. Trolls discussion.

Trolls are cheaper but not necessarily better. Ogres instead, are better and cheaper (although they lose 1 point of AS).
A single ogre with Mark of Nurgle (Khorne or Tzeentch) and GW is 45 pts, the same as the old trolls. Even if he has only a 5+ AS, MN make them a lot more resistant. 4+ most of the time, and trolls at 3+ against common infantry.

I think the additional hand weapon option for trolls is quite useless, because only front rank will hit with 4A. At least completely useless against heavy armored troops. On the other hand, 4 attacks for 18pts in a unit of 6, 4 attacks for 24pts in a unit of 8, and 30 in a unit of 10.

Leadership is obviously leaning towards the ogres. L7 vs L5, means trolls have to be baby-sitted all the battle, not only the first turns.

On the charge, ogres are now common ogres, which means impact hits at S4, 5, or even S6. That leads to the how-to-run-them discussion. Trolls are quite deffensive on the other hand.

The Dragon Ogres vs. Skullcrushers will be very interesting too :D

Obviously, The extra handweapon is useless in a troll unit of 5 or more trolls (or 4 if you go 2x2). Or any troll unit that focuses on Vomiting.

But trolls have a use: They make good core in a Throgg army, especially since he gives all MI, M, MB and WB his Leadership when they're within 18, whether he's the general or not.

Drogers ar now Cheaper, an they are special, but the juggerknights are a unit that wipes out units on the charge, and will be fabulous combined with hysterical frenzy (giving the juggers frenzy, and the knights +1 attack). Banner of Rage might also be good if you want 3-4 extra Jugger attacks.

MyNameDidntFit
02-02-2013, 09:45
I just want to mention that the Hellcannon has gotten a lot better with this book:

It's attacks (including ranged!) are now magical and it has a 5+ true Ward along with the old 5+ 'handler Ward' it used to have.

Blkc57
02-02-2013, 10:35
Anyone notice that when a character ascends to Daemon Prince status your opponent gets the points for the character since he counts as a casualty. Kinda puts a damper on shooting for the best result on the table

Mutter
02-02-2013, 10:58
I just want to mention that the Hellcannon has gotten a lot better with this book:

It's attacks (including ranged!) are now magical and it has a 5+ true Ward along with the old 5+ 'handler Ward' it used to have.

It also got a lot worse.
It's much, much slower now, has to make a kill (or was that wound? Either way ...) to cause panic and the misfire where all wizards were affected will now almost always only affect your own spellcasters.

Avian
02-02-2013, 11:06
Well, it's not a lot worse, but after having it pointed out that its movement got kicked back to 6th edition levels, I can understand why it got to keep S5(10).

Nubl0
02-02-2013, 11:29
Still a str 5 template so it's awesome. Also it's now more survivable with a true ward and the handler rules.

The specials section seems to be congested with amazing units, but the top two for me look like the chimera and gorebeast chariot. The chariots is so cheap for the amount of punishment it can take not to mention the damage it can inflict. The chimera on the other hand is practically a flying hydra, well worth the price imo.

Dirty Mac
02-02-2013, 11:51
I told my friend about our new flying Hydra, and he almost cried.

Morkash
02-02-2013, 13:00
Hey fellow Warrior players, I will start my first games this week, until arrival of Wayland's Bag O' Goods I will proxy quite some stuff, but the first draft of my 3k list will look like this:

(A note before the list: I'm playing Mono Nurgle, so do not wonder why some units are missing. ;))

Rhomkar the Pus-Hearted, Daemon Prince of Nurgle (Level 3; Lore of Nurgle) with Chaos Armour, Flaming Breath, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder, Chaos Familiar, Sword of Striking and Charmed Shield
(Note: I will more likely use Daemon Princes without Magic and use either 2 Level 2's or one Level 4 and a Level 2, but I wanted to try some new units out and taking a DP with Magic Levels frees up some points)

Putrificus, Sorcerer of Nurgle (Level 2; Lore of Nurgle) with Skull of Katam and Chalice of Chaos (Tactic: Channeling loads of dice, and if the Ld gets too low, gamble & hoping for Ascendancy)
Marius the Bloated, Battlestandard Bearer of Nurgle with Poisonous Slime, Enchanted Shield and Dawn Stone (Defensive with poison)
Throgg, the Troll King (His Strength 8 can't hurt to have)

The Defilers, 16 Warriors of Nurgle with Halberds and Standardbearer (Putrificus & Marius here)
The Maggot-minded, 7 Chaos Trolls with additional Handweapons (Throgg here)
The Hounds of Marius, 2 x 5 Chaos Hounds
The Rotten Chariot, Chariot of Nurgle

Chaotic Atrocities, 2 Chimerae with Flaming Breath and Regenerating Flesh
Harbingers of Pestilence, 6 Knights of Nurgle with Ensorcelled Weapons, Musician and Standardbearer
The Leveler, Gorebeast Chariot of Nurgle

Hematemesis, Hellcannon

Comes out at exactly 3000 points.
Some thoughts: I never played any list with so few bodies in there, on the other hand there is lots of destruction bound in the units I got. Nurgle's Magic should decimate and weaken large units plus the Daemon Prince is more than able to not only roadblock most hordes for the entire game but also to grind them down while doing so. With support from a Chimera and/or a chariot I expect him to be fine as soon as he's in close combat where he should be in round 2. (hence the Charmed Shield, just in case...and also for the 1+ AS)

Warriors with Halberds are as good as ever, just more expensive. They are hit on 5's by pretty much every non-character unit in the game and can be buffed with Regeneration should the need arise. Again, chariots and Chimerae can support them, as can the DP depending on what I'm facing. The Trolls should be fine on their own, Throgg is immensely powerful and Trolls with 4 attacks can't hurt. Won't help if they vomit but against infantry units it should be great.

All in all it's a extremely elite but resilient army since most models have either a high armour save, Regeneration/Ward save or both. Also the Mark of Nurgle should come in handy.

I'm really looking forward to try it out and will keep you updated. :)

If you have any thoughts or ideas of improvement then feel free!

Shadow_Steed
02-02-2013, 13:07
I like the new book. Although I was saddened by the fact that 1) Festus cannot join my Khornate Warriors and 2) That my Nurgle Knights cannot have the banner of frenzy.

snottlebocket
02-02-2013, 13:16
I like the new book. Although I was saddened by the fact that 1) Festus cannot join my Khornate Warriors and 2) That my Nurgle Knights cannot have the banner of frenzy.

It's a nice thing to have but I always thought it was exceedingly silly that it was possible. Even if only for one edition.

alphamale
02-02-2013, 13:31
Now if only GW made better looking chimeras...

ninjapixel
02-02-2013, 14:30
Now if only GW made better looking chimeras...

If willing to pay you can get this awesome looking beast (http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnb-007) instead of the one from GW.

Voss
02-02-2013, 14:41
Well, it's not a lot worse, but after having it pointed out that its movement got kicked back to 6th edition levels, I can understand why it got to keep S5(10).

It also can't move and fire.

@nubl0 - it is definitely a beast. But while regen is worth taking, I am not entirely sold on the breath weapon. I would definitely take one over the new monsters

snottlebocket
02-02-2013, 14:43
It also can't move and fire.

@nubl0 - it is definitely a beast. But while regen is worth taking, I am not entirely sold on the breath weapon. I would definitely take one over the new monsters

Breath weapon means 2d6 extra hits in combat. Worth it for that alone.

Voss
02-02-2013, 15:00
Breath weapon means 2d6 extra hits in combat. Worth it for that alone.

Yeah, but only one combat, which is why I am uncertain. Base cost and regen and breath makes it expensive. And unlike a lot of monsters it already has a lot of attacks (6+ d3 +d6) so it isn't as important, unless it is trying to solo large units, which isn't a good idea. But on the other claw, it does add to the anti horde capability of the army.

Avian
02-02-2013, 15:49
It also can't move and fire.
It could never move and fire, so that's not a loss.

TsukeFox
02-02-2013, 15:59
I told my friend about our new flying Hydra, and he almost cried.

:: Crying ::

:: cry ::

Nubl0
02-02-2013, 16:01
Also anyone else find spawn pretty good now? I imagine a spawn of tzeentch being a great back line model to hunt speedy flankers.

Shadow_Steed
02-02-2013, 17:20
Has anyone come up with any tactics that might be cool to try out? Magic combos or stuff like that. :)

TsukeFox
02-02-2013, 17:36
If willing to pay you can get this awesome looking beast (http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnb-007) instead of the one from GW.

Man that model looks like it came from a gaming company that takes pride on every model released.

snottlebocket
02-02-2013, 18:27
Has anyone come up with any tactics that might be cool to try out? Magic combos or stuff like that. :)

Between gifts and magic items you can make some pretty mean chaos lords and demon princes. There's a gift that let's you reroll 1's for a ward, a gift that gives you an additional 2 points of armor save, nurgle gives enemies -1 to hit when they try to strike you in combat and tzeentch gives you an extra point of ward save.

It all adds up to lords with ridiculous protection, either in armor saves, ward saves or simply being next to impossible to hit in combat. Or a combination of those. Give a demon prince the mark of nurgle + glittering scales combined with his natural weapon skill of 9 and just about anything in the game will need 6's or 7's to hit him in combat. Very effective, but you're paying for it by lowering his armor save and max potential ward save.

Lore of nurgle is pretty good in general, lots of buffs and debuffs so no end to the shenanigans you can pull with that when combined with your already good troops.

warplock
02-02-2013, 18:30
just about anything in the game will need 6's or 7's to hit him in combat

A roll of 6 always hits (in combat).

Leth Shyish'phak
02-02-2013, 18:37
Has anyone come up with any tactics that might be cool to try out? Magic combos or stuff like that. :)

Take a tanky Slaanesh Lord with the Crown of Command or Sigvald, stick them in a unit with some other Slaanesh character with the Pendant of Slaanesh standing somewhere safe, and you have an Unbreakable-ish (if expensive) unit. Yay for death star units! :shifty:

Rikkjourd
02-02-2013, 18:57
Is it just me or is the Daemonblade the worst magic weapon (mutation) ever?

snottlebocket
02-02-2013, 19:02
Is it just me or is the Daemonblade the worst magic weapon (mutation) ever?

It has it's uses on models with a low innate combat potential like sorcerers. Any would be assassin would be unpleasantly surprised and the sorcerer usually doesn't spend enough time in combat to kill himself. That said, there's probably better things to do with your points. Especially with so many amazing cheap mutations.

Chaos Undecided
02-02-2013, 19:07
Nice that you can make a decent daemon prince from the new book though its probably not the most cost effective choice for an average sized game and personally its a little annoying you can't one without a specific mark, also a little peeved about the spawn being a one model per choice limiting you to two in 2000pts but its what we're stuck with.

What do people actually think about the new war shrine we finally get the option to use it as a mount but its neutered as a chariot and the change to the buff is interesting potentially leading to multiple champions going spawny/daemon prince during a battle. Considering including one as a mount for a sorcerer to just loiter behind the battle line I think.

Voss
02-02-2013, 19:15
It actually doesn't lose much as far as not getting most of the chariot special rules. Instead of 5 attacks + impact it has 4 attacks +d6 attacks (sure, they don't autohit and are ws 3, as are two of the attacks, but it is more effective after the charge is over. The bigger thing is losing the point of toughness, but it got an extra wound instead. It does function very differently, but I think the unit buffs got a little out of hand, and the new version fits better with the background, where only dedicated individuals are singled out for favor by the Dark Gods.

As for the daemon prince, it depends on what you mean by an 'average sized game'. You can take one at 2000 with level 4 and most of the major abilities you want. You might have to forgo wings, and a minor power or two, but you can do the 1+/5++ ASF beast if you like.


Has anyone come up with any tactics that might be cool to try out? Magic combos or stuff like that. :)
Well, there is the obvious stuff.
Nurgle daemon prince, helm of many eyes, chaos armor, nurgle's rot, breath weapon, soul feeder, scaly skin.
1+/5++ save, -1 to be hit in close combat (so anything with WS 4 or less needs a 6)
rerollable attacks against most targets (ASF + I8).

Throw on nurgle spells to make the situation even worse for the target:
-penalty to WS and I to make his rerollable attacks even more likely, and to make sure the enemy hits only on 6 (WS 5 with basic version, up to WS 7 with augmented version!)
- toughness penalty to the enemy unit- easier to wound, and even the nurgle's rot hits become scary,
- toughness buff on the DP, which makes him absurdly hard to kill, especially if he is casting spells himself and slowly gaining T and W as well as healing wounds back.

Rikkjourd
02-02-2013, 19:20
Considering including one as a mount for a sorcerer to just loiter behind the battle line I think.

I wouldn't do that unless I had a fluff or modelling reason. He will attract all kinds of missiles and die.

Qemist
02-02-2013, 19:35
Man that model looks like it came from a gaming company that takes pride on every model released.

Actually it technically comes from maelstrom games, who are a gaming company who take pride in ripping off their customers. Nice model though.

shakedown47
02-02-2013, 19:55
What are people's thoughts on arming Dragon Ogres? For my own army, I'm only considering halberds or greatweapons to be able to take down enemy monsters; I have a plethora of Strength 5 infantry blender attacks so having a bunch more is just overkill. At a lowly I 2 I'm inclined to go with great weapons, but then I think of facing off against Ironguts and then the halberds look really nice. Appearance-wise, I'd say I prefer the great weapons. How is everyone going to arm theirs?

LordKrell
02-02-2013, 20:17
It could never move and fire, so that's not a loss.

Does the hellcannon have the ASL 1D6 hits rule now? Since it is a monster, it should. -which was the name for that rule? stomp?

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 20:31
Thunderstomp, still has it.

Gromdal
02-02-2013, 20:33
Does the hellcannon have the ASL 1D6 hits rule now? Since it is a monster, it should. -which was the name for that rule? stomp?

An amazing new book I'm working on some new builds

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 20:35
An amazing new book I'm working on some new builds

Please try them and, if they're good, share them:)

thedeabrain
02-02-2013, 20:37
Hello everyone this is my first post about what really left me hallucinated of the new chaos book (apart from the super useful magic items. super. useful).
I was wondering whats really behind the slaughterbrute stats,
with the claws upgrade "can" match the A of a shaggoth but moves slower and has fewer wounds, also has just those "minor" drawbacks if the lord dies.
ok brute have more ws but i think shaggot ws is enough to hit already almost anything on 3+ !
shaggoth is Faster.
point cost is almost the same if shaggot doesnt go with 2h (but in this case he also passes the brute on strenght)
so whats the point in taking the brute? Anybody have some idea of what he can do better then a shaggoth?
all i can think of it is to try build it in a chariot to use instead of that simian monster from sci/fi movies of the past century.

Voss
02-02-2013, 20:39
What are people's thoughts on arming Dragon Ogres? For my own army, I'm only considering halberds or greatweapons to be able to take down enemy monsters; I have a plethora of Strength 5 infantry blender attacks so having a bunch more is just overkill. At a lowly I 2 I'm inclined to go with great weapons, but then I think of facing off against Ironguts and then the halberds look really nice. Appearance-wise, I'd say I prefer the great weapons. How is everyone going to arm theirs?
Not certain. Cost-wise I'm leaning toward extra hand weapons, but as you say, S5 is available all over the place (to the point that the entire army can be S5). Plus, I like the idea of 2x2 formation and extra hand weapons aren't as useful there. As far as halberds vs great weapons go, well, given the speed the dragon ogres can move, avoiding other ASL units is actually easier than avoiding units that the strike before you regardless (as the latter are much more common). I think I'd rather have the extra strength (for monsters and the like) and armor penetration, than hope I can beat someone to the draw with I2.

snottlebocket
02-02-2013, 20:41
What are people's thoughts on arming Dragon Ogres? For my own army, I'm only considering halberds or greatweapons to be able to take down enemy monsters; I have a plethora of Strength 5 infantry blender attacks so having a bunch more is just overkill. At a lowly I 2 I'm inclined to go with great weapons, but then I think of facing off against Ironguts and then the halberds look really nice. Appearance-wise, I'd say I prefer the great weapons. How is everyone going to arm theirs?

I'd go with great weapons. Their iniative of 2 means halberds only come into play when they're fighting troops with I1, great weapons of their own or always strikes last. It seems too situational to go for halberds, might as well go for great weapons. They should be able to take a punch before dishing out theirs.

Extra hand weapons might be worth it if you know you'll mostly be facing hordes of mediocre infantry. But at that point you probably have better options than dragon ogres.

Personally I think skull crushers look to be the slightly better unit. They just have so much going for them, they look like they can blend just about anything with a fantastic armor save to boot.

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 20:43
Hello everyone this is my first post about what really left me hallucinated of the new chaos book (apart from the super useful magic items. super. useful).
I was wondering whats really behind the slaughterbrute stats,
with the claws upgrade "can" match the A of a shaggoth but moves slower and has fewer wounds, also has just those "minor" drawbacks if the lord dies.
ok brute have more ws but i think shaggot ws is enough to hit already almost anything on 3+ !
point cost is almost the same if shaggot doesnt go with 2h (but in this case he also passes the brute on strenght)
so whats the point in taking the brute? Anybody have some idea of what he can do better then a shaggot?
all i can think of it is to try build it in a chariot to use instead of that simian monster from sci/fi movies of the past century.

Welcome.

As it seems now, (And until someone play-testes it), the shaggoth is superior to the Slaughterbrute*.

The only use I could think of is if you'd want a monster with sky-high WS to go toe to toe with a 'thirster or some deadly, high I close combat-lord.
The only problem is that a Chaos Lord or DP could basically do the same. Well, maybe except the 'thirster, but I doubt the Slaughterbrute* could do that either.

Also, Does anyone know a good build that could throatpunch a 'thirster?

* We need a short nickname for the Slaughterbrute. One that's easy to write.

snottlebocket
02-02-2013, 20:50
Welcome.

As it seems now, (And until someone play-testes it), the shaggoth is superior to the Slaughterbrute*.

The only use I could think of is if you'd want a monster with sky-high WS to go toe to toe with a 'thirster or some deadly, high I close combat-lord.
The only problem is that a Chaos Lord or DP could basically do the same. Well, maybe except the 'thirster, but I doubt the Slaughterbrute* could do that either.

Also, Does anyone know a good build that could throatpunch a 'thirster?

* We need a short nickname for the Slaughterbrute. One that's easy to write.

With chaos I usually find that the solution is to beat threats with units, not characters. Dragon ogres, chaos ogres, trolls, skull crushers and so on. They'll all beat just about anything through brute force and attrition.

It can be hard to trap flying creatures but hey, you can afford practically carpet the battlefield with hounds to force favorable situations. Tooled up characters are still only a handful of wounds and attacks. Once you start talking monstrous units, you're usually talking buckets worth of attacks and wounds.

thedeabrain
02-02-2013, 20:52
thanks for the answer/confirmation! i'd go with brutie (-cutie joke)

Rikkjourd
02-02-2013, 20:53
The bound monster rule of the brute is flavourful, but awful in game terms. If your lord goes down to a snipe or something, the brute becomes almost useless (unless you hit an enemy by pure luck). Also it will start to kill any friendly units it runs into.

A shaggoth on the other hand will keep fighting as normal.

Given that it seems like the shaggoth is superior even without taking the bound rule into account, this choice should be obvious.

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 20:54
The bound monster rule of the brute is flavourful, but awful in game terms. If your lord goes down to a snipe or something, the brute becomes almost useless (unless you hit an enemy by pure luck). Also it will start to kill any friendly units it runs into.

A shaggoth on the other hand will keep fighting as normal.

Given that it seems like the shaggoth is superior even without taking the bound rule into account, this choice should be obvious.

Also, The bound rule stops working when you ascend to Daemonhood.

Voss
02-02-2013, 21:01
Welcome.

As it seems now, (And until someone play-testes it), the shaggoth is superior to the Slaughterbrute*.

The only use I could think of is if you'd want a monster with sky-high WS to go toe to toe with a 'thirster or some deadly, high I close combat-lord.
The only problem is that a Chaos Lord or DP could basically do the same. Well, maybe except the 'thirster, but I doubt the Slaughterbrute* could do that either.

Also, Does anyone know a good build that could throatpunch a 'thirster?

* We need a short nickname for the Slaughterbrute. One that's easy to write.

Brute. Or possibly 'waste'

As far as 'throatpunching' a bloodthirster- Support from the lore of nurgle will help. (either dropping WS and I or reducing toughness)
Centered hellcannon shots (even a few wounds help later)
dragon ogres with great weapons (they have the wounds to take some hits, and if you can drop the WS to 8, they have the attacks to do damage)
lots of S5 attacks (which are widely available).

warplock
02-02-2013, 21:02
As it seems now, (And until someone play-testes it), the shaggoth is superior to the Slaughterbrute*.
The only use I could think of is if you'd want a monster with sky-high WS to go toe to toe with a 'thirster or some deadly, high I close combat-lord.

But the Slaughterbrute is stuck at I3 regardless. With T5, 5 wounds and a just a 4+ armour save (how on earth is that generic Daemonic creature not a Daemon...) it will be eaten alive by any decent combat Lord (Chaos Lord, Vampire Lord, or anyone who does multiple wounds) Actually I noted earlier that it has very similar stats to a Carnosaur, to the point where it seems Cruddace just copied and pasted a Carnosaur's stats and then just changed a couple. It has -1M but +1I, I think. However, the Carnosaur does D3 wounds, which means that despite the fact that it can't get above WS3 without help from a Slann means its more deadly IMO. And Carnosaurs aren't exactly tempting choices in the the Lizardmen army book.


We need a short nickname for the Slaughterbrute. One that's easy to write.

Hopefully people will just stop talking about it before a nickname is thought of to replace its incredibly unimaginative real name.

inq.serge
02-02-2013, 21:07
Maybe the Slaugterbrute is there to kill less awsome CC-lords/heroes, while your Lord fights an other CC-lord, 'cause he can't be everywhere?

Or maybe the brute's utterly useless.

kramplarv
02-02-2013, 21:22
well, S7 is nice. :)

Kalandros
02-02-2013, 21:55
From what I heard, Throgg costs a bit more and lost his D6 Vomit and his LD is extended to 18" for "Monstrous General" but no more "BSB-like" effect?
Still quite viable and even more now that Trolls cost 7 pts less for an extra attack :D

And that 18" LD means he can help an entire side of the field while the LD9 general is on the other side.

Voss
02-02-2013, 22:00
Throgg has normal vomit and Copious Vomit: which is a S5 breath weapon with no armor saves.
And yeah, the crown gives him an 18" leadership bubble for war beasts, monstrous beasts, monstrous infantry and monsters. But no reroll.

He is pretty cheap for what he provides.


well, S7 is nice. :)
And a point less will give you 9 S7 attacks with dragon ogres & great weapons. And more than double the number of wounds.

Nubl0
02-02-2013, 23:11
I'm sure someone will get the SB working, could be alright at hunting other monsters witt it's high str and good int (for a monster). I am determined to use a mutalith though. Imo the real gems of the book would be the chariots and chimeras, they get pricey when tooled up but the are super mobile thanks to flight and can actually dish out a serious amount of hurt. Getting one in the flank of your usual infantry block will cause them serious problems. That and they make great distractions for a list running a DP.

Only weakness I see is the chimera pretty much insta dying to VC scream spam, which might limit them in my lists for tourney play at least. Seeing as there are no VC in my local meta though they will find extensive use.

herohammer
03-02-2013, 03:42
Does anyone else think that the warpFLAME special rule was meant to give the spells that have it flaming, what given that they hand out free regen, are described as flaming, and that similar spells and units in the daemons book are all flaming...

That and the lack of any cap on the regen they can give your opponent (2+ regen? Thank you for spending you dice giving me that!).

Until warp flame is given an FAQ to be flaming the lore of tzeentch is probably the worst lore in the game. I would rather have athel Loren. It makes lore of the wild look like a slann rocking lore of life.

If warpflame is FAQ to be flaming the lore is kind of interesting with a very powerful lore attribute. The offensive spells (with flaming otherwise one might as well not cast them) have to be committed to killing chaff or thrown at a unit that will go up against a unit with the flaming banner. The number of breath weapons he army can get between the breath weapon gift and 3 chimaeras is pretty nice for this too. A kind of highly mobile tzeentch force with marauder cav and dogs msu led by disk rider or tzeentch daemon prince misgjt e neat if warpflame is flaming. Otherwise every spell you throw makes you subsequent spells worse so fjshhdhehdkdndjsndidhgaudjtb [my rage at gw failing to write rules that make sense]

Sorry for typos I am typing this on a smart phone

Doommasters
03-02-2013, 03:47
Chaos Lords are they back?

Here is one build I have been playing around with;

Chaos Lord
MoT
Great Weapon
Talism of Preservation (Talism)
Crown of Command (Enchanted Item)
Third Eye of Tz
Flaming Breath
Soul Feeder
Disk
(Add sheilds mounts/magic weapon etc etc to get best Armour save you can if you like)


So here is what you get;

X+/3+ Re-roll 1's for Ward Save
Flying
Stubborn
Breath Weapon
5 S7 attacks (I figure when only a 2 can get through your Ward Save why not go for great weapon as who cares if you don't attack first)
Regain a wound on a 6+ for every wound you inflict

This guy is going to be very very hard to kill!

herohammer
03-02-2013, 03:55
A nurgle lord with MoN, trickster's helm , dawnstone, scaled skin an a great weapon or ahw is cheap enough to get in a level 4 sorc in 2500 and sports -1 to hit T5 wounds must be rerolled against him 1+ rerollable for defense.

Doommasters
03-02-2013, 04:12
The ultimate in my books would be something like this;

Daemon Prince
lvl4
MoN
Chaos Armour
Enchanted Sheild
The Other Trickesters Shard
Flying
Flamming Breath
Soul Feeder
Chaos Familiar


So;

1+/5+
-1 To Hit
Regain Wounds 1/6 chance for every wound inflicted
Effectively 2 breath Weapons (Stream of Corruption can be attempted every turn), Once can be used in the CCB phase so if you are running low on wounds fly into some chaff/skeletons etc and use it ...probably regain a couple of wounds)
Enemies re-roll ward saves
1/6 chance of gaining +1W and +1T for every cast
Unbreakable
Magic Attacks
Cause Terror
Lore Master
Channel on 5+

Voss
03-02-2013, 04:27
Does anyone else think that the warpFLAME special rule was meant to give the spells that have it flaming, what given that they hand out free regen, are described as flaming, and that similar spells and units in the daemons book are all flaming...
No. The warpflame special rule gives its effects: d3 wounds are inflicted from the chaotic energies of the spells (which manifest as multi-colored chaotic fire) or they survive and gain a benefit.

What the old daemon book gives or doesn't give is irrelevant.

Zhul
03-02-2013, 04:28
Hey there all. I've just finished my first read through the new WoC army book, and I've got to say...I'm stoked. Very cool stuff, I'm loving it.

In a week's time, there's going to be a small tournament/campaign at my local Games Workshop, and I've decided to build up and paint the entire 1000 points I'll need for that during this week, and hopefully be ready for next Saturday. Anyway, I need some help in coming up with a 1000 point list, as there's so, so much variety and choice in our awesome new army book. However, I do have the glimmering start of a plan....

I'm looking for this initial 1000 points to be the starting, or core, part of a new WoC army for myself. I've also decided I'm really into chariots now, both the "normal" Chaos Chariot, and also the Gorebeast Chariot. In fact, I'm finding that I'm into a lot of the mounted options in the book. I wouldn't want to go so extreme as to go all mounted, of course (I like my infantry too!), but I'm thinking a goodly proportion of chariots and the like.

So, I definitely need a little hand in coming up with this 1000 point army at the moment...it's all just so much. I do know I want to have an Exalted mounted on a chariot (or Gorebeast chariot!)...that would be Krulmir the Scourge, Kurgan warleader and boss of my burgeoning little soon-to-be Chaos warband. Other than that, well, I have to fully admit I'm at a loss. I know it's quite vague, but any help from you lot in the right direction would be absolutely awesome. I'm a new Chaos Lord on a very tight schedule, and your help would go a long, long way in helping me get my starting 1000 point warband up and running in time to crush all before me. Not only that, but I'm sure the Dark Gods would be pleased if you assisted a fellow (aspiring) champion...

Thanks!

Zhul

Doommasters
03-02-2013, 06:56
Hey there all. I've just finished my first read through the new WoC army book, and I've got to say...I'm stoked. Very cool stuff, I'm loving it.

In a week's time, there's going to be a small tournament/campaign at my local Games Workshop, and I've decided to build up and paint the entire 1000 points I'll need for that during this week, and hopefully be ready for next Saturday. Anyway, I need some help in coming up with a 1000 point list, as there's so, so much variety and choice in our awesome new army book. However, I do have the glimmering start of a plan....

I'm looking for this initial 1000 points to be the starting, or core, part of a new WoC army for myself. I've also decided I'm really into chariots now, both the "normal" Chaos Chariot, and also the Gorebeast Chariot. In fact, I'm finding that I'm into a lot of the mounted options in the book. I wouldn't want to go so extreme as to go all mounted, of course (I like my infantry too!), but I'm thinking a goodly proportion of chariots and the like.

So, I definitely need a little hand in coming up with this 1000 point army at the moment...it's all just so much. I do know I want to have an Exalted mounted on a chariot (or Gorebeast chariot!)...that would be Krulmir the Scourge, Kurgan warleader and boss of my burgeoning little soon-to-be Chaos warband. Other than that, well, I have to fully admit I'm at a loss. I know it's quite vague, but any help from you lot in the right direction would be absolutely awesome. I'm a new Chaos Lord on a very tight schedule, and your help would go a long, long way in helping me get my starting 1000 point warband up and running in time to crush all before me. Not only that, but I'm sure the Dark Gods would be pleased if you assisted a fellow (aspiring) champion...

Thanks!

Zhul

Did you have a mark in mind?

Shadow_Steed
03-02-2013, 09:58
Cheers for the answers mates!

I was thinking of the following.

30 (Horde) Khornate Warriors with AHW + Hysterical Frenzy, would dish out a ridiculous amount of attacks.

Also, modelling-wise (might be OT). I will use the Gorebeast as a Spawn, it looks like we might need to have at least one Spawn in each battle for the Eotg results.

LordKrell
03-02-2013, 10:31
The ultimate in my books would be something like this;

Daemon Prince
lvl4
MoN
Chaos Armour
Enchanted Sheild
The Other Trickesters Shard
Flying
Flamming Breath
Soul Feeder
Chaos Familiar


So;

1+/5+
-1 To Hit
Regain Wounds 1/6 chance for every wound inflicted
Effectively 2 breath Weapons (Stream of Corruption can be attempted every turn), Once can be used in the CCB phase so if you are running low on wounds fly into some chaff/skeletons etc and use it ...probably regain a couple of wounds)
Enemies re-roll ward saves
1/6 chance of gaining +1W and +1T for every cast
Unbreakable
Magic Attacks
Cause Terror
Lore Master
Channel on 5+

And S6 ASL Thunderstomp (more chances to roll 6s in the soul feeder).

And maybe he could save 35pts being lvl. 3, since the familiar already gives 4 spells. Don't think that +1 at casting is worth 35pts, but could work.

Finally... The Other Trickesters Shard is great, but I would try the dawnstone + scaly skin, or even the sword that gives +1 to hit. Combined with the poisoned attacks (which are only 15pts), he will be hitting at 2+ (I think that is legal, but I'm not sure), and 6s being wounds. Maybe poisoned attacks is not amazing, but that sword is great... if you consider he is S6...

LordKrell
03-02-2013, 10:51
Regarding the 30 khorne horde with AHW + histerycal frenzy
You're right but that will cost you a ridicolous amount of points. Keep in mind that the larger the unit is, it becomes exponentially more expensive. And they are slow. Make sure you reach something at turn 2 or 3, if you don't they are not likely to kill almost 600pts.

But you know, throwing 70 dice... is awesome!! :D

Von Wibble
03-02-2013, 10:57
From what I heard, Throgg costs a bit more and lost his D6 Vomit and his LD is extended to 18" for "Monstrous General" but no more "BSB-like" effect?
Still quite viable and even more now that Trolls cost 7 pts less for an extra attack :D

And that 18" LD means he can help an entire side of the field while the LD9 general is on the other side.

With a breath weapon he effectively has a 2D6 vomit now. He looks pretty good to me.

For Dragon Ogres - I can see halberds being useful if you run a decent amount of magic with Nurgle, Slaanesh or Shadow. All 3 have options to lower opponents I, making said spells a big threat to an opponent facing them.

What do people think of the Mutalith?

I think the stats look fairly poor on paper, but I could see people throwing a lot of dispel dice at that abiity as the potential is absurdly good. As an innate bound spell iirc you get no penalties if you cast with IF either.

warplock
03-02-2013, 11:17
Is Throgg the best bang-for-your-buck character ever? He was good before, and now for a small increase, from what I hear (my book is coming tomorrow) he has 2D6 vomit and a Great Weapon making, him S8? If you're not flaming or capable of causing on average 8 wounds to T5 (he has 4 wounds and a 4+ regen, right?) then you are dead dead dead, 2D6 S5 hits with no armour saves allowed followed by several S8 attacks, which ignores everything apart from 1+ armour, will see to that.

Shadow_Steed
03-02-2013, 11:38
Regarding the 30 khorne horde with AHW + histerycal frenzy
You're right but that will cost you a ridicolous amount of points. Keep in mind that the larger the unit is, it becomes exponentially more expensive. And they are slow. Make sure you reach something at turn 2 or 3, if you don't they are not likely to kill almost 600pts.

But you know, throwing 70 dice... is awesome!! :D

:D.

I have already painted my 30 Khornate warriors so I will have to use them regardless :). But I agree, it will cost a houuuugyyyee amount of points.

snottlebocket
03-02-2013, 11:43
:D.

I have already painted my 30 Khornate warriors so I will have to use them regardless :). But I agree, it will cost a houuuugyyyee amount of points.

Add two characters or two more chaos warriors and field them as two units of 16. You're paying a crap ton of points for those models and in a unit of 30 all they're adding is a single supporting attack each. If you want to reduce points cost you can always field them as one or two smaller units.

Might as well split them up into two units. It gives you more options, it gives your opponent more targets to divide his attention and those khorne warriors won't miss that single point of rank bonus. I don't see the point in paying for a chaos warrior with 4 attacks that's only going to use one attack, save for the front rank.

TsukeFox
03-02-2013, 13:00
So will the Other Triskters Shard (reroll ward saves ) cancel out the Third Eye of Tzeentch ?

Avian
03-02-2013, 13:35
No, the "canceling each other out" is essentially just a convenience because it equates to re-rolling all the dice regardless. This isn't it.

inq.serge
03-02-2013, 14:09
So will the Other Triskters Shard (reroll ward saves ) cancel out the Third Eye of Tzeentch ?


No, the "canceling each other out" is essentially just a convenience because it equates to re-rolling all the dice regardless. This isn't it.

If anything, lets say you have a 3+ wardsave, all but 2's will be re-rolled once, if I understood correctly.

TsukeFox
03-02-2013, 14:59
No, the "canceling each other out" is essentially just a convenience because it equates to re-rolling all the dice regardless. This isn't it.

Nutz

Just gotta suck it up and never allocate attacks on the Tzeentch guy-

What about the Fell Blade to nullify the Third Eye ? ::grasping to false hope ::

cold0
03-02-2013, 15:29
It’s seem the role of warshrine is completely different than before. It’s a sort of “mobile bunker”, relative inexpensive (60 slave), where to place a sorcerer or of the Army standard bearer. With T and TS 4++ (3+ with Tzeentch), it’s difficult to shoot down, with 5 or 6 to hit the rider (I haven’t the book yet, so I’m not sure if the hero replace the shrinemaster) in the shooting phase, and mitigate the effect of the EoTG table. An Exalted Champion on a warshrine can be a good support for other units. The role of the bound spell is relative; just if the opponent is out of dispel dices. Anyway giving a hero a reroll for a turn, or a permanent +1 S or +1 TS, it’s not bad.

Clearly if one has two warshrines, he can go to Ebay and sell one….

Rikkjourd
03-02-2013, 15:43
cold0: it is not a bunker lol, it is a great way to get your sorc killed.

cold0
03-02-2013, 15:51
cold0: it is not a bunker lol, it is a great way to get your sorc killed.

Well, I wil try it with the Standard Bearer when my armybook will arrive. If it does not work, you will find another painted shrine on Ebay...

warplock
03-02-2013, 15:56
Nutz

Just gotta suck it up and never allocate attacks on the Tzeentch guy-

What about the Fell Blade to nullify the Third Eye ? ::grasping to false hope ::

There's nothing which can 'nullify' the Third Eye of Tzeentch, because, like the OTS, the Fellblade forces the enemy to reroll successful ward saves, whereas the Third Eye lets you reroll a 1, which will always be a failed ward save. The OTS will still make it a lot easier to kill Tzeentch characters, though, because if they succeed the ward, reroll and get a 1, they can't use Third Eye to reroll that one.
I believe a Chaos Lord has higher initiative than a Skaven Warlord, though, or if not he has access to ASF anyway, and the rat won't have any points for defence, so I don't think the Fellblade is any sort of worry for them.

TsukeFox
03-02-2013, 16:13
There's nothing which can 'nullify' the Third Eye of Tzeentch, because, like the OTS, the Fellblade forces the enemy to reroll successful ward saves, whereas the Third Eye lets you reroll a 1, which will always be a failed ward save. The OTS will still make it a lot easier to kill Tzeentch characters, though, because if they succeed the ward, reroll and get a 1, they can't use Third Eye to reroll that one.
I believe a Chaos Lord has higher initiative than a Skaven Warlord, though, or if not he has access to ASF anyway, and the rat won't have any points for defence, so I don't think the Fellblade is any sort of worry for them.

Hmm

I yield to the power of Tzeentch- the all Powerful.

Zhul
03-02-2013, 16:42
Did you have a mark in mind?

I actually don't, Doommasters...I'm open to any and all Mark(s).

Zhul

Lord Solar Plexus
03-02-2013, 16:54
Regarding the 30 khorne horde with AHW + histerycal frenzy...Make sure you reach something at turn 2 or 3, if you don't they are not likely to kill almost 600pts.

But you know, throwing 70 dice... is awesome!! :D

They don't need to kill 600 points. In fact, as long as you get 100 VP's from any source, they don't need to kill a single point. If they for example kill some archers and occupy half the opposing army (or a quarter, or a fifth), while your Lord/wizard/monster/chariot(s) kill some more, they can easily be worth it.

Don't they "only" have 60 attacks (40 front rank + 20 two back ranks)?

warplock
03-02-2013, 17:52
Don't they "only" have 60 attacks (40 front rank + 20 two back ranks)?

2 base attacks, +1 for AHW, +1 for frenzy, +1 for hysterical frenzy = 5, so 50 attacks for the front rank, and 70 attacks overall.

LordKrell
03-02-2013, 17:56
They don't need to kill 600 points. In fact, as long as you get 100 VP's from any source, they don't need to kill a single point. If they for example kill some archers and occupy half the opposing army (or a quarter, or a fifth), while your Lord/wizard/monster/chariot(s) kill some more, they can easily be worth it.

Don't they "only" have 60 attacks (40 front rank + 20 two back ranks)?

You're right. I don't keep in mind that now, not only big core warrior units are able to sweep everything in sight, so yes, Monsters & wizards can do some killing too.

Front rank is 2+1 (AHW) + 1 (frenzy) + 1 (Histerical frenzy which is the 3rd slaanesh lore spell) so 5 attacks per model. That add's +2 attacks to a unit already frenzied. Don't know what happens if they have lost a combat and lost frenzy... they get +2 or +1??

Xerkics
03-02-2013, 19:24
I was thinking what happens if you got a chaos lord with t6 s7 turn into daemon prince towards the end of the game? does he lose all the extra stats from the eye of the gods? do the gods punish him and nerf his stats?

Nubl0
03-02-2013, 19:28
Think you need to re read the daemonhood result.

Xerkics
03-02-2013, 19:36
Think you need to re read the daemonhood result.

So all the mutations go on top of dp basic stats? I missed the mutations bit.

Nubl0
03-02-2013, 19:44
Yup he retains all gifts and mutations as well as previous boons from the table. If it happens early on to your lord in game you end up with possibly THE hardest character in game, and if your wizard ascends then he also became pretty safe in combat. That said you do give up the VPs for your old lord when he ascends.

Xerkics
03-02-2013, 19:52
Do you think DP is viable at 1500 points or is Chaos Lord better since he can be in a unit? I mostly play vs brets or Ogres so dont really get anythig out of thunderstomp as there is hardly anything id be able to use it on.

Doommasters
03-02-2013, 20:27
Yup he retains all gifts and mutations as well as previous boons from the table. If it happens early on to your lord in game you end up with possibly THE hardest character in game, and if your wizard ascends then he also became pretty safe in combat. That said you do give up the VPs for your old lord when he ascends.

There is also an item that gives you a roughyl 1/6 chance of turning into a DP turn one for 10 points, see the face of your opponent when you get a DP with the hellfire sword ahd Helm of many eyes turn one would be priceless

Bigman
03-02-2013, 20:40
The concept of turning a lord into a DP is amazing on one level, but you forget you give up 360 odd VP's.

When you become a DP the original model "dies".

Happens early---good for us. Happens late, could lose you the game.

Still, I built this lord for cheap that I managed to fit in to 2400 with a cheap sorcerer lord-

CL tzeentch mark.
Soul hunger
Third eye
Scaly skin
Tak presv
Gw

2+ 3++. Reroll 1's ward. Unsaved wounds on 6 gains a wound.

5 attacks at str 7.


Or a more tooled up version as only lord character:-

CL steed, shield Third eye, soul feeder, poison slime,
Tak presv,sword of battle, ots.

389

1+ 3 ++, reroll 1's ward, 1/6 chance per wound to regain a wound, on a 6 auto wounds,
7 attacks str 5 hitting on 3's most, making reroll successful wards.

Either is a fairly decent way to spend your points!

snottlebocket
03-02-2013, 20:54
There is also an item that gives you a roughyl 1/6 chance of turning into a DP turn one for 10 points, see the face of your opponent when you get a DP with the hellfire sword ahd Helm of many eyes turn one would be priceless

He'd probably go "wooh, I got full victory points for your general at the start of the battle. And now you have a general who can't hide in units".

Zhul
03-02-2013, 21:46
Hey there all. I've just finished my first read through the new WoC army book, and I've got to say...I'm stoked. Very cool stuff, I'm loving it.

In a week's time, there's going to be a small tournament/campaign at my local Games Workshop, and I've decided to build up and paint the entire 1000 points I'll need for that during this week, and hopefully be ready for next Saturday. Anyway, I need some help in coming up with a 1000 point list, as there's so, so much variety and choice in our awesome new army book. However, I do have the glimmering start of a plan....

I'm looking for this initial 1000 points to be the starting, or core, part of a new WoC army for myself. I've also decided I'm really into chariots now, both the "normal" Chaos Chariot, and also the Gorebeast Chariot. In fact, I'm finding that I'm into a lot of the mounted options in the book. I wouldn't want to go so extreme as to go all mounted, of course (I like my infantry too!), but I'm thinking a goodly proportion of chariots and the like.

So, I definitely need a little hand in coming up with this 1000 point army at the moment...it's all just so much. I do know I want to have an Exalted mounted on a chariot (or Gorebeast chariot!)...that would be Krulmir the Scourge, Kurgan warleader and boss of my burgeoning little soon-to-be Chaos warband. Other than that, well, I have to fully admit I'm at a loss. I know it's quite vague, but any help from you lot in the right direction would be absolutely awesome. I'm a new Chaos Lord on a very tight schedule, and your help would go a long, long way in helping me get my starting 1000 point warband up and running in time to crush all before me. Not only that, but I'm sure the Dark Gods would be pleased if you assisted a fellow (aspiring) champion...

Thanks!

Zhul

I'm still looking for some help regarding this, so I thought I'd have a go at resurrecting it and see what happens. I've been giving some thought to some of the issues I'm having coming up with this 1000 point army list as well...

For starters, it looks like the best chariot option for my Exalted at this point would be a normal Chaos Chariot...that would leave me at least a few points leftover for a Mark and some other gear.

Core choices are boggling my mind at this point. I'd like a nice infantry unit, but can't really decide where to go with this one. Chaos Warriors? Forsaken?

In terms of Special choices, I'm thinking some Dragon Ogres would be cool, along with a Gorebeast Chariot, to support my Exalted on his own Chariot. There's so many absolutely awesome Special choices, though, it's really quite hard to know where to go, especially at such a low and limiting points level...it's all so good.

As for Rares, I've been eying some Skullcrushers...expensive, but absolutely devastating. I'm not quite sure I should be spending that many points on a Rare choice at 1000 points, but who knows...it might be entirely worth it.

Also, when it comes to Marks and the like, I'm entirely open to any of your advice...I can work with whatever you think would work best for me. So, all in all, I really need some help putting this 1000 point army list together, and would appreciate it hugely, chaps. Thanks!

Zhul

Jerak
03-02-2013, 21:55
hey guys!
I find it strange that no one has mentioned that one of our best units in the old book has been totally destroyed! What im talking about is the maruader hoard.

I ran a 40-50 man unit with great weapons and MoK in the old book and now that unit cost almost double the points. Not a happy bunny!

also no Lore of Heavens! :( :( Boo hiss!

Xerkics
03-02-2013, 21:58
well guess what nobody stopping you from running that marauder horde now you ll just have to spend the points and if its so critical to your army that you keep it you can still run them just have less points for something else. Im pretty glad the marauder hordes are more expensive.

Bigman
03-02-2013, 22:09
hey guys!
I find it strange that no one has mentioned that one of our best units in the old book has been totally destroyed! What im talking about is the maruader hoard.

I ran a 40-50 man unit with great weapons and MoK in the old book and now that unit cost almost double the points. Not a happy bunny!

also no Lore of Heavens! :( :( Boo hiss!

This hadn't been mentioned because everyone knew it was coming.

Someone ran the comparison that dwarf warrior with gw is 10 points, with some fiddle with the stats a frenzied (thus ITP) marauder is probably worth that.

6 points base is fair, with ini 4 and WS 4.
2 points per mark is also fair. (marks per model were always coming)
The equipment is maybe over priced by 1 point...but 8 points for example is probably too little for a unit that can in horse pump out 40 attacks for 360 points at WS 4.

8-9 would have been my sweet spot...indeed equipment for marauders could have been just made 1 pt cheaper.

Then again many chaos players have 40-50-100 marauders already. What GW wants is you to buy other stuff ;-)

Bigman
03-02-2013, 22:20
I'm still looking for some help regarding this, so I thought I'd have a go at resurrecting it and see what happens. I've been giving some thought to some of the issues I'm having coming up with this 1000 point army list as well...

For starters, it looks like the best chariot option for my Exalted at this point would be a normal Chaos Chariot...that would leave me at least a few points leftover for a Mark and some other gear.

Core choices are boggling my mind at this point. I'd like a nice infantry unit, but can't really decide where to go with this one. Chaos Warriors? Forsaken?

In terms of Special choices, I'm thinking some Dragon Ogres would be cool, along with a Gorebeast Chariot, to support my Exalted on his own Chariot. There's so many absolutely awesome Special choices, though, it's really quite hard to know where to go, especially at such a low and limiting points level...it's all so good.

As for Rares, I've been eying some Skullcrushers...expensive, but absolutely devastating. I'm not quite sure I should be spending that many points on a Rare choice at 1000 points, but who knows...it might be entirely worth it.

Also, when it comes to Marks and the like, I'm entirely open to any of your advice...I can work with whatever you think would work best for me. So, all in all, I really need some help putting this 1000 point army list together, and would appreciate it hugely, chaps. Thanks!

Zhul

1000 point list.

I wouldn't go too exotic at this level. At 1000 points the characters rarely do the heavy lifting, it's the army.

To lead - either an exalted or sorcerer lvl 2.

Hero -- foot or steed. Equipment --- scaly skin on foot-breath weapon mounted.
Halberd and dawn stone.

Sorcerer --- familiar. Lore --- nurgle / slannesh ( buffs /hexes are good at low levels)

Core--- ahw khorne or hdw-sh tz 15-16 fc roughly 320-330 points. Solid core! In fact take both units, which takes you to around 800.

Special / rare---3 Dogres / 3 skull crushers

At 1000 that set up would munch through everything. Warriors at low points fin they have less of a numbers problem, plus the fancy stuff that kills out of combat (warmachines/lvl4's/cannons/rate beasties) aren't fitted in.

Also that list provides a solid base for the next part.

Zhul
03-02-2013, 22:30
Cool, thanks Bigman! That actually looks pretty darn solid, and I think if I really put some time into this week, I could have such a force totally ready to hit the table this coming Saturday. Awesome, I like it!

Of course, my new and strange obsession with Chaos Chariots (must be the model kit...?) might force me to replace one of those Chaos Warrior units you suggested with a Chaos Chariot and a Gorebeast Chariot...maybe. We'll see. I do like the idea of having two nasty blocks of Warriors, though...

Say, theoretically, if you could only take one of the Chaos Warrior units you mentioned, which one would you pick first?

Thanks again, Bigman!

Zhul

Danny76
03-02-2013, 23:06
Hey all,
So I know HWS Warriors of Khorne aren't really the best option (Additional attacks being better for Khorne, and MoTz being better for HWS), but how useful would either one unit of 30 or 2 units of 15 be in lets say a 1000 point list?
Had these and painted them up just for a project, but was thinking of making a small list, but if these aren't useful, not sure I'd want to make a list from scratch.
Or maybe even just 1 unit of 15ish if so would still be not a total waste..
Thoughts?


EDIT: Or possibly at most one of the units of 15 I painted could pass as an unmarked HWS of 15, if that makes anything better?

Xerkics
03-02-2013, 23:55
i bought 2 chariots and i cant decide whether to build 2 chariots for core or 2 chariots for special. Or 1 each? i usually play vs brets or Ogres. Planning to run things with mostly mark of nurgle to take advantage of low ws for those.

Danny76
04-02-2013, 00:00
i bought 2 chariots and i cant decide whether to build 2 chariots for core or 2 chariots for special. Or 1 each? i usually play vs brets or Ogres. Planning to run things with mostly mark of nurgle to take advantage of low ws for those.

I was thinking, build up both front options and make it possible to magnetize both to the base..
Is it possible with the kit?

Xerkics
04-02-2013, 00:27
I was thinking, build up both front options and make it possible to magnetize both to the base..
Is it possible with the kit?

i was thinking that also but they have different kind of reigns for the gorebeast and the horses so i dont think you can do that.

Danny76
04-02-2013, 00:42
Build the reigns onto each beast - then just don't glue the point where the reigns contact the chariot piece?
Looks to be a point where one turns into the other as it were. I'd cut it there, then position the creatures so that point lines up with both options when they get stuck onto the base.
The in hands reign bit is the same piece so that stays on the chariot up to about halfway along the reigns perhaps?

SlaaneshSlave
04-02-2013, 01:04
Are skullcrushers ever a better choice than the same points of Khorne marked knights?

Seems more attacks per the same points and frontage and armor save.

Xerkics
04-02-2013, 01:37
Are skullcrushers ever a better choice than the same points of Khorne marked knights?

Seems more attacks per the same points and frontage and armor save.

Well they are different choices but think about it skullcrusher with 3 wounds is less than double the points of a knight who has just the 1. So on wounds alone skullcrusher is better value ,nm juggernaut who is really aggressive. You lose 2 wounds you lose 2 knights while crusher will still stay there. And they are immune to killing blow while knights arent.

kramplarv
04-02-2013, 01:59
at 75pts per model I think the crushers are less good than knights. But that could also be my personal playing style/my local meta. I think that almost all units which exceeds 250pts are to expensive to field. And even tgough the crushers are heavy hitters they will probably have a hard time fighting what they want to fight. And thus, I've spent a lot of points on something which isn't effective.

5 knights, lances and MoK is extremely good. They are cheap, hit very hard, kan smash up most of the monsters in the game. And even if they die, they only give up 230points. And instead of having 4-5 crushers in one unit, I can have two of these cheaper knight units. Which makes them twice as effective. (with some practise, one could get very good results from frenzied marauder horsemen also.)

Doommasters
04-02-2013, 02:08
hey guys!
I find it strange that no one has mentioned that one of our best units in the old book has been totally destroyed! What im talking about is the maruader hoard.

I ran a 40-50 man unit with great weapons and MoK in the old book and now that unit cost almost double the points. Not a happy bunny!

also no Lore of Heavens! :( :( Boo hiss!

It was overpowered before now you have to pay for all those s5 attacks, maybe a little too much hard to tell just yet.

Kayosiv
04-02-2013, 02:15
Skull Crushers are basically twice as expensive as knights. For twice the price, you get 3 times the wounds and twice the attacks. They are still a great deal.

Juggers get the following.

strength 5 stomps.

higher weaponskill and strength than the horses of knights.

Strength 6 on the charge even without lances for half the attacks.

TsukeFox
04-02-2013, 02:28
Skull Crushers are basically twice as expensive as knights. For twice the price, you get 3 times the wounds and twice the attacks. They are still a great deal.

Juggers get the following.

strength 5 stomps.

higher weaponskill and strength than the horses of knights.

Strength 6 on the charge even without lances for half the attacks.

And add a hero on a Jugger with the stubborn cap and life is pretty hard for any opponent.

Sh4d0w
04-02-2013, 03:41
And add a hero on a Jugger with the stubborn cap and life is pretty hard for any opponent.

You aren't wrong, hopefully things like that won't show up in my area because for some armies, it really is impossible to take out.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-02-2013, 04:49
warplock & Lord Krell: Thanks, missed the spell, still too new.



Do you think DP is viable at 1500 points or is Chaos Lord better since he can be in a unit?


Against THE shooty army, any LoS will be of some help. I think you'd be best served by a wizard.

Dirty Mac
04-02-2013, 05:38
The concept of turning a lord into a DP is amazing on one level, but you forget you give up 360 odd VP's.

When you become a DP the original model "dies".

Happens early---good for us. Happens late, could lose you the game.

Still, I built this lord for cheap that I managed to fit in to 2400 with a cheap sorcerer lord-

CL tzeentch mark.
Soul hunger
Third eye
Scaly skin
Tak presv
Gw

2+ 3++. Reroll 1's ward. Unsaved wounds on 6 gains a wound.

5 attacks at str 7.


Or a more tooled up version as only lord character:-

CL steed, shield Third eye, soul feeder, poison slime,
Tak presv,sword of battle, ots.

389

1+ 3 ++, reroll 1's ward, 1/6 chance per wound to regain a wound, on a 6 auto wounds,
7 attacks str 5 hitting on 3's most, making reroll successful wards.

Either is a fairly decent way to spend your points!

The wording for Soul Feeder states that you only re-gain a lost wound, it would be OP otherwise.

Doommasters
04-02-2013, 06:16
The wording for Soul Feeder states that you only re-gain a lost wound, it would be OP otherwise.

That is what i was meaning I am nit much a of a rules writer as you can see

Bigman
04-02-2013, 06:43
Cool, thanks Bigman! That actually looks pretty darn solid, and I think if I really put some time into this week, I could have such a force totally ready to hit the table this coming Saturday. Awesome, I like it!

Of course, my new and strange obsession with Chaos Chariots (must be the model kit...?) might force me to replace one of those Chaos Warrior units you suggested with a Chaos Chariot and a Gorebeast Chariot...maybe. We'll see. I do like the idea of having two nasty blocks of Warriors, though...

Say, theoretically, if you could only take one of the Chaos Warrior units you mentioned, which one would you pick first?

Thanks again, Bigman!

Zhul

Tzeentch warriors. If you take chariots you will have hard hitting. Hws warriors are the least hitty, but they won't die in combat as readily. At 1000 you should be facing between 1-3 combat units of roughly 20-35 models. They should beat that down.

Qemist
04-02-2013, 09:39
I'm thinking of running this:


Sorcerer Lord
Mark of Tzeentch, Flaming Breath, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Dispell scroll, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation, sword of might,
lvl 4, disc of tzeentch
xxxpts

Exalted Hero
BSB, Shield, Armour of Destiny, Scaled Skin, Mark of Nurgle
xxxpts

17 Chaos Warriors
Full command, Mark of Nurgle, shields
xxxpts

17 Chaos Warriors
Full command, Mark of Nurgle, Shields
xxxpts

5 warhounds
xxpts

Chimera
regen, flame breath
xxxpts

Chimera
regen, flame breath
xxxpts

Hellcannon
xxx

Chariot, mark of nurgle
xxxpts

Chariot, mark of nurgle
xxxpts

Gorebeast chariot
xxxpts

2500pts (well, just under.)

However I'm thinking it might be worth it to lose the 2nd chimera and take a unit of 3 skullcrushers instead. There's so many things I'd like to fit into the list I'm having issues. I guess I *could* drop the 2 chariots too but I like the hitting power of chariots, even if they're core. Alternatively I could drop one unit of warriors, beef the existing up a little and make some points back there.

I'm also not happy with the disc lord. I'm thinking of running him to be more killy, without the dispel scroll. I kinda refuse to use a scroll caddy because that's another 150pts or so that you could be using to put more offensive models on the board.

Qemist
04-02-2013, 09:54
double post, crap browser. sry.

Althwen
04-02-2013, 16:53
Gimmicky Lord

Khorne Lord
-Barded steed
-Shield
-Hellfire sword
-Helm of many eyes
-Flaming Breath
-Soul feeder
-Potion of recklessness/Chalice of chaos

OK, this guy is only sporting his natural T5 and a 1+ save for defence, but he might be fun to charge into a biggish infantry unit.
He has 6 flaming attacks that have a chance of exploding and causing additional wounds. Potion of Recklessness for more attacks on charge, or Chalice for giggles (and extra effects). If you lose a wound, use the breath weapon in the following round and wait for Soul Feeder to trigger on all of those wounds. :)

inq.serge
04-02-2013, 17:23
Awesome build.

Nice to see a "High Offence / Low Defence" build.

Bigman
04-02-2013, 17:44
As it should be for khorne. Although swap out breath, get collar for added fluff. :-)

LordKrell
04-02-2013, 18:45
As it should be for khorne. Although swap out breath, get collar for added fluff. :-)

Or dawnstone if khorne really wants him alive :D

Althwen
04-02-2013, 20:17
No way...those are all defensive items that would diminish his killiness... MOAR SKULZZZ

Galley
04-02-2013, 21:03
Just a couple of reactions to the new codex, affecting overall tactics:


- Banners are really slim pickings now.
- Really rarefied artifacts now. It's nice to have demonic gifts that are more affordable and somewhat more useable, but it's still a rough selection overall.

As far as tactics go, I'm interested in these days seeing what our fast cav can do. Knights are still fairly 'meh' in my opinion, but Skullcrushers fill that void easily. With marauder horsemen a bit more affordable, I'm looking to run them more as well as running the 'new' slaanesh unit. Most importantly though, I'm looking forward to mobile sorcerers. General tactic I'm looking to try out is:

Unit of Skullcrushers
Unit of Marauders (at least 5, maybe 10 to up support potential) with spears (I miss axes...) and flails, maybe MoN or MoS for increased survival.
Seeker unit of 5+
Nurgle sorcerer x 1-2 with signature spell.

General idea is to harass units with marauders and support with disrupting charges on the flanks; seeker units make a beeline for war machines. Skullcrushers take the main charges head-on with the marauders, and the sorcerers soften up heavy armor units with their stream of corruption while hanging out with the marauders (near, not in, so they can still do swift reforms and vanguard moves).

We'll see how it goes.

White_13oy
04-02-2013, 22:49
So does MoK still give mounts the bonus attack from frenzy since its purchased for the whole model?

Doommasters
04-02-2013, 23:22
Just a couple of reactions to the new codex, affecting overall tactics:


- Banners are really slim pickings now.
- Really rarefied artifacts now. It's nice to have demonic gifts that are more affordable and somewhat more useable, but it's still a rough selection overall.

As far as tactics go, I'm interested in these days seeing what our fast cav can do. Knights are still fairly 'meh' in my opinion, but Skullcrushers fill that void easily. With marauder horsemen a bit more affordable, I'm looking to run them more as well as running the 'new' slaanesh unit. Most importantly though, I'm looking forward to mobile sorcerers. General tactic I'm looking to try out is:

Unit of Skullcrushers
Unit of Marauders (at least 5, maybe 10 to up support potential) with spears (I miss axes...) and flails, maybe MoN or MoS for increased survival.
Seeker unit of 5+
Nurgle sorcerer x 1-2 with signature spell.

General idea is to harass units with marauders and support with disrupting charges on the flanks; seeker units make a beeline for war machines. Skullcrushers take the main charges head-on with the marauders, and the sorcerers soften up heavy armor units with their stream of corruption while hanging out with the marauders (near, not in, so they can still do swift reforms and vanguard moves).

We'll see how it goes.

Why are knights average?

They always seem to do well when I see them on the table; hard hitting even when not charging, decent leadership, 1+ save, not frenzy and you can run 5 230pts or so not to mention mark them nurgle and the are -1 to hit combat. Ok they don't get stomps but they are are prefect on a flank and can't be ignored.

Skullcrushers are killing machines but get ready to be redirected and forced to overrun into terrible positions not to mention they are rather expensive. Knights are solid dangerous and not expensive for what you get.

Icarus81
05-02-2013, 00:24
I think people expect knights to be a hammer when they are an anvil. SCs are a hammer.

Nubl0
05-02-2013, 00:30
Huh saying that though, regular chaos knights put most other knights to shame in terms of killing power, infact I'm pretty sure similarly costed units of khorne knights will outfight mournfang if they get the charge. Sometimes I wounder if SC are abit overkill for most stuff.

Galley
05-02-2013, 01:45
Why are knights average?

They always seem to do well when I see them on the table; hard hitting even when not charging, decent leadership, 1+ save, not frenzy and you can run 5 230pts or so not to mention mark them nurgle and the are -1 to hit combat. Ok they don't get stomps but they are are prefect on a flank and can't be ignored.

Skullcrushers are killing machines but get ready to be redirected and forced to overrun into terrible positions not to mention they are rather expensive. Knights are solid dangerous and not expensive for what you get.

Unit of SC with full command and encsorcled aren't much more expensive than a unit of knights. The differential is negligible considering all the stat and ability differences.
Consider:

Knights

1+ save
Fear



Skullcrushers

+1 Save
Fear
Murderous Charge
Daemonic attacks
Higher mount WS
Higher mount Wounds
Higher mount Strength
Stomp



That's not even getting into mark-specific bonuses.

Anyways, frenzy limitations aside, we're talking about 2 units and neither can disrupt on a side charge, both can 'anvil' with comparable skill when you talk about wounds VS. nurgle mark. Frenzy is always an issue, but there are answers. Regardless, knights compared to crushers isn't apples to oranges, it's clementines to oranges. Knights are good, won't argue that. Crushers are just flat out better.
264

Doommasters
05-02-2013, 01:52
Unit of SC with full command and encsorcled aren't much more expensive than a unit of knights. The differential is negligible considering all the stat and ability differences.
Consider:

Knights

1+ save
Fear



Skullcrushers

+1 Save
Fear
Murderous Charge
Daemonic attacks
Higher mount WS
Higher mount Wounds
Higher mount Strength



That's not even getting into mark-specific bonuses.

Anyways, frenzy limitations aside, we're talking about 2 units and neither can disrupt on a side charge, both can 'anvil' with comparable skill when you talk about wounds VS. nurgle mark. Frenzy is always an issue, but there are answers. Regardless, knights compared to crushers isn't apples to oranges, it's clementines to oranges. Knights are good, won't argue that. Crushers are just flat out better.
264

I don't think they are better for the simple fact they have Frenzy, yes they hit harder they might last longer and they kill more. But they are in the rare section and have frenzy. I tend not to look at pure stats in unit versus unit and see how they play on the table. Knights got exactly where you want them, SC need screening units and a poor enemy general to become the combat beasts they look like on paper.

Please note i do not think SC are bad they are infact very very good, I just really don't like frenzy on my go to hard hitting unit when playing experienced people.

Ayin
05-02-2013, 03:08
So, there is not really much competition then between Knights and Skullcrushers if you were planning on marking Knights with Khorne anyways? That's dissapointing, and I have no issue with a rare being better than a special choice when both are designed for the same thing, but the points cost similarity just hurts. Would anyone say there is a role for Khorne Knights that cannot be done better and for a similar points by Skullcrushers?

Doommasters
05-02-2013, 03:29
So, there is not really much competition then between Knights and Skullcrushers if you were planning on marking Knights with Khorne anyways? That's dissapointing, and I have no issue with a rare being better than a special choice when both are designed for the same thing, but the points cost similarity just hurts. Would anyone say there is a role for Khorne Knights that cannot be done better and for a similar points by Skullcrushers?


If you mark knights with khorne you would be better off with skull crushers as you are taking away the main advantage knights have which is not being frenzy.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-02-2013, 05:05
Why are knights average?

They always seem to do well when I see them on the table; hard hitting even when not charging, decent leadership, 1+ save, not frenzy and you can run 5 230pts or so ... Skullcrushers are killing machines but get ready to be redirected and forced to overrun into terrible positions not to mention they are rather expensive.

How are they rather expensive when three of them cost less than those five Knights? I'm not seeing that. Knights really don't have any role anymore.

Ayin
05-02-2013, 05:12
Alright, I have already got myself emotionally invested in the Blood God, so, a mostly Khorne army, how viable is it? I don't see anything flat out stopping me from pulling it off, and the use of a few non-marked units is not out of the question either for me, so that would help. Things I think I will need:

-Hounds. Lots of hounds. Like, 4+ units of 5. I see hounds as something I will have to use to prevent my own charges, seeing as I am going to be running with so much frenzy. Is it possible to use them to help control your own side of the board, or just not worth the points?

-Warriors. Almost finished my first block of 18 with Halberds and shields. I am currently thinking I should have modeled them with Great Weapons. I don't want to lose that I5 awesomeness, but I look at my force and realize between the Knights with EW, the Marauders with GW and the warriors with halberds, everything I have (minus hounds) is S5, which is not bad, but am I going to need a unit with higher S than that to crack armour? Also, small units of Warriors with MoK and 2xHW, not super expensive, still capable of doing a lot of damage to lighter units, worth it?

-Marauders. I JUST finished converting a unit of 45 our of Empire Flagellants and a corpse cart, converted to look like crazy cultists including scarcrow like stitched masks, a back rank with torches and whips and the rest wielding a two handed woodsmens axes. There is no way they are NOT going in. However, what about smaller units? A small unit of say 10 (6x4) with MoK and flails could be a great one to add damage to a flank or even just put some wounds onto enemy units. Do they have a place, or just better to go with the Horsemen?

-Knights. I have 10, painting them now. Seeing as I am already invested in their being Khorne (due to the red), two units of 5 makes the most sense? Want to minimize the number of attacks lost by being in the second rank, and adds more targets to the field

-Characters. I am probably going to need a BSB to try and keep things in check, so there's hero number 1. From there, a Lord with better leadership would seem to be the next obvious choice, but where to put him? Throw him in the Marauder horde, perhaps? That way they will hopefully absorb loads of fire, can still do great damage and support him in combat. Or do the Warriors need him for some higher Strength attacks? Running him alone as a Jugernaught rider seems an interesting choice, so he could go where needed, but oh the cannonballs/spells he would draw...


Lastly, since it seems like Khorne gets no optional protection against magic (no channeling dispel for the characters or anything? Really?), Is it worth it trying to make an entirely counter-magic caster, or better to just suck it up and take a wizard? I realize taking NO magic is just a huge handicap, but do the points saved and re-invested into the army by doing so even remotely balance it out?

inq.serge
05-02-2013, 06:14
Seeker unit of 5+


My favourite unit, but they only work in units of 9+ with an Ex-champ (or better character up front). The most cost-effective character is a slaaneshi ex-champ, with flail, steed of slaanesh and helm of many eyes, costing a warhound unit below 200.


So does MoK still give mounts the bonus attack from frenzy since its purchased for the whole model?
Yes. I'd say so, why else would the SC have frenzy (riders only) written on them?


So, there is not really much competition then between Knights and Skullcrushers if you were planning on marking Knights with Khorne anyways? That's dissapointing, and I have no issue with a rare being better than a special choice when both are designed for the same thing, but the points cost similarity just hurts. Would anyone say there is a role for Khorne Knights that cannot be done better and for a similar points by Skullcrushers?

Charging units in buildings. The mounts are the big difference, and not only can't the mounts attack, MC let only 3 riders attack, while cav lets all 5-6 knights attack.

Doommasters
05-02-2013, 06:18
How are they rather expensive when three of them cost less than those five Knights? I'm not seeing that. Knights really don't have any role anymore.

If they get redirected and forced to overun into bad positions they can be taken out of the game by good players (not everytime but enough to make some people not play them). Knghts go where you want when you want and as a flanking unit do decent damage in terms of combat potential. I don't know I just like knights over SC's because I find them more reliable and I don't use knights to grind out combats like SC's can.

Vaktathi
05-02-2013, 07:34
So, anyone else manage to find this ridiculous combo yet?

Lord, MoT, Scaled Skin Mutation, Third Eye of Tzeentch, Dawnstone, Armor of Destiny, Sword of Swift Slaying, shield, and a mount.

Unless I borked something here, that's a Chaos Lord sporting a rerollable 1+ armor save with a 3+ ward that rerolls 1's, and an ASF magic weapon. :p

LordKrell
05-02-2013, 07:43
Cool combo! lacks of offensiveness but a mount with thunderstomp can match him well. Which mount would you use for such a though lord?

N1AK
05-02-2013, 07:51
The last part might seem good, but when you have a model that causes 3 or more st5 attacks, you don't want to waste it on a cheap T3 W1 champ, even if you can get a stat increase for doing it. Breaking the opponent is slightly more important, and you loose only 1A for not having a champ.


You can get up to 6CR due to overkill from butchering that 1W champion so unless steadfast is an issue (but only by a couple of models) it's unlikely being locked in a champion challenge is that big an issue. In return getting a stat bump means you're even more likely to defeat opponent characters in later challenges. Obviously you should be checking whether units have champions at the start of the game and accounting for this in your tactics.

Vaktathi
05-02-2013, 07:55
Not entirely sure, still trying to think on how to build a Lord into an army well. A Disc could have some potential, stick him on there and have him go medium monster/warmachine hunting and generally just being a big scary unkillable annoying ****stick and then dive him into the flanks of combats your Warriors hit the fronts of. Sticking him on a plain barded steed and joining a unit of Knights sounds rather plain but may have some use, though unfortunately MoT on Knights isn't particularly ultra useful :p

Alternatively, one could drop the MoT for MoK, drop a bit of the sillyness of the Ward for some increased killyness, stick him on a Jugger, put him in with a unit of Skullcrushers, and have a big, scary battering ram.

Morkash
05-02-2013, 07:57
Wow, Vaktathi, that's one nasty combination. I'd put this guy maybe on a Gorebeast chariot and just letting him tank. Or the good old Disc of Tzeentch, of course... :) Nasty, nasty!

N1AK
05-02-2013, 08:14
How are they rather expensive when three of them cost less than those five Knights? I'm not seeing that. Knights really don't have any role anymore.

I also think the Knight vs Skullcrusher debate falls on the side of SCs but Knights do have some benefits:
1/ Don't have to be frenzied
2/ Lose less points to typical high strength single attacks (Cannons, Bolt Throwers, Death Snipes etc)
3/ A smaller footprint (though not much)
4/ Better at assaulting buildings
5/ Better for protecting characters that join them
6/ Being special and not rare

If I had the points spare in my rare allowance I'd choose Skullcrushers but if I wanted to use my rare allowance for something else I'd seriously consider Knights.

Vaktathi
05-02-2013, 08:17
I forgot about Chariots, one of those could work out quite fun as well with some extra killy power.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-02-2013, 08:42
Okay, so I managed to tie my brain into a knot. Can anyone explain to me the relation between special rules, different mounts, split profiles that partly aren't used and the whole multi-model-multi-part-model thingy?

More to the point, if for example I buy MoK for a chariot, does it have 6 S5 and 4 S4?

adurell
05-02-2013, 09:12
After such a short time, what is the general opinion, is this a good book in terms of both power level and/or viable builds variety?

Lord Solar Plexus
05-02-2013, 09:18
Looks much better than Empire IMO.

inq.serge
05-02-2013, 09:23
You can get up to 6CR due to overkill from butchering that 1W champion so unless steadfast is an issue (but only by a couple of models) it's unlikely being locked in a champion challenge is that big an issue. In return getting a stat bump means you're even more likely to defeat opponent characters in later challenges. Obviously you should be checking whether units have champions at the start of the game and accounting for this in your tactics.

Thanks, I'll add that.

Akkaryn
05-02-2013, 10:09
Having tried the monster madness list I think I'm going to be going to try an Msu list. Using the lore of slaanesh to help control the moment of the other army.

Thinking of multiple blocks of 10 Warriors with a champion. Then stick a shrine in there to try and get some daemon Princes up and running. Maybe the mutalith to draw out some dispel dice.

Danny76
05-02-2013, 10:24
Anybody have any thoughts on how best to use the following list in 1k?

Nurgle level 2 sorcerer, familiar
15 Warriors, MoN, HWS
15 Warriors, MoTz, HWS
3 Dragon Ogres, GreatWeapons

The remaining bit of points is for the characters items, just not sure what to give him yet.
Any thoughts on how you'd use it.
Opponents would not be tournament level. Generally a mix between fluffy and our average type list.

Thinking of using the DOgres to flank hit stuff to assist the warriors and/or take out smaller units,fast cav, warmachines etc.

lordlorien
05-02-2013, 10:28
Okay, so I managed to tie my brain into a knot. Can anyone explain to me the relation between special rules, different mounts, split profiles that partly aren't used and the whole multi-model-multi-part-model thingy?

More to the point, if for example I buy MoK for a chariot, does it have 6 S5 and 4 S4?

I am pretty certain that you will get exactly that with a MoK on a chariot (though if you by a chariot for an MoK character, you would have to buy the mark again for the chariot). The chariot as a whole is a single model. That includes the Chariot itself (MoK has no use here ... well apart from having to charge and overrun), the Charioteers (who get an additional attack each so 3S5 Attacks each), and the horses (2S4 Attacks each). So basically pretty killy for the price of 4 hound units.

It is a little tricky with the skullcrushers. The rules say that only the knight on top has the MoK special rule. It is right there in the profile so special ruling defeats the more general rule. Meaning the Knight on top has 3S4-6 Attacks while frenzied. The Jugger stays at his profile number of 3 attacks per model. The whole thing changes though if you stick the Banner of rage into the unit. It can be taken since it is a MoK type unit. The banner than adds to all models in the unit the frenzy special rule as long as they did not have it already. So the Juggs do not have Frenzy so far but get it from the banner which brings em up to 4 attacks a piece. Since it is a banner the unit can take on their standard bearer and having to overrun already from the knights on top being frenzied, i really think this a good alternative at slightly under the cost of a hound unit. I will run 5 crushers with BSB added on in a 3x2 Formation. They kinda took the spot of my MoK, halberd warriors in the list.

inq.serge
05-02-2013, 10:35
The whole thing changes though if you stick the Banner of rage into the unit. It can be taken since it is a MoK type unit. The banner than adds to all models in the unit the frenzy special rule as long as they did not have it already. So the Juggs do not have Frenzy so far but get it from the banner which brings em up to 4 attacks a piece. Since it is a banner the unit can take on their standard bearer and having to overrun already from the knights on top being frenzied, i really think this a good alternative at slightly under the cost of a hound unit. I will run 5 crushers with BSB added on in a 3x2 Formation. They kinda took the spot of my MoK, halberd warriors in the list.

Unfortunately, the banner of rage does no longer give frenzy. If a unit had frenzy and lost it, it will regain it, but since the juggers never did, they'll never gain it from the banner of Rage.

lordlorien
05-02-2013, 10:37
Anybody have any thoughts on how best to use the following list in 1k?

Nurgle level 2 sorcerer, familiar
15 Warriors, MoN, HWS
15 Warriors, MoTz, HWS
3 Dragon Ogres, GreatWeapons

The remaining bit of points is for the characters items, just not sure what to give him yet.
Any thoughts on how you'd use it.
Opponents would not be tournament level. Generally a mix between fluffy and our average type list.

Thinking of using the DOgres to flank hit stuff to assist the warriors and/or take out smaller units,fast cav, warmachines etc.

Looks kinda fun to play with. When I calculated correctly without having a book at hand you should have 150ish points left. Unfortunatly BSB wont fit with the sorcerer in the hero department already. So I would add 2x5 hounds, a charmed shield, and a magic weapon (for ethereals) on the sorcerer, and maybe flaming banner on a unit of warriors. That should bring you close to 1000 points. Next thing to add when going up to 1500 point battles is a BSB exalted hero really.

lordlorien
05-02-2013, 10:39
Unfortunately, the banner of rage does no longer give frenzy. If a unit had frenzy and lost it, it will regain it, but since the juggers never did, they'll never gain it from the banner of Rage.

Yak I missed a word there and unfortunatly you seem to be right ;(.

Ayin
05-02-2013, 10:58
Looks much better than Empire IMO.

Agree 100%, not that it is 'better' as in 'more powerful', but just better done.

Danny76
05-02-2013, 11:15
Looks kinda fun to play with. When I calculated correctly without having a book at hand you should have 150ish points left. Unfortunatly BSB wont fit with the sorcerer in the hero department already. So I would add 2x5 hounds, a charmed shield, and a magic weapon (for ethereals) on the sorcerer, and maybe flaming banner on a unit of warriors. That should bring you close to 1000 points. Next thing to add when going up to 1500 point battles is a BSB exalted hero really.

Oh really, I'm at work and went by memory but I thought that must've been around 950 ish.
That is a useful amount of points if so.
Hounds could be a great idea, I did really want some chaff types in there, and I have about 10 VC wolves that I've been needing to do something with (Nurgle Hounds could be awesome with a bit if work).

Do you think two units of Nurgle Warriors would be just as good as one Nurgle one Tzeentch?
I could do a mono Nurgle list then...

Yeah I think first thing when moving up to 1500 will be BSB. I never run my VC and Empire without, but here the points were too few..

Thanks for the advice so far!

Lord Solar Plexus
05-02-2013, 11:17
I am pretty certain that you will get exactly that with a MoK on a chariot (though if you by a chariot for an MoK character, you would have to buy the mark again for the chariot). The chariot as a whole is a single model. That includes the Chariot itself (MoK has no use here ... well apart from having to charge and overrun), the Charioteers (who get an additional attack each so 3S5 Attacks each), and the horses (2S4 Attacks each). So basically pretty killy for the price of 4 hound units.


That's pretty much what I figured (and how I've played it in the past) bar the part where you say the chariot is one model. If it is one model, it should only get +1 additional attack....but never mind, that's probably more a question for the rules section.


Unfortunately, the banner of rage does no longer give frenzy. If a unit had frenzy and lost it, it will regain it, but since the juggers never did, they'll never gain it from the banner of Rage.

See, that's part of my problem: The unit of SC's never had frenzy either, only parts of models. Or is that the same as the unit? It cannot be since you differentiate between its constituent parts...and if that is so, then I don't see how the other parts (riders) would regain frenzy; they're not the unit.

It's quite confusing.

lordlorien
05-02-2013, 11:27
That's pretty much what I figured (and how I've played it in the past) bar the part where you say the chariot is one model. If it is one model, it should only get +1 additional attack....but never mind, that's probably more a question for the rules section.

Yup rules section it is but one last comment to get back on my feet after that wrong thing with the SC Banner of rage assesment ;).

Chariot would get one more attack i guess but it has a stat profile in the Attacks section of "-" and not "0" so if something cannot attack at all, it can't get more attacks. Impact hits aren't really attacks as far as i see it.

BlackPawl
05-02-2013, 11:30
Yes, that it is. Another question for me is if you target a unit of SC or the marauder riding slaneesh beast with a damage spell from the lore of light - did you get the extra damage because the beast are deamons (with deamonic attacks) or did you not get it because the riders are humans?

Lord Solar Plexus
05-02-2013, 12:02
Without having access to my books I *think* that the attribute comes into play against models with the special rule daemonic, which neither the model nor any of its parts has. D. instability, D. attacks, D. ward, aura and whatnot alone is not enough to trigger it.

There's been quite a debate about whether DP's are daemons or daemonic, from claims that those terms do not exist to claims that the cover of a book is to be used in rules debates...so yes, someone should clear up this mess.

Come to think of it, the Lore of Light says Daemons, not Daemonic. From a fluff point of view, Slaanesh beasts are daemons. From a rules point of view, they don't seem to be daemons. Perhaps someone else can supply something more concrete?

Shadow_Steed
05-02-2013, 13:11
Hellcannon

I am not really bothered with the Hellcannons reduced movement. The only time I move it is due to failed LD test. And now it have 3d6 towards the nearest enemy unit. Meaning that it can charge in every direction amarite?

Akkaryn
05-02-2013, 13:14
I suspect this was intentional on the part of GW. People will buy daemon Princes and the like because of these loop holes. Then once sales have gone up enough I would be very very surprised if they don't get errated to be daemonic.

But hey call me a sinic.

Althwen
05-02-2013, 13:22
I think there's another factor that might cause me grief in the future. And that is the removal of the Will of Chaos. I'm not too bummed about this, it's just that it's now far from safe to have a couple of units of dogs in the vicinity of other big units that are not Slaanesh/Khorne/sporting a BSB.

One of my other armies is Wood Elves, and from their point of view I can say that picking out those small dogs units from between the lines and forcing panic tests on the other units has become a prime target.

Havock
05-02-2013, 13:39
Unfortunately, the banner of rage does no longer give frenzy. If a unit had frenzy and lost it, it will regain it, but since the juggers never did, they'll never gain it from the banner of Rage.

This makes the Banner of Rage situational at best, and you would probably be better off with something else.



Hellcannon

I am not really bothered with the Hellcannons reduced movement. The only time I move it is due to failed LD test. And now it have 3d6 towards the nearest enemy unit. Meaning that it can charge in every direction amarite?

Just the way it was. It just can't voluntarily charge as far as it previously did (3 inches less to be precise).
It's arguably still better though; it has a double 5+ save against cannons for one :p

lordlorien
05-02-2013, 14:01
Unfortunatly I forgot my basic rulebook at home before leaving for the week out of town. Since Banner of Rage seems not of much use anymore (if SC loose Frenzy I kinda guess they are in more trouble than can be helped with anyways) I kinda need a new banner to try. Was always thinking bout trying the Ranger's Standard for some surprise charges through dangerous terrain ;). Might be fun for a game or too if the enemy does not realize it before you charge him while he thinks himself safe.

Cheaper and because of lack of good banners for a unit that does not really need much combat support would be the Banner of Swiftness (+1 Move). Not great but really cheap and therefore usable.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
05-02-2013, 14:08
Cheaper and because of lack of good banners for a unit that does not really need much combat support would be the Banner of Swiftness (+1 Move). Not great but really cheap and therefore usable.

I'd rate that banner on SC quite highly myself, gets rid of their main disadvantage against Mournfangs.

Furor Teutonicus
05-02-2013, 17:50
Mounts do not gain an additional attack from rage. Page 82 under the heading "Cavalry and Special Rules" (at least in the German rulebook). Therefore I'm pretty sure the horses pulling a chariot (and the chariot itself) will not gain an extra attack if the rider/charioteer has rage.

I might be wrong, but I've never seen it played otherwise. And I know my usual opponents would only laugh at me and say "nice try" if I'd suggest the horses would also profit from rage.

inq.serge
05-02-2013, 18:56
ASFAIK; If a character has frenzy, then his mount won't get the extra attack, but the knights aren't characters and their mounts aren't bought separately, they are a single multi-part model, and in those instances both the parts get the extra attack, and that's why the juggerknight rules say "Riders Only"

Furor Teutonicus
05-02-2013, 19:09
Page 82 (in the German rule book) doesn't differentiate between character-riders and "normal" riders. In neither case the mount gets the extra attack.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
05-02-2013, 19:15
Page 82 (in the German rule book) doesn't differentiate between character-riders and "normal" riders. In neither case the mount gets the extra attack.

The thing is, when you buy the Mark of Khorne for an already mounted model, there is no distinction that it is applied only to the rider.

There have been numerous thread on this subject in the past though, and none of them have had any resolution as far as I'm aware.

inq.serge
05-02-2013, 19:34
The thing is, when you buy the Mark of Khorne for an already mounted model, there is no distinction that it is applied only to the rider.

That's what I was trying to say.

There's only one way to solve it, and that's to mail the FAQ, which I just did.

shakedown47
05-02-2013, 20:29
I'd say the safest thing to do in the meantime would be to take a cue from the Skullcrusher entry and just play it as mounts not getting an extra attack; that way you are basing your opinion on precedence and not rules-lawyering that will lead to a discussion/argument with every opponent every single game, as well as being sure in the knowledge that, at worst, you're gimping yourself an infinitesimally small amount as opposed to having to come to terms with a sneaking feeling that you're getting away with something.

GenerationTerrorist
05-02-2013, 21:42
Righty, I've had a sit down and tinker with some potential Lord builds for my Tzeentch themed armies.
The Daemon Prince probably won't be used, as it is a bit too much of a hybrid fighter/caster (doing neither as well as the mortal versions listed below it) and maybe too many eggs in a single basket.
Feel free to criticise.

Here goes:

Daemon Prince (550pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Chaos Armour, Lvl4 (Tzeentch)
Scaled Skin
Soul Feeder
Flaming Breath
Poisonous Slime
Dragon Helm
The Other Tricksters Shard

Summary: 1+/5++ (re-rolling 1++) flying monster with poisoned attacks, an S4 flaming template and the ability to regenerate wounds on a 6+ for each wound caused. Forces models in base contact to re-roll successful ward saves.

Chaos Lord (395pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Disk of Tzeentch
Soul Feeder
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Flaming Breath
Talisman of Preservation
Enchanted Shield
Sword of Anti-Heroes
The Other Tricksters Shard

Summary: 1+/3++ (re-rolling 1++) flyer with an S4 flaming template and the ability to regenerate wounds on a 6+ for each wound caused. 5 S5 attacks, with both S and A increasing by +1 for each enemy character in the unit he is in base contact with, plus 3 S4 flaming attacks from the Disk. Forces models in base contact to re-roll successful ward saves. I think this guy could be the perfect all-rounder, able to take on units and characters with equal efficiency. I'd run him up a flank with my 14-strong MoT Knight bus, close enough so he would also get a LOS roll for even more protection from Cannons, etc.

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (360pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Disk of Tzeentch, Lvl4 (Metal)
Chaos Familiar
Scaled skin
Armour of Destiny

Summary: 2+/3++ flyer. Channels on 5+ (re-rolling on 1). Uses his 5 spells from the Lore of Metal to both buff and de-buff. I'd probably run him alongside my Lord and Knight hammer-combo up one flank.

As an aside, if I swapped the Sword of Anti-Heroes for the Sword of Might, I could fit both Lord choices in a 3000pt list....

Pirog
05-02-2013, 21:54
I haven't got the hold of the new book yet, so bear with me.

I've read alot on the forums the last couple of days about so called imba DP's. But also the extremely survivable TZ flying sorceror has gotten some attention.
I have this model I use as my lord, that's always flying around by himself.

However, now what I read, I can't decide on him being a DP or a TZ lord. What do you guys say?

Could one make it simple and look at this way:
DP - Very offensive and able to bring destruction. Survivable once he get's into close combat, but can get unlucky and get sniped to death in the first couple of rounds?
TZ Lord - Almost impossible to bring down due to his rerollable ward and low armour save. But doesn't bring the same amount of killing as the DP?

For example, regarding these builds below. What would make one (me) want to pay 155pts more for the DP rather than the lord?



Daemon Prince (550pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Chaos Armour, Lvl4 (Tzeentch)
Scaled Skin
Soul Feeder
Flaming Breath
Poisonous Slime
Dragon Helm
The Other Tricksters Shard

Summary: 1+/5++ (re-rolling 1++) flying monster with poisoned attacks, an S4 flaming template and the ability to regenerate wounds on a 6+ for each wound caused. Forces models in base contact to re-roll successful ward saves.

Chaos Lord (395pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Disk of Tzeentch
Soul Feeder
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Flaming Breath
Talisman of Preservation
Enchanted Shield
Sword of Anti-Heroes
The Other Tricksters Shard

Summary: 1+/3++ (re-rolling 1++) flyer with an S4 flaming template and the ability to regenerate wounds on a 6+ for each wound caused. 5 S5 attacks, with both S and A increasing by +1 for each enemy character in the unit he is in base contact with, plus 3 S4 flaming attacks from the Disk. Forces models in base contact to re-roll successful ward saves.

lordlorien
05-02-2013, 22:09
For example, regarding these builds below. What would make one (me) want to pay 155pts more for the DP rather than the lord?

The fact that for those 155 pts more your daemon prince is also a lvl 4 sorcerer, maybe ;). The main charm of the DP is IMO that you can field a combat lord and a lvl 4 Mage at the same time in games below 3k points. With chaos lord and sorcerer that simply is not possible.

Pirog
05-02-2013, 22:13
Ah true. And why not a chaos sorcerer lvl 4?

And also, when I get the hold of the book, I guess I'll have to check the magic powers available to that DP. :)

lordlorien
05-02-2013, 22:31
All three are good choices. Sorcerer has the disadvantage of not having that super awesome stat line. If I could I would take the two single characters in a list but do that and add in the BSB and you already spent lotsa points for characters. Since our units are also great I do not want to spent that many points on 3-4 characters. In my new list the DP and BSB already come out at 815 points.

JDV311
06-02-2013, 01:15
Got a quick question about Throgg (my book won't be delivered till tomorrow GGRRRRR). If Throgg is NOT the general would it be able to pass the general's LD (due to inspiring presence) to the monsterous elements of the army if Throgg is within 18" inches?

Lex
06-02-2013, 02:05
Got a quick question about Throgg (my book won't be delivered till tomorrow GGRRRRR). If Throgg is NOT the general would it be able to pass the general's LD (due to inspiring presence) to the monsterous elements of the army if Throgg is within 18" inches?
Yes, he can. Throgg is great for that, especially given the low Ld of the new beasties.

Althwen
06-02-2013, 09:30
Righty, I've had a sit down and tinker with some potential Lord builds for my Tzeentch themed armies.
The Daemon Prince probably won't be used, as it is a bit too much of a hybrid fighter/caster (doing neither as well as the mortal versions listed below it) and maybe too many eggs in a single basket.
Feel free to criticise.

Here goes:

Daemon Prince (550pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Chaos Armour, Lvl4 (Tzeentch)
Scaled Skin
Soul Feeder
Flaming Breath
Poisonous Slime
Dragon Helm
The Other Tricksters Shard

Summary: 1+/5++ (re-rolling 1++) flying monster with poisoned attacks, an S4 flaming template and the ability to regenerate wounds on a 6+ for each wound caused. Forces models in base contact to re-roll successful ward saves.

Chaos Lord (395pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Disk of Tzeentch
Soul Feeder
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Flaming Breath
Talisman of Preservation
Enchanted Shield
Sword of Anti-Heroes
The Other Tricksters Shard

Summary: 1+/3++ (re-rolling 1++) flyer with an S4 flaming template and the ability to regenerate wounds on a 6+ for each wound caused. 5 S5 attacks, with both S and A increasing by +1 for each enemy character in the unit he is in base contact with, plus 3 S4 flaming attacks from the Disk. Forces models in base contact to re-roll successful ward saves. I think this guy could be the perfect all-rounder, able to take on units and characters with equal efficiency. I'd run him up a flank with my 14-strong MoT Knight bus, close enough so he would also get a LOS roll for even more protection from Cannons, etc.

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (360pts)
Mark of Tzeentch, Disk of Tzeentch, Lvl4 (Metal)
Chaos Familiar
Scaled skin
Armour of Destiny

Summary: 2+/3++ flyer. Channels on 5+ (re-rolling on 1). Uses his 5 spells from the Lore of Metal to both buff and de-buff. I'd probably run him alongside my Lord and Knight hammer-combo up one flank.

As an aside, if I swapped the Sword of Anti-Heroes for the Sword of Might, I could fit both Lord choices in a 3000pt list....



I'm stll getting to grips with the changes, but I believe your Daemon Prince isn't allowed to wear magical armour (Dragon Helm) if you want him to be able to cast his spells. Only Chaos armour allows you to do both. So I'd take the scaly skin to stack up to a nice armour save.

However, I believe the debate is still going on this.
I for one am going to play it conservatively until I'm convinced it's allowed.

I believe the ASF sword from the BRB is 25pts, isn't it? That would make a nice addition to a DP. More hits is better chance you'll get those 6's you need to regenerate.

Ny Nurgle DP would look like this:
Level 3 - Lore of Nurgle
Mark of Nurgle
Wings
Chaos Armour
Scaly skin gift
Flame breath
Soul Feeder
ASF sword from BRB

-Definetly get the Nurgle Sig spell for maximum flame template coverage. And with 3 levels you might find yourself with a boosted T and W value at the end of the game.
He's also sporting some decent defence with his -1 to hit in CC, a 2+ and 5++ and the possibility to regenerate wounds on all of his normal attacks, breath weapon attack and thunder stomp!

Xerkics
06-02-2013, 11:45
And chaos armour in this case is different from magic armour how? Why would it prevent spellcasting exactly?

Althwen
06-02-2013, 11:54
And chaos armour in this case is different from magic armour how? Why would it prevent spellcasting exactly?

because it says under Chaos Armour: "...A Wizard can wear Chaos Armour and still cast spells." ?

I wasn't aware that all magical equipment came with this unwritten rule. And I believe it doesn't.

Xerkics
06-02-2013, 11:59
It doesnt stop ogre spellcasting in armour, im pretty sure chaos armour isnt exclusive here sorcerors can cast in armour in general.

myrsnipe
06-02-2013, 12:09
because it says under Chaos Armour: "...A Wizard can wear Chaos Armour and still cast spells." ?

I wasn't aware that all magical equipment came with this unwritten rule. And I believe it doesn't.
Any wizard that wears armor, or has the option of wearing armor, can cast spells while wearing it. Casting spells while wearing armor is an ability granted by the wizards profile, cruddace just felt like reminding you in the chaos armor profile

Althwen
06-02-2013, 12:10
It doesnt stop ogre spellcasting in armour, im pretty sure chaos armour isnt exclusive here sorcerors can cast in armour in general.

That indeed seems to be the case.
I still wonder why someone would feel the need to add that wizards can cast spells when wearing chaos armour, when it is not the kind of armour that decides whether a wizard can cast or not, but whether he has access to any type of armour in general or not.

Edit: Ninja'd :)
And once again the experience of multiple Warhammer editions comes round to bite me in the ass. Everything seems to get muddier and muddier as the editions progress.

N1AK
06-02-2013, 12:41
But hey call me a sinic.

I'd prefer to call you a cynic, what with it being a real word, and it actually fits well if that view is representative of your general beliefs: A person who believes that only selfishness motivates human actions and who disbelieves in or minimizes selfless acts or disinterested points of view.

I've seen no evidence of some plot by GW to use errata to manipulate sales; in fact I think even the rare examples that might be proffered as evidence are dubious at best and definitely don't form a compelling argument.

N1AK
06-02-2013, 12:46
Mounts do not gain an additional attack from rage. Page 82 under the heading "Cavalry and Special Rules" (at least in the German rulebook). Therefore I'm pretty sure the horses pulling a chariot (and the chariot itself) will not gain an extra attack if the rider/charioteer has rage.

I might be wrong, but I've never seen it played otherwise. And I know my usual opponents would only laugh at me and say "nice try" if I'd suggest the horses would also profit from rage.

That isn't what the rule says so why post it here? There is nothing to stop mounts from having frenzy however a rider with frezy no longer passes it to their mount; that is not the same thing at all. The Mark of Khorne gives the model Frenzy and the mount is part of the model, if it gave the exalted champion, the chaos knights etc frenzy then it wouldn't transfer to a mount. GW may well errata it though.

Ayin
06-02-2013, 14:14
The idea for MoK to give mounts frenzy in ADDITION to thier riders, as opposed to the riders passing the mark on to their mounts, has made sense to me for a long time, but until someone from GW comes out and says it explicitly does, I just cannot bring myself to play it that way. I've never gotten into a rules argument about it, but it just seems very counter-intuitive to me. A Lord of Chaos is marked by Khorne, and it does not transfer to his monstrous mount, which is not similarly blessed by the god. A Knight of Khorne is marked by Khorne, and he gets one for his horse as well because marks are on sale. Wouldn't fault anyone for playing it that way though.

MyNameDidntFit
06-02-2013, 14:25
Anyone figured out a use for the Daemonsword yet? Or is it to languish forever?

I used to use it as my staple but now it seems worthless--on average you get +1/2 attacks in return for hitting yourself... and yes, I know that answers my own question, but I'm clutching at straws here...

Xerkics
06-02-2013, 14:33
I think the daemon sword is meant to be for sorc lord with 3+ ward save as he d only have 3 attacks normally and could have maxed out his magic items

Ravenfeld
06-02-2013, 15:11
Does anyone have any insight into how effective large blocks of unmarked Marauders would be in this edition? And how much of a hit would one take to slap on a mark of nurgle? I am making a fantasy chaos army based around a cult, so marauders would represent my cultists, thus making up the majority of my core. I want to make sure its still effective for its points!

Thanks,
Raven

Shadow_Steed
06-02-2013, 18:08
What do you guys think would be a good unit size for a warrior unit with Festus in it. I am thinking:

6x 3, full command, halbers or great weapons. + Festus.

Trustey
06-02-2013, 19:16
What do you guys think would be a good unit size for a warrior unit with Festus in it. I am thinking:

6x 3, full command, halbers or great weapons. + Festus.

10 with FC, BSB on Palanquin, Festus in 2nd row :D

Halberds or AHW, not GW.

XXXXX
PPFXX
PPCSM

Azmodian
06-02-2013, 19:18
I haven't been able to get the book because its sold out "grumble grumble" but one thing I've been hoping for is the MoN is better than it was, can anyone give me a hint as to what it now does?

Dada
06-02-2013, 20:01
10 with FC, BSB on Palanquin, Festus in 2nd row :D

Halberds or AHW, not GW.

XXXXX
PPFXX
PPCSM


I've been thinking about the same thing :D BsB on palanquin, festus on the second rank in a Warrior unit with AHW. Gona be the centerpiece of my army. Having 2 units of trolls flanking the block and giving them festus' ld 9 from the unit (adding the LD banner to the warriors) and the BsB re-roll for em'. If i get lucky with spells and getting bubble regen <3 = regen 4+ warriors and 3+ trolls. Saving also points on the BsB coz i dont need to buy a ward save for him since festus gives the regen to him also. Units gona have 15 warriors --> 5x4

XXPPX
XFPPX
XXXXX

lordlorien
06-02-2013, 21:08
I haven't been able to get the book because its sold out "grumble grumble" but one thing I've been hoping for is the MoN is better than it was, can anyone give me a hint as to what it now does?

-1 to hit in close combat for the enemy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Leth Shyish'phak
06-02-2013, 22:19
As soon as someone smacks that warrior unit's champion in the face, Festus is going to have to step forward to the front rank. He isn't going to be safe for very long.

Dada
06-02-2013, 23:14
Well i got an exalted with 4xstr5 & 6xstr3 poison attacks standing on 4 wounds with 2+ save and 5+ regen to smack guys for challenges. Lol and the warrior champ ain't no wussy, he's got 4xstr4 poison attacks with 4+ armor and 5+ regen with I5. He's not gona go down if the challenger is a other champ or even in some cases a hero lvl char...

The Great Flaming Odin
06-02-2013, 23:18
Well i got an exalted with 4xstr5 & 6xstr3 poison attacks standing on 4 wounds with 2+ save and 5+ regen to smack guys for challenges. Lol and the warrior champ ain't no wussy, he's got 4xstr4 poison attacks with 4+ armor and 5+ regen with I5. He's not gona go down if the challenger is a other champ or even in some cases a hero lvl char...

The problem with that is you are able to specifically target champions in combat, no challenge required.

Dada
06-02-2013, 23:26
But i can always accept with the exalted if needed....

The Great Flaming Odin
06-02-2013, 23:30
But i can always accept with the exalted if needed....

you can allocate attacks from your rank and file onto a unit champ, no challenge required. Don't have the BRB on me right now but I'll quote it later. So we fight, you issue a challenge with your exalted, I accept with my unit champ (or decline if no characters in the unit) then I allocate attacks to your unit champ, kill him, fetus moves to the front and is exposed.

Dada
06-02-2013, 23:32
aah ok now i dig what u mean :D

Trustey
07-02-2013, 00:01
As soon as someone smacks that warrior unit's champion in the face, Festus is going to have to step forward to the front rank. He isn't going to be safe for very long.

That's just something you'd have to deal with regardless and something every other armies wizard deals w too.


Just realized, no more poison attack rule on palanquins. Replaced w Daemonic attacks.

Azmodian
07-02-2013, 00:12
-1 to hit in close combat for the enemy.

Thank you Kindly

Hallock
07-02-2013, 00:43
I just read the tactica on the slaanesh spells. In the Hysterical frenzy you said that if you cast it on a character in a unit without a champion the character cannot refuse the challenge. Where is this rule found?

thanks

The Great Flaming Odin
07-02-2013, 01:54
Where is this slaaneshi spell tactica?

MyNameDidntFit
07-02-2013, 03:07
First page of this thread. Though I don't believe Frenzy forces you to accept challenges...

/Edit: also, looking through your Tactica, I can't believe you've overlooked the Chimera as a flying answer to T3 hordes... with a 20" fly you can almost always line up 25+ hits from that S4 breath weapon on a horde. Goodbye Spearman blocks, goodbye Night Goblin hordes, goodbye Empire infantry Hordes, and so on. For 275 they fly, have regen, an S4 breath weapon and do 6+d3+d6 S6 hits in CC. Just don't go wasting that breath weapon in CC unless you desperately need to.

Oh, and combine that with Phantasmagoria and you're likely to see whatever is left of the horde (including, say, that DE Sorceress or HE Mage) run off the board

RuneGrey
07-02-2013, 04:52
Hmmm. I wonder how many fire breath attacks you can get in a 2500 point army...

About 11 or so, it seems. 8 spawn to fill up your entire rare allotment, and then 2 or 3 Chimera and a Lord with some manner of fire breath, either from a Dragon or from the gift. Fill up core to taste.

Akkaryn
07-02-2013, 05:58
You can't have that many spawn. Rare choices are limited to 2. I do believe they've also removed the 2 spawn per choice rule. So we can only get 2.

VampireOrcElf
07-02-2013, 06:51
You can't have that many spawn. Rare choices are limited to 2. I do believe they've also removed the 2 spawn per choice rule. So we can only get 2.

if you play 3000+ u can take 4

Lord Solar Plexus
07-02-2013, 07:06
Does anyone have any insight into how effective large blocks of unmarked Marauders would be in this edition? And how much of a hit would one take to slap on a mark of nurgle? I am making a fantasy chaos army based around a cult, so marauders would represent my cultists, thus making up the majority of my core. I want to make sure its still effective for its points!


Both are decent. Several factors come into play, such as width of both units, starting numbers, casualties suffered etc. etc. but let's assume 40 Marauders vs 40 Empire Halberdiers both 10 wide = 8.3 : 10. That's not enough of a difference to make the former outright bad; the outcome will in any case depend on who gets what buffs and supports of. Since the Halberdiers strike last, the fight evens out in the second round and from here on, Marauders start to win. Any opponent I3 or less could potentially lose attacks in the first round.

The same Marauders with MoN kill the same 8.3 and suffer 6.67 wounds in return. There's only 30 of them if you invest the same points but they suddenly win straight away (again, buffs can decide this either way). However, less bodies means you're more likely to lose the second round, and you will have less ranks.

To me that looks like a pretty fair fight - and this is where tactics come in instead of just pushing units around. Both will benefit muchly from support, any support, be it a BSB, a WP, a mage or whatnot. A unit of dogs or Pistoliers could completely alter the outcome and so on and so on.


10 with FC, BSB on Palanquin, Festus in 2nd row :D

Halberds or AHW, not GW.

XXXXX
PPFXX
PPCSM

How do you get Festus AND the BSB in the second row?

Morkash
07-02-2013, 07:21
(...) then I allocate attacks to your unit champ, kill him, fetus moves to the front and is exposed.

Theoretically a nice idea and if you think about it it would make perfect sense to be played this way. However characters do not have to go to the first rank as soon as "place gets free" when for example the champion dies. A character has to move to the front if he joins a unit and there's place in the front rank. If the character already is in the unit and places gets freed up in the front rank it is not stated that he has to move in the front rank. In Austria this is something which usually gets specified in FAQs released a few weeks prior to a tournament, usually that this is indeed allowed and legal.

I do not have the BRB near me either so I cannot quote directly, but this is a very common tactic in Ogre armies for example. Take full command and any combat character in the first rank (assuming 4 wide) and you can hide the BSB/Butcher in the second rank safely for the whole game. I can also imagine this working for WoC.

inq.serge
07-02-2013, 07:39
I just read the tactica on the slaanesh spells. In the Hysterical frenzy you said that if you cast it on a character in a unit without a champion the character cannot refuse the challenge. Where is this rule found?

thanks

Frenzy makes things ItP. ItP Characters, IIRC, may not decline challenges.

Kalandros
07-02-2013, 08:24
ItP Characters, IIRC, may not decline challenges.

Never heard of such a rule, ever.

inq.serge
07-02-2013, 08:32
Never heard of such a rule, ever.

Just looked it up. It's removed, there was such a rule back in 6th/7th Ed. Fixed it.

Anyhow: If anyone has a good tactic/Summary/Build* for a spell, item or unit feel free to share it, and I'll add it to the summary.

*Preferably non-character builds. There's tonnes of easily accessible character builds in this thread already, and I'll add some of them later.

Althwen
07-02-2013, 08:35
Never heard of such a rule, ever.

Me neither.


Played my first game yesterday and all I can say about it is that a Dark Elf avoidance and shoot army, can still out-avoid and shoot ya to pieces.

I ran with:

Nurgle DP lvl 3
Tzeentch BSB
17 Chaos warriors of Tzeentch
Chariot of Khorne
5 marauder horsemen - flails
6 hounds (had 6 points to spare)
Chimera (full upgrades)
5 knights of Khorne - ensorcelled wpns.
Giant of Nurgle

I really wanted to include the giant now that it seemed affordable, but it still got shot to pieces of course.
And I seemed unable to make any of my charges. Admittedly they all required a roll above 9, but with quichstride I should have made some.

Anyway, no big conclusions, only that Dark Elves played in a small, fast and elite way, still can't be caught. No matter how many flying monsters you bring to the table :)

BlackPawl
07-02-2013, 08:44
How do you get Festus AND the BSB in the second row?

The palanquine is on a large base, so with 3 other modells you have it 5 wide and can keep another model in the 2nd rank. Would be the same as with a skaven on warlitter, FC - can keep the GS in the second rank.



Theoretically a nice idea and if you think about it it would make perfect sense to be played this way. However characters do not have to go to the first rank as soon as "place gets free" when for example the champion dies. A character has to move to the front if he joins a unit and there's place in the front rank. If the character already is in the unit and places gets freed up in the front rank it is not stated that he has to move in the front rank. In Austria this is something which usually gets specified in FAQs released a few weeks prior to a tournament, usually that this is indeed allowed and legal.

I do not have the BRB near me either so I cannot quote directly, but this is a very common tactic in Ogre armies for example. Take full command and any combat character in the first rank (assuming 4 wide) and you can hide the BSB/Butcher in the second rank safely for the whole game. I can also imagine this working for WoC.

But it was adressed in the FAQ (page 10 - characters) - you must move your character in the first rank as soon as there a place get free. No more "character bunking" the whole game long ...

BlackPawl
07-02-2013, 09:42
[
4 Slicing Shards
Stand alone? Slightly better than meh. D6 hits, 2d6 if your lucky. Good but not all that. If you cast phantasmagoria on same unit, then it's better. Add in treason of tzeentch, for more power. And Doom and Darkness if you want it to shine. The more spells you invest in the attack, the better it gets, but can you afford it, or rather, is it worth it? However, Phantasmagoria + Slicing shards could easily destroy an unit of zombies or skeletons outside of their General-bubble with ease. (same goes for other low LD unit)



What's that? The spell is good if you get three other great spells through in the same magic phase?
And from three different lores? And no dispel from the enemy?

The chance is better to get the -1d3 T spell from the shodow lore AND dwellers from below on the same unit!

inq.serge
07-02-2013, 10:44
What's that? The spell is good if you get three other great spells through in the same magic phase?
And from three different lores? And no dispel from the enemy?

The chance is better to get the -1d3 T spell from the shodow lore AND dwellers from below on the same unit!

Yeah. That's the point. It's very dependant on other spells. The question is: "Is it worth it?", The answer is, most likely: "NO!"

Lord Solar Plexus
07-02-2013, 10:47
The palanquine is on a large base, so with 3 other modells you have it 5 wide and can keep another model in the 2nd rank. Would be the same as with a skaven on warlitter, FC - can keep the GS in the second rank.


The diagram looks as if there are 6 normal models in the front rank, and he stated he would like to run them 6 wide. Three command models leave enough room for both characters, and if the unit is only 5 wide, there should still be room for the Palanquin (which in the diagram is in the second rank as well).

BlackPawl
07-02-2013, 11:23
The diagram looks as if there are 6 normal models in the front rank, and he stated he would like to run them 6 wide. Three command models leave enough room for both characters, and if the unit is only 5 wide, there should still be room for the Palanquin (which in the diagram is in the second rank as well).

For me it seems like 5 wide - the bsb on Palanquin will be 4 spaces (two in the first and two in the second rank), so you have the command group in the first rank, festus, two normal troops in the second rank (the other two spots are the bsb on palanquin), so the other 5 troopers in the last rank as shown. With 6 wide it would not go ...

Lord Solar Plexus
07-02-2013, 11:44
Ah, now I see he's placed the command on the bottom! Light blue and the bright forum skin I use don't go well together.

inq.serge
07-02-2013, 11:51
First page of this thread. Though I don't believe Frenzy forces you to accept challenges...

/Edit: also, looking through your Tactica, I can't believe you've overlooked the Chimera as a flying answer to T3 hordes... with a 20" fly you can almost always line up 25+ hits from that S4 breath weapon on a horde. Goodbye Spearman blocks, goodbye Night Goblin hordes, goodbye Empire infantry Hordes, and so on. For 275 they fly, have regen, an S4 breath weapon and do 6+d3+d6 S6 hits in CC. Just don't go wasting that breath weapon in CC unless you desperately need to.

Oh, and combine that with Phantasmagoria and you're likely to see whatever is left of the horde (including, say, that DE Sorceress or HE Mage) run off the board

Thanks, I'll add it.

Galley
07-02-2013, 14:17
Getting back to the idea of creature feature armies - has anyone experimented with Chaos Ogres? Back in the previous edition I typically ran trolls, now thinking of making the switch to ogres. Expensive to be sure, but a block of 6+ with MoK and GW would certainly be much scarier than trolls with extra hand weapons, even against heavy armor units like "generic knight"; especially considering that you're getting around faster army (well, everyone else) initiative advantages due to charging impact hits.

Ravenfeld
07-02-2013, 14:39
Both are decent. Several factors come into play, such as width of both units, starting numbers, casualties suffered etc. etc. but let's assume 40 Marauders vs 40 Empire Halberdiers both 10 wide = 8.3 : 10. That's not enough of a difference to make the former outright bad; the outcome will in any case depend on who gets what buffs and supports of. Since the Halberdiers strike last, the fight evens out in the second round and from here on, Marauders start to win. Any opponent I3 or less could potentially lose attacks in the first round.

The same Marauders with MoN kill the same 8.3 and suffer 6.67 wounds in return. There's only 30 of them if you invest the same points but they suddenly win straight away (again, buffs can decide this either way). However, less bodies means you're more likely to lose the second round, and you will have less ranks.

To me that looks like a pretty fair fight - and this is where tactics come in instead of just pushing units around. Both will benefit muchly from support, any support, be it a BSB, a WP, a mage or whatnot. A unit of dogs or Pistoliers could completely alter the outcome and so on and so on.

Thank you sir, you're a scholar and a gentleman. I actually thought my post got washed away by the three question posts that followed it, so I appreciate you picking it up.

My concept revolves around a cult that worships a daemon prince that embodies hatred. That theme is going to carry over to a daemon army, a beastman army, and potentially a 40k Chaos army as well as time and money permit. That being said, I wanted to start with Warriors and really get the cultists down. With that in mind I wanted to have at the very least two large blocks of marauders, a few decent units of hounds, forsaken and a choice (and limited) selection of warrior models. I also was going to lean towards the use of Ogres, Warshrines & Chosen as my special choices with Spawn as my rare choice. For my leadership I was hoping to have one solid sorc lord, one solid combat lord (not to be used simultaneously, of course), a bsb, and possibly a smattering of lesser sorcerers & champions. I am on the fence whether I want to give the worshipped Daemon Prince a physical representation, or leave it as an entity of fluff.

I originally was going to make the army Mono-Nurgle, but have since reconsidered and am now looking to encompass a wide range of negative emotion, but I still can't help but feel that when it comes to Marks, Nurgle will be one of the most common in the army. So, when it comes to Marking the units I listed above, what choices would you make, and why?

Thanks in advance,
Raven

Danny76
07-02-2013, 15:13
-1 to hit in close combat for the enemy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

MoN still carries the +1T though right?

Trustey
07-02-2013, 15:22
MoN still carries the +1T though right?

MoN is a just -1 to hit in CC.

After successfully casting a Lore of Nurgle spell roll a d6, if you get a 6 add 1 wound and 1 T to the caster for the rest of the game... that's the only place I see this +1 T you could be talking about.

Ravenfeld
07-02-2013, 15:25
In 40k I believe it bestows +1 T.

Trustey
07-02-2013, 16:30
So the Scaled Skin mutation is cumulative with Chaos Armor and it still allows you to take a magic shield or helm. This makes it really easy to max Armor Save on pretty much any character.
I really like what they did with Chaos Familiar too, I thought the Spell Familiar was the most beneficial one from the previous book, and the +1 to channeling is sweet.

lordlorien
07-02-2013, 16:55
MoN still carries the +1T though right?

We are square basers and not round ;). MoN never gave (at least since I play WoC) +1T. Overall MoN got better in the new book IMO even though the -1 hit from shooting is gone. But than again Chaos Armor and shields help against most ballistic skill shooting well enough.

Danny76
07-02-2013, 17:12
Ah of course, I think I am combining RoundBase with that lore attribute.

Indeed a 3+ vs shooting is fine thats if they hist and wound.
So in combat a minus 1 to hit and then that same 3+ save (+parry), yeah I'm good with that..

Ayin
07-02-2013, 17:39
Many Chaos moons ago, MoN granted Fear, i do believe, which was very fluffy, but considering the rollercoaster Fear has had the last three editions, the current concept is probably better.

So, assuming you are not going to give it magic levels, what can one aim to accomplish with a flying Demon Prince? I am considering one over a combat lord because I feel that the movement might be extremely helpful to an army composed of comparatively slow infnatry and cavalry.

Additionally, what is the general feeling with characters now? The reason I ask is that previously I just could not bring myself to invest in more than the bare minimum since a single Exalted with equipment (in 7th) and two wounds could buy me a small unit (and ten wounds) of warriors, and he seemed to bring nothing to the table otherwise. Now, does anyone else share this view, or has the new book changed that for anyone? Is a 300pt lord actually worth an entire unit of warriors, or does he need to bring something besides hitting power? That is the reason I am considering a Demon Prince, even more expensive, but flight could really bring something useful that more warriors simply can't.

Von Wibble
07-02-2013, 18:13
4th edition MoN gave +1T. I think 5th edition may also have.

Trustey
07-02-2013, 19:00
Many Chaos moons ago, MoN granted Fear, i do believe, which was very fluffy, but considering the rollercoaster Fear has had the last three editions, the current concept is probably better.

So, assuming you are not going to give it magic levels, what can one aim to accomplish with a flying Demon Prince? I am considering one over a combat lord because I feel that the movement might be extremely helpful to an army composed of comparatively slow infnatry and cavalry.

Additionally, what is the general feeling with characters now? The reason I ask is that previously I just could not bring myself to invest in more than the bare minimum since a single Exalted with equipment (in 7th) and two wounds could buy me a small unit (and ten wounds) of warriors, and he seemed to bring nothing to the table otherwise. Now, does anyone else share this view, or has the new book changed that for anyone? Is a 300pt lord actually worth an entire unit of warriors, or does he need to bring something besides hitting power? That is the reason I am considering a Demon Prince, even more expensive, but flight could really bring something useful that more warriors simply can't.


Well WoC isn't as slow as it used to be, but still the Demon Prince is looking like a lot of fun. Flying and optimally lining up the optional breath weapon could be painful. And you don't have to max a combat lord to level 4 but a single spell level to get off a signature spell might help you out somewhere.

Ayin
07-02-2013, 19:28
And you don't have to max a combat lord to level 4 but a single spell level to get off a signature spell might help you out somewhere.

Indeed, and eventually I will have a reasonable plan but right now I am playing around with all red, no magic :)

I would love to field a lord on something, like a juggernaught, but he doesn't really bring anything the rest of the army doesn't already do, I mean, is he better than what, three Skullcrushers? And I would consider a Manticore, but then I can't hold units up in combat, since it is so vulnerable to attack.

Doommasters
07-02-2013, 20:56
What does everyone think about chaos spawns with breath weapons and unbreakable on the flanks? Less than 80pts and they could do a good job of clearing chaff on the flanks even with random movement.

myrsnipe
07-02-2013, 22:14
What does everyone think about chaos spawns with breath weapons and unbreakable on the flanks? Less than 80pts and they could do a good job of clearing chaff on the flanks even with random movement.

I think the issue with the spawn is still the random movement, it's hard to line up a good breath, and if you have to use it in close combat, you do it at initiative order and might it be dead before it gets to use its breath. I have no experience with it tough, actuall hands on experience from someone might tell otherwise.

Lord Solar Plexus
08-02-2013, 05:07
I think it could be a fun little random element. 50 or 70 points doesn't break a budget either way. I predict that the Spawn will usually trundle behind because it's so awfully slow it could have been a Dwarf in its previous life but you never know.

Morkyerme
08-02-2013, 07:13
I have been thinking about my anvil unit, will it be Warriors with mark of nurgle and Halberd/or shield? or mark of tzeentch unit with shields? I have 18 nurgle warriors and 20 tzeentch warriors. Also I can't decide the formation.

And one bigger question, do you guys think that ogres are more viable with the new book out? And even if they are, are they viable enough? compared to lets say Dragon Ogres for an example? They hit hard and with many attacks in a unit of 6 with great weapons and mark of khorne, but is 6 enough?

Althwen
08-02-2013, 07:21
What does everyone think about chaos spawns with breath weapons and unbreakable on the flanks? Less than 80pts and they could do a good job of clearing chaff on the flanks even with random movement.

I only used them two editions back when the Mark of Slaanesh gave them 3D6 random movement. Their ability to ' charge' 360 degrees is awesome. But with the removal of the 3rd D6 I don't take them anymore.

I can't really justify their use. It's not like with other armies that you don't want small units behind your lines. I mean, it's still not optimal, but they don't really threaten our tough guys' flanks or rears.
Now you really don't want a big, nast unit in your flank or rear... but then, what is a Spawn gonna do to prevent that?
They're not half as tough as they used to be, and if I were to charge a strong unit threatening my flanks or rear out of desperation, I would almost certainly be giving my opponent a free reform after they'd have killed the thing. Because T5 just ain't all that.

LordKrell
08-02-2013, 08:17
I have been thinking about my anvil unit, will it be Warriors with mark of nurgle and Halberd/or shield? or mark of tzeentch unit with shields? I have 18 nurgle warriors and 20 tzeentch warriors. Also I can't decide the formation.

Firstly, Tzeentch warriors with shields are cheaper, so they play better as an anvil, as you can fill more ranks. Nurgle + shield is quite the same but don't take halberds. Don't know what mathhammers will say about what is better a -1 to hit or a 5+ ward save... but both fit the role

Formation for an anvil should be ranks of 5 in small units, you want as many ranks as possible. 4x5 or 3x5 + 3 it's pretty much the same.


And one bigger question, do you guys think that ogres are more viable with the new book out? And even if they are, are they viable enough? compared to lets say Dragon Ogres for an example? They hit hard and with many attacks in a unit of 6 with great weapons and mark of khorne, but is 6 enough?

Yes they are much better and viable for sure, but they also have more competition in the special slot, there are cheaper trolls, and dragon ogres etc. I think 6 is enough for small battles but at 2k or more I would say 8 or 10. They have +1S on their impact hits when chargin for every rank, so again, even if the better formation would be ranks of 4, take at least seven or more above 2000pts...

Another related question is, can marauders be used as a cheaper anvil than warriors? I'm talking about the bus of 30 or more, with mark of tzeentch and shields, or unmarked with festus, or simply unmarked... I mean they are quite soft, but still, the ranks can provide stubborn against smaller units, as the other hard-hitters come to fight... thoughts??

Althwen
08-02-2013, 09:49
Maybe Marauders with Hw/s and mark of Nurgle/Tzeentch will be able to function as an anvil. Especially if you have a sorceror with the lore of Nurgle and you're able to either boost their Toughness or grant them a 5+ regen. You'll need to babysit them though.

In my opinion the mark of Tzeentch is still the best if you want to sword and board as an anvil. The -1 or +1 ward save may lead to similar results when mathhammering, but keep in mind that the -1 to hit in CC doesn't affect attacks outside combat, and it doesn't even affect all attacks in CC. Stomps/thunderstomps/impact hits are all fairly common and eventhough the parry save isn't allowed against stomps, you'll still be sitting on a 6++, which is more than the -1 to hit which is bypassed altogether.

I think that a lvl 4 Nurgle sorceror with Fencer's blades, 4++ amulet, Dragon Helm and a barded Daemonic mount and spell familiar would make a very nasty caster that can look after itself. I was thinking about putting him into a unit of Dragon Ogres because the Daemonic Mount's classification is equal to that of Dragon Ogres, but then I thought: Does a Monstrous Beast automatically become Monstrous Cavalry when ridden?

inq.serge
08-02-2013, 10:18
Does a Monstrous Beast automatically become Monstrous Cavalry when ridden?

Yes, Yes it does. Just like a warbeast (I.E; Steed of Slaanesh) becomes cavalry.

Lord Solar Plexus
08-02-2013, 12:34
Firstly, Tzeentch warriors with shields are cheaper, so they play better as an anvil, as you can fill more ranks. Nurgle + shield is quite the same but don't take halberds. Don't know what mathhammers will say about what is better a -1 to hit or a 5+ ward save... but both fit the role

Just a very small quibble: MoT w/ shield are one point cheaper than MoN w/ halberds, which translates into one single warrior, not "more ranks (plural)".

LordKrell
08-02-2013, 12:38
Yes, Yes it does. Just like a warbeast (I.E; Steed of Slaanesh) becomes cavalry.

In that case, where would you get another DOgre base? I've been searching for a monstruous cavalry base (juggy's size) because I've lost one but as GW don't provide them at all I'll have to search other solutions...

Shadow_Steed
08-02-2013, 17:08
MoN still carries the +1T though right?

MoN on Giant grants +1T :)

judaism
08-02-2013, 17:49
Anyone else think that the warpflame special rule for Tzeentch casters makes the lore a terrible choice? Basically everytime you wound a unit you are giving them a 50% chance of stacking a regen save. On top of that warpflame dosen't appear to be a flaming attack.

On a side note, I'm thinking about running a multiple warshrine no caster build army. Could get deadly when you start churning out DPs. :)

Shadow_Steed
08-02-2013, 18:15
Anyone else think that the warpflame special rule for Tzeentch casters makes the lore a terrible choice? Basically everytime you wound a unit you are giving them a 50% chance of stacking a regen save. On top of that warpflame dosen't appear to be a flaming attack.


Yes, it can backfire pretty bad.

A combo I thought of is to have the Flaming Attack banner on one unit thus negating the regen. Still makes it a liability tho. :/

pointyteeth
08-02-2013, 18:18
On a side note, I'm thinking about running a multiple warshrine no caster build army. Could get deadly when you start churning out DPs. :)

I might take a level 1 as a scroll caddy.

Danny76
08-02-2013, 20:34
Yes, it can backfire pretty bad.

A combo I thought of is to have the Flaming Attack banner on one unit thus negating the regen. Still makes it a liability tho. :/

Indeed, and if you only cast the warp flame related spells at the unit your banner is heading towards, it should be even safer in game.

Gromdal
08-02-2013, 23:51
My take on the book is that MoN warriors is awesome. Give them grt weps and get awesome offense and defense. Love the tzeentch lord mounted on a steed along with bsb. Fun book

Doommasters
09-02-2013, 00:52
Would it be worth mounting an exhalted on a gorebeast chariot?

Trustey
09-02-2013, 02:25
This army book makes me want to have one of every unit and monster... except the 50 GW marauders I just finished 2 months prior.

snottlebocket
09-02-2013, 06:08
This army book makes me want to have one of every unit and monster... except the 50 GW marauders I just finished 2 months prior.

I feel the same way about all core. I've been trying and failing to make a simple 2k tourney list and I just can't find anything I'm happy with because I'm essentially wasting a quarter of my points on stuff I have no interest in fielding.

MyNameDidntFit
09-02-2013, 06:36
I might take a level 1 as a scroll caddy.
Take him on a Warshrine. That way it's in your Hero allowance and you can fit an extra one in Special!


Indeed, and if you only cast the warp flame related spells at the unit your banner is heading towards, it should be even safer in game.
But that narrows your magic phase massively. Not to mention it's pretty easily figured out after the second or third spell--your opponent then leaves all your Warpflame spells at that unit to go off and dispels the two good spells Tzeentch has, provided you were lucky enough to get them.